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Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.banjohangout.org/archive/201252
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waspz - Posted - 03/05/2011: 13:15:17
Hi all
I've been playing for a couple of years now and have basically taught myself from books. The books that I started with taught what I have come to hear referred to as "Pete Seeger style", bear in mind that at that time I had never heard of clawhammer or frailing.
I've got to the stage where the right hand action feels natural and I can knock out a dozen or so tunes.
Unfortunately I seem to have reached a sort of plateau in my playing and need a bit of help to move on but all the people I track down seem to play clawhammer. I have totally failed to find anyone who teaches the Seeger style.
Is this due to the Seeger style just being out of fashion or is clawhammer / frailing more prevalent because it can do more. For example can yo do breaks up the neck using the Seeger style.
So this leads to my question, is it possible to do everything that can be done using the clawhammer style playing in the Seeger style or should I consider biting the bullet now and start learning to clawhammer / frail.
Looking forward to your comments
Nigel
Steve Donnelly - Posted - 03/05/2011: 13:22:45
I think it's a great way to play. However, if I was concentrating on
playing Seeger style again, I would learn to play some of the notes on the inside
strings with my thumb.
WildJimbo - Posted - 03/05/2011: 13:39:01
While I'd encourage you to learn clawhammer, I'd in no way discourage you from continuing on the path you are now.
I think you'd only be limited by your own imagination and desire to work. I've heard all sorts of styles played in all sorts of groups.
Oh... I'm pretty ignorant of the variety of instruction books out there. So, I'm curious about the books you are learning Seeger style from.
-=Jim
waspz - Posted - 03/05/2011: 13:49:40
I do now have Pete Seegers "How to play the 5-string Banjo" but I started out with:-
"Traditional 5-string banjo" by Peter Flanagan
and
"5-string G banjo" by Tony (Sully) Sullivan
Both of these seem to be based around traditional Irish/English/Scottish songs
Rgds
Nigel
Matt Buckley - Posted - 03/05/2011: 14:20:32
quote:
Originally posted by waspz
So this leads to my question, is it possible to do everything that can be done using the clawhammer style playing in the Seeger style or should I consider biting the bullet now and start learning to clawhammer / frail.
tomberghan - Posted - 03/05/2011: 14:33:36
Now, I confess to not having a lot of Pete Seeger recordings in my collection, but I respect the man immensely.
Maybe people do have this term “Seeger Style,” but I have heard enough Pete Seeger recordings to know that he can play MANY styles very well on the banjo! I do not doubt that Mr. Seeger has forgotten more than I will ever know! To suggest that Mr. Seeger is limited to a simple folksy bum-ditty manner of playing is . . . well . . . just plain wrong.
He is accomplished musician and banjoist.
So, I suggest to you that there is probably a LOT more that you can learn from listening to Mr. Seeger and I encourage you to learn as many styles and techniques as you can. It is big ol’ world of old time banjo music out there! And, it is much more diverse than it often gets credit for.
Best Wishes,
Tom
Marc Nerenberg - Posted - 03/05/2011: 14:40:36
quote:The term "Seeger Style" does not refer to Pete Seeger's style of playing per se, as his playing was, as you point out, Tom, wonderfully diverse, and certainly not locked into a single "style".
Originally posted by tomberghan
Now, I confess to not having a lot of Pete Seeger recordings in my collection, but I respect the man immensely.
Maybe people do have this term “Seeger Style,” but I have heard enough Pete Seeger recordings to know that he can play MANY styles very well on the banjo! I do not doubt that Mr. Seeger has forgotten more than I will ever know! To suggest that Mr. Seeger is limited to a simple folksy bum-ditty manner of playing is . . . well . . . just plain wrong.
He is accomplished musician and banjoist.
So, I suggest to you that there is probably a LOT more that you can learn from listening to Mr. Seeger and I encourage you to learn as many styles and techniques as you can. It is big ol’ world of old time banjo music out there! And, it is much more diverse than it often gets credit for.
Best Wishes,
Tom
Edited by - Marc Nerenberg on 03/05/2011 14:44:12
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 03/05/2011: 14:47:44
All you have to do to convert to clawhammer is change the basic stroke - I kinow "Easy for me to say"!
