wfawley - Posted - 04/16/2011:  04:38:05

I find it disheartening .... that collectors tend to deify the work of the dead, and vilify the work of the living. I encountered a guy once who collects contemporary builders' open back banjos. Imagine that .... a collection comprised of work of the ...gasp... living!

The only thing more icky ... is when we deify the work of the living. A quick read of one dealer's site and you come away confused enough that at dinner time, when it's time to say grace, you have to wrestle with..."let's see was it Doug is great. ..Oh no ... wait a minute ... God is great, yeah that's it...

Yes, mounting rhinestones is destructive. You don't just glue them on .... you drill a small hole and "set" them. That's permanent damage. You can't "undrill" a hole.

One last observation. Isn't covetousness something to NOT be admired? Kind of goes hand in hand with minding one's own business. One who's guilty of the former, almost certainly cannot master the latter.

Wyatt

Klondike Waldo - Posted - 04/16/2011:  05:27:52

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wes Lassiter

I agree the humor is really starting to set in. I am so sorry I got everyone so upset.  i just contend instruments should be played especially the collectable ones. I guess I am going back to count my beenie babies.

---

Next time you're in Boston, take the Greenline E  trolley up to the Museum Of Fine Arts and see if They'll let you pick on that Gonsalvi. Somehow I don't think they will.

Wealthy people aren't buying up all the good banjos. Wealthy banjo players and collectors are.  I only "collect" Asian aluminum rim banjos and have trimmed my collection down to a five string and a tenor, so I don't mind.  

Klondike Waldo - Posted - 04/16/2011:  05:28:03

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wes Lassiter

I agree the humor is really starting to set in. I am so sorry I got everyone so upset.  i just contend instruments should be played especially the collectable ones. I guess I am going back to count my beenie babies.

---

Next time you're in Boston, take the Greenline E  trolley up to the Museum Of Fine Arts and see if They'll let you pick on that Gonsalvi. Somehow I don't think they will.

Wealthy people aren't buying up all the good banjos. Wealthy banjo players and collectors are.  I only "collect" Asian aluminum rim banjos and have trimmed my collection down to a five string and a tenor, so I don't mind.  

Wes Lassiter - Posted - 04/16/2011:  06:32:50

I had a friend who owned a couple really nice banjos. I will leave it at that. I go visit from time to time and he would let me play these instruments and enjoyed me playing for him and enjoyed the banjos being played. His collection of fine instruments did not stop him from wanting to lend them out to me and a select few others. He never worried and told me, " Wes take all the time you need with the banjo. Bring it back in a year or two but do bring it back." That is trust and the way it should be. I am only trying to raise the awareness of other folks who have these instruments. I hope they can be as trusting as Otis for the joy of enjoying these fine old instruments is in as much giving as it is owning. So if you are one of these folks and own a really fine instrument, try sharing it even if it rubs you the wrong way at first. More than likely the joy you will receive will far outweigh just the satisfaction of owning. There are a lot of us hungry players out here who would like nothing more than to spend some time with these fine instruments as they deserve to have the time spent with them as they were intended and that is to ringing out sweet music. We can't afford them but would love to experience the soul within. These old banjos do have that despite others narrow minded beliefs.

That is the issue here. Otis is gone now and the instruments are with his family and are not being played or shared. They are just sitting there. It is sad really. They told me Otis was way too trusting. Well in my mind he wasn't he was a kind soul who cared far more for his instruments than most. I really appreciate that in a person. How about you?

rudykizuty - Posted - 04/16/2011:  07:12:01

Wes, I think the part you're failing to understand is that this discussion you've sparked is not really about banjos. It's about people.

I'm willing to give someone the benefit of the doubt, provided I know them well enough. But there most definitely is a point where one can be "too trusting". When someone has no appreciation for the value of your generosity and returns something of financial value to you in lesser condition than it was when lent out, most people would feel disrespected by that. I've experienced that. From that point on, my so called "friend" lost that trust I was previously willing to give him. And since then? Once burned, trust must be earned!! This is just basic human nature. 

What I find disconcerting is that you seem to blame the person who either got or fears getting burned for their lack of generosity. That's not fair. The fact that you would turn the other cheek after being disrespected clearly makes you different than most people. That's certainly not a bad thing...just different is all. 

