wbelm - Posted - 05/10/2013:  12:36:16

One guy appears to be an aggressive show-off while the other appears to be a rather reserved, and insecure player. I may be way off the mark, and was not there at the time. When the lady said that she was very careful with her banjos, she was politely saying no, back off. She may have been afraid that you were going to show off, leaving her in the dust, perhaps dominating the session.
It is her call. You seem to believe and make a case that you, being a superior musician, have the call.....by stating she has been taking lessons for 5 years, still cannot tune it, and you this extensive musical background. You may be fantastic for all I know, sometimes I can't tune my banjo.

I could not read all the post, but stupidly weighed in nevertheless. Sorry if I miss interpreted the whole deal.......You guys can jump all over me...Hey It's Friday.....Bill

David McLaughlin - Posted - 05/10/2013:  12:53:11

Hey, Bill... You want to see an aggressive show-off with a borrowed banjo, look me up on YouTube. And i even changed the strings! Lol!

BDCA - Posted - 05/10/2013:  13:20:15

quote:

---

Originally posted by wbelm

 

One guy appears to be an aggressive show-off while the other appears to be a rather reserved, and insecure player. I may be way off the mark, and was not there at the time. When the lady said that she was very careful with her banjos, she was politely saying no, back off. She may have been afraid that you were going to show off, leaving her in the dust, perhaps dominating the session.

It is her call. You seem to believe and make a case that you, being a superior musician, have the call.....by stating she has been taking lessons for 5 years, still cannot tune it, and you this extensive musical background. You may be fantastic for all I know, sometimes I can't tune my banjo.



I could not read all the post, but stupidly weighed in nevertheless. Sorry if I miss interpreted the whole deal.......You guys can jump all over me...Hey It's Friday.....Bill

---

Actually I told her that I had just gotten back to claw hammer after a 40 year break, just got my new (used) 5 string prior to leaving for Boston and only had a coupe of tunes worked up. At this point I assumed she was expert with the fancy Bart Reiter Dobson, and I'm the guy with  a Chinese  Recording King back home. I was humble and respectful,  expecting to hear some really good CH banjo. I also asked her all about the music store where she purchased it (where I am heading tomorrow) and what she paid (she couldn't remember). After all that I said about my self and playing Irish tenor she asked me if I had ever bought a banjo before.I thought that was a bit strange. All in all the situation was plain weird, and probably went unnoticed my most.

Cya!

Bob

wbelm - Posted - 05/10/2013:  14:01:12

Bob, that does sound weird......was this a grown woman? Sounds like a shy young girl. Does sound bizarre.
Oh well I have had worse jam session happening than that.
A marriage made in heaven. Call her and ask her out.

Had it been me, I would have jerked the 5 string from her hands and kicked of Duelin' Banjos....Bill

captbanjo - Posted - 05/10/2013:  14:32:59

Anyway Bob, hope your revitalized clawhammering works out. I looooove CH.

Wayne

J-Walk - Posted - 05/10/2013:  14:38:55

Based on what I heard at last week's jam in Tucson, Bob has nothing to worry about in terms of getting back into clawhammer playing. To him, it's like riding a bicycle.

wbelm - Posted - 05/10/2013:  14:45:05

I am happy for Bob

maryzcox - Posted - 05/10/2013:  17:15:08

quote:

---

Originally posted by BDCA

 

When you visit Tucson J-Walk runs a great OT session and you would be more than welcome to stay at my place.

 

Cya!

Bob

former Vienna and Roanoke resident

Will you be changing the strings on his banjo for him ? 

maryzcox - Posted - 05/10/2013:  18:07:58

Seriously Bob, if you talked to this women a long time before the jam, even if you were being friendly to play her banjo -- she may have thought you were trying to pick her up  If she didn't have a husband, son, brother, or good male friend to run interference for her-- she may have been scared of you  

BDCA - Posted - 05/10/2013:  19:15:58

No Mary, I was just being friendly. remember I thought she was a killer musician based on her beautiful banjo. I have run Irish sessions myself and always try to encourage new members and starting musicians and there was absolutely no hitting on this person but I did lust after her banjo! I have been attending this jam since it started, when I am in Boston.

