steve davis - Posted - 04/19/2011:  10:19:16

Everybody's a mere mortal.

BanjoLink - Posted - 04/19/2011:  12:27:23

quote:

---

Originally posted by NYCJazz

What is it about owning a prewar banjo that makes them think that they will live forever?

Maybe I can get a government grant to study this phenomenon.

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 Nathan  -  please tell me who either said or implied that   -  even remotely!  Was it the mean, rich, selfish, bad playing straw man that was referred to earlier?  Wes must know because he agreed with you!

Wes Lassiter - Posted - 04/19/2011:  13:29:00

Ouuch. your right Nathan I know...

Flathead75 - Posted - 04/19/2011:  13:30:38

I think Banjoez has a point. There are some new banjo's that are so close to pre-wars that over a sound system I don't think you could tell much difference. I finally realized that the banjo's we have made today are so good that I as a mere average player really don't need to beat myself up over not being able to buy an original. If Earl gave me his Granada I'd still be sitting at home playing in my music room by myself! Just find one you like and wear it out practicing!

steve davis - Posted - 04/19/2011:  13:32:50

I like owning banjos that,if they get destroyed,it won't be the end of the world.

McUtsi - Posted - 04/19/2011:  13:44:52

Today:"rich collector"...a hundred years on:a hero for preserving fine banjos.McUtsi

Wes Lassiter - Posted - 04/19/2011:  13:52:23

One note about my pre war. If the banjo had been a brand new Huber and sounded like my pre war, i would be playing it right now. it just so happened that when I played this particular banjo it did the trick for me. I have owned numerous banjos and liked most of them but as with most folks, I was searching for that certain something. It just so happened to be a pre war. As the old saying goes different strokes for different folks. I have also noticed since I have owned this pre war the tone that is produced by a lot of pre wars seems to have a different flavor one I appreciate personally. So the old who is right and who is whatever cannot apply to personal taste. I have played some banjos that have come close, real close even as close as 95%. It just so happens old 33 is the one for me for now. I do know of one other, if you all have been keeping up with this whacky thread that will be mine one day soon. It just so happens to be a pre war as well, all original and an absolute amazing original flathead. I am fortunate to know where it is at. And as you all will know it will have the fire played out of it and will not be sitting in a case.

TR Dockery - Posted - 04/19/2011:  14:11:12

How many pre-wars do you have to own to be a "collector"?  How well do you have to play to justify owning any high-end banjos?

With that, I'm gonna' have to put my redneck fire alarm ("Jiffy Pop") to use for its originally intended purpose 'til I can replace it tomorrow at Piggly Wiggly.

Happy trails,

Randy in Germantown, TN

Edited by - TR Dockery on 04/19/2011 14:22:21

Wes Lassiter - Posted - 04/19/2011:  14:29:26

I think if you play well enough that you enjoy it, that is good enough. The main thing is that you play it no matter how good you are..

Flying Eagle - Posted - 04/19/2011:  19:14:41

A good sounding banjo, prewar or not, sounds good no matter who's playing it; but a good sounding banjo doesn't make you a good banjo player.  The skill and the knowledge to play it are what make that banjo good for more than just collecting.

The prewar Gibsons are some of the best sounding banjos - but just because you have one doesn't mean you can pick.  There's a BUNCH of people out there who are quick to brag on their prewar; but their playing can't do the banjo justice.  That's kinda sad if you think about it.  Pathetic really.

As much as those banjos are worth, the skill, the knowledge, the GIFT of playing well are worth more.

JW

iluvearl - Posted - 04/19/2011:  23:00:05

A close friend of mine, who is also a banjo picker, wanted to borrow my pre war flathead for a Friday night gig.  He said he would return it Saturday.  I jokingly said that he could borrow it but if anything happened to it , I would get to spend some time with his good looking wife!  We laughed and he drove away with my banjo.  Saturday morning his wife drove up my driveway and explained that her husband had left my banjo in the trunk of his car after the gig and now it  was missing!  She explained that she was there to honor the agreement!  I told her that the banjo was insured and I would phone my agent on Monday but she insisted on "honoring the agreement."  Later that afternoon, before she left, she opened the trunk of her car  to reveal my banjo.  "I just wanted to play a joke on my husband for being so careless with that expensive banjo, so I took it from the trunk of his car and put it in my car" she explained!  I retrieved my banjo , smiled and waved as she drove away.  "Hmmm," I thought to myself. "The joke's on her;  I loaned him one of my tenor flathead conversions, not one of my original 5 string flatheads!"  It's great to be a rich banjo collector!  

