Wes Lassiter - Posted - 04/26/2011:  19:07:11

Peace John.

BanjoLink - Posted - 04/26/2011:  21:41:40

Thank you, my friend!

Wes Lassiter - Posted - 04/27/2011:  03:50:14

No problem

DantheBanjoMan - Posted - 04/27/2011:  07:45:46

I'm sorry I came late to this discussion.  Wyatt said:

"I find it disheartening .... that collectors tend to deify the work of the dead, and vilify the work of the living. I encountered a guy once who collects contemporary builders' open back banjos. Imagine that .... a collection comprised of work of the ...gasp... living!"

That sums up my attitude exactly.  Wyatt isn't a position to say this, so I'll say it for him.  Look at the engraving on an old Vega neck and compare it to the work that Wyatt does and Wyatt's is far superior, so I'd be be much happier with one of Wyatt's new creations.  Besides, I'd much rather have something that was the work of an individual artisan and not the product of a factory. 

I feel lucky to be alive during a time when there are talented individual builders as well as companies like Deering and Stelling that are making such fine instruments.  I have several instruments that are much nicer than a player of my skill level deserves, and I never find myself wishing I had a $30,000 banjo.

NYCJazz - Posted - 04/27/2011:  15:09:35

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wes Lassiter

You know Nyc Jazz some how I get the feeling you don't like me much. I do know the feeling is mutual. So lets just leave it at that. If you cannot make a positive comment go somewhere else and do something more for all of us. GROW UP!!!

---

I really enjoy being scolded about having an opinion on tenor banjos... an instrument that I've played for nearly 40 years.

It's not personal.

bindle stiff jim - Posted - 04/27/2011:  16:22:31

quote:

---

Originally posted by DantheBanjoMan

I'm sorry I came late to this discussion.  Wyatt said:

"I find it disheartening .... that collectors tend to deify the work of the dead, and vilify the work of the living. I encountered a guy once who collects contemporary builders' open back banjos. Imagine that .... a collection comprised of work of the ...gasp... living!"

That sums up my attitude exactly.  Wyatt isn't a position to say this, so I'll say it for him.  Look at the engraving on an old Vega neck and compare it to the work that Wyatt does and Wyatt's is far superior, so I'd be be much happier with one of Wyatt's new creations.  Besides, I'd much rather have something that was the work of an individual artisan and not the product of a factory. 

I feel lucky to be alive during a time when there are talented individual builders as well as companies like Deering and Stelling that are making such fine instruments.  I have several instruments that are much nicer than a player of my skill level deserves, and I never find myself wishing I had a $30,000 banjo.

---

 I agree with this 100%. I've never understood the obsession.

Wes Lassiter - Posted - 04/27/2011:  17:57:45

Frankly I like any banjo that is good to play and sounds good. It just so happens pre wars sound really good to me and obviously to a lot of other folks who cherish playing them. The sound is distinct in an way that is hard to describe. It also is true that they are valued to be collected by some and stashed away for these collections. It is also true that many tenors and plectrums are converted to five strings and the popularity of doing so is growing by leaps and bounds. I admit it, if I find a good late 20's or 30's Gibson tenor, that banjo is going to be a five as soon as i can get it changed, but with the care to save the original neck hopefully case and will store the 2/1 tuners with the neck and add 4/1 just because I prefer those tuners. I don't agree with people converting banjos and selling off parts or seperarting those parts for any reason. You never know one day someone might want to turn it back into a tenor or plectrum. I do know that my value of my 33 style 2 is more than what I paid for it. Why. people have offered me more money. I just like to see these banjos played and not put away. It is the persons right to do whatever they want sure thats fine. I just like to see folks faces and expressions as they listen and comment that was a really nice sounding banjo. I love telling the Gibson story as well. This is about the music and the people who love the music generated from these instruments first. I love to play my banjo more than anything. I love these old instruments. just don't like to see them taken out of the picking circles that folks mainly enjoy them for.

bindle stiff jim - Posted - 04/27/2011:  18:16:33

I'm of the opinion that if a person wants to convert and sell off any or all parts of any banjo they own, it's nobody's business but their own. For anyone to admonish the actions is just being a busy body.