BTW, I bought my Ne Plus Ultra based on your 2008 reviews and video. Great bang for the buck but I REALLY liked that Reiter. I'm also a former Floridian...

Cya!

Bob

Edited by - BDCA on 05/10/2013 19:23:57

banjoak - Posted - 05/11/2013:  01:37:26

quote:

---

Originally posted by blockader

 

I don't know how it works in Boston or Arizona (I imagine probably about the same way), but here in the South if you ask someone for something and they respond in the negative in a polite way that skirts the directness of just saying "No" you would do best to keep from continuing to bother or bully them into saying "Yes." Which is what it sounds like you were doing to her.

---

Never understood that whole indirect game - what the heck is impolite to just say "no" - and some how more polite to skirt around with indirectness?

Some folks like to play bizarre games at jams involving giving and interpreting coded words and tacit gestures, body language, facial expressions, where folks set their chair, if a circle looks closed, which direction folks point their instruments, and various other aspects about making assumptions in being welcomed into a jam, and music ability. They did/said " x"- (and/or didn't do/say "y") so in this game of reading the signs, between the lines; it is interpreted/assumed that means their real intent was x. (and then labeling those folks as rude!) -

IMO, that lady replied in a way that expressed being careful with her instruments, which isn't "no" - it's maybe - maybe based on conditional (being careful, or something else) or after she sizes the other person up as to how careful they would be. It would not be bullying to ask later; (especially considering the being entrusted to change string and tune it).

blockader - Posted - 05/11/2013:  06:11:51

Banjoak, i think "the indirect game" results from people having different levels of confidence and comfort and also (unfortunately) social standing. I think that an open traditional music session is a perfect example of ALL those Factors! And i don't think its a game at all, politeness is a mechanism that generally allows humans to interact with one another peaceably. I also tend to be fairly direct, but i get why others aren't.

Also, i wasn't trying to imply that the South was different, though my poor wording  certainly gives that impression. When i put in parentheses that i thought boston and arizona worked about the same, i meant about the same as the South, not as each other. I just don't have much experience elsewhere so i couldn't say not knowing. Actually, i'd say the mountain South tends to be more direct than the lowlands, probably because the lowland areas had more historical hierarchical inequalities that favored politeness.

anyhow, "bullying" was not the best word for me to use, i should have stuck to "bothering". The whole situation seems to be two very different people not interacting well. Its a shame you encounter all those games at jams, i haven't experienced that. 

Justin

BDCA - Posted - 05/11/2013:  06:29:26

Justin, I have to disagree. I think there is a radical difference between The South and Arizona (mostly Yankees from the rust belt and refugees from California), Boston and Brooklyn, NY, where the player was from. As I mentioned it is even "worse" in Ireland where you can make a date , say for lunch or a session, the following day, but you both know neither will be there. It's always easier to say yes than no, and when both parties share the system, no harm done.

One last point about the banjo player that came to mind this morning. She had an impressive array of stickers on her case including Elderly Music and a number of festivals, that again led me to believe she was a pro. She had said she was the original owner, so I am still at a total loss. Anyone her seeing her arrive with her bump case emblazoned with stickers and then watched the Reiter Bacophone (not a Dobson ring as I had thought) emerge would probably made the same initial assumptions I did..She is an experienced, well traveled, possibly professional and I am going to be able to learn something. The fact that none of that was true is part of the bizarre nature of the whole thing.

Looks are deceiving. While I was waiting for the Tucson - Phoenix Airport shuttle, I guy was dropped off, covered head to toe in tattoos he was huge as well and I took him for some prison gang member. With my luck he was last on the shuttle and took the only open seat next to me. We were on the back bench and jammed. I always try to be friendly and asked him wher ehe was headed and he replied Syracuse. Turns out he was a tatoo artist, had gone to art school and was totally opposite to what i had expected. We had a really interesting two hours and I learned a great deal about the tatoo business. Even more bizzare, there is a graffiti art wall (sponsored by the owner) and this guy had painted a section the prior day, which I had been admiring  the same morning. In addition, I had met this guy a few years earlier when I photographed the wall from my back yard. (The picture was the wall 1/2 through a repaint)

Things are not always as they appear!.

Cya!