But if you take the time t do it - say ten minutes a day, you will eventually be able to play your entire repertoire in both styles.
If you can currently do drop thumb in Seeger style - it is literally the same thing in clawhammer - however many people never seem to get aroung to DT while doing the Seeger Strum. So you might have to study that too.
Even if you can't do drop thumb most clawhammer tabs can easily be read in the Seeger Strum
More Later I'm going out to dinner.
see
rsb.pricklypearmusic.net
Jim Yates - Posted - 03/05/2011: 14:48:41
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Buckley
Bite the bullet now. The Seeger style is appropriate in many settings, but it is limited. Clawhammer is not that difficult, and you can choose in the end what appeals most to you.
Cheers.
Matt
Edited by - Jim Yates on 03/05/2011 14:51:39
tomberghan - Posted - 03/05/2011: 14:56:27
>>>The term "Seeger Style" does not refer to Pete Seeger's style of playing per se, as his playing was, as you point out, Tom, wonderfully diverse, and certainly not locked into a single "style". <<<
Ah . . . well, I am often known to be full of prunes! I am sorry that Mr. Seeger gets labled with this unfortunate and fairly narrow term! It sucks to be Pete I guess. Well, not really! What a career! But all of those politics. Too much for me. I'm all for free speech, but I prefer songs about trains, whiskey, pretty girls, and good ol' dogs! But . . . thats just me! ;-)
Thanks Marc!
Best Wishes,
Tom
JRushing - Posted - 03/05/2011: 16:03:14
I play Seeger style alot to and what he did to round out his playing was to play thumb lead two finger. He would play the Seeger strum alot as he sang and then he would take breaks or solos in the 2 finge picking style.
The two styles go very well together because your already using your index finger to pick up in the strum, so it's a very clean transition to the picking. Seeger demostrares this way of playing on a YouTube video for Skip to My Lou.
Pete also played clawhammer and other styles. Roscoe Holcomb also played this way, along with clawhammer and 2 finger. Don't limit yourself, if you feel it's time to add another style to your playing, pick a tune you like in that style and go for it. I think that is truly "Seeger style".
falconeman - Posted - 03/05/2011: 16:12:58
[/quote] The term "Seeger Style" does not refer to Pete Seeger's style of playing per se, as his playing was, as you point out, Tom, wonderfully diverse, and certainly not locked into a single "style".
Just want to point out... the above "was" should be changed to "is"! He's still playing, saw him recently... he's only 91 and can still play!
TonyS - Posted - 03/05/2011: 16:30:31
I read the 'blue' book by Pete - the style I'm working on now.
I got an ipod 'best of' type of Pete's recordings --- I saw a few titles and thought - Oh no - a kiddie record - BUT his singing and strumming style made these American standards fantastic and I'll do them, as long a no one throws veggies!
JRushing - Posted - 03/05/2011: 16:45:28
When people say Seeger style I know they are referring to the pick and brush style of playing. But this way of playing was around before Pete added it to his many styles. Roscoe Holcomb, Ralph Stanley, Morgan Sexton also played like this sometimes. So my question is, What did they call it. I've heard up-picking, pick and brush and little birdie style. Have you heard any more names for this way of playing??
Also the more videos i watch of Pete Seeger playing in the pick and brush style, he almost always takes a solo in 2 finger. Would it be fair to say 2 finger thumb lead picking is the drop thumb of up-picking?
Edited by - JRushing on 03/05/2011 16:55:34
Jim Yates - Posted - 03/05/2011: 21:51:22
quote:
Originally posted by clawforlife
Also the more videos i watch of Pete Seeger playing in the pick and brush style, he almost always takes a solo in 2 finger. Would it be fair to say 2 finger thumb lead picking is the drop thumb of up-picking?
Edited by - Jim Yates on 03/05/2011 21:53:21
majikgator - Posted - 03/06/2011: 07:55:54
The basics of that style of playing are like the basics of any other style of playing, basic. Nothing at all wrong with up picking and i wouldn't tell you to quit that in favor of clawhammer in fact it has advantages it is probably easier to play faster and more articulately in that style than it is in clawhammer, although it doesn't have the punch. i believe there is are four tabs in this style Art Rosenbaum's The Art of the Mountain Banjo, whether they are more advanced pieces than you are currently playing i don't know but they sound good to me.