I've played/heard played more than a few old Gibson banjos and just don't understand the obsession. Sure, in the hands of a master they sound great, but so do any of my Omes or Stellings. I have no doubt if it came down to sound of banjo versus being part of a limited availability club, 3/4 of those owning one is the later.

To each their own.

Wes Lassiter - Posted - 04/27/2011:  19:23:21

One of my favorite banjos is a 1970 Baldwin style D. I am proud to own it and play it

biganvils - Posted - 04/27/2011:  19:25:48

"What is it about owning a prewar banjo that makes them think that they will live forever?

Maybe I can get a government grant to study this phenomenon."  ---NYCJazz

That's an opinion on tenor banjos? You a politician or something?  lol

TR Dockery - Posted - 04/27/2011:  20:43:28

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wes Lassiter

One of my favorite banjos is a 1970 Baldwin style D. I am proud to own it and play it

---

 What!? You got more than one banjo?!  You know, in some circles, that would make you a collector; somebody git a rope!

banjoez - Posted - 04/28/2011:  05:48:31

I really wanted to stay out of this one but I gotta just say one thing. You say it is such a shame that all the rich folks are buying up all the original prewars and salting them away but I noticed you have a TB-2 conversion which means it's originality has been destroyed (cut rim) and therefore that in itself  prevents anyone from ever playing/owning it again as a true prewar original. Some would even say with a new neck and tone ring it is really not even a prewar anymore. Just a modern banjo with some old parts. Seems to be some twisted thinking here.

Wes Lassiter - Posted - 04/28/2011:  06:05:59

Seems your thinking is as twisted as mine based on your five.

banjoez - Posted - 04/28/2011:  06:07:40

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wes Lassiter

Seems your thinking is as twisted as mine based on your five.

---

Huh?

Wes Lassiter - Posted - 04/28/2011:  07:53:57

I felt so strongly about my thinking being twisted when you yourself own a conversion as to say they are not collectable or going to be worth anything is well lets just say not quite on the mark.  It just so happens that these fives for you own one as far as I can see are not losing value but seem to be gaining value, especially the ones with the original necks cases tuners etc. Anyone who knows anything knows the rims are cut and a tone ring added, so what? I can only imagine the instrument if converted back would sound better. So if you don't want that sound in a tenor with the tone ring buy one that hasn't been converted. The whole point here on this thread has been to raise awareness to folks who have instruments that they are collecting to be more liberal with them being played. Not if your opinion whether this wrong or right. Funny how confrontational (myself included) we all get when it comes to subject matter such as this. I really hope that it comes down to what music you are playing. After all ultimately it is about the music. The real proofs in pudding in what you are creating in your music. As I have said before, I just enjoy seeing people enjoy these instruments whether listening to them or playing them. It doesn't matter whether the instrument is a  1934 granada or a Kay learner banjo that is playable. They should not be stuck in closets or show cases all the time. They need playing so people can hear them and enjoy playing and learning more music. How can anyone disagree with that. I might mention I was just offered a substantial amount of money for my 2. it is lot more than I paid for it. I wouldn't dare sell it for I enjoy playing the fire out of it!!

Wes Lassiter - Posted - 04/28/2011:  08:09:57

Do you play your banjo and like it? I think that what matters...

bobbybanjo - Posted - 04/28/2011:  08:21:54

In your first post you said:

"It is sad for the majority of the really good instruments are being bought up and hoarded by the wealthy. These instruments deserve to be treasured for the music they make and not treasured for someones portfolio or for bragging rights. The other sad truth is most of these collectors couldn't pick their way out of a wet paper bag.  These banjos need to be played and played a lot. if you know someone who is hoarding these nice instruments talk to them about selling them so someone can enjoy playing them. They do not deserve to sit in a closet or some display case. They need to be played and played a whole lot."