Food for thought.....Perhaps your experience with Otis is based more on the trust built by the rapport and friendship you developed with him. I'd like to think that kindness and generosity are based more on characteristics of human nature and interaction than the value or purpose of material things, like banjos ;) 

Edited by - rudykizuty on 04/16/2011 07:16:44

wfawley - Posted - 04/16/2011:  07:13:10

Wes, I have met far, far more generous people in the world of vintage fretted instruments than I have stingy ones. Folks like Otis are rare. Cherish them while they're around. Give them the flowers while they live. They're from a bygone era. I've had several people give me instruments and parts, not lend them to me. They do it in order to help my uphill climb be a little less steep. I try and pass a little bit of that spirit along. I have given away more bits and pieces in the last month than I have sold.

Wyatt

Wes Lassiter - Posted - 04/16/2011:  07:44:24

I have been burned just like everyone else does from time to time. I deeply care about these instruments and had to sell a car and a boat to aquire my bucket of tenor parts. I know Otis's family will one day offer me that one banjo for a price that I cannot afford but will figure out a way. I like you Wyatt have experienced for the most part folks who are generous and that bygone era is sad to think it is bygone . It is in Otis's spirit that I have started this thread and have endured the usual cynisism that goes along with sticking my neck out here. I was put on this earth the best I can figure to raise two amazing young men. One who is in a different country fighting for these very values and another who one person told me was the kindest human being ever born. I am proud of that. I also felt I was put here to make really nice pots for many to enjoy and to play banjo. I feel the usefulness of these instruments is in what they give our ears and our spirit every time I here one cracking out a great melody. To this day I can hear another banjo play and think about how the player is having a relationship with the instrument and the music. There is no price or collection that can even come close to that feeling within. Just as a coffee mug was made by hand to be used and enjoyed every morning, a banjo or other instrument old or new needs to be played. Every time I bring out my old banjo, I think of the path of fingers that played the very notes, I am so honored to play and was shown by such great players.

An old banjo as a possession requires care. Jim Mills when he played my 1933 style two a few months after selling it to me goes "Gosh Almighty Wes this banjo is far better than I remember it." I told Jim the reason why is that I play the fire out of it every day. He whole heartedly agreed.  There are a whole lot of banjos that need that very thing. That is all.

BanjoLink - Posted - 04/16/2011:  08:01:42

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wes Lassiter

Well Wyatt ol buddy that is where we fork in the road. First off if I owned  lets say a 1930's something Granada in Mint condition worth a fortune and it was owned by Earl Scruggs and Bela Fleck at one time and was purchased by Donald trump and given to me as gift for being a great friend, I would be glad to lend it out to any of my friends to play. Philosophical yes, sad that mankind has become so greedy and untrustful even worse. The way I figure it is my friend that nothing I have or own is to valuable for my friends and those they trust not to trust them for sharing and trust is what the world is about. If they screw me so what, the world isn't going to come to an end nor I am I going to let it bother me for I would trust my friends and those they trust for that is all I have in this world. Without truth and trust among friends you have nothing. If my friend came back and said hey man your banjo got run over by a red neck in a truck would I be happy no of course not. Would I lend him another banjo. Yes I would. Think about it Wyatt. Who are your friends? Why do you play banjo? who do you play it for? yourself or your friends?

---

  Wes  -  thanks for the softball.  Okay, so you now have been given a mint pre-war flathead Granada and you are generous enough to lend it out to friends to play!  That analogy reminds me of people who say that if they win a million dollars in the lottery, the first thing  they will do is give $100,000 to their church.  Yeah sure.  My pastor used to say that the Lord wants you to give 10% (if you believe in tithing) of what you do have   -   not 10% of what you wish you had.  If that is the case, I would expect you to lend what you do have to a good player who deserves to play a better banjo. Maybe you will   -   that's OK, it's your banjo.

In my case, I would let some of my banjos be loaned to a good friend.  I would let just about anyone play them in my presence, but I would think it unfair to the borrower to have them take responsibility to care for a pristine pre-war flathead outside my presence.  I sure would never ask, expect, or accept that responsibility for someone elses instrument.