In general you are doing free hand index lead two finger picking and i would not call this style any more limited than any other. It's the basic strum that is limited like clawhammer's bum ditty but i wouldn't call clawhammer a limited style or Scruggs style limited because of all the rolls. Any one of these styles can be taken to the highest form of virtuosity.
minstrelmike - Posted - 03/06/2011: 08:07:52
I don't think the Seeger up-picking is any more limited than frailing is.
Don't look for a teacher. Look at some frailing tabs and see if you can work it out. Seems to me the up-picking and basic frail are identical sounds with just up-picking fingers instead of down-picking fingers.
Clawhammer-style 'sound' to me is different because it has fewer brushes than frailing but the difference between an IT with the index stroke plucked down versus up is none.
Essentially, what you want to learn next without changing anything basic is two-finger picking which is essentially Index lead (like all clawhammer/frailing tab) followed by a thumb.
Instead of doing boom-shukka as I-pause-brush-Thumb, do ITIT with no pauses to get more of a banjo-picking sound.
Start with strings 1515 but also try 1315 and 1215.
Do this on all the songs you currently play as a new version to mix in with the others.
As you get fancier with chording and fingering, you'll end up doing a lot 1212 stuff that is essentially proto-melodic-style picking.
Edited by - minstrelmike on 03/06/2011 08:09:48
rendesvous1840 - Posted - 03/06/2011: 16:25:14
Pete's basic strum probably has limitations (I haven't found them yet!)-not the same ones that round peak has, and not the same ones that stroke style has. Nor the same ones as Scruggs style has, or Bill Keith style has. Never throw away your pliers just because you bought a screwdriver. All styles have some limiting factor, and only by becoming fluent in them will you really learn what those limits are. When the limits stop you, play in a different style that lets you do what you want to do. Like Pete and Mike Seeger did, and others. Or, like Scruggs, Keith, and Bobby Thompson, recreate or invent your own style. There's at least one player who decided 3 fingers were too limiting, and is using 4 now. Pete's Basic style is more fluid for 3/4 time songs than clawhammer, and easier to play quietly when you want to hear the singer. It works very well as song accompaniment, particularly as a solo singer-banjoist. I switch to and from Strum/Clawhammer within songs fairly often. Why not embrace the advantages?
Paul
stanger - Posted - 03/06/2011: 16:25:17
Pete used 2 and 3-finger up-picking styles frequently in addition to his strum, and know how to frail and clawhammer. Much of his public playing was done with fingerpicks so he could get enough volume for performance.
When wearing picks, he strummed down with his ring finger, a trick I picked up and now do habitually, even when I'm playing bluegrass.
Clawhammer offers more percussiveness, and doesn't require fingerpicks to get goo volume. It has a punchier tone compared to the Seeger strum, and has greater note definition in it's sound- each note sounds a bit more clear and distinct.
Only the attack motion- striking the string downward with a fingernail- is strange; it's a motion that the hand doesn't do often. But once you get it, and a lot of times, all it takes is a short demonstration from someone- all the Seeger tunes you have learned switch right over.
The stoke syles like the Seeger and clawhammer have real charms, and are a lot of fun to play. It all really depends on what you want to do later, down the road- if you want to explore 3-finger picking, the Seeger style is a good bridge between it and the stroke styles.ut if the old-time tunes really attract you, then you'll need to learn how to frail and/or clawhammer at some point to get the best tone.
regards,
stanger
vega long neck - Posted - 03/07/2011: 07:08:13
This thread sure did stir up the dust!
Good posts, good reading and for the most part not too partisan. I would agree that the Seeger style(?) is not limiting at all. Indeed, for those who have actually gone through his book(s) he can did/does play an incredible number of styles and freely combines them whenever he feels he should to project the tune.