Bob

Edited by - BDCA on 05/11/2013 06:41:02

captbanjo - Posted - 05/11/2013:  07:01:50

Bob, I have been to a number of workshops for various instruments over the years. In that time I have learned that there is a small group of people who attend these events and are less concerned with learning than they are with hanging out. I once attended Jorma Kaukonen's Fur Peace, a beautiful guitar place in Ohio. There was a gentleman there who attended every single camp over the years. I was waiting to hear his astounding ability. When I finally got a chance to hear him play, he could barely keep timing while strumming chords. Apparently, he was more than happy to spend a lot of money and continually attend these workshops more for the social atmosphere than for the learning benefit.

This is one possible explanation for the encounter with the woman you had. Some people are just happy to be involved with this music on any level but either aren't willing or able to commit to the dedication over the years it takes as you well know.

Wayne

specs - Posted - 05/11/2013:  07:10:31

quote:

---

Originally posted by Voyageur

I think you've hit on something very close to the truth here. Bizarre as this woman's behavior might seem at first look, it does make a certain amount of sense when seen from the perspective you've described. She let a stranger change a string on her banjo probably because in that capacity, she saw him as merely a technician performing a technical job, like a mechanic repairing your car. We think nothing of trusting our mechanic with our car in the shop, but we wouldn't want him to take it for a spin downtown!

---

 Uhm, after I have a mechanic work on my car; I'd much prefer they take it for a quick test drive after completing the work to make sure they didn't forget/screw something up.

David McLaughlin - Posted - 05/11/2013:  11:53:50

Bob...No doubt, you have at least learned that you can't judge a person's musical prowess by their instrument or case. It's absolutely a fact that most owners of Loar signed F-5 mandolins can barely pull a note out of them. When I go to jams, I never guess a musician's level of expertise by their instruments or case stickers. Many of the best banjo players I know bring junky instruments to jams. Then the guy in the corner with a prewar flathead can't play well, but just had a whole lot of $$$.

whyteman - Posted - 05/11/2013:  14:46:39

We need to get the "jam" out of session in OT music. We can learn a lot from the no-nonsense Irish session musicians! With them you either play at the requisite level and behave like an adult or:
a) you shut up, watch and learn
b) you go practice and practice and practice alone and with others at about your level and then come back when you can play well enough.

Public OT "jams" that sound like a bad banjo camp class degrade the music. Bad behavior should not be tolerated. We should take a cue from the Irish session players and take ourselves seriously.

Don

wbelm - Posted - 05/11/2013:  16:02:01

Bob this woman is driving you crazy, if you weren't already. You seem to be trying to convince us that she was wrong. Man its her banjo and her right.

My suggestion:
Next time you ask someone to borrow their instrument, patiently give them the chance to let you know when its ok. Don't ask a second time; they heard you.
If they don't offer, let it be.

JTRoberts - Posted - 05/11/2013:  16:53:09

BDCA:

She didn't want you to play her banjo, but you kept pushing. Not a strategy that creates harmony in a group. Regardless of what you think about her personality or playing ability, it is her right to loan or not loan a banjo.

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 05/11/2013:  16:54:05

quote:

---

Originally posted by whyteman

 

We need to get the "jam" out of session in OT music. We can learn a lot from the no-nonsense Irish session musicians! With them you either play at the requisite level and behave like an adult or:

a) you shut up, watch and learn

b) you go practice and practice and practice alone and with others at about your level and then come back when you can play well enough.



Public OT "jams" that sound like a bad banjo camp class degrade the music. Bad behavior should not be tolerated. We should take a cue from the Irish session players and take ourselves seriously.



Don

---

A big RIGHT ON !!!! to that in capital letters, Whyteman.

maryzcox - Posted - 05/11/2013:  16:56:35

Bob,, yes that Ne Plus Ultra is a sweet little banjo-- it actually sounds a lot like a real white lady. You should take it along for your travel banjo-- it is pretty lightweight and I've taken it traveling before :)

In the last ten years when anyone shows up in any of my workshops--almost everyone shows up with really nice banjos-- sometimes two or three -- it doesn't really matter what their ability level is-- there are some really nice banjos out there right now and folks don't seem to mind paying good money for good banjos :) I enjoy seeing them and playing them :) gone are the days when folks bring old banjos with broken slipping gears and rusty strings to class and its absolutely wonderful :)

