Montanarick - Posted - 05/17/2013:  18:12:54

quote:

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Originally posted by captbanjo

 

 

I'm detecting a hint of sarcasm?  I really don't know what you're detecting....

I think a lot of the posts discussed how to determine if a jam was suitable or not for one's level of proficiency. Most jams allow some inclusion. I know that I posted regarding my reluctance to play at Irish sessions but the fact simply is that most Irish sessions require a level of repertoire and proficiency I don't believe I have. Yet. I'm practicing and will enter the fray someday. I don't consider myself a 'great' (your term) five string player but I could fit into most bluegrass jams easily enough. The term Great....might have been a little sarcastic....I have to admit....but I'm glad you are able to fit in

I'm thinking you might believe there's a certain snobbery being demonstrated here but I don't see it that way.  That's fine....I'm not asking you to agree with me More like a discussion about jams and sessions in general IMO. We're all entitled to our own opinions.......

Wayne

 

 

quote

:

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Originally posted by Montanarick

 

I want to thank all the Great Musicians who chimed in here about levels of expertise required to attend an Open Jam.....when the subject of Bob's original post was about a women who would not allow him to play her banjo....but had no problem letting him change a string....I would find that strange too. Hey, Bob says it like he feels it....and there's nothing wrong with that....some people like it some don't....but you always know where he's coming from......Heck, I was raised by an Irishman and and my wife of 37 years is Irish. Believe me when I say....I always know where I stand with them both....But, back to what I am grateful for.....As an old, cynical fart who usually sees the worst in almost everything.....I was totally amazed several years ago when I took up banjo and found it did not seem to contain the usual snobbery that you find in golf, fly fishing, hunting, skiing, etc, etc, etc. I thought....I must be getting soft or missing something....I attended the American Banjo Camp and was accepted by everyone....players much better than me....this is one of the aspects of banjo world I have really come to appreciate. But deep down inside I really didn't want to accept the fact that I was becoming more open minded and had found a group that for the most part was very inclusive......Because that meant that maybe I couldn't be a cynical old fart anymore.....but alas, I'm safe....you have confirmed that my world is still in tact. Maybe you should have some sort of mastery demonstration required at the door before a jam begins. This way you can make sure that only the best of the best are admitted.....afterall, you don't want to force the 6 to 10 spectators who come to listen to be forced to go elsewhere for their entertainment when all the great musicians go behind closed doors. Thank you....Rick

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R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 05/17/2013:  19:58:58

quote:

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Originally posted by Montanarick

 

 Maybe you should have some sort of mastery demonstration required at the door before a jam begins. This way you can make sure that only the best of the best are admitted.....afterall, you don't want to force the 6 to 10 spectators who come to listen to be forced to go elsewhere for their entertainment when all the great musicians go behind closed doors. Thank you....Rick

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In general folks are (or should be) aware of their skill level and whether they fit into jam or not.

It is the individual that, in spite of knowing he is not up to speed insists on participating to the degree that he wrecks it for the group.

In other words , a little sensitivity, manners, and appreciation for the music and the players is all it takes.  If folks are self-policing then it eliminates forcing others to assume that unwanted role.

Montanarick - Posted - 05/17/2013:  20:23:40

quote:Ok.....I give.....I was having a little fun with it but the Captain detected sarcasm......my bad....you guys know a lot more about this subject than I do and besides I've got to go practice for my next jam.....I've got to hurry up and get good because I'm 60 years old and I want to be ready for my first jam before I'm 80.....Rick

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Originally posted by R.D. Lunceford

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Montanarick

 

 Maybe you should have some sort of mastery demonstration required at the door before a jam begins. This way you can make sure that only the best of the best are admitted.....afterall, you don't want to force the 6 to 10 spectators who come to listen to be forced to go elsewhere for their entertainment when all the great musicians go behind closed doors. Thank you....Rick

---

In general folks are (or should be) aware of their skill level and whether they fit into jam or not.

It is the individual that, in spite of knowing he is not up to speed insists on participating to the degree that he wrecks it for the group.

In other words , a little sensitivity, manners, and appreciation for the music and the players is all it takes.  If folks are self-policing then it eliminates forcing others to assume that unwanted role.

---

BDCA - Posted - 05/18/2013:  06:24:28

quote:

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Originally posted by R.D. Lunceford

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Montanarick

 

 Maybe you should have some sort of mastery demonstration required at the door before a jam begins. This way you can make sure that only the best of the best are admitted.....afterall, you don't want to force the 6 to 10 spectators who come to listen to be forced to go elsewhere for their entertainment when all the great musicians go behind closed doors. Thank you....Rick

---

In general folks are (or should be) aware of their skill level and whether they fit into jam or not.

It is the individual that, in spite of knowing he is not up to speed insists on participating to the degree that he wrecks it for the group.

In other words , a little sensitivity, manners, and appreciation for the music and the players is all it takes.  If folks are self-policing then it eliminates forcing others to assume that unwanted role.

---

Unfortunately we have a accordion player in Tucson who is a legend in his own mind and thinks poorly played (loud and off tempo with wrong melody) accordion goes will all styles of music including Old Time and Irish.

Cya!

Bob

captbanjo - Posted - 05/18/2013:  06:35:55

I remember when I was a new five string banjo player. My nervousness at jams sometimes led me to play loud rolls over other peoples instrumentals and vocals. After getting the stink eye from several people I figured out I had to calm down a bit.

I think most people do learn to calm down and back off when they should be playing to fit the music. It's the unfortunate few who insist on playing over other people who make it tough for the rest of us. Less can be more.

Rick, no hard feelings. You have a right to your opinion as you pointed out. My only point here is that, as R.D. pointed out, the more we police ourselves the less we have to be policeman at jams. You have the right to remain silent...