There have been a lot of posts that pointed out that 1) The owners of the banjos are the rightful ones to determine who plays them and how they are played, 2) People should mind their own business and not tell others what they should be doing with their property, 3) Banjos are inanimate objects that don't "deserve" anything or "need" anything, 4) It doesn't matter if the owner of a banjo can "pick his way out of a wet paper bag" or not, if the banjo belongs to him he gets to determine its use.

I was wondering if any of the comments in this thread had changed your mind about the points you made in your first post or if your viewpoints had changed, could you comment?

alphamikefoxtrot - Posted - 04/28/2011:  09:42:13

quote:

---

 

 

Oh, another thing:  Leave my 1934 Granada Flathead out for a jam session or gig so others can enjoy it, spill drinks on it, bump it up against the mike stand, etc. because "The tone that is enjoyed is far more valuable than a frickin scratch". 

 

---

 There's definitely something to preserving an instrument to be played vs. allowing others to enjoy it to their (potentially destructive) hearts' content.  As far as instruments having a 'soul' or 'spirit' that's hogwash, the act of creating it / music created with it is another story, that's an input and result from the artist / musician.

Wes Lassiter - Posted - 04/28/2011:  10:40:07

I still believe it is sad that instruments that are considered collectable or not are put under beds or displayed for ones collection without being played. I was wrong to say it was mainly the wealthy. I used a poor choice of words saying the wealthy couldn't pick out of a wet paper bag. As far as owners having the rights to determine what happens to the instruments and who plays them has to be the case whether I like it or not. Awareness to the instruments not being played was my main goal. As you have read I have my own personal situation with Otis's banjo. I guess I didn't mind my own business about the subject so in this case it is a moot point. I will say if we did not want to know about the banjos others have and want to play them by always minding our business less probably would be played. As far as a banjo being an inanimate object that does not need anything a banjo that is not being played is just that an inanimate object. I agree with that. It becomes less inanimate when being played at least in my mind.

All in all it was a learning experience more in human nature for me and how passionate folks are about the instruments and feelings toward them. That is good to me and to care about  a tenor being converted and not turned into a five is understandable for those who play tenor or plectrum. That shows the older tenor banjos are cared about at least more than I thought they were. It is good people care about different aspects of what they do for all is a contribution to this world of music somehow some way.

Being a player who devotes three to five hours a day to my music, the instruments and the tone they produce is my passion. I from a personal standpoint like what happens when a late twenties to late thirties Gibson TB or plectrum sounds like converted for the tone they put out with a good tone ring requires my personal needs in what I am trying to convey to myself and others tonally.

My viewpoints have changed somewhat in that I will be more sensitive to other peoples perception that are not mine. I still contend it is a mistake for an instrument to sit  not played for it is not fulfilling the function it was built for. I make pots that people come from all over to buy. They have two basic functions. One is to look at and accentuate their lives through enjoying form and visual stimulation and function from where someone uses the object through cooking with it or drinking or eating out of it. I prefer the latter. To me a banjo is a functional item. I don't like to see my 50.00 coffee not used either. Expensive mugs yes, great to drink out of even better. Good looking banjo yes sounds good, even better.

A banjo that sits and is not played is just that. A banjo that is played just sounds better to my ears. What are you going to hear if you hear nothing? Yes this has been a good experience for me and I hope I have raised awareness a little. That is about it. Thanks for your questions and I apologize if I was harsh. Sometimes emotions get in the way of my common sense.

bobbybanjo - Posted - 04/28/2011:  10:47:38

Very well said, Wes!