Remember that all kinds of folks buy all sorts of quality products. If a woman showed up in a vintage racing car with all kinds of bumper stickers from racing events-- you would not necessarily assume she was a race car driver and ask her if you could race her car around the block. Or if she had really nice diamond earrings-- you wouldn't assume she was a jeweler or a professional diamond cutter and ask to try on her studs :)

She probably just liked banjos, bought a nice one, and liked to go to music events, hang out and have fun :)

And. Hey Bob -- if we are ever at an old time jam together and I'm wearing a cute pair of high heels-- don't bother to ask if you can try them on and walk around-- I don't care if you worked 20 years as a professional shoe model-- still not going to happen :)

captbanjo - Posted - 05/11/2013:  17:07:37

I don't think Bob is the one pushing the subject; we are.

It's pretty clear that he did not push the woman but thought that if she let him change the string on her banjo that she would loan him the banjo for a tune or two. At least I would think that would be the case if I were in his position.

Maybe we can let this whole thing die now?

On another note (pun intended) I like the idea that a bluegrass or OT session should be up to the standards of  an Irish session. If it's clear that the players at a session are of a certain caliber, one should assess his/her own abilities before they attempt to participate IMO.

Wayne

Deaf Lester Crawdad - Posted - 05/11/2013:  17:28:31

quote:

---

Originally posted by maryzcox

 

And. Hey Bob -- if we are ever at an old time jam together and I'm wearing a cute pair of high heels-- don't bother to ask if you can try them on and walk around-- I don't care if you worked 20 years as a professional shoe model-- still not going to happen :)

---

(Raises hand...)   Um, where does one find these jams where the girls wear heels?

I've never seen that happen in 50 years......not that I'd mind... 

~Pete

dmar57 - Posted - 05/11/2013:  19:05:31

I think this thread is in bad taste and quite passive aggressive. Fair enough, maybe the woman should have let you try the banjo, but coming here afterwards posting the jam location, some details about her banjo etc seems a bit off.

quote:

---

Originally posted by whyteman

 

We need to get the "jam" out of session in OT music. We can learn a lot from the no-nonsense Irish session musicians! With them you either play at the requisite level and behave like an adult or:

a) you shut up, watch and learn

b) you go practice and practice and practice alone and with others at about your level and then come back when you can play well enough.



Public OT "jams" that sound like a bad banjo camp class degrade the music. Bad behavior should not be tolerated. We should take a cue from the Irish session players and take ourselves seriously.



Don

---

Well, I think one reason is that Irish music is a lot more standardised than old time. The way Irish music is taught in Ireland is fairly rigid and therefore everyone knows their role. As an Irish person one of the things that appeals to me about old time music is that it leaves more space for idiosyncracies. Modern Irish music is fairly rigid in comparison. 

Also, if old time went down the road you're suggesting, I dare say you might have to go relearn a more standard form of old time playing, ie a more standard/conventional clawhammer stringband style than what you seem to play, as you might find your current style not being authorized for session playing by the all knowing powers that be.

Edited by - dmar57 on 05/11/2013 19:16:40

Paul R - Posted - 05/11/2013:  19:17:49

quote:

---

Originally posted by captbanjo

On another note (pun intended) I like the idea that a bluegrass or OT session should be up to the standards of  an Irish session. If it's clear that the players at a session are of a certain caliber, one should assess his/her own abilities before they attempt to participate IMO.

Wayne 

---

So ... just how is someone supposed to develop? I think that jams have more than one purpose, one of which is to allow players to benefit from the experience and expertise of others. I feel fortunate to belong to a jam which accepts everyone and appreciates the contributions which even beginners can make. When I think of some of the people who've shown up, I'm glad we gave them a chance, and we all got something positive out of it. Our jam has one circle.

captbanjo - Posted - 05/11/2013:  19:55:11

Get good enough to play with others first. No need to be in a session to learn the tunes. Once you can play a few tunes, go for it in a session and sit out the tunes you don't know.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Paul R

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by captbanjo

On another note (pun intended) I like the idea that a bluegrass or OT session should be up to the standards of  an Irish session. If it's clear that the players at a session are of a certain caliber, one should assess his/her own abilities before they attempt to participate IMO.