Wayne

BDCA - Posted - 05/18/2013:  07:12:32

The key skill to learn for new musicians is to listen to the band, not to themselves. This goes for jams, bands, Irish sessions and impromptu playing. Our rougue accordian player has been at it for 9 years and has never acquired that skill. If some new player, experienced or not, is being disruptive and I feel it is worth my effort, I will take them aside and tell them to listen to the group, not themselves. If they are not expert enough to play while listening to the whole sound, they are not ready for primetime.

Then there are the hopeless cases, like the spoon players, the nepophyte bodhran players, bones, etc, who have no clue. I usually, "That sounds great! It would sound even better outside".  I am not yet in a position where I can offer advice in an old time jam. Plus, in Tucson, there a very good chance the musician is armed!

Cya!

Bob

Clawdan - Posted - 05/18/2013:  07:59:05

Great fun all. Now, if you REALLY want to see elitism and snobbism at its height, I went to NEFFA once and was dancing in the advanced room. Well, when another couple was not at level to the room, there was no discussion or polite suggestion, they were simply booted out of line! Just sayin. Now on with the wierd jam behavior.

Klondike Waldo - Posted - 05/18/2013:  08:16:37

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clawdan

 

Great fun all. Now, if you REALLY want to see elitism and snobbism at its height, I went to NEFFA once and was dancing in the advanced room. Well, when another couple was not at level to the room, there was no discussion or polite suggestion, they were simply booted out of line! Just sayin. Now on with the wierd jam behavior.

---

Ah, yes, I've been to NEFFA a few times...

Klondike Waldo - Posted - 05/18/2013:  08:17:37

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clawdan

 

Great fun all. Now, if you REALLY want to see elitism and snobbism at its height, I went to NEFFA once and was dancing in the advanced room. Well, when another couple was not at level to the room, there was no discussion or polite suggestion, they were simply booted out of line! Just sayin. Now on with the wierd jam behavior.

---

Ah, yes, I've been to NEFFA a few times...

BDCA - Posted - 05/18/2013:  08:22:06

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clawdan

 

Great fun all. Now, if you REALLY want to see elitism and snobbism at its height, I went to NEFFA once and was dancing in the advanced room. Well, when another couple was not at level to the room, there was no discussion or polite suggestion, they were simply booted out of line! Just sayin. Now on with the wierd jam behavior.

---

Tough Love!! Intermediate skiers who make the mistake of skiing advanced trails break legs! I'd say if there was a big Italian guy waling around at jams and sessions with a crow bar, there wouldn't be any problems!

Cya!

Bob

Montanarick - Posted - 05/18/2013:  08:27:26

quote:I really see two issues here......maybe being confused......1.....beginners trying to learn and assimilate and 2.....rude behavior at a jam. There is no excuse for the latter....and in my opinion, as to the former, more experienced players.....especially those who make money off of beginners should welcome and help them assimilate and progress......If you want to reserve a jam for the elite players,   which is totally understandable, label it as a private jam...or advanced jam, as Bob did....requiring a certain level of skill....Rick

---

Originally posted by Clawdan

 

Great fun all. Now, if you REALLY want to see elitism and snobbism at its height, I went to NEFFA once and was dancing in the advanced room. Well, when another couple was not at level to the room, there was no discussion or polite suggestion, they were simply booted out of line! Just sayin. Now on with the wierd jam behavior.

---

Edited by - Montanarick on 05/18/2013 08:32:32

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 05/18/2013:  18:14:26

Make money off of beginners?
Elite players?

Rick, it seems like you have a chip on your shoulder.
Maybe you had a bad experience that left you with some
hard feelings toward "elite" players you felt snubbed by?

Perhaps you could elaborate. It might be a constructive
sidebar to this conversation.

Montanarick - Posted - 05/18/2013:  18:52:06

banjohangout.org/global/ckedit.../icon.png) center no-repeat #ff0000;cursor:pointer;top:-1px;-moz-border-radius:0px 0px 2px 2px;border-radius:0px 0px 2px 2px" title="Insert paragraph here">↵

:  R.D. No chip.....way too old for that....I call em like I see em......I don't always see em correctly.....if that's the case here then I apologize. I'm not sure where the chip is....but as soon as I said great, elite, etc. it's like I'd touched a boil on a bull's ass.....The fact is that when I say elite players that's because I believe there are elite players....I include you in that group, and I think you guys have a right to opportunities for expert playing.....but this idea that everyone's going to know how to rate and police themselves is not very realistic.....I don't want new players to read the comments I read and be inhibited from participating. Unfortunately, if you're going to participate in group activities....you sometimes have to take on the "unwanted responsibility of policeman." Rude behavior is one thing and ignorance is another and they should be handled differently. Rudeness with a boot and ignorance with some coaching. Rick

---

Originally posted by R.D. Lunceford

 

Make money off of beginners?

Elite players?



Rick, it seems like you have a chip on your shoulder.

Maybe you had a bad experience that left you with some

hard feelings toward "elite" players you felt snubbed by?



Perhaps you could elaborate. It might be a constructive

sidebar to this conversation.

 

---

dmar57 - Posted - 05/18/2013:  19:43:17

Surely beginners learning from experienced players for free in a jam situation is more in the spirit of old time music than beginners locking themselves away learning from tabs and paid camps and not daring to play with others until they are "ready"?

Clawdan - Posted - 05/19/2013:  07:18:56

I always love it when the discussion turns to the theory that "it should all be free and everybody should be included in EVERYthing" when first, if it were not for the commercial recording industry (then and now) we would not even have any idea or recordings of how our predecessors played, two, teachers have ALWAYS charged something for their experience to be passed down one way or another- once there were unpaid apprentices who worked for the master in exchange for their knowledge; now we use cash - and third, were never allowed to play in the light of day until the master said they were ready.