Edited by - BanjoLink on 04/16/2011 08:12:22

bigmr_clean - Posted - 04/16/2011:  08:13:26

Wes, I agree with a lot you have said.  The only thing that makes me ill about some of these old banjo's is all of them ARE NOT in players hands. There are quite a few people that just have gobs of money and they have pre war gibson's and couldn't play if there life depended on it and never will be able to. They just don't have the talent. I played a 34 granada at IBMA a few years back, ALL original and the fella that handed it to me couldn't play. A banjo like that needs to be PLAYED and PLAYED the crap out of! Might be why the banjo didn't sound good at all too. It did not impress me at all. Course there also is this logic...He bought it and can use it for firewood if he wants. Touchy subject I guess. I don't know that I would buy a flathead if I have the money...I probably would, and would gladly let other people play it that I knew.

bigmr_clean - Posted - 04/16/2011:  08:18:20

quote:Unfortanatly there are a lot of people out there now a days that would do this...EX...barrowing something as simple as a lawnmower and returning it back with the engine blown up or outta oil or the deck's fell off. How about returning a  pre war with the neck broke?? Oiii that'd suck.

---

Originally posted by rudykizuty

Wes, I think the part you're failing to understand is that this discussion you've sparked is not really about banjos. It's about people.

I'm willing to give someone the benefit of the doubt, provided I know them well enough. But there most definitely is a point where one can be "too trusting". When someone has no appreciation for the value of your generosity and returns something of financial value to you in lesser condition than it was when lent out, most people would feel disrespected by that. I've experienced that. From that point on, my so called "friend" lost that trust I was previously willing to give him. And since then? Once burned, trust must be earned!! This is just basic human nature. 

What I find disconcerting is that you seem to blame the person who either got or fears getting burned for their lack of generosity. That's not fair. The fact that you would turn the other cheek after being disrespected clearly makes you different than most people. That's certainly not a bad thing...just different is all. 

Food for thought.....Perhaps your experience with Otis is based more on the trust built by the rapport and friendship you developed with him. I'd like to think that kindness and generosity are based more on characteristics of human nature and interaction than the value or purpose of material things, like banjos ;) 

---

RCONN - Posted - 04/16/2011:  08:21:36

I know of a case where a prewar banjo was loaned to a FAMILY member who couldn't afford to buy his own banjo. This FAMILY member promptly had the pre war flathead tone ring taken out and replaced with a new ring. He sold the pre war ring and pocketed the money  all without  the knowledge of the owner. That is why, if I could afford a pre war Gibson, it would never leave my sight . A banjo can be taken apart and put back together in about an hour.

Randall

BanjoLink - Posted - 04/16/2011:  08:40:21

Wes  -   I apologize for being a smarty about the "softball"  This shouldn't be a "gotcha" thread.  I know your heart is in the right place, but I am afraid what you have done here is created a straw man  -  a person who is wealthy,  who collects (hoards) banjos, who keeps them for themselves and will not allow them to be played by others who "deserve" them, does not trust others, etc., etc..  Does this person exist  -  well maybe, but in 40 years of playing and collecting, I have never met them.  You have set up a scenario where the rare exception to the rule is causing great problems throughout the music loving world.  I don't think it is or has ever been a problem  -  not that there may not be a few of them out there, but that it causes a problem.  I can't think of any group of people that I have ever come in contact with that are more generous with their time, instruments, and talent that those who love banjos.

I kind of like what Sonny Osborne told a ten year old kid (one of our members I think) when the young man asked Sonny to play his Granada.  "Well, you are young enough that if you drop it, you have the rest of your life to pay for it."

banjocollector - Posted - 04/16/2011:  09:12:01

quote:

---

Originally posted by BanjoLink



Wes  -   I apologize for being a smarty about the "softball"  This shouldn't be a "gotcha" thread.  I know your heart is in the right place, but I am afraid what you have done here is created a straw man  -  a person who is wealthy,  who collects (hoards) banjos, who keeps them for themselves and will not allow them to be played by others who "deserve" them, does not trust others, etc., etc..  Does this person exist  -  well maybe, but in 40 years of playing and collecting, I have never met them.  You have set up a scenario where the rare exception to the rule is causing great problems throughout the music loving world.  I don't think it is or has ever been a problem  -  not that there may not be a few of them out there, but that it causes a problem.  I can't think of any group of people that I have ever come in contact with that are more generous with their time, instruments, and talent that those who love banjos.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 Wise words indeed!