TR Dockery - Posted - 04/28/2011:  11:27:40

"I still contend it is a mistake for an instrument to sit not played for it is not fulfilling the function it was built for. " 

That is one of the biggest reasons that makes it so exciting to find and buy them where they were just collecting dust before and bring them back into use.  When I have one in my hands that was owned by someone who has passed on, I also think of that person and the joy that instrument brought into their lives and those they entertained.  My '29 TPF Granada came with a pretty good collection of pictures, musicians union cards, hotel entertainment contracts, newspaper clippings, and such of the original owner whose estate I bought it from.  It is one of my favorite banjos, but I don't take it out much, mostly because of a comment some local jackass doctor (and even more of a hack himself at playing) made to me about another nice banjo I had at the time to the effect that I should be able to play better than I do if I am going to bring a piece like that around, just because I didn't want to take a lead break and was happy to do back-up stuff.  As he was the big fish in his pond, I think he felt threatened at some level by my presence quite honestly.  I got to wondering how many other folks felt that way and decided to wait until I could run with the big dogs on any lead break.  I play okay, and better than alot of people I hear showing up at jams in many instances, but I won't embarrass myself trying to play something out of my reach for speed or that isn't part of my repertoir.  I still play a lot at home--in the closet, if you will--and I still collect, albeit at the lowest level that I would even consider calling myself a collector.  I still have my old Ibanez/Smith Frankenstein banjo, but I hardly touch it; I am only keeping it because my daughter wants it left to her someday, as I originally learned on that banjo.  I like to think my first grand child will learn on it, if I am so lucky to see the day.   As for my "collection", I rotate my toys a couple of weeks at a time and they usually get played an hour or so a day.

Happy trails,

Randy in Germantown, TN

steve davis - Posted - 04/28/2011:  13:25:30

There a great many "good" banjos besides pre-war Gibsons.Cox banjos are very fine,for instance.

BanjoLink - Posted - 04/28/2011:  14:30:49

Quote:  "because of a comment some local jackass doctor (and even more of a hack himself at playing) made to me about another nice banjo I had at the time to the effect that I should be able to play better than I do if I am going to bring a piece like that around, just because I didn't want to take a lead break and was happy to do back-up stuff. "

What a jerk  -  I wonder if he could perform a banjoectomy on himself?

So Wes, what do you suggest I do with my "collection" of Edgefield pottery.  I'm starting to feel a little guilty for not letting my wife pour hot grease or sorghum in them.  I guess we will have to start salting our bear meat and pork and storing them in the pots rather than in the freezer.

maryzcox - Posted - 04/28/2011:  15:21:28

Randy,
Sorry that man was mean to you about your banjo.
Ignore him and take that
Grenada out and play it anyway--lots of folks will love to see and hear it.
That other guy is just jealous and competitive. Many banjoists are nice and shaoring, but some are not. It drives them crazy if you ignore the hateful comments and bring out your good banjos anyway.
If he took a shot at you its because he thinks you and your banjo are threatening his territory. When men do that to me and I laugh and don't fall for that, some of them will actually go over and insult my husband and his guitar playing. Thankfully he is solid and he doesn't let it bother him. But he does point them out to me, to avoid :)

Wes Lassiter - Posted - 04/28/2011:  15:24:15

Bear meat just has to be better with pottery. I can't imagine taking a juicy bite out of that delicious meat on Correlware. It probably wouldn't taste as good..

Mumble Peg - Posted - 04/28/2011:  16:38:18

You know what? Them rich folks is buying up all the Rolls Royces too.  Gittin so a little banjer pickin dude like me can't find one.

banjodawg - Posted - 04/28/2011:  17:37:24

quote:

---

... As for my "collection", I rotate my toys a couple of weeks at a time and they usually get played an hour or so a day.

Happy trails,

Randy in Germantown, TN

 

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Now that inspires me to set a goal!  A banjo for every month of the year...

 - Bill in Maryland

TR Dockery - Posted - 04/28/2011:  17:39:52

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjodawg

 

---

Now that inspires me to set a goal!  A banjo for every month of the year...

 - Bill in Maryland

 

I wish!  I'll have to settle for one for every season right now.  I will also have to settle for taking my enjoyment from that until I can give this playing endeavor an honest two hours a day or more.  One hour just doesn't hack it.  Maybe it works for some but I can barely hold on to what I have learned with just an hour a day--even after 35 years.  Come on, retirement!