I for one have always shared my knowledge - yes even for free (there are even some folks here on the list that will tell you the stories), but do charge for books, recordings and lessons where you have my direct attention (group or individual) because ... well you know why. AND ALWAYS encourage folks to play and play with them in groups and one on one.

So, Rick, the apparent "anti-elitism" is just as rude and uninformed. You want to hear the best and learn how it's done? Then LISTEN to them now and then, record them (yes, folks do that for FREE and post the results) then go HOME to work out the best you can be so you CAN come back and play with the big boys and girls. We'll welcome you with open strings. Don't believe it? Last night my band played the South Pasadena dance (for like big bucks right) and towards the end our friend and host Steve Shapiro decided to join us on banjo. Came up on stage, got a mic and there he was. LOVED it. He know's his stuff so even though we hadn't rehearsed or played much together this trip, he was welcome because he is a strong player. Think just everyone and anyone should be permitted to do that? I don't. Those dancers paid to get top quality music and that is what I want to present.

Just several hours before I was jamming at the Old Time Social. No pay, btw for appearing OR performing for the event. Just a social. Played for several hours both then and the day before with folks like Tom Sauber together with folks like, perhaps you. Best and just learning in one happy group. Better players were inside the circle, newer players towards the outside. As we get better we move in.

Bad behavior at jams - whether rude or just plain odd - is just not how it is supposed to be. We come to play too. So,

Play Nice,

Dan

Clawdan.com

Coming to a town near you.

PS. According to Bob Carlin even Kyle Creed made you chop wood for your lesson time.

.... Rant over...

Edited by - Clawdan on 05/19/2013 07:20:14

pauwac - Posted - 05/19/2013:  07:57:33

The problem as I see it is that the culture of old time music in general, and banjo playing in particular, is rural, non-professional, and kind of underdog, for lack of a better word. This is the weird old American culture that many of us love and it produced some great, eccentric music and musicians.   I believe the culture from which this music originally arose has been nearly destroyed by corporate capitalism, so we're left with a music connected to a vague idea of something that is almost gone, but something that we still deeply long for. 

This is why, in my opinion, so many feelings get hurt in the world of modern traditional music.  There's the actual music, and there's the complicated agenda behind the music.  Simply put, some of us may not play well, but we feel somewhere deep inside--right or wrong-- that this music is our birthright. 

Montanarick - Posted - 05/19/2013:  08:54:16

quote:Clawdan....I think I hit a nerve....Before I say anymore, I want to say you are one of my banjo heroes and will remain so, even though you think I am rude and uninformed. I won't even return your books....that I think are some of the best....and gladly pay for. But, I want you to read your own words ...highligthed below. If most newer players wouldn't interpret those comments as elitist I would be very surprised...just say'in....And you reference Bob Carlin.......He's my first banjo hero and told me during a camp....to get out there...play with people better than yourself as often as you can.... stretch yourself, etc...He also has no problem taking on the "unwanted role of policeman" (attributed to R.D.) and scolding people when they are not "playing nice," are out of time with the group, etc. I respect this. So, if I offended you and others I am sorry. I will continue to respect your playing and teaching abilities and try to understand your point of view....and hopefully some of those folks who unwittingly express an elitist point of view through some of their comments will try and understand other perspectives as well. Regards, Rick

---

Originally posted by Clawdan

 

I always love it when the discussion turns to the theory that "it should all be free and everybody should be included in EVERYthing" when first, if it were not for the commercial recording industry (then and now) we would not even have any idea or recordings of how our predecessors played, two, teachers have ALWAYS charged something for their experience to be passed down one way or another- once there were unpaid apprentices who worked for the master in exchange for their knowledge; now we use cash - and third, were never allowed to play in the light of day until the master said they were ready.

I for one have always shared my knowledge - yes even for free (there are even some folks here on the list that will tell you the stories), but do charge for books, recordings and lessons where you have my direct attention (group or individual) because ... well you know why. AND ALWAYS encourage folks to play and play with them in groups and one on one.

So, Rick, the apparent "anti-elitism" is just as rude and uninformed. You want to hear the best and learn how it's done? Then LISTEN to them now and then, record them (yes, folks do that for FREE and post the results) then go HOME to work out the best you can be so you CAN come back and play with the big boys and girls. We'll welcome you with open strings. Don't believe it? Last night my band played the South Pasadena dance (for like big bucks right) and towards the end our friend and host Steve Shapiro decided to join us on banjo. Came up on stage, got a mic and there he was. LOVED it. He know's his stuff so even though we hadn't rehearsed or played much together this trip, he was welcome because he is a strong player. Think just everyone and anyone should be permitted to do that? I don't. Those dancers paid to get top quality music and that is what I want to present.

Just several hours before I was jamming at the Old Time Social. No pay, btw for appearing OR performing for the event. Just a social. Played for several hours both then and the day before with folks like Tom Sauber together with folks like, perhaps you. Best and just learning in one happy group. Better players were inside the circle, newer players towards the outside. As we get better we move in.

Bad behavior at jams - whether rude or just plain odd - is just not how it is supposed to be. We come to play too. So,

Play Nice,

Dan

Clawdan.com

Coming to a town near you.

PS. According to Bob Carlin even Kyle Creed made you chop wood for your lesson time.

.... Rant over...

---

captbanjo - Posted - 05/19/2013:  09:02:58

Relating to Dan's post, I am among the lucky ones who could afford to pay for my learning material and lessons. I realize that not everybody is in this position. Over the years, whenever possible, I have always tried to purchase material and/or lessons from instructors. I want them to succeed! The more they succeed the more we succeed.

People who earn the kind of money Bela Fleck earns playing the banjo are in the minority. Most of them are just getting by. Having met many professional roots musicians, from Dan to Tony Trischka to Tony Rice, I feel lucky to have learned something from them over the years.