I think you have hit the nail right on the head and in a way that I could not express in such a kindly manner.

Derek

banjocollector.com

BanjoLink - Posted - 04/16/2011:  09:45:57

Thanks Derek! 

Johnny Carson once commented on a new Flu vaccine that had been developed under an order from President Gerald Ford when an outbreak of a certain type of flu was predicted, but never materialized.  He said " President Ford has developed a cure for which there is no known disease."

With all due respect, I think Wes has figured out a solution to which there is no known problem.

Wes Lassiter - Posted - 04/16/2011:  10:11:45

Derek  the straw man in my mind are the ones who need awareness of  what they possess. Maybe there are not that many but it seems there are more folks who either inherit these instruments and do not see this problem. Banjothon is the one place at least where a number of these instruments show up each year but from what I have heard it is a little tough to really hear an instrument for there are so many. I mainly wanted to raise the awareness of say someone who may have read this and will be more willing to share with someone else. you don't have to be a great player to enjoy the instrument. In fact that doesn't matter. It does matter that the Granada or more realisticly RB  250 or whatever someone has just to have is much better off making music. Another story, I had sitting under my bed an original Fresnel Lens (Handcut glass lens for an old lighthouse). I got sick of no one getting to enjoy it so I sold it and turned it into a bass for my wife and a car for my youngest son. The lens is going to be enjoyed by many, my wife is playing a really nice bass and my son is styling. I feel a whole lot better about that then having this valuable lens sit under my bed. No I would not let a kid play my pre war unless I was present. There is some common sense to this matter..  I hope maybe one banjo comes out from hiding for playing as a result of this. If it has it has been worth it...

wfawley - Posted - 04/16/2011:  10:16:52

Dang Wes ... you had me puzzled there for a minute. I was wondering what your Mrs was gonna do with a fish...... and then about the pecking order. Should the Mrs not get the car and the son the fish? ....Ya gotta read the fine details.

Wyatt

Edited by - wfawley on 04/16/2011 10:19:04

Wes Lassiter - Posted - 04/16/2011:  10:46:01

Yup the bass is a little stinky now

banjocollector - Posted - 04/16/2011:  11:25:16

Wes - You just don't get it -  the problem exists with your take on the subject.

Derek

banjocollector.com

Wes Lassiter - Posted - 04/16/2011:  11:48:06

With all due respect, sir you don't get it. Totally oblivious. Enjoy your collection

BANJO TONY - Posted - 04/16/2011:  14:36:22

Wes thats the way God wants us to live,not the way it is to bad.

steve davis - Posted - 04/16/2011:  14:47:38

It ain't a wealthy man that owns my banjos.

NYCJazz - Posted - 04/16/2011:  18:49:21

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjocollector

Derek

banjocollector.com

 

---

Derek

That's quite a lovely family you have there! That double resonator Paramount is a killer! The dragon OME is a sensory overload just sitting on the stand! I can only imagine how it sounds.

Well done!

Flathead75 - Posted - 04/16/2011:  20:00:04

I don't think were really talking about loaning these instruments out, but rather letting others play them when opportunity arises. Many pro's will let you play them after a show, I've been lucky enough to even have Sonny Osborn hand me his Granada ,,,wouldn't you know I didn't have my picks on me!

TB-4 Guy - Posted - 04/16/2011:  20:17:36

It's probably true that it's mainly rich collectors who are purchasing the important instruments at auctions and elsewhere. I know some of these folks personally and many of them play guitars and mandolins very well. I don't really know any banjo collectors but I'm certain that there are many out there. Collectors indulge themselves in quality instruments because they love them and also they like to play them. Often they will have the funds to undertake restorations that would otherwise go undone as well.