bcob - Posted - 04/19/2011:  23:56:08

'One man's trash is another man's treasure' works both ways.  Try as I might, despite being redder'n'a lobster politically, I can't think of a single way to begin to care about 'premium' musical instruments of any kind.  If I ever came across a '58 Les Paul, a pristine Stradivarius, or a prewar flathead in some dead person's attic, I would sell it to one of these evil rich dudes in a heartbeat, whether I thought he could play it or not, and the joke would be on him.

Wes Lassiter - Posted - 04/20/2011:  03:33:21

So here is a question for you collectors. What is the most collectable Deering?

biganvils - Posted - 04/21/2011:  05:48:07

"It just so happens to be a pre war as well, all original and an absolute amazing original flathead. I am fortunate to know where it is at. And as you all will know it will have the fire played out of it and will not be sitting in a case."

I've been trying to follow this thread but am a bit confused. So when you get your next PW will you be a collector or will you sell/loan your other PW to another picker so it's not sitting in a case while you play your new one?

TR Dockery - Posted - 04/21/2011:  06:29:03

quote:

---

Originally posted by Flying Eagle

The prewar Gibsons are some of the best sounding banjos - but just because you have one doesn't mean you can pick.  There's a BUNCH of people out there who are quick to brag on their prewar; but their playing can't do the banjo justice.  That's kinda sad if you think about it.  Pathetic really.

 

---

 In 36 years of pickin', albeit most of closet (it's okay--even Jim Burlile refers to himself as a closet picker), I don't think I ever once heard anyone, let alone a "BUNCH", with a nice banjo assert that they had any particular skill that they attributed to having a cool banjo in and of itself.  Are you suggesting that there is something wrong with or that it is "pathetic" to be able to appreciate and afford a pre-war, even if you are a rank amateur, or even just learning?  That would be supremely elitist to me. 

On the other hand, every banjo comes with "bragging rights", be it the lowly 1970s Kay or the mighty pre-war Granada. 

Finally, any credible instructor out there will tell you that buying the best banjo you can afford will indeed help you become a better banjo player by virtue of making it more fun to practise.

Happy trails and .02,

Randy in Germantown, TN

steve davis - Posted - 04/21/2011:  06:35:57

I would have learned so much quicker if I had started with the 2 conversion I have now.

Gymbal31 - Posted - 04/21/2011:  07:38:21

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wes Lassiter

So here is a question for you collectors. What is the most collectable Deering?

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John Hartford's.

stanger - Posted - 04/21/2011:  08:15:34

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wes Lassiter

Derek  the straw man in my mind are the ones who need awareness of  what they possess. Maybe there are not that many but it seems there are more folks who either inherit these instruments and do not see this problem. Banjothon is the one place at least where a number of these instruments show up each year but from what I have heard it is a little tough to really hear an instrument for there are so many. I mainly wanted to raise the awareness of say someone who may have read this and will be more willing to share with someone else. you don't have to be a great player to enjoy the instrument. In fact that doesn't matter. It does matter that the Granada or more realisticly RB  250 or whatever someone has just to have is much better off making music. Another story, I had sitting under my bed an original Fresnel Lens (Handcut glass lens for an old lighthouse). I got sick of no one getting to enjoy it so I sold it and turned it into a bass for my wife and a car for my youngest son. The lens is going to be enjoyed by many, my wife is playing a really nice bass and my son is styling. I feel a whole lot better about that then having this valuable lens sit under my bed. No I would not let a kid play my pre war unless I was present. There is some common sense to this matter..  I hope maybe one banjo comes out from hiding for playing as a result of this. If it has it has been worth it...

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Hi, Wes...

In a perfect world, every banjo made would be well played, cherished, and always maintained. 