I don't think I would call any style/method of playing limiting; even the ones I don't particularly enjoy listening to, and there aren't too many of those.
cbcarlisle - Posted - 03/07/2011: 14:39:45
Any style is limiting if you let it be; or Not if you transcend it. I don't think anyone would say Pete is limited by it. That maybe because I have never seen him do anything less than Full Out! The harpsichordist Wanda Lendowska famously said, "Art begins where Technique leaves off." Pete knows that too.
ceemonster - Posted - 03/07/2011: 17:38:11
the question isn't really whether it's "limited," but rather, is it the, or "a" style you want to play in? like lots of absolute beginners, i got the seeger book first off when starting out, but jettisoned it the second i could make out what the tab sounded like, because it was clear that it wasn't "that sound" i had fallen for like a ton of bricks, which epiphany was what prompted me to embark on the banjo road in the first place....i had the great good luck to have a place within reach to go for some lessons and data from folks with the knowledge to fill me in on what "that sound" was that i was so crazy about. i consider this a great stroke of luck, not because of anything lacking in mr. seeger, but because we're in this to follow our inner voices.....so, first, get a sense of what it is that calls to you, and then get some input as to what patch of ground that is. then go there.
Jon A. - Posted - 03/07/2011: 20:11:50
I'll add my two cents. I don't think the simple stroke that he teaches in his book is a style, but more a method of introduction/instruction. In fact most of the tabs in the book are incomplete because he wanted people to figure the rest out on their own. If you listen to the Darlin Cory/Goofing Off Suite double CD, it would be hard to put a label on any of it. It runs the gamut from up-picking with a lot of three finger (Oh, Liza), to frailing(Sally Ann), to two-finger(Darlin Cory) and three finger, and to his sister Peggy's "Lullaby Lick". I have a copy of the Goofing Off Suite book, and none of the tabs are what I would consider easy. So I guess you could say his sytle is limiting, because my skills limit me from playing it.
Jon
janolov - Posted - 03/08/2011: 00:01:58
I think usually it is the player who has the limitations, rather than the style itself.
If you play Pete Seeger's "basic strum" (often wrongly referred as "Seeger style") you will not get the same driving sound as clawhammer, and you can not play all clawhammer arrangements, but you can play a lot of fun stuff. If you also add Pete Seeger's double thumbing (here at BHO often also called two finger index lead) you can play a lot more. Also, while playing with two fingers you can play the thumb lead, also demonstrated by Pete Seeger. With these three components, and some creativity, you will be more versatile than an ordinary clawhammer player.
Pete Peterson - Posted - 03/15/2011: 06:46:47
The late Peter Colby from MA (has he really been gone twenty years?) took the Seeger "basic strum" farther than anybody else I know of. He used fingerpicks and was able to play in a driving, versatile manner. He used a mixture of basic strum and index-lead double-thumbing mostly in a band setting. He is way under-recorded; the only thing I know out there is "Farewell to the Hollow" which (just checked) is still out there through his bandmate Bob McQuillen.
To go back to Nigel's original question-- whatever strum you use is a tool for getting the notes that you want to get. If you are comfortable doing that-- stay with it and keep developing and exploring. Maybe hang out with other banjo players (did you go to Gainsborough?) and listen to/see what they are doing and decide if that's something you want to do.
stevel - Posted - 03/15/2011: 09:00:35
There a few players who can get quite the "galloping clawhammer" sound out of Seeger style/up-picking. And some songs just sound better with up picking... like Little Birdie. I can't say why, but they just do.
I play some songs in Seegar style/up-picking depending upon my mood... but I do find drop thuming while up-picking to be quite the challenge, especially when playing fast.
YMMV
cheers
steve
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 03/15/2011: 10:09:24
There is a rhythmic difference between the Seeger Strum and clawhammer. You can in fact do clawhammer in the looser less driving style of Seeger's basic strum, but you can't (or at least I couldn't do the Seeger Strum in the more driving clawhammer rhythm. I tended to sing over the Seeger strum and then do the solos in either 2 finger style or clawhammer.
In the early 80s I put together a group with people who weren't used to playing against anything but clawhammer banjo and switched all my picking to claw, in order to keep the rhythm even for them. Since then I've noticed that the majority of people who change from claw to another style "during" a piece are mostly the guys who usually play alone. Pete, Hedy West, Michael Cooney, etc.
Pete Peterson - Posted - 03/15/2011: 11:40:34
Oldwoodchuckb--As was said in a different context, "WHAT ABOUT UNCLE DAVE MACON?"
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 03/15/2011: 13:03:38
Sure - but Macon was accompanied by some of the best sidemen in history. The McGee Brothers were capable of following him through anything short of a black hole. As was his son Doris, and the other sidemen he used.