As to prices, it's more an issue of supply and demand. There are only so many pre-war banjos, guitars and mandolins available. There weren't that many made in that era, either, and that affects availability and therefore price. My 1962 Martin D-28 has a serial number in the 183XXX range. C.F. Martin has built close to a million and a half instruments now I understand - more than a million since I bought mine. So there really aren't that many old guitars (and banjos) to buy anymore and that has increased prices out of the range of ordinary folks.

The same thing has happened to vintage automobiles and motorcycles. Used to be when I was a kid you could buy a 1940 Ford Coupe or a 1947 Harley Knucklehead for less than $200. Not anymore. Prices are through the roof and originals are few and far between. At a certain point, the law of supply and demand takes over and only the most well off can indulge.

As to lending instruments to the less well-funded...well that's for other folks. I lent a guitar to a friend to play a gig once and it took me two months to get it back. It had a whole bunch of scrapes and dents when I got it back, too. I'll never do that again.

Banjo Saint - Posted - 04/17/2011:  06:12:21

While there are no doubt examples of well healed banjo collectors that are not great players, the unequivocal statement that somehow links income or wealth to proficiency on a banjo is not believable. If anyone can provide verifiable evidence of such, I would appreciate it.

I would like to see the top professionals playing great instruments so that all of us could enjoy them. Them includes both the instruments and musicians. This begs the question, how many banjo players make their full time living by playing banjo? This includes both playing, recording or other banjo related endeavors. Somehow I think there are enough prewar, let alone good post war banjos to meet this need.

kygle - Posted - 04/17/2011:  06:46:50

That´s the whole idea of collecting whatever it may be. To get the best and as many as them as possible.

Violins and guitars are not different nor Chinese yixin teapots. The reason money is worth something is that you can buy whatever you want. Just take a look at a -58 Gibson Les Paul Standard.

kind regards

Brett - Posted - 04/17/2011:  06:48:01

I can understand the thought they are so great they should be played, but that's out of our control, as are the market driven prices.

bobbybanjo - Posted - 04/17/2011:  07:36:57

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wes Lassiter

It is sad for the majority of the really good instruments are being bought up and hoarded by the wealthy. These instruments deserve to be treasured for the music they make and not treasured for someones portfolio or for bragging rights. The other sad truth is most of these collectors couldn't pick their way out of a wet paper bag.

---

This thread has covered enough ground that I had to look back and see what was the core idea that started it. 

There seem to be three separate points; 1) It's bad that the wealthy are buying pw banjos, 2) the instruments "deserve" some sort of treatment and 3) Most collectors can't play the banjo.

With regard to point #1, the price of the banjo is pretty critical in determining who can buy it.  A pw flathead can only be purchased by buyers who can afford $60k or more so it is certainly true that the "wealthy" are buying pw banjos but there is no reason that should be "bad" is there?  It's just the economic result of the price of the banjo not the result of some sort of undesirable behavior on the part of a "wealthy" person. 

Point #2 is just silly.  Banjos are inanimate objects made of metal and wood and don't "deserve" anything any more than a table or chair. 

With regard to #3, I don't know that it is true that "Most collectors don't play the banjo."  Has this been studied?  And...even if it was true then what difference does it make?  Collectors perform a valuable service, they preserve items from decay and destruction.  Some collectors pass their collections on to museums when they die; we have all read posts on this forum from collectors who are searching for alternatives for their collections after their death. 

The occasional condemnation of collectors serves no purpose around here and misses a lot of important points that all lead to the same end result; collectors contribute to the preservation of these instruments and without collectors restoring, maintaining and protecting them future generations would have nothing but a bunch worn out banjos mated with Asian replacement parts.

Sheldon - Posted - 04/17/2011:  08:02:14

I have a pre-war and several (5 or 6?) other top quality banjos. Can my playing ability do them justice? . . . NO!

I don't have to explain or justify my ownership to anyone but my wife!

BUT, I can afford to own them . . . AND, in the words of an old country song:

" I got em boy, and that makes me THE WINNER!"