But in reality, we all know that isn't the case, and never has been. An old banjo that is passed from generation to generation, always kept in family hands, is not hoarded. It is treasured as a family heirloom.  When, or if,  the family connections are weak or broken, the banjo is sold.

When an old banjo is kept, it is due to remembrance of the family member who owned it. The more expensive the banjo is, the more likely it will be kept for a long time. People don't keep the junk we all accumulate, but the good stuff is passed down.

It's not the banjo, Wes, it's the people. You presume that your idea of a wonderful banjo is going to be desired forever by many others, in future generations. 

That's not the reality. 100 years ago, an S.S. Stewart Thoroghbred Presentation model, built 30 years earlier, was still a much more desirable as a playing instrument than another brand to a second generation, but to the 3rd generation, and the 4th, that banjo becomes less and less desirable is a player- the times and preferences always change. 

There will always be fanciers who think of an S.S. Stewart Presentation as their dream banjo, but ask yourself- would you want one?  

Would you be willing to pay 5 figures for one?  What would you do if you got one for free, knowing that someone would buy it for 5 figures? What if that Stewart was the most sought-after antique banjo of all, and no one was interested much in your old Gibson? 

Banjos are just musical tools. They have no 'soul' of their own, any more than an old Rockwell table saw has a soul. They don't live or die- they either stay functional or they wear out. All the magic and all the soul comes from the people who used them for their intended purpose. Those people could accomplish exactly the same using a new tool that is as good as the old one. A brand new banjo fills the same exact purpose as an old one.

And the magic  is not transferable. I don't see why valuing a banjo as an heirloom only is somehow less than if it is being played. 

regards,

stanger

Wes Lassiter - Posted - 04/21/2011:  09:19:34

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

I would have learned so much quicker if I had started with the 2 conversion I have now.

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I feel the same way. My banjo justs begs to be played and played well.

bobbybanjo - Posted - 04/21/2011:  11:26:23

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wes Lassiter

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

I would have learned so much quicker if I had started with the 2 conversion I have now.

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I feel the same way. My banjo justs begs to be played and played well.

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So...exactly what is it like when your banjo begs?

o2playlikeEarl - Posted - 04/21/2011:  11:44:33

If you had more money, would you be buying items of value?  Envy is a very poisonous thing. 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wes Lassiter

The best investment I have ever made was the vintage five string I purchased from Jim Mills. I don't care what you say it is the best banjo i have ever had and I will buy another one just as soon as I get the cash.  Those five string conversions just have that something extra that you cannot buy in a conventional instrument. It is sad for the majority of the really good instruments are being bought up and hoarded by the wealthy. These instruments deserve to be treasured for the music they make and not treasured for someones portfolio or for bragging rights. The other sad truth is most of these collectors couldn't pick their way out of a wet paper bag. Do yourself a favor and go out and get you the banjo you deserve and if you feel it is a pre war get it now while there are a few tenors that can be converted. The original Flatheads well you might as well forget it or hope you win the lottery for they are all gone with the exception of a few unknown strays. These banjos need to be played and played a lot. if you know someone who is hoarding these nice instruments talk to them about selling them so someone can enjoy playing them. They do not deserve to sit in a closet or some display case. They need to be played and played a whole lot.

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Wes Lassiter - Posted - 04/21/2011:  12:13:26

I am sure you would like to know Booby Boy.

DanielT - Posted - 04/21/2011:  13:34:05

quote:

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Originally posted by Wes Lassiter

I am sure you would like to know Booby Boy.

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Best Freduian slip on the BHO evar!

bobbybanjo - Posted - 04/21/2011:  15:42:27

quote:

---

Originally posted by DanielT

quote:

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Originally posted by Wes Lassiter

I am sure you would like to know Booby Boy.

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Best Freduian slip on the BHO evar!

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I think you give Wes too little credit for being creative. 

Wes Lassiter - Posted - 04/21/2011:  15:55:58

Oh I saw it too late after editing time. Only get fifteen minutes you know. I really bobbled that.