Wayne 

---

So ... just how is someone supposed to develop? I think that jams have more than one purpose, one of which is to allow players to benefit from the experience and expertise of others. I feel fortunate to belong to a jam which accepts everyone and appreciates the contributions which even beginners can make. When I think of some of the people who've shown up, I'm glad we gave them a chance, and we all got something positive out of it. Our jam has one circle.

---

Paul R - Posted - 05/11/2013:  20:33:44

quote:

---

Originally posted by captbanjo

 

Get good enough to play with others first. No need to be in a session to learn the tunes. Once you can play a few tunes, go for it in a session and sit out the tunes you don't know.

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Paul R

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by captbanjo

On another note (pun intended) I like the idea that a bluegrass or OT session should be up to the standards of  an Irish session. If it's clear that the players at a session are of a certain caliber, one should assess his/her own abilities before they attempt to participate IMO.

Wayne 

---

So ... just how is someone supposed to develop? I think that jams have more than one purpose, one of which is to allow players to benefit from the experience and expertise of others. I feel fortunate to belong to a jam which accepts everyone and appreciates the contributions which even beginners can make. When I think of some of the people who've shown up, I'm glad we gave them a chance, and we all got something positive out of it. Our jam has one circle.

---

 

---

Not tor be argumentative, but how do you know you're "good enough to play with others" if you don't play with others? I don't think of an open jam (note the italics) as an exclusive club. If a jam is going to be exclusive, who sets the limits of exclusivity? Who determines how good a player is? Who sets the level? (That being said, I can understand the existence of a - more or less - closed jam, where players who are up to a certain level wish to play at - or above - that level. If jams are a form of training, then you train at or above your level. It's just that I see a jam as an opportunity for more cross-pollination. Perhaps that's where we differ?)

With respect to your original comment, I think the people who have come to our jam do assess their calibre before they sit in.

To make a parallel observation, my cycling club was made up of, as one person put it, "fast riders - and they drop you". It didn't make for a very welcoming atmosphere. Being a "good" cyclist simply meant strong and fast. Some of us changed that and made the club welcoming of novices, and now the club has many more members and a varied schedule. It's much more diverse and creative. And some of those newbies have gone on to become more fit and more fast, something that most likely wouldn't have happened had we not welcomed them as they were.

captbanjo - Posted - 05/12/2013:  06:54:29

Only thing I can say is that those type of jam provisions exist already. I've been  to plenty of jams where the message is clear that the bar is high. I personally respected this and if I wasn't up to par, watched or maybe did a little back up.

There are many jams that are more accessible for learners. The musician ought to be aware of his/her level of proficiency and respect the jam IMO.

Wayne

BDCA - Posted - 05/12/2013:  07:00:19

I ran a monthly Irish session for a number of years in Salem, just blocks from the Old Time Jam in question. Clearly stated on the poster and announcement e-mails was "Advanced Players Only"  That's code for no spoons, wooden dancing men and multiple bodhrans. In 2 years we never had any issues.The old time session, on the other hand, is very welcoming of beginners with few advanced players.

Cya!

Bob

g3zdm - Posted - 05/12/2013:  08:10:48

 I do find it bizarre that she let you tune it but wouldn't return the favour by letting play a tune or 2.

I have been to the OT session further south at The Skellig in Waltham MA about 10 times in the last 4 years; I bring my travel banjo (Tranjo) with me and have no problem letting others try it out as its unusual construction makes folks curious.

Had a good time there only last Sunday evening but am now back in UK (BG session here tonight and Irish session tomorrow).

I have had interesting times joining trad Irish sessions in Ireland itself; when I walk in with a 5-string banjo I get some funny looks. However, once they witness me playing melody during their tunes, they often request me to play a BG or OT number to add some variety

to their session.

Chris Muriel, Manchester, UK 

madkelt2004 - Posted - 05/12/2013:  09:29:12

Oh my! Eccentric behavior in/around Salem, Ma???

Matt Buckley - Posted - 05/12/2013:  11:53:23

I know this has been stated several times before in connection with threads about Irish traditional music on the 5-string, but it's worth pointing out again that the words "jam" and "session" are not interchangeable.   Indeed, many folks who use the word "jam" are frequently the ones bewildered or upset about the unwritten rules of a "session".