Sheldon

BANJOBOB549 - Posted - 04/17/2011:  08:36:16

Those who are not wealthy also buy Pre-Wars. Would venture to say more are owned by non wealthy than wealthy. When a person takes a second mortgage to satisfy their desire,,I dont consider those folks rich. Its happened before and will happen again. Its a matter of not being satisfied until mission accomplished.  Thats Life,,We pass thru this world only once,,Enjoy,,,you aint here very long,,,,,,,

Wes Lassiter - Posted - 04/17/2011:  09:52:44

That is true, I had a friend of mine advise me just after I got my style 2 to play the hell out of it. When that certain banjo comes along during my reference to it, I will take whatever it takes to get it so I can play the hell out of it as well. I am looking forward to others enjoying playing it as well. I had the fortune of playing an all original style 2 flathead at Cabin Fever. What an amazing instrument it was. It needed work and in a bad way. Sure hope that fella decides to get to a Doctor soon or it will just be collectable heirloom.

I am aquiring a 1929 TB 3 this May. The first thing I am going to do is take that bucket of tenor parts and let Steve Huber cut down the wood ring add an HR 30 to it and have Richie Dotson build me a new neck to the specs of my banjo now. Now that is collecting!!! I am actually thinking about going with a calf skin head to get those deeper resonant tones. This TB is in mint shape. I am looking forward to what comes out of it when it turns into a five!!

Forrest - Posted - 04/17/2011:  10:05:31

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wes Lassiter

This TB is in mint shape. I am looking forward to what comes out of it when it turns into a five!!

 

---

Congratulations, Wes!  I can't wait to check it out once you have the banjo converted and finished.

Wes Lassiter - Posted - 04/17/2011:  10:28:16

I know I can't either Alan. How about that Granada Jim had or still has maybe. That had your name written all over it

Forrest - Posted - 04/17/2011:  10:32:07

I got email from Jim last Tuesday that it had already sold!  I see one of those in my future. 

Wes Lassiter - Posted - 04/17/2011:  10:54:00

That was a really great banjo. The fact it sold so fast does not surprise me in the least.

John Steele - Posted - 04/17/2011:  11:38:03

>>There are a lot of us hungry players out here who would like nothing more than to spend some time with these fine instruments as they deserve to have the time spent with them as they were intended and that is to ringing out sweet music. We can't afford them but would love to experience the soul within.

That's a beautiful piece of idealistic prose. It gives me a warm fuzzy all over, until the cold harsh face of reality rears it's ugly head.

Last week I was contacted by a guy to see if he could borrow a pedal steel of mine to do a session.  I told him I'd bring it to my gig, and he could take it from there.  The guy shows up at the gig expecting to walk home 5 miles in the pouring rain carrying my 60 pound Emmons.  Safe to say, it didn't happen.

If I had gone through with that, it wouldn't have made me kind, benevolent, a christian, or generous.  It would have made me an idiot.   And why does this guy, who's older than me, not own his own instrument ? You might say it's because he's not "rich" like me.  I don't consider myself rich, but I can tell you he's also not as hard-working as me, not as organized as me, not as dedicated as me, he doesn't have the foresight I do, and he hasn't spent a fraction of his life on the job that I have.

This guy likes to borrow banjos he can't play too.  In fact, any of the hand-wringers on this thread who'd like to lend him your pre-war Mastertone to walk home in the pouring rain with it, let me know, I'll give you his number.

- John  

Gymbal31 - Posted - 04/17/2011:  11:47:27

Wasn't Earl Scruggs advertising at all his shows in the fifties and sixties for any pre-war banjos people might have because he wanted to buy them?  And how many pre-wars does Jim Mills own?  Kenny Ingram has at least one, I've seen him play it.  Bela Fleck, that snobby rich kid used to drag his banjo out into the streets of Boston to play for money!  That's no way to treat a banjo!  Have you seen the streets of Boston??

Let's round them all up, boys!  Cause iffin I can't have a pre-war Gibson banjo, ain't nobody deserves a pre-war Gibson banjo!!

What a fabulous bonfire those rims and original tenor necks will make!!

Wes Lassiter - Posted - 04/17/2011:  13:22:28

quote:

---

Originally posted by John Steele

>>There are a lot of us hungry players out here who would like nothing more than to spend some time with these fine instruments as they deserve to have the time spent with them as they were intended and that is to ringing out sweet music. We can't afford them but would love to experience the soul within.

 

That's a beautiful piece of idealistic prose. It gives me a warm fuzzy all over, until the cold harsh face of reality rears it's ugly head.