Flying Eagle - Posted - 04/21/2011:  16:27:36

TR, I know a lot of folks who can do their prewar Gibsons justice - one who comes immediately to mind is my buddy from down the street, Jim Rollins.  But there are some who, in my opinion, assume undue esteem for themselves because of the pedigree of their banjo.   That's all I'm saying. Disagree if you want - that's what I've observed.   I'm all for ANYONE enjoying WHATEVER banjo they play, whether it be an old Gibson or a new Goodtime.  My point is that it's the PLAYER that makes the music; the instrument is the tool he or she uses to do that.  It sure don't hurt to have good tools.

JW

Edited by - Flying Eagle on 04/21/2011 16:28:58

bobbybanjo - Posted - 04/21/2011:  16:38:16

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wes Lassiter

Oh I saw it too late after editing time. Only get fifteen minutes you know. I really bobbled that.

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No problem, Wes.  You were probably distracted by your banjo pleading to be played.

Wes Lassiter - Posted - 04/21/2011:  18:19:36

On a more positive note. This new American Made banjo Museum in Oklahoma featuring concerts with these fine old banjos seems the right way to do it. It is nice to see someone like this sharing these treasures through sight and sound. That is sharing and maybe some of you collectors could lend your banjos to this fine operation so they could be seen heard and played buy some lucky folks. Not many fives in the museum but a whole lot of possible conversions.(heh heh)...

DanielT - Posted - 04/21/2011:  22:26:16

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wes Lassiter

Not many fives in the museum but a whole lot of possible conversions.(heh heh)...

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See, this is why you can't have nice things. 

TB-4 Guy - Posted - 04/22/2011:  04:00:44

quote:

---

Originally posted by Flying Eagle

TR, I know a lot of folks who can do their prewar Gibsons justice - one who comes immediately to mind is my buddy from down the street, Jim Rollins.  But there are some who, in my opinion, assume undue esteem for themselves because of the pedigree of their banjo.   That's all I'm saying. Disagree if you want - that's what I've observed.   I'm all for ANYONE enjoying WHATEVER banjo they play, whether it be an old Gibson or a new Goodtime.  My point is that it's the PLAYER that makes the music; the instrument is the tool he or she uses to do that.  It sure don't hurt to have good tools.

JW

---

I've heard some awfully good music played on some really wretched instruments. One that comes to mind is the Martin D-28 that once belonged to Clarence White when he  was playing Bluegrass with his brother Roland in the Kentucky Colonels in the 1960's. (Roland White - mandolin; Billy Ray Latham - banjo and others on Bass, Dobro and fiddle) I saw him up close on several occasions when he played in Los Angeles in the 1960's. Sadly he was killed in an accident in 1973, only 29 years of age.

That guitar ( now restored and owned by Tony Rice) was without a doubt the most wretched looking guitar I've ever seen. The sound hole was totally eroded, there were large patches of finish missing and visible dings, dents and mars all over. Forgetting all that, - man could he play! He was a phenomenon! If you closed your eyes you sure couldn't tell that a mess the guitar was.

I've also known people who were so poor that they would get used guitar and banjo strings from the dumpster outside of a music shop where I hung out when I was a struggling college student many years ago. Once reinstalled, their talent made up for some of the loss of quality of the "pre-owned" strings. .

So, I have to agree with Flying Eagle here. While it's great to have a fine instrument, it's got a lot to do with the musician as well.  

Edited by - TB-4 Guy on 04/22/2011 04:03:31

steve davis - Posted - 04/22/2011:  04:56:00

I don't feel that it's any of my business to judge what someone plays for a banjo or why they own it.

Any person has just as much right to play one poorly as well...this ain't a contest and there aren't any judges.

steve davis - Posted - 04/23/2011:  05:38:11

The music is in the person...not the intrument.

maryzcox - Posted - 04/23/2011:  11:38:23

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

The music is in the person...not the intrument.

---

hello,

please excuse all lower case type as i burnt my left hand. a few years ago i bought a brazilian rosewood deering gabriella. i am not rich and it took 2 years of working full time to pay it off. it is beautiful. i bought it from a collector who was tired of storing it in a vault. even though it is listed in the deering catalog--only about a dozen exist, and i'm the only artist to ever have played one. if you would like to hear its lovely voice--it is recorded playing PONCE DE LEON on my FLORIDA BANJO CD.  i just recorded it again on a new track that will be on my new cd this year.  i am not rich or a collector and my entire family helps finance my recordings of this banjo--just so everyone can hear its voice.  please go to my website or itunes and take a listen.

best wishes,

maryzcox.com

Mike Casey - Posted - 04/23/2011:  17:08:58

I'm glad "the rich" are still buying banjos. Otherwise the whole shebang would collapse in an economic heap. 