Edited by - TR Dockery on 04/28/2011 17:45:40

Orph - Posted - 04/29/2011:  04:56:34

I am a collector and a novice player.  Someday I hope that my playing skills are equal to the instruments that I own.  The Gruhn article has it exactly right, though.  I have read accounts written in the 1870's of modifications to old Italian violins that would make your hair curl, such as varnishing the inside, painting a family crest on  the back, etc.  The same kind of thinking, that you can do anything you want to an old banjo, can be found on banjohangout today.  You can find classifieds  that say installing geared tuners was "well worth it, even though they ruin the antique value" of the instrument.  Other players look at the brace on a Stewart neck and proclaim that it can be fitted with steel strings.  A pony banjo was recently advertised with the statement that, since there are no more banjo orchestras, it can now fulfill its modern function.  If there were no collectors interested in authenticity, there would be no authentic instruments left.

Wes Lassiter - Posted - 04/29/2011:  06:17:18

quote:

---

Originally posted by Orph

I am a collector and a novice player.  Someday I hope that my playing skills are equal to the instruments that I own.  The Gruhn article has it exactly right, though.  I have read accounts written in the 1870's of modifications to old Italian violins that would make your hair curl, such as varnishing the inside, painting a family crest on  the back, etc.  The same kind of thinking, that you can do anything you want to an old banjo, can be found on banjohangout today.  You can find classifieds  that say installing geared tuners was "well worth it, even though they ruin the antique value" of the instrument.  Other players look at the brace on a Stewart neck and proclaim that it can be fitted with steel strings.  A pony banjo was recently advertised with the statement that, since there are no more banjo orchestras, it can now fulfill its modern function.  If there were no collectors interested in authenticity, there would be no authentic instruments left.

---

OK,here we go again hold on I am ducking my head, incoming oouch, now that is over. The functionality of the instrument is deemed by the owner and if their perception of changes of instrument pertains to sound and what they are trying to create music wise doesn't that value far eclipse the monetary value for some looming collector licking his chops looking for an investment? The music he or she creates potentially could be worth far more than money!!!

steve davis - Posted - 04/29/2011:  06:23:24

Everybody doesn't feel or see things the same way.What is worth the most to you isn't necessarily worth anything to someone else.

We value things differently.One isn't more or less right than the other.

Banjo Saint - Posted - 04/30/2011:  06:24:00

I don't know Steve, but I agree with him.  This topic has gone round and round.  Clearly, there are some lessons learned here.  First, Let us agree to disagree and leave the judging of each others motives out of it.  Second, take care in stating facts when supporting your position.  The facts should be more than opinions and have evidence behind them.  Third, take care to not allow predispositions to cloud one's thinking.  This thread has gotten a little too close to politics for me.  I am sure there are many more lessons here and would love to hear them.

If you use a little moderation in starting or replying to a post, you will likely get a moderate reply.  If you bite someone, you may get bitten back.  This seems pretty simple to me.

If we are here, we share common ground, the love of banjos. 

Orph - Posted - 04/30/2011:  08:55:06

Thank you  Banjo Saint for reminding us of the high ground!  You have earned your halo today. To the others, if you really like old banjos, you should start a thread about How Not to Goof Up Your Old Banjo.  If more people were concerned about this, there would be more old instruments in original condition for both players and collectors. Also, players please do not  conclude that all collectors are involved for a profit.  Personally, if I wanted to make a lot of money on an investment, I would not be buying banjos.  The time to do that was 30 years ago..

steve davis - Posted - 04/30/2011:  11:14:21

I'm having a vision of Andy Rooney saying,"Doncha HATE it when those rich people won't pass their banjos around?"

Wes Lassiter - Posted - 04/30/2011:  11:36:17

Steve there you are dude!! That is a line for a great song.