I'm not saying that it is impossible- or even particularly difficult, but there is a definite rhythm to the Seeger Strum that is different enough to full-on down-stroke clawhammer, that a musician has to know what is coming up. I was very shifty about such things before I put together the group. Hedy West who could do a half dozen styles in a single verse was always my heroine and I sweated bullets trying to get that looseness of accompaniment she did with such apparent ease. I wasn't as good as she was - nobody was. I had a crush on her from the age of 15.
I still did some 2 finger Thumb Lead in the group and even occasional 3 finger bits - they worked better than the Seeger Strum for the others - there was less rhythmic change. We did all sorts of music - OT, Folk, Jug, Rock - we even had a great version of Mack then Knife - using the original Weill melody and rhythm, and an exact translation of the words. I sang it in Dave Van Ronk doing German songs style - no problem for the band. Our mando player used his slide and doubled the fiddle on that one.
I was only one quarter of the singers in the band and I simply didn't feel like rehearsing all those folk songs I sang until the others got used to the rhythm shifts, so I simply replaced my Seeger Strum with Clawhammer and spared the other 5 band members the trouble.
Edited by - oldwoodchuckb on 03/15/2011 13:28:50
banjoak - Posted - 03/15/2011: 15:21:38
quote:
Originally posted by waspz
So this leads to my question, is it possible to do everything that can be done using the clawhammer style playing in the Seeger style or should I consider biting the bullet now and start learning to clawhammer / frail.
quote:
Originally posted by cbcarlisle
Any style is limiting if you let it be; or Not if you transcend it. I don't think anyone would say Pete is limited by it.
mwc9725e - Posted - 03/16/2011: 06:35:32
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Yatesquote:
Originally posted by Matt Buckley
Bite the bullet now. The Seeger style is appropriate in many settings, but it is limited. Clawhammer is not that difficult, and you can choose in the end what appeals most to you.
Cheers.
Matt
I don't see how the Seeger-style (Let's call it up-picking, because, as Tom pointed out, Pete plays many styles, including clawhammer) is any more limited that clawhammer. Any tab written for clawhammer can be played up-picking style and vice versa.
Wow! Two posts while I was composing this one.
Edited by - mwc9725e on 03/16/2011 06:40:55
DantheBanjoMan - Posted - 03/16/2011: 11:33:37
Mr. Seeger explains his style in this video. Some folks might think it's limited, but I'd be tickled pink if I could do it as well as he does.
youtube.com/watch?v=Rrfs2uaGQag
mwc9725e - Posted - 03/16/2011: 11:51:50
quote:
Originally posted by DantheBanjoMan
Mr. Seeger explains his style in this video. Some folks might think it's limited, but I'd be tickled pink if I could do it as well as he does.
youtube.com/watch?v=Rrfs2uaGQag
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 03/16/2011: 13:00:08
After 40 years of playing clawhammer banjo - I still find it limited compared to playing guitar. I don't think the limitation is in the banjo, but in the style I use and the time I've not put into learning new "tricks".
Part of the fun of a "limited" style, is pushing those limits. I've met people who claim you can't play jigs in clawhammer because it only uses two strokes - how many directions does a flatpick go in?
The limitations are in the players - not the instruments, or the styles.
Edited by - oldwoodchuckb on 03/16/2011 13:02:47
DantheBanjoMan - Posted - 03/16/2011: 13:15:00
Bill,
I think my comment might have come across in the wrong way, and I apologize for any unintended effect. I do think that there are limitations to Mr. Seeger's style (as there are with any style) , so I think we're in exact agreement but I probably just didn't express myself well.
I do tend to defend old-time banjo players in general because I've run across some bluegrass boys (not here, but in person) who have been less than kind to OT music and that does upset me quite a bit, and I apologize if some of that attitude crept in my comments and came across the wrong way.