Wes Lassiter - Posted - 04/24/2011:  08:40:32

quote:

---

Originally posted by maryzcox

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

The music is in the person...not the intrument.

---

hello,

please excuse all lower case type as i burnt my left hand. a few years ago i bought a brazilian rosewood deering gabriella. i am not rich and it took 2 years of working full time to pay it off. it is beautiful. i bought it from a collector who was tired of storing it in a vault. even though it is listed in the deering catalog--only about a dozen exist, and i'm the only artist to ever have played one. if you would like to hear its lovely voice--it is recorded playing PONCE DE LEON on my FLORIDA BANJO CD.  i just recorded it again on a new track that will be on my new cd this year.  i am not rich or a collector and my entire family helps finance my recordings of this banjo--just so everyone can hear its voice.  please go to my website or itunes and take a listen.

best wishes,

maryzcox.com

---

Now that is what I am talking about Mary. Thanks for summing it all up. I hope your hand gets better, your music is wonderful

rudykizuty - Posted - 04/25/2011:  03:13:19

I've never heard anyone call a Martin guitar "wretched" before.  

TB-4 Guy - Posted - 04/25/2011:  08:04:28

quote:

---

Originally posted by rudykizuty

I've never heard anyone call a Martin guitar "wretched" before.  

---

 You had to be there. 99% of them look better than the one that Clarence White owned  .

steve davis - Posted - 04/25/2011:  08:09:49

The most wretched 1940 D-28 I ever saw was at the home of Everett Basford in Camden,Maine.

Everett had painted it white,installed a few rhinestones and he had cut away the bottom sideof the lower bout to allow the installation of a tea pot onto which he attached a 5 string banjo neck.

Oh my,what a horrible mess.

Edited by - steve davis on 04/25/2011 08:10:24

Wes Lassiter - Posted - 04/26/2011:  07:30:13

Well I never realized how organized these collectors are. Today in the Virginian Pilot; there is a two full page color ad advertisement paid by the International Guitar Collectors Association asking for folks to "dust off those instruments and bring them in so they can purchase any instrument consider collectable. They will buy them on the spot. To me this just shows how hard in the future we ourselves will be able to buy these instruments. Well the playing part of them we might as well for the value of the instrument monetarily will far outweigh the value of playing it.

This group looks like a well oiled machine. These instruments will become nothing more than Baseball trading cards in their functionality now. Sad really sad... I am sure we will see some good banjos get put away, at least for our lifetime. Glad I have mine. You collectors aren't going to get hold of old 33 or any other I can buy and make sure it is picking away!!!

Robxx - Posted - 04/26/2011:  10:07:35

As a matter of interest, Neil Young owns one of Hank Williams  Martin D28 guitars (just imagine what the collectors would pay for that !) and that is pretty battered according to photos I've seen, but he said "It was made to be played and I play it".

I do understand what you say Wes re wealthy collectors buying up these banjos, even tho' I have said I'd do the same if I were rich. I would buy them , but I'd play them too.

I've always had an interest in classic cars and motorcycles, and owned several prewar MGs when I was much younger. Of course in those days we could buy them for peanuts, and drive them as they should be driven,and have great fun. When something broke we could still buy some new parts or go to a breakers.

These days not only can I not afford one, but I don't I would want one anyway, I'd be afraid of scratching it...

I did take my 68 Bonneville on a couple of track sessions though and had a lot of fun, but I rather overdid it and broke the crankshaft.  I was lucky to get a new old stock crank, (re imported from the USA I think) and rebuild the engine. So all is well once again.

Rob

maryzcox - Posted - 04/26/2011:  10:51:04

there are some regional luthiers who are putting out some modern instruments that would put many vintage instruments to shame. maybe many musicians are sinking their dollars into these very beautiful and playable creations and leaving the vintage to well heeled collectors who won't be setting them up to play.