Wayne

whyteman - Posted - 05/19/2013:  10:56:13

Please consider this. When people are playing with others at about their level they can actually put on a fine session. There are some fine youtube videos of groups several rungs below the "elite" (like my group!) who play well together. We're on the same page and not on edge or self-conscious.



And we don't expect a "Soccer Trophy" for "Most Improved Tuner" to bolster our self esteem. If there are great players around I'd only watch, listen, and learn unless invited. And maybe sit barely within earshot playing softly, no thimbles or picks. Who knows, you might get invited to the session and if not, that's ok too.



The late, great Jim Lansford once invited me to sit in with him on a few tunes. Only later I realized he was "auditioning" me. The fact that I didn't make the cut didn't bother me. It was "tough love" and made me resolve to try to improve. There's a reason Jim recorded with Jeff Miller and not me!



Don

Edited by - whyteman on 05/19/2013 10:58:55

whyteman - Posted - 05/19/2013:  11:07:31

And, let's consider another type of session: Secession! If unwanted people or instruments show up, pack up and start a different circle. All human endeavers only get worse as they become too big, complex and dare I say diverse! This is true in government, religion, corporations and yes, Too Big To Frail sessions.

When a second like instrument shows up at a session, there is a pretty fair chance that things will deteriorate. Keep the group small and the music tight!

Don

BDCA - Posted - 05/19/2013:  12:20:05

I have been to Irish sessions in Ireland where there were 25 instruments, mostly melody, playing the tame tune in total synch. It was great fun and a great sound coming from that part of the pub. Folks who didn't know the tune sat it out. No shame in that!

I recently went to a few old time jams in NC and they were really wonderful. Occasionally, a few advanced folks would get together inside the circle for a couple of tunes and sort of play for themselves without being detrimental to the group. It was that spirit that rekindled the old time bug.

Damnit, back to banjo shopping!

Cya!

Bob

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 05/19/2013:  19:25:16

quote:

---

Originally posted by Montanarick

 

....and hopefully some of those folks who unwittingly express an elitist point of view through some of their comments will try and understand other perspectives as well. Regards, Rick

---

I don't think Dan or anyone else has made any "elitist" statements.  That's why your use of the term led me to believe you have a chip on your shoulder, and your comment about "making money off of beginners" was way off base.

There's an old saying:  "We all view life from the limb we're sitting on".  Us "elitists" have sat on your limb- you haven't sat on ours.  None of us elite banjo players were born that way.  We were all beginners so we understood the "other perspective" before you did.

That said, thanks for lancing the boil on my elite "bull's ass".

Montanarick - Posted - 05/19/2013:  20:47:37

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quote

:It's so amazing to me how you have taken this so personally.....I never directed my comments at you directly. Talk about a chip.....Most of what you just said is not even worth responding to. I have learned one thing though......when you cross the big boys here (Dan's words) look out! I would like to tell you that the lancing was successful but I'm afraid your condition is terminal.

P.S. I'm sure you will want the last word....I guess it's important for you to keep trying to knock the chip that you think I have on my shoulder off. So feel free to throw a few more shots at me if it makes you feel better....I will not respond....I made my point....offered apologies for the way I said things and if I offended anyone.....but apparently that's not good enough for you. By the way....your "old saying" below is the biggest bunch of B.S. I've ever heard.  

---

Originally posted by R.D. Lunceford

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Montanarick

 

....and hopefully some of those folks who unwittingly express an elitist point of view through some of their comments will try and understand other perspectives as well. Regards, Rick

---

I don't think Dan or anyone else has made any "elitist" statements.  That's why your use of the term led me to believe you have a chip on your shoulder, and your comment about "making money off of beginners" was way off base.

There's an old saying:  "We all view life from the limb we're sitting on".  Us "elitists" have sat on your limb- you haven't sat on ours.  None of us elite banjo players were born that way.  We were all beginners so we understood the "other perspective" before you did.

That said, thanks for lancing the boil on my elite "bull's ass".

 

---

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 05/19/2013:  22:16:25

quote:

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Originally posted by Montanarick

 

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quote

:It's so amazing to me how you have taken this so personally.....I never directed my comments at you directly. Talk about a chip.....Most of what you just said is not even worth responding to. I have learned one thing though......when you cross the big boys here (Dan's words) look out! I would like to tell you that the lancing was successful but I'm afraid your condition is terminal.

P.S. I'm sure you will want the last word....I guess it's important for you to keep trying to knock the chip that you think I have on my shoulder off. So feel free to throw a few more shots at me if it makes you feel better....I will not respond....I made my point....offered apologies for the way I said things and if I offended anyone.....but apparently that's not good enough for you. By the way....your "old saying" below is the biggest bunch of B.S. I've ever heard.  

---

Originally posted by R.D. Lunceford

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Montanarick

 

....and hopefully some of those folks who unwittingly express an elitist point of view through some of their comments will try and understand other perspectives as well. Regards, Rick

---

I don't think Dan or anyone else has made any "elitist" statements.  That's why your use of the term led me to believe you have a chip on your shoulder, and your comment about "making money off of beginners" was way off base.

There's an old saying:  "We all view life from the limb we're sitting on".  Us "elitists" have sat on your limb- you haven't sat on ours.  None of us elite banjo players were born that way.  We were all beginners so we understood the "other perspective" before you did.

That said, thanks for lancing the boil on my elite "bull's ass".