Emiel - Posted - 03/16/2011: 15:18:49
quote:
Originally posted by DantheBanjoMan
Mr. Seeger explains his style in this video. Some folks might think it's limited, but I'd be tickled pink if I could do it as well as he does.
youtube.com/watch?v=Rrfs2uaGQag
Emiel - Posted - 03/16/2011: 15:23:02
quote:
Originally posted by DantheBanjoMan
I do think that there are limitations to Mr. Seeger's style (as there are with any style)
lukeaskance - Posted - 03/16/2011: 15:28:47
I've only been playing a little over a year, but began with 3-finger style, started frailing (thanks Woodchuck) when I realised the bluegrassy style I was learning was hard to accompany singing with, had a look through Pete Seeger's book of course, and now have just had a revelation in Art Rosenbaum's book "Old-Time Mountain Banjo". I'm really enjoying it because he gives a simple, enjoyable (and aesthetically beautiful) introduction to various different styles and tunings, rather as Pete does, but somehow I'm just finding it more accessible than Pete's book - actually the two are very complementary. I was very lucky to find the book in question quite cheaply on the net (it's out of print and it seems there are gangsters selling it for 500 dollars...) but Rosenbaum has written another book, "The Art of the Mountain Banjo", which is in print and will be next on my list I think...
Just for interest, a note from the book - I'm currently learning "Goin' down the Road Feelin' Bad" on page 18, and he says of this arrangement : "You can convert Sourwood Mountain and Lynchburg Town [the previous two songs] just as they are written into down-picking style, but this tune is intended to be played strictly in up-picking"...
I'm only quoting...
DantheBanjoMan - Posted - 03/16/2011: 23:17:34
According to the Happy Traum video "Five-String Banjo for Beginners" Pete Seeger popularized a traditional style of banjo playing and some people called it "Pete Seeger style" but Mr. Seeger never did and called it "basic strum" or "up-picking" style. Even after making that explanation Mr. Traum refers to it as "Pete Seeger style" in the booklet that came with the video, so apparently it is somewhat of a common term even if Mr. Seeger is too modest to use it himself.
In this small circle of knowledgeable banjo players it might make sense to call it up picking, but when I’m with other musicians or folk music listeners I refer to it as “Pete Seeger Style” because that’s something that more understandable to them. It’s just a shorthand for “a style of playing that has been associated with Pete Seeger” and doesn’t mean “the only style Pete Seeger ever played” or “the style of banjo Peter Seeger invented.” Pete Seeger did a lot to popularize this style and to keep it alive, and even if it isn’t the most perfect term I think any imprecision can be forgiven and we can tell ourselves that it is just an homage to a very important banjo player.
As far as I can tell, the YouTube video I referenced explains what Mr. Traum calls “Seeger style” and Mr. Seeger does in fact demonstrate something he calls double thumbing. Another BHO member posted a link to a different video which apparently isn't true Seeger style, but it looks me like the one I posted is the typical Seeger style. That said, there are probably a hundred people who will read this who know more than I do, so maybe they can point out something that I've missed.
youtube.com/watch?v=Rrfs2uaGQag
John Gribble - Posted - 03/17/2011: 01:28:24
Well, this has been quite the party! I started out with the red version of the Seeger book, which came after the yellow version, with the "Basic Strum," as Mr Seeger calls it, up-down, up-down. Then added the fifth string (a chapter all its own). Then I moved on to frailing/clawhammer. As Seeger points out in the "Frailing" chapter, the basic rhythm is the same but the feel is different, rougher, more hard-driving in frailing (read "clawhammer").
I rarely do the up-picking anymore, though I still can. I find it most useful when playing behind singers or quiet instrumentalists and only want to add a taste of banjo, not try to dominate. And I find that it is still the easiest way to play "bum-ditty" or "bum-pa-ditty" really fast.
FYI, just had another little aftershock in West Tokyo.
lukeaskance - Posted - 03/17/2011: 03:58:44
I'm surprised you find up-picking faster - but then I've only just started trying it. But this message is really just to say that my thoughts are with you there in Japan. There's nothing else to say really, just to hope that things don't get worse, and that they'll get better as soon as possible. Bon courage, as they say here in France...
I admit I like the idea that you are writing about banjos while the earth is trembling beneath your feet. A lesson to us all perhaps...!
Marc Nerenberg - Posted - 03/17/2011: 06:18:06
quote:This video is undoubtedly Seeger demonstrating "Seeger Style". You haven't missed a thing, Dan.