​

​

steve davis - Posted - 04/26/2011:  10:59:05

If I owned an old treasure and wanted to play it I'd put the old neck away and wear out a new one.

Wes Lassiter - Posted - 04/26/2011:  11:32:48

I can understand if it is Bill Monroe's mandolin, Earl Scruggs banjo etc that those instruments should be in a museum. Even then there should be a clause that allows the instruments to be played from time to time. One of the things I respect most about Jim Mills is his willingness to let folks experience his original flatheads. What a feeling to be just digging the tone out of Snuffy Jenkins banjo!!! You have to pay to play; but to me it is worth it. Maybe some of these collectors ought to start charging admission fees to play their instruments in a supervised setting. I understand what Mary is saying but for me the sound of the pre wars just is better to my ears. (PLEASE DON'T START THIS DEBATE ABOUT THIS HORSEWHIPPED SUBJECT JUST CAUSE I SAID IT) It is just a personal preference. As Steve said I would use a new neck most likely. Sonny Osborne did and Earl went through a few necks on his Granada. I guess that is why folks like retro fitting the old tenors to get that old time pre war sound that is the usual result of a conversion. Not that many people play Plectrum or tenor any more and if they wanted to change it back to a tenor the old neck is there most of the time.

rgoad - Posted - 04/26/2011:  12:01:05

I have a friend that collects guitars, mostly, and plays everything he owns.  Some are really valuable and one is on display in the Country Music Hall of Fame.  When people visit he lets people play all of his instruments that are not too fragile.

Some instruments, for example fiddles, I mean violins, are owned by wealthy people or syndicates that provide them to be played on long term loans to especially skilled individuals.  That might be an option for some of the really unique instruments that could be loaned to great talents.  It increases the value of the instrument while letting everyone enjoy it when the persno plays it.

banjodawg - Posted - 04/26/2011:  12:21:23

I would think that collector/valuable instruments are like collector cars.  They are more valuable if they are carefully used and maintained.  For example, I put less than 5,000 miles on my "toy" car in  the seven years that I have owned it, but it would simply be a big decaying dust collector if it did not get used.

NYCJazz - Posted - 04/26/2011:  13:38:40

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wes Lassiter

 Not that many people play Plectrum or tenor any more and if they wanted to change it back to a tenor the old neck is there most of the time.

---

Back in the 20's and 30's, not that many people played 5-string "anymore". Luckily for us, most of them bought what were then new banjos.

The "old neck is there most of the time"... Really? Ya think?

I just went through the BHO classifieds, and out of the 19 Gibson tenor conversion banjos, I counted

5 WITH original neck

14 WITHOUT original neck

That's a whopping 26% that retain the original.

I find it ironic that you're complaining about the collectors driving up the prices of prewar 4-string banjos, when you are just as much a part of the problem.

Wes Lassiter - Posted - 04/26/2011:  13:56:19

You know Nyc Jazz some how I get the feeling you don't like me much. I do know the feeling is mutual. So lets just leave it at that. If you cannot make a positive comment go somewhere else and do something more for all of us. GROW UP!!!

Slingerland - Posted - 04/26/2011:  14:06:14

To me, it really depends on the quantity of the instrument made. Let's be honest, the instruments the general population of banjo people care about (even Mastertones and Silver Bells) have been mass produced and there are numerous (thousands in some cases) of the same model instrument around. Leaving out the most elusive of collectable banjos (a very select few models), the rest can be "easily" obtained. Who cares that the neck off a '26 Gibson TB-1 has been misplaced? This is not a unique or rare item in any sense of the words. The same goes for a basic model Tubaphone, Whyte Laydie, Little Wonder, etc from Vega's lines.

That being said, I personally think it is important to keep an instrument as original as possible, but I am less concerned with items that were made by the truckload. If everyone started destroying their massed produced items these instruments would become hard to come by, but I don't think the world would be out as much as missing the less mass produced items.

banjodawg - Posted - 04/26/2011:  14:24:12

Just as some folks turn old cars into hotrods, some folks like to tinker with, and even convert, their banjos.  Even rare pre-war banjos!  The key is:  THEIR banjos.  And, while other folks don't have to like what you do to your banjos, they are entitled to their opinion.