Last week I was contacted by a guy to see if he could borrow a pedal steel of mine to do a session.  I told him I'd bring it to my gig, and he could take it from there.  The guy shows up at the gig expecting to walk home 5 miles in the pouring rain carrying my 60 pound Emmons.  Safe to say, it didn't happen.

If I had gone through with that, it wouldn't have made me kind, benevolent, a christian, or generous.  It would have made me an idiot.   And why does this guy, who's older than me, not own his own instrument ? You might say it's because he's not "rich" like me.  I don't consider myself rich, but I can tell you he's also not as hard-working as me, not as organized as me, not as dedicated as me, he doesn't have the foresight I do, and he hasn't spent a fraction of his life on the job that I have.

This guy likes to borrow banjos he can't play too.  In fact, any of the hand-wringers on this thread who'd like to lend him your pre-war Mastertone to walk home in the pouring rain with it, let me know, I'll give you his number.

- John  

 

 Now this dude has some issues that need help. whew wee

 

 

---

nitram - Posted - 04/17/2011:  14:59:15

quote:

If I could choose whether to own a great prewar flathead or to play the dickens out of what

I have, I would rather be the great player. I have however accepted the fact, that I will never do either one.

---

Originally posted by bobbybanjo

quote:

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Originally posted by Wes Lassiter

It is sad for the majority of the really good instruments are being bought up and hoarded by the wealthy. These instruments deserve to be treasured for the music they make and not treasured for someones portfolio or for bragging rights. The other sad truth is most of these collectors couldn't pick their way out of a wet paper bag.

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This thread has covered enough ground that I had to look back and see what was the core idea that started it. 

There seem to be three separate points; 1) It's bad that the wealthy are buying pw banjos, 2) the instruments "deserve" some sort of treatment and 3) Most collectors can't play the banjo.

With regard to point #1, the price of the banjo is pretty critical in determining who can buy it.  A pw flathead can only be purchased by buyers who can afford $60k or more so it is certainly true that the "wealthy" are buying pw banjos but there is no reason that should be "bad" is there?  It's just the economic result of the price of the banjo not the result of some sort of undesirable behavior on the part of a "wealthy" person. 

Point #2 is just silly.  Banjos are inanimate objects made of metal and wood and don't "deserve" anything any more than a table or chair. 

With regard to #3, I don't know that it is true that "Most collectors don't play the banjo."  Has this been studied?  And...even if it was true then what difference does it make?  Collectors perform a valuable service, they preserve items from decay and destruction.  Some collectors pass their collections on to museums when they die; we have all read posts on this forum from collectors who are searching for alternatives for their collections after their death. 

The occasional condemnation of collectors serves no purpose around here and misses a lot of important points that all lead to the same end result; collectors contribute to the preservation of these instruments and without collectors restoring, maintaining and protecting them future generations would have nothing but a bunch worn out banjos mated with Asian replacement parts.

 

 

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banjoez - Posted - 04/18/2011:  08:57:38

Dear Banjo Police,



The core of the matter is that we have all been led to believe that the only way to reach banjo nirvana is to own a prewar Gibson. It's been a feeding frenzy. That's the primary reason prices are so high. Pickers have this fantasy they will sound like JD or Earl if only they had a prewar. I just don't buy that anymore (pun intended). When I was young and foolish I did. (Well, maybe I haven't shaken the foolish part yet but I'm definitely over the young part!!). Yes, after owning a couple prewar's, they can be wonderful instruments and some are better than others but there are also newer generation instruments and rim/ring combinations that are excellent. A good player can get good tone out of just about any good quality instrument setup properly. Most players would be better off chasing HOW to play rather than chasing WHAT to play.



Let the PW collectors/players do what they want, it's their money and they owe NO ONE anything. I could care less whether they let other folks play them or not. Jim M. has aggressively purchased his banjos through the years and I'm pretty sure part of the reasons he allows folks to play them in a controlled environment is, shall we say, business purposes?  Gotta get a R.O.I. somehow. Smart man!! 

Edited by - banjoez on 04/18/2011 09:00:09

steve davis - Posted - 04/18/2011:  09:33:58

I don't have an opinion about other people's stuff.

sideways - Posted - 04/18/2011:  14:27:08

I do. It's NONE OF MY BUSINESS!