Originally posted by DantheBanjoMan
According to the Happy Traum video "Five-String Banjo for Beginners" Pete Seeger popularized a traditional style of banjo playing and some people called it "Pete Seeger style" but Mr. Seeger never did and called it "basic strum" or "up-picking" style. Even after making that explanation Mr. Traum refers to it as "Pete Seeger style" in the booklet that came with the video, so apparently it is somewhat of a common term even if Mr. Seeger is too modest to use it himself.
In this small circle of knowledgeable banjo players it might make sense to call it up picking, but when I’m with other musicians or folk music listeners I refer to it as “Pete Seeger Style” because that’s something that more understandable to them. It’s just a shorthand for “a style of playing that has been associated with Pete Seeger” and doesn’t mean “the only style Pete Seeger ever played” or “the style of banjo Peter Seeger invented.” Pete Seeger did a lot to popularize this style and to keep it alive, and even if it isn’t the most perfect term I think any imprecision can be forgiven and we can tell ourselves that it is just an homage to a very important banjo player.
As far as I can tell, the YouTube video I referenced explains what Mr. Traum calls “Seeger style” and Mr. Seeger does in fact demonstrate something he calls double thumbing. Another BHO member posted a link to a different video which apparently isn't true Seeger style, but it looks me like the one I posted is the typical Seeger style. That said, there are probably a hundred people who will read this who know more than I do, so maybe they can point out something that I've missed.
youtube.com/watch?v=Rrfs2uaGQag
Emiel - Posted - 03/17/2011: 06:23:51
quote:
Originally posted by Marc Nerenbergquote:This video is undoubtedly Seeger demonstrating "Seeger Style". You haven't missed a thing, Dan.
Originally posted by DantheBanjoMan
According to the Happy Traum video "Five-String Banjo for Beginners" Pete Seeger popularized a traditional style of banjo playing and some people called it "Pete Seeger style" but Mr. Seeger never did and called it "basic strum" or "up-picking" style. Even after making that explanation Mr. Traum refers to it as "Pete Seeger style" in the booklet that came with the video, so apparently it is somewhat of a common term even if Mr. Seeger is too modest to use it himself.
In this small circle of knowledgeable banjo players it might make sense to call it up picking, but when I’m with other musicians or folk music listeners I refer to it as “Pete Seeger Style” because that’s something that more understandable to them. It’s just a shorthand for “a style of playing that has been associated with Pete Seeger” and doesn’t mean “the only style Pete Seeger ever played” or “the style of banjo Peter Seeger invented.” Pete Seeger did a lot to popularize this style and to keep it alive, and even if it isn’t the most perfect term I think any imprecision can be forgiven and we can tell ourselves that it is just an homage to a very important banjo player.
As far as I can tell, the YouTube video I referenced explains what Mr. Traum calls “Seeger style” and Mr. Seeger does in fact demonstrate something he calls double thumbing. Another BHO member posted a link to a different video which apparently isn't true Seeger style, but it looks me like the one I posted is the typical Seeger style. That said, there are probably a hundred people who will read this who know more than I do, so maybe they can point out something that I've missed.
youtube.com/watch?v=Rrfs2uaGQag
JRushing - Posted - 03/17/2011: 07:35:46
I think this style is very versatile for a player who uses many different styles. It's easy to sing with this pick and brush style. Then you can launch into just about any other style very easily from here. 2 and 3 finger or clawhammer. Sure there will be slight adjustments, but it's still alot easier than going say from clawhammer to 3 finger.
I think 2 finger picking is the drop or double thumb of this style. You take away the brush and thats what you have. Take away the brush and you can easily go into 2 finger patterns.
Mike Seeger also said you could get an great amount of speed from this style. Often when playing with bluegrassers I am able to keep up using this with 2 finger. But while I'm able to produce a galloping sound similar to claw it doesn't have the "punch" or the harmonics.
Every thing has limitations but I think you would have to be a very acomplished player to reach. I think up-picking should be in every old time players bag of tricks. I think it would be limiting to ones player not to know it.
Gary Blanchard - Posted - 03/21/2011: 10:39:30
I am unusual in that I do not play the banjo to be a banjo player, I play banjo to be a singer. I have my own style that works for what I want to do. I can't play with the old-time or bluegrass crowd, but that was never my aim anyway. I think the basic strum is great for a singer/songwriter type of thing. The beauty of the banjo is that there can be as many ways to play it as there are players.