 

---

 

---

You say that you never directed anything at me personally, yet you condescendingly refer to "elite" players and then tell me *I'm* one of them?  Here's a news flash for you: Insults masquerading as complements are always personal.  And then the homespun (yet crude) boil on a bull's ass thing? Come on.  You use a scatter gun approach and whoever gets hit, gets hit, but that's OK because you weren't aiming at anyone in particular so no one has any right to respond. You lay this "I just call 'em as I see 'em"  trip on us as if your being some kind of self-proclaimed straight-shooter gives you the right to insult people on an open forum.

Your posts have had a thinly veiled hostility towards players you've labeled "elitists" from the beginning, and in your last couple you've been doing nothing but throwing haymakers at thin air so they are the ones not worth responding to. 

Well, you offered the last word so there it is.  I can hear the steam whistling out of your ears all the way out here, so, in the event you can't resist, sit down, have a drink of water, and put a cool cloth on your forehead before you respond...maybe it will help you post something more coherent and less abrasive. 

plunknplinkntwang - Posted - 05/20/2013:  03:02:10

quote:

---

Originally posted by R.D. Lunceford

 

---

In general folks are (or should be) aware of their skill level and whether they fit into jam or not.

It is the individual that, in spite of knowing he is not up to speed insists on participating to the degree that he wrecks it for the group.

In other words , a little sensitivity, manners, and appreciation for the music and the players is all it takes.  If folks are self-policing then it eliminates forcing others to assume that unwanted role.

---

In relation to the opening post and resulting tangential discussions - RD's synopsis is spot on accurate.  But it's worth adding that this applies to both ends of the ability curve.   An insistence at an open forum event; that everyone will be at, or stay at your own ability or any fixed level of performance is both inconsiderate and selfish.    Closed forums/sessions, whether slow jams or maestro renditions, are a different matter.

As to commercialization - why not?  We all need to make a living and shouldn't decry anyone who can earn one from this particular method.  Dan & RD are good tutors and provide honest support, I've wares from both in my collection and no refund is being sought.

But I didn't read criticism of commerce in the conversation, my feeling was that the intimation that a less inclusive approach to OT should be promoted, was the spark.   [At odds to RD & Dan's usual demonstrated manner].  A sensitivity to that sentiment possibly heightened by the tenet and denigration contained within the OP's commentary throughout this thread.

regards

Chris

PS>  I've zero experience of [or motivation for] jamming, but have frequent interaction within other collectives of disparate personalities, experiences and abilities etc. - so treat the previous text as being worth 10 times the amount you paid for it..

Clawdan - Posted - 05/20/2013:  09:19:24

quote:

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Originally posted by pauwac

 

The problem as I see it is that the culture of old time music in general, and banjo playing in particular, is rural, non-professional, and kind of underdog, for lack of a better word. This is the weird old American culture that many of us love and it produced some great, eccentric music and musicians.   I believe the culture from which this music originally arose has been nearly destroyed by corporate capitalism, so we're left with a music connected to a vague idea of something that is almost gone, but something that we still deeply long for. 

This is why, in my opinion, so many feelings get hurt in the world of modern traditional music.  There's the actual music, and there's the complicated agenda behind the music.  Simply put, some of us may not play well, but we feel somewhere deep inside--right or wrong-- that this music is our birthright.

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Get over the myths. All of you. One - It is NOT rural music. By mid 1800's the folks have moved to town and took their music with them. To quote Charlie Acuff and his brother talking to my wife Jennifer (who was raised on a dairy farm near Mt. Rainier) "Why girl, you're more old timey than we are . We were raised in town!"  There were are still rural components but it is a myth that "it is rural".

Two, It IS professional. Why do you think we have all of those COMMERCIAL recordings of groups like the Skillet Licers, Uncle Dave and - HORRORS - TOMMY JARRELL! They didn't make em for their health boys and girls.

Three - the corporate capitalism - as you call it - put the music and the musicians on the map. Think any of those bands had the money to make a record and sell it by themselves?

Four - Modern Traditional is an oxymoron. Modern music can be traditional, and it is a tradition to pass on the music - any music - but anything we play today carries on the tradition and modernizes it at the same time.

Five - There is no "Birthright" in this life. You want to sit in better quality jams with better musicians (although by your reasoning you shouldn't want to  since it is all music you should like the bad ones) then learn to play better. I can't tell you how many folks we come across that just don't want to put in the work. Fine by me but then don't think you can play with the high powered jams. Play bad and stay home if you like.

There are MANY folks out there who are wanting to learn as much as they can and be the best players they can. They (AND I) are always working on getting better and work hard to be the best. Join em or quit b****in about what other folks do or do not do.

We have ALL earned our place in the jam session by working hard, listening MORE than playing, and going gladly to ask advice and yes, pay some to sit with us and teach us more.

It's all about time and place. Folks who know me know I'll play with anyone and everyone and gladly help ya out for free at events around the world. But sometimes, I'm gonna be glad to have you watchin and listenin as me and a few great players get to make music at the level we have earned.

Another rant done.

Play Nice,

Dan

Clawdan.com

Clawdan - Posted - 05/20/2013:  09:40:24

Just a short ps.

None of this is personal or meant to be an attack on anyone's person or ability. There is a hierarchy here in the old time music world just like everywhere else. Politics, power and money come into play. I call it the higher politics of lower dollars since there really is not much money involved. There are "big boys and girls" and by inference little boys and girls just starting out. We all have played the game and worked hard. It's really open to anyone.

We all start on the outside of the circle listening or playing as softly as we can, then as we progress in skill and yes social order, we move closer to the center of the circle. I have been lucky enough to find myself often at the center of the circle these days, but have worked hard to get there - both musically and socially. Life ain't always fair, so we pick our goals and do our best to achieve them.

I have and will gladly work with and play with anyone who is serious about learning and playing. I often do it for free. So, if anyone has taken anything personally, it just ain't aimed at anyone. Just working to make sure the music stays strong and in capable hands. Yours.