Bronx banjo - Posted - 04/30/2011:  12:25:01

As much as I would love for someone to plunk a prewar flathead Granada in my lap, I harbor no resentment that this will not happen. I don't think hoard is the right word. Do museums hoard art? These instruments should be preserved and protected; I can't come up with a reason why they should be played and passed around. I know banjos were meant to be played but that's what newer, less valuable banjos are for. I like the idea that their values are so high. It means that they will be (hopefully) maintained in the best possible condition. Every time I look at The Curtis McPeake RB 75 in Jim Mills' book, I wince because someone at some point thought it wasn't fancy enough and added inlays to it. That wouldn't have happened if it were valued at $150,000 at the time. I take a different slant on this issue. I've tried to imagine what it would have been like had Gibson continued its product line up to the present. For example, if there were such an animal as a 1965 Granada with the same visuals and construction as the 1934 version and on up to 2011. Would we value the 1934 version as highly as we do now? How would we view the exalted prewar sound if that were the case. My frustration has been that I'm in love with the visual aspects of the prewar Gibson designs and up until recently, copyists have been falling short of the mark. Since this is no longer the case, I'm dumb enough to be happy with a couple of KK10 conversions with great tone, great looks (close enough to satisfy me). So let the collectors collect, the preservers preserve. It's not like the world is being deprived of their tone. The prewar sound is a bunch of bunk anyway. The greatness of these banjos lies in our minds. Nothing wrong with that.

Wes Lassiter - Posted - 04/30/2011:  14:36:11

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bronx banjo

As much as I would love for someone to plunk a prewar flathead Granada in my lap, I harbor no resentment that this will not happen. I don't think hoard is the right word. Do museums hoard art? These instruments should be preserved and protected; I can't come up with a reason why they should be played and passed around. I know banjos were meant to be played but that's what newer, less valuable banjos are for. I like the idea that their values are so high. It means that they will be (hopefully) maintained in the best possible condition. Every time I look at The Curtis McPeake RB 75 in Jim Mills' book, I wince because someone at some point thought it wasn't fancy enough and added inlays to it. That wouldn't have happened if it were valued at $150,000 at the time. I take a different slant on this issue. I've tried to imagine what it would have been like had Gibson continued its product line up to the present. For example, if there were such an animal as a 1965 Granada with the same visuals and construction as the 1934 version and on up to 2011. Would we value the 1934 version as highly as we do now? How would we view the exalted prewar sound if that were the case. My frustration has been that I'm in love with the visual aspects of the prewar Gibson designs and up until recently, copyists have been falling short of the mark. Since this is no longer the case, I'm dumb enough to be happy with a couple of KK10 conversions with great tone, great looks (close enough to satisfy me). So let the collectors collect, the preservers preserve. It's not like the world is being deprived of their tone. The prewar sound is a bunch of bunk anyway. The greatness of these banjos lies in our minds. Nothing wrong with that.

---

Protect these instruments from what? Playing them and using them for the intended function. I have an antique gun worth a fortune. I still fire that gun any chance I get. Do I clean it yes. My banjo I keep the best I can. If it gets a scratch it is not the end of the world. To each his own enjoy looking , I think they look neat as well. However they are banjos and banjos make music. I say play the hell out of it and enjoy it.

Bronx banjo - Posted - 04/30/2011:  16:20:47

I see your point, Wes. But I don't know how to "un-value" these instruments. It's like a Frankenstein we've created. We value the prewar flathead five string Mastertone because of Scruggs and now the wealthy can keep them under lock and key if they choose. I bet there are owners who play the heck out of them as well as owners who see them only as investments and don't know a thumb pick from an ice pick. That's a by- product of the importance we've placed on these instruments. I guess I'm willing to accept this because there are alternatives to owning them. I would be upset if the only way to get a decent sounding banjo was to spend $200,000. 

steve davis - Posted - 04/30/2011:  18:20:12

Learning to play any banjo well would be more important than on what banjo you did it,imo.