A session is not a free-for-all.  And in my experience, sessions are not nearly so much about elitism , as is often the charge, as they are about common sense rules of etiquette.

Cheers.

Matt

Edited by - Matt Buckley on 05/12/2013 11:56:14

captbanjo - Posted - 05/12/2013:  13:35:39

That's an excellent distinction Matt! I think the very word 'jam' conjures up an atmosphere of experimentation. Being a bluegrass banjo player I'm fairly well-versed at jamming. However, my new inroads into Irish traditional music don't allow me to sit in at sessions very often. At least, that's the way I feel. I may be being overly cautious but I'd rather be that than to be presumptuous and sit in at a session where  can't keep my head above water and interfere with the regular's flow.

Wayne

BDCA - Posted - 05/12/2013:  21:51:48

quote:

---

Originally posted by madkelt2004

 

Oh my! Eccentric behavior in/around Salem, Ma???

---

Believe it or not there was one of the local witches carrying some sort of wilted tree branch in there when i arrived. Comes with the territory... You should be here on Halloween when 350,000 weirdos in costume show up!!

 

Cya!

Bob

maryzcox - Posted - 05/13/2013:  06:12:35

quote:

---

Originally posted by whyteman

 

We need to get the "jam" out of session in OT music. We can learn a lot from the no-nonsense Irish session musicians! With them you either play at the requisite level and behave like an adult or:

a) you shut up, watch and learn

b) you go practice and practice and practice alone and with others at about your level and then come back when you can play well enough.



Public OT "jams" that sound like a bad banjo camp class degrade the music. Bad behavior should not be tolerated. We should take a cue from the Irish session players and take ourselves seriously.

 

Don

---

 Hey-- the real jams or sessions already go on-- but  they generally are not held in public and beginners are usually not invited to play. The public jams that you are talking about are usually held as part of some sort of commercial interprise such as a bar, so they can sell more drinks . Banjo camps pay the instructors to lead jams for the attendees. Beginning jammers who are good organizers often put together local jams so there will be a place for them to jam and are able to attract out of town talent when they pass through town. Music stores often put on jams to get folks in the store-- festivals encourage jamming because they can sell more tickets.

but these usually are not the real session type jams-- they go on in people's homes as parties and you have to be invited :) I think it's much more polite than holding a session in a public place like an Irish session and letting folks show up and get turned away than just not  inviting them at all :)

BDCA - Posted - 05/13/2013:  07:28:12

Irish sessions, which tend to be weekly, get well known for the level required to participate and there are so called "slow sessions" where beginners can bring music and there are tunes circulated by the leader that are played, hopefully leading to the ability to play by ear at normal sessions. In addition, there is thesession.org where you can find out about sessions anywhere in the world. They will often state the required skill level.

As I am new to old time jams, I don't know if there is an equivalent.

Another question: What does one do when a piano accordion player shows up at an old time jam and ruins the music?

Cya!

Bob

LEUllman - Posted - 05/15/2013:  16:05:35

quote:

---

Originally posted by BDCA

Another question: What does one do when a piano accordion player shows up at an old time jam and ruins the music?

Cya!

Bob

---

Saying something like this -- quietly and privately -- has worked for me: "Um, excuse me, but your accordion (harmonica, trumpet, flute) is the only wind instrument here, and it's making it hard for me to hear the changes.  Could you maybe play a little quieter?" Works every time.

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 05/16/2013:  10:24:59

I think that it requires a higher level of skill to participate in a typical Irish session,
the *basis* of which is folks playing medleys of what we think of as fiddle tunes
with each other note-for-note in unison in a variety of keys and time signatures.
Additionally, the better musicians incorporate a system of ornamentation that is by and large
absent from OT music. Because of the way in which the music is performed, there is far less room for plinkers
and bangers to goof around in an ill-defined back-up section. To be a competent Irish session player you need to be familiar enough with a couple hundred tunes and be able to recall them on the fly.