Dan

captbanjo - Posted - 05/20/2013:  11:27:06

This reminds me of the bluegrassers who speak in reverent tones about bluegrass and its origins. Well, Bill Monroe was quite clear that he set out to find a musical form that would appeal COMMERCIALLY to people so he and his brother Charlie could earn money. By earning money, they ate and had a car and were able to continue to play music. There was little reverence of music thought about, at least back then by them. Cash flow baby!

Wayne

BDCA - Posted - 05/20/2013:  12:56:52

they ate and had a car and were able to continue to play music.

Unlike most of today's bluegrass musicians...

Cya!

Bob

Dan-Ban - Posted - 05/20/2013:  13:04:57

I think if I was lucky enough to come into a room and see good folks like Dan and R.D. jamming, I'd just sit down, shut up and listen. They, along with many other top notch players, have contributed so much to posts & forums on the BHO. Their books, cds, dvds and teaching aren't free. Nor should they be. But they gladly share their knowledge & Banjo wisdom for free. They've more than earned the right to jam with their peers when they so wish to do so.

whyteman - Posted - 05/20/2013:  14:20:25

...and it's more fun to play with others roughly of your own level of competance. Sometimes you play, and sometimes you observe. I don't think Dan and R.D. are grandstanding for themselves; they are advocating for good sounding music in public.

pauwac - Posted - 05/20/2013:  15:04:33

Clawdan, thank you for reminding me why I almost never post on the Hangout. 

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 05/20/2013:  17:29:19

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clawdan

 

I have and will gladly work with and play with anyone who is serious about learning and playing. I often do it for free. So, if anyone has taken anything personally, it just ain't aimed at anyone. Just working to make sure the music stays strong and in capable hands. Yours.

Dan

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Bravo Dan... sums it up nicely.

For myself, I make very little money with the banjo and often give too much away to be a good businessman.  For me it is about keeping the music going.  That means there have to be opportunities for music played at a competent level both for the sake of the performers and for the sake of inspiring listeners (any one of whom may decide to become a player and thus pass the music on).

The majority of folks starting out are sincere and mannered and know when and where they fit in.  However whenever we have one of these discussions, someone always shows up who wants to bad-mouth the "pros" and put forth the idea that everything should be open to everyone all of the time and that the "elite" guys owe something to the beginners they "have taken money off of", as if they are out there fleecing the innocent.

One comment I made earlier was that, many of us, having played for decades, and now considered the "elite"  were once beginners too.  We all underwent much the same experience that beginners today do with the exception that 45 years ago when I started there were far fewer resources.  If anything the method was more traditional.

There were in fact good players around... more often than not, players from an older generation who were from the South or Midwest and who gathered primarily to play music for their own enjoyment and that of their listeners and to be danced to.  They'd help beginners, but their jams were not specifically for that purpose.  I personally never took my instrument out in public until I was sure I could keep up and even then waited for an invitation to join in.  I certainly would have been too embarrassed to ask the "elite players" to slow down for my benefit or insist on giving me "my turn".  The reality used to be either you could play or you couldn't, and if you couldn't you worked at it until you could.  The music served a purpose within the social scene   and music played below a certain standard served no purpose.This all takes time and effort, and unfortunately our society has devolved to the point where it  expects nearly instant gratification- the problem is that this music is the product of an older, more patient, and respectful culture.

Nowadays there are so many more opportunities and resources for beginners, so much so that I am amazed at the few who begrudge folks who after years, if not decades of effort occasionally want to play at a certain level without being accused of being exclusionary.

In my observation, a lot of this "beginner militancy" comes not from younger folks but from older ones.  It is as if they have an "I've paid my dues" attitude and I'm done paying.  They may have paid their dues in whatever area of life they've pursued, but not on the banjo, and sorry, but as most of us have learned there's no way around that.

That Dan Levenson should be criticized in any manner astounds me.  I predict that history will include Dan in the same paragraph as Pete Seeger, Tom Briggs, and Frank Converse when it tells of the teaching and spreading of the banjo and its music, and on top of this, Dan's generosity is widely known and appreciated by the thousands of folks he has helped.  Additionally, Dan is mutually admired and respected by the Old-Time greats of our day.  We are fortunate to have recourse to his experience, insight, and knowledge here, and that he forebears the occasional foolishness that is directed at him.

I am a different story.... I in no way consider myself one of the "elites" and am well aware of the drawbacks in my own playing.  I believe that I've reached a respectable level and am continually humbled by the good opinion folks occasionally express concerning my music.  I think there are many folks right here on The BHO who are better players than I am, and I can guarantee you that there are many great musicians around whom I would be hesitant to pull out my banjo.  After 45 years I can only say that I have made a start.  Perhaps my detractors will label the foregoing insincere false modesty, but it comes more from trying to hold to a high level and still having further to go. There are things that I have struggled with and am only now beginning to be able to incorporate into my playing.  My learning has taken the pattern of reaching a goal only to then realize there is something else yet to work on.  After 45 years of this, no matter how pleased I am with my own playing, I've finally realized that I'll never "arrive".  I guess that's a good thing, and one of the miracles of this music as it is played on an instrument that only seems simple to outsiders.

In the end, what we are really doing is learning to be good listeners.  Listen to your own playing because it is the key to advancement.  Listen to the playing of others to learn and for inspiration.  If you learn to listen you'll always know the way ahead and where you fit in.

Edited by - R.D. Lunceford on 05/20/2013 17:39:04

frankscott - Posted - 05/20/2013:  20:28:01

quote:

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Originally posted by Nick Danger

 

If it were me, and if that woman was hesitant about letting me borrow her banjo for whatever reason, I would've dropped it right then and there (the request to borrow, not the banjo).