Wes Lassiter - Posted - 04/18/2011:  15:38:41

Boy it is hard to believe this caused such a stir. I have learned you get pretty much the same response from the same individuals some folks are just plain mean. I have also been reinforced that those same few would argue with a dead horse if they could and optimism is not something found easily. I for the most part just love playing my banjo. I think I am much better at that then trying to get folks who own nice banjos agree that sharing what they have with others make any sense. Idealistic yes, sad that it is, yup. Better watch out, I might just be right around the corner seeing if you will let me borrow your prized banjo and ask to keep it for a while. Good day folks..

copron - Posted - 04/18/2011:  19:15:19

WOW!!...................................I didn't know owning banjos was so damn complicated.

Flying Eagle - Posted - 04/18/2011:  19:46:24

It should be part of the "social compact" - prewars for the middle class!  Someone get on the horn to Washington.  Surely they can spare a $billion or two of the "economic stimulus package" for the cause.

JW

Flathead75 - Posted - 04/18/2011:  20:24:10

        JW, Hilarious, if it wasn't the way things are done in Washington! I will just say that I am glad that many pre-war banjo owners, and some of the best pro's are willing to let others try them out. Not loan them out, I would never ask that, but many have let me play them.

       And, I know Jim well enough to know he loves these banjo's so much and he wants to preserve them for other generations to experience. I wouldn't question his motives as none of his flatheads are currently for sale, I asked and he said he really wanted to hold onto them for a while longer, Yes he sells conversions quite regularly, but never tried to sell anyone anything last weekend, though he did have books and CD's laid out on his desk. He had as much fun as we did and we all laughed and cut up all day! If you get a chance go to a seminar when he does them again! He and Kim are fine people and excellent host's!

BanjoLink - Posted - 04/18/2011:  20:40:24

Wes  -    I don't think anyone is trying to be "mean", but I suspect that some folks that own these old banjos (and others that don't) are fed up with being told why they own them and what they should do with them.  The "arguing with a dead horse" statement is probably correct   -   only directed at the wrong folks.  Let's leave class warfare to the folks that do it best  -  politicians!

Voyageur - Posted - 04/19/2011:  07:27:16

Wes thinks banjos have a soul or spirit and suffer if they are not played. bobbybanjo says this is nonsense. That is plain-spoken but not "mean." I do not think banjos have a soul or spirit. They are material objects created by human beings, and we do not have the power to literally breathe life into an object. However, I respect the care and craftsmanship that a instrument maker put into his or her creation. If I made a banjo, I would want it to be played. But if it became very precious and rare, and someone wanted to preserve it for future generations to admire in a museum, or to treasure it in their home in a glass case, that would be fine, too. I think it is the spirit of the maker and of the people who played and valued it over the years that we thus honor. The banjo itself is inanimate.

Wes also thinks people with rare, expensive banjos ought to share by lending their banjos out to other players. Many people think this is a bad idea, and they say so without hesitation. This does not make them mean, and Wes, it isn't right to use that word against them.

The degree to which we choose to share our possessions is a personal decision, and we have different comfort levels. For example, I own three nice Native American flutes. Some of my students are NA, and last week one of them told me she was doing a project on NA flutes. I took mine to the school to show her, and ended up allowing her to take one of them home to learn to play it. If she puts in the effort and learns, I will probably give it to her. Does this mean I am infinitely generous? No. The same girl told me several weeks ago that her sister and family were looking for a place to live. Did I invite them to come and live in my house with me? No, and if someone suggests that we all ought to share everything and that I was selfish and mean for not doing so, they can take their "idealism" for a long walk around the block.

Wes, I think you are certainly a kind-hearted and open-handed person. But you've suggested that people are mean, selfish, non-optimistic and argumentative when all they've done is have a different opinion than you about the rights and responsibilities of ownership. And you've stuck pretty hard to your guns here - would it be OK to say that you would "argue with a dead horse?"

NYCJazz - Posted - 04/19/2011:  09:44:53

What is it about owning a prewar banjo that makes them think that they will live forever?

Maybe I can get a government grant to study this phenomenon.