oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 02/16/2011:  21:51:28

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“Unfortunate Puppy & Other Fine Tunes”
By Hunter Robertson
hunterrobertson.com/


It isn't often that one is present to witness a real revolution, but I feel I have seen the future of Banjo Instruction with Hunter Robertson's new video “The Unfortunate Puppy & Other Fine Tunes: Lessons in Intermediate & Advanced Clawhammer Banjo”. The work Hunter and his associate, videographer Jonathan Vanballenberghe of Open Lens Productions openlensproductions.com/ have done with this video will quickly bring the standard for DVD lessons up from that of purely supplemental material to a vastly improved method of teaching stringed and fretted instruments. I'm not joking. This video has as much to teach banjo teachers as has for banjo students, and it will influence All fretted and stringed instrument teaching DVDs for decades to come.

Most banjo videos, consist of a medium shot of the player/teacher with a downright dinky close-up of either the left or right hand inserted into the blank space off to his left side. Both hands come out quite small, and the actual playing is really too fast to be caught on normal (30 frames a second) video. Hunter and Vanballenberghe have dumped that format and created a new way that shows both hands large and clear. The view appears to be what you would see sitting in the usual student's position across from a teacher with a banjo. However, instead of wasting screen space the picture has been sectioned, leaving out the dull, unchanging landscape between the frailing and the fretting. Why Didn't I think of That?

While this innovation alone would be a major improvement to most videos, it is only after extended viewing that I realized each of the hands had been filmed to be seen at the best angle for catching the details of the playing. It is easy to see exactly what happens at the fingers and frets level of the left hand and to catch exactly which string is being plucked by the right.

While this alone would be revolutionary there is another big improvement in the presentation. The video was probably filmed with the camera running at double speed (60 frames per second) so that when it is slowed down to 30 there is remarkably little of that low speed video mush in the picture. You can see the hands working side by side in smooth slo-mo. Every detail is right smack in your face. You can't miss a thing.

Each of the tunes is presented in four ways – at full speed, complete with variations, followed by a section at half speed using the slo-mo technique described above. Then Hunter goes over the tune in detail showing each melodic figure complete with spoken playing notes explaining the various techniques as Hunter demos them. Finally there is a simple medium speed version designed so the student can play along with the teacher just as in a face to face lesson.

The tunes go from very easy (Candy Girl) to moderately difficult (The Unfortunate Puppy). Learning each tune will also add new techniques to your playing repertory. In “Lonesome John” there are several Alternate String Hammer-Ons (ASHOs), the less known brother to the world famous Alternate String Pull-Off (ASPO), While in “Boatin' Up Sandy” you will find M Skips, Double ASPOs, syncopated M Skips, and the undeservedly rare “Down Slide”. “Ducks On The Millpond” is a refreshingly different version from