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Regnad Kcin, where you been? Your moniker brought back memories of laughing till we cried listening to Fireside Theater decades ago. Couldn't resist commenting.

bohemian - Posted - 05/20/2013:  21:25:46

"Immaterial?  To me that is the main thing that makes the situation "bizarre".  Of course a person has every right to not lend their instrument if they don't want to.  I've done it myself and for the reasons Dan gives above, but to ask someone to change a string for you and THEN not let them play a tune.  If you don't trust someone to play your banjo, why would you trust them to install a string and tune it up?  And let's just forget that you are asking a favor and then turning right around and refusing one to your benefactor!"

Forgive me as I do not see one act connected to the other.

I also am suspect of the story as we have only the OP's version.   The story, in itself, is bizarre.

Just a little intralinear inspection.

Montanarick - Posted - 05/21/2013:  05:52:01

This has been an interesting thread....I know I have learned from it....here's what I've learned about myself.......don't use sarcasm and a bad attempt at humor and expect not to be challenged...then when challenged don't get angry and try to get the last cute word in. Captbanjo pointed out my sarcasm and he was right...I should have listened to him and tried to make my point in a different way. By not doing so other people got caught in the cross-fire, feelings got hurt and the situation kept going down hill.....ripple effect took over and people said things they probably wish they hadn't. That being said I still believe that respect should be given to those who have earned it. Dan Levenson has my deepest respect for what he has accomplished in music and for what he gives back....I never meant to offend him but I think I did with some of my comments. I still have some strong opinions about when inclusion  is appropriate and when it is not.... but I'll save that for another day and attempt to deliver them in a more appropriate way....Clawdan....you still rock,in my opinion....even if we don't agree on everything........And finally, my parents did teach me manners....even though at 60 I sometimes forget them......I would never assume that it is appropriate for me to come sit in your circle with my banjo unless invited and even then I would probably respectfully decline.......Regards, Rick

BDCA - Posted - 05/21/2013:  06:43:05

I also am suspect of the story as we have only the OP's version.   The story, in itself, is bizarre.

I take offense at your insinuation that I am a lier. IOn addition, since you don't even reveal your location and you claim to play accordion (already suspect in by experience) and a littlre bancjo (how little? 10" ??) I find all your opinions rendered on this topic irrelevant.

Cya!

Bob

Gordy Ohliger - Posted - 05/21/2013:  10:24:52

There's all kinds...
Don't take it personally.
She's a beginner in so many ways..

Never expect to get a Yes when asking to borrow an instrument.

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 05/21/2013:  16:18:12

quote:

---

Originally posted by bohemian

 

"Immaterial?  To me that is the main thing that makes the situation "bizarre".  Of course a person has every right to not lend their instrument if they don't want to.  I've done it myself and for the reasons Dan gives above, but to ask someone to change a string for you and THEN not let them play a tune.  If you don't trust someone to play your banjo, why would you trust them to install a string and tune it up?  And let's just forget that you are asking a favor and then turning right around and refusing one to your benefactor!"

Forgive me as I do not see one act connected to the other.

I also am suspect of the story as we have only the OP's version.   The story, in itself, is bizarre.

Just a little intralinear inspection.

---

The reason I see one act as connected to the other is to my way of thinking, when you ask someone for a favor and they comply, you owe them a favor in return.  Of course if someone asks you for a favor in return it should be commensurate.  In other words if someone changed a flat tire for you it would be out of line for them to ask to borrow your car for a week, but if after changing the tire they asked for a lift to the nearest bus stop it would be pretty poor of you to refuse.

Now in the case we're discussing, I don't see that Bob was asking a favor that was out of line.  The lady doesn't trust Bob to handle her banjo, yet she certainly let him handle it by allowing him to install a new string and, I assume tune it up.  To me, letting someone play your instrument is less "invasive" than allowing them to perform a minor repair. I just don't get why you'd allow one and refuse the other.

Again, for me, when someone does you a favor you owe them.  That applies to all areas of life, not just music.

Clawdan - Posted - 05/21/2013:  21:22:36

For the record, I think if we all agreed it would indeed be boring. No one answer serves all situations and so all know, I don't think I have taken anything in this thread personal and even my comments have been regards the issues of jam behavior not any one person's behavior. I'm glad we can have discussions where necessary though not always p/c things can be said. Viva la difference. Some jams are indeed a big free for all, others not. Glad to get to talk and even "argue" in the technical sense the differences.

Thanks to Rick for his comments in concern for personal issues, I think we all grow through these discussions. As always,

Play Nice,

Dan

Clawdan.com

On the road again!

mishe mokwa - Posted - 05/23/2013:  04:50:53

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"Get over the myths. All of you. One - It is NOT rural music. By mid 1800's the folks have moved to town and took their music with them. To quote Charlie Acuff and his brother talking to my wife Jennifer (who was raised on a dairy farm near Mt. Rainier) "Why girl, you're more old timey than we are . We were raised in town!"  There were are still rural components but it is a myth that "it is rural".

Two, It IS professional. Why do you think we have all of those COMMERCIAL recordings of groups like the Skillet Licers, Uncle Dave and - HORRORS - TOMMY JARRELL! They didn't make em for their health boys and girls."

Not to split hairs, but I disagree with the statement that this is not "rural music".  Rural is defined (via webster.com) "of or relating to the country, country people or life, or agriculture".  I would bet that the "town" Mr Acuff spoke of was undoubtedly in very close proximity to some kind of agricultural countryside.  More importantly I'd bet that towns economy was very closely tied to that agricultural economy, OR mining if he was from coal country (grain elevators, dairy farmers, people living in town might of been seasonal workers, the schools were likely paid for with revenue resulting from the surrounding agricultural/rural area).  Most importantly we can CERTAINLY distinguish between metropolitan areas (ie. large cities) and towns/rural areas.  The cultural "climate" of cities, I think we can agree, is far different from a rural area.  Also I've never met person (and I've known many over the age 80) that has grown up in town within a rural areas and distinguished the culture of "town" from the countryside surrounding it.  Most importantly (from my own experience) those families that had moved to town didn't adopt any alien culture or lose any part of there rural culture.  In conclusion, they still raised chickens, knew how to identify local plants, had "gatherings" at other people's home places, had extensive knowledge of the areas history, could run a team of horses or still had the knowledge of local work habits and generally still lived a "rural" life.