Jim Yates - Posted - 03/21/2011: 13:14:04
quote:
Originally posted by mwc9725equote:
Originally posted by Jim Yatesquote:
Originally posted by Matt Buckley
Bite the bullet now. The Seeger style is appropriate in many settings, but it is limited. Clawhammer is not that difficult, and you can choose in the end what appeals most to you.
Cheers.
Matt
I don't see how the Seeger-style (Let's call it up-picking, because, as Tom pointed out, Pete plays many styles, including clawhammer) is any more limited that clawhammer. Any tab written for clawhammer can be played up-picking style and vice versa.
Wow! Two posts while I was composing this one.
It's limited for me ( but so are most things banjo ). One thing I have difficulty with is dropping my thumb, when I play in Mr. Seeger's way. It's not impossible, but if you think about it, the mechanics work against you -- you're trying to push your thumb downward right after an up pick with your index finger, so your hand is moving in the wrong direction. At least mine is. With CH, the downward direction of the index or middle finger is moving the hand in a way that facilitates the drop thumb motion.
What I do find is that using Seeger's style with only a single finger ( middle finger, I use ) brush (dit) makes it easy for me to up pick the first ( bum ) note with the index, or down pick it with the middle finger. After a while, you don't even think about which to do, it just seems to fit automatically into the playing -- and of course, you can drop the thumb on the down pick.
thxcuz - Posted - 09/06/2011: 16:39:08
When I first started playing a 5 string I began playing what I thought was clawhammer. When I finally was able to really hear and see players play that style (this was pre YouTube) I was discouraged that I wasn't playing the banjo correctly. But the more I played the better I got on my incorrect style. I never knew my style had a name or if anyone else played like me. I was familiar with Pete Seeger but I was born after the great folk scare of the 60's and there wasn't much inspiration there. When I found out my style had a name I was overjoyed. I find it a great style and I can play in many styles. It doesn't sound like Scruggs style, it doesn't sound like clawhammer. It sounds like me.
gailg64 - Posted - 09/06/2011: 19:39:32
Interesting discussion of up-picking/Little Birdie style.
Maybe one reason for the difference in rhythm & feel between up picking and clawhammer is that with up picking your index finger, after making its note, is bent toward the palm and poised directly over the bass string ready to come down with a deep brush. Because the finger (or fingers--you can use the middle as well for the brush) is right up there after the pluck, the brush maybe comes a bit sooner on the heels of the up-pluck. In any case, up-picking creates a slightly different galloping rhythm, one that I associate with some really driving players in KY & western NC. I've heard Bobby Fulcher use that style backing up Clyde Davenport & I think it really works well. (Hey, now I count FOUR styles that Clyde had!
Gail
quote:
Originally posted by stevel
There a few players who can get quite the "galloping clawhammer" sound out of Seeger style/up-picking. And some songs just sound better with up picking... like Little Birdie. I can't say why, but they just do.
I play some songs in Seegar style/up-picking depending upon my mood... but I do find drop thuming while up-picking to be quite the challenge, especially when playing fast.
YMMV
cheers
steve
R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 09/06/2011: 21:16:24
quote:
Originally posted by waspz
Unfortunately I seem to have reached a sort of plateau in my playing and need a bit of help to move on but all the people I track down seem to play clawhammer.
For example can you do breaks up the neck using the Seeger style.
So this leads to my question, is it possible to do everything that can be done using the clawhammer style playing in the Seeger style or should I consider biting the bullet now and start learning to clawhammer / frail.
My vote would go to developing your "Seeger Style" as there are comparatively speaking plenty of CHers out there.
You can do up-the-neck breaks in Seeger Style or as far as I know in any style.
As has been noted above, the two styles have a different feel, so ultimately, you may want to decide which sound you're more attracted to and proceed from there. The Seeger Style has potential, but without knowing how far you've already taken it, it is hard to advise on where to go from where you're currently at.
Of course, the suggestion to learn CH in addition to SS is not bad advice either.
Helix - Posted - 09/08/2011: 15:31:49
I had to go back and relearn up-picking, I now use it interchangeably with frailing, clawhammer and 3-finger Scruggs, I also use fingerpicks for everything.
Just play, there's a guy in The Crazy Mule Bluegrass Band, and he picks and frails at the same time, dude.
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