I think that the whole slow-jam, everyone has a RIGHT to participate has more to do with our modern culture of not wanting to hurt anyone's feelings and has led to things like the elimination of class valedictorians (because it might make the under-achievers feel like, well, under-achievers) or kids' sports where no score is kept. If a slow-jammer had demanded his spot at the sort of dances they held in my Dad's youth in Missouri, he would have awakened on the creek bank with a big knot on his head and double-vision for a week... if he was lucky.

captbanjo - Posted - 05/16/2013:  12:48:32

RD.....hahaha!

Wayne

bohemian - Posted - 05/16/2013:  18:45:39

While the lady banjo "player" may have seemed odd, my take is she was trying to find a way to deal with an odd situation ie. "bizarre behavior".

I believe it is immaterial that she may not have known how to change a string, how does that relate to a stranger asking to borrow her banjo ?

Bad form in my opinion.

I do not loan instruments or borrow them. least of all ask.  It is different if someone offers, but even here I'll likely, politely, decline.

Edited by - bohemian on 05/16/2013 18:52:21

BDCA - Posted - 05/16/2013:  19:56:30

I do not loan instruments or borrow them. least of all ask.  It is different if someone offers, but even here I'll likely, politely, decline.

How unfortunate for you!

Cya!

Bob

madkelt2004 - Posted - 05/17/2013:  03:20:45

Actually, I'd like to see that! Bet it's wild.

quote:

---

Originally posted by BDCA

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by madkelt2004

 

Oh my! Eccentric behavior in/around Salem, Ma???

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Believe it or not there was one of the local witches carrying some sort of wilted tree branch in there when i arrived. Comes with the territory... You should be here on Halloween when 350,000 weirdos in costume show up!!

 

Cya!

Bob

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BDCA - Posted - 05/17/2013:  03:45:53

Where else do the cops have a witch on a broomstick on their patches and police cars? 350,000 weirdos drop by on Halloween.

bohemian - Posted - 05/17/2013:  07:11:36

BDCA:

"How unfortunate for you."

Being respectful does have a downside for some, I'm willing to pay the price.

Clawdan - Posted - 05/17/2013:  07:14:13

quote:

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Originally posted by BDCA

 

I do not loan instruments or borrow them. least of all ask.  It is different if someone offers, but even here I'll likely, politely, decline.

How unfortunate for you!

 

Cya!

Bob

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I don't know Bob. Last time I lent an instrument it was almost brand new and came back with scratches (LOTS) all around the TOP of the sound hole of my new Taylor guitar. Good musician too. Have never allowed him to play another instrument of mine and am very careful before lending one out any more. You never know and in my case, they are my tools of my business.

I'm glad to let you try one out (especially one I'm trying to sell ) with me in close contact - but only to try it unless I really know you and how you treat your instruments. I even recently bought a beater Martin partly to take to our Old Time Fiddler sessions and tour with so I wouldn't have to beat up my good guitar.

Also, I think RD got it right. "In our day" - to sound like the old curmudgeon that I seem to be becoming - the open sessions (yes, they were called jam sessions) even at the bar kept the "bar" high and you thought twice before coming to play but you knew you were "Coming to PLAY!" There was good music long into the night. Those not sure of their level, then or now, all you have to do is listen to one or two tunes being played to know if you can or cannot do that.

Don't want to try it in public? Then use recordings. Easy enough to say if you can or can't keep up with say a Boiled Buzzard recording. LOTS of ways, Paul to know and judge your level without embarrassing yourself or others in public. Still in doubt? Ask your teacher and work with them until you can play 10 or so common tunes at around 120 (2/4; 240 4/4). THEN you are ready to go out to the session to play. This isn't said or meant to be cruel or non-inclusive. It is just polite. Otherwise, those better sessions all go behind closed doors and you NEVER get to hear good music in public. There is a long version of the jam article I wrote for several magazines some years ago in the back of my Clawhammer Banjo From Scratch book.

Play Nice,

Dan

Clawdan.com

BDCA - Posted - 05/17/2013:  08:21:51

I don't know Bob. Last time I lent an instrument it was almost brand new and came back with scratches (LOTS) all around the TOP of the sound hole of my new Taylor guitar. Good musician too. Have never allowed him to play another instrument of mine and am very careful before lending one out any more. You never know and in my case, they are my tools of my business.