I agree that the  music is no longer "rural" in its entirety, but I think that is a really recent development (post 60's folk revival).  

(Sorry for the formatting,  I don't know why it looks so crazy.)

Edited by - mishe mokwa on 05/23/2013 04:57:54

BDCA - Posted - 05/23/2013:  07:27:11

I agree that the  music is no longer "rural" in its entirety, but I think that is a really recent development (post 60's folk revival).  

I don't agree. My first exposure to Old Time music in the early 60s, was the New Lost City Ramblers, bunch of City Fellas and their music in turn, spawned a host of "New" old time groups and interpretations of "mountain music" from the 20s and 30s.

Cya!

Bob

mishe mokwa - Posted - 05/23/2013:  08:27:35

quote:

---

Originally posted by BDCA

 

I agree that the  music is no longer "rural" in its entirety, but I think that is a really recent development (post 60's folk revival).  

I don't agree. My first exposure to Old Time music in the early 60s, was the New Lost City Ramblers, bunch of City Fellas and their music in turn, spawned a host of "New" old time groups and interpretations of "mountain music" from the 20s and 30s.

Cya!

Bob

 

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I can't argue with that.  I guess my feeling is that though the music has traveled far and wide for sometime now I still consider it a kind of rural music.. especially the forms of it that are closely emulated by both city and country folks alike.  My main point was that the music, its roots and themes, have kind of always centered around rural life, whether played by country, city or anyone in between.  It seems to me that many peoples draw to the music is it's roots as much as it is it's sonic qualities.

Edited by - mishe mokwa on 05/23/2013 08:33:00

BDCA - Posted - 05/23/2013:  09:12:07

Bluegrass player from North Carolina

Old Time Player from New Jersey

Cya!

Bob

Edited by - BDCA on 05/23/2013 09:13:49

chip arnold - Posted - 05/23/2013:  09:15:18

The meaning you want to convey through the above pictures is?

BDCA - Posted - 05/23/2013:  09:28:58

Rural is a state of mind..

Cya!

Bob

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 05/23/2013:  10:15:20

To me, it is more of a chronology issue. If you go back to say, before the Civil War, a lot of what we might consider old-time rural music was being played in the big cities. Take a look at the repertoire in books like Briggs (1855) and Rice(1858). Now you may argue that they purportedly got a lot of that material from slaves when "at the South", and so it was rural music to begin with, but there were lots of other songs and tunes that were being played and sung in places like New York City 170 and more years ago. If there is any accuracy to it, listen to the repertoire in the film "Gangs of New York". Songs like "New York Girls" for example and some fiddling as well. The narrative and ballad songs, along with jigs and reels were one of the popular genres of the time period in general. And had been for hundreds of years in Europe prior.

We tend to think of that sort of music as rural because it was in rural society (which was traditional by nature) that the music best survived when it went out of fashion elsewhere. Hence the "folk revival" drew on the traditions of the rural societies that had best preserved that general style of music. As such, with a "shorter memory" we view the music as exclusively rural when it wasn't until comparatively recently.

captbanjo - Posted - 05/23/2013:  10:16:25

Haha...

Earl wanted to convey sophistication while some OT'ers want to be seen the other way!

pWayne

Montanarick - Posted - 05/23/2013:  10:51:54

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quote

:I think this is a very interesting discussion and I keep thinking about what Bob said.....My grandparents, on my Dad's side were farmers....starting in Kansas (1800's) and ending up in Colorado in the early 1900's. They lost their farm during the depression and ended up in Salinas California as migrant workers (Tent Camps, etc....just like Grapes of Wrath)....They ultimately ended up in Southern Ca. where my grandfather became a carpenters helper (in his 30's) and my grandma went to work for J C Penny company as a clerk where she stayed for 42yrs (even sold jeans to Clark Gable). My grandparents, on my mother's side were from rural Missouri (where my mom was also born). My grandpa was a cabinet maker/carpenter. He helped build the first cabins at the Lake of the Ozarks when the dam was built....in the 30's. They too ended up in Southern Ca....during the depression, looking for work. Even though they were totally "California-ized" by the time I was born (in Spokane WA....Fairchild Air Force Base) I always viewed them as "country people." I always wanted to be like them and my parents wanted to erase any memory of the "rural past," and be "sophisticated." I always hated the city, even when I was little, and I didn't know why. In 1965, when all my friends were learning rock and roll guitar I signed up for folk guitar lessons....from our version of Joan Baez, in my neighborhood....she introduced me to Pete Seeger and all the other greats of the time. Later....after college I went to work for a big corporation where I stayed for 25yrs....wearing the suit, etc. Even though I had a good career....I never felt comfortable in the environment.... the others drove "nice cars" and I drove a pickup....They lived in "nice" suburban neighborhoods and we always lived on the outskirts with a little property....where I could operate the chainsaw....etc. I married a girl from a small town in Montana and as soon as I could get out of the corporate world I did....we now live in Montana....surrounded by horses, sheep, chickens, cattle, etc, and I finally feel at home. I think the "rural" thing might be a state of mind....in certain ways....with a gravitational pull that can pass through the generations. Rick

Originally posted by BDCA

 

Rural is a state of mind..

 

Cya!

Bob

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Edited by - Montanarick on 05/23/2013 10:53:13