I'm glad to let you try one out (especially one I'm trying to sell ) with me in close contact - but only to try it unless I really know you and how you treat your instruments. I even recently bought a beater Martin partly to take to our Old Time Fiddler sessions and tour with so I wouldn't have to beat up my good guitar.

My touring guitar is carbon fiber (CA) and it's bullet proof. I can see how getting a new guitar scratched up would be aggravating, Luckily I don't have that problem. Last week, United broke the case, but the guitar was still in tune. You may want to look into the CAs. I have attached a recording made at a recent practice in Chapel Hill using my CA  recorded on a Tascam 07 sitting on a table. My '63 D-28 (I'm the original owner) is so beat up, there's little to worry about. I would be a bit hesitant with my A4 but no problem with my banjos, as long as I am careful to had it over and retrieve it carefully. Those tenors weigh a ton!

I have some rare banjos that folks don't run across often and if there is a player in a session that would enjoy the opportunity to play it, I'll ask if he or she would like to play a tune on it. That also breaks down some of the barriers for new players and conversely, it's fun to play different instruments.

Cya!

Bob

Olf Briar Picker Brown

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 05/17/2013:  11:36:47

quote:

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Originally posted by bohemian

 I believe it is immaterial that she may not have known how to change a string, how does that relate to a stranger asking to borrow her banjo ?

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Immaterial?  To me that is the main thing that makes the situation "bizarre".  Of course a person has every right to not lend their instrument if they don't want to.  I've done it myself and for the reasons Dan gives above, but to ask someone to change a string for you and THEN not let them play a tune.  If you don't trust someone to play your banjo, why would you trust them to install a string and tune it up?  And let's just forget that you are asking a favor and then turning right around and refusing one to your benefactor!

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As for the concurrent discussion about jamming and who should participate,  one things I find interesting is that this issue is always looked at from the beginner's position.  How about accomplished musicians?  Do they have a right to jam at their own level?  Does the public have a right to hear this music played well?   I've never met a truly good who refuses to help a beginner, but all "jams" cannot be learning opportunities or music therapy sessions.

Montanarick - Posted - 05/17/2013:  17:23:04

I want to thank all the Great Musicians who chimed in here about levels of expertise required to attend an Open Jam.....when the subject of Bob's original post was about a women who would not allow him to play her banjo....but had no problem letting him change a string....I would find that strange too. Hey, Bob says it like he feels it....and there's nothing wrong with that....some people like it some don't....but you always know where he's coming from......Heck, I was raised by an Irishman and and my wife of 37 years is Irish. Believe me when I say....I always know where I stand with them both....But, back to what I am grateful for.....As an old, cynical fart who usually sees the worst in almost everything.....I was totally amazed several years ago when I took up banjo and found it did not seem to contain the usual snobbery that you find in golf, fly fishing, hunting, skiing, etc, etc, etc. I thought....I must be getting soft or missing something....I attended the American Banjo Camp and was accepted by everyone....players much better than me....this is one of the aspects of banjo world I have really come to appreciate. But deep down inside I really didn't want to accept the fact that I was becoming more open minded and had found a group that for the most part was very inclusive......Because that meant that maybe I couldn't be a cynical old fart anymore.....but alas, I'm safe....you have confirmed that my world is still in tact. Maybe you should have some sort of mastery demonstration required at the door before a jam begins. This way you can make sure that only the best of the best are admitted.....afterall, you don't want to force the 6 to 10 spectators who come to listen to be forced to go elsewhere for their entertainment when all the great musicians go behind closed doors. Thank you....Rick

Deaf Lester Crawdad - Posted - 05/17/2013:  17:36:34

quote:

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Originally posted by R.D. Lunceford

 

quote:

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Originally posted by bohemian

 I believe it is immaterial that she may not have known how to change a string, how does that relate to a stranger asking to borrow her banjo ?

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Immaterial?  To me that is the main thing that makes the situation "bizarre".  Of course a person has every right to not lend their instrument if they don't want to.  I've done it myself and for the reasons Dan gives above, but to ask someone to change a string for you and THEN not let them play a tune.  If you don't trust someone to play your banjo, why would you trust them to install a string and tune it up?  And let's just forget that you are asking a favor and then turning right around and refusing one to your benefactor!

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Give the man a cigar.

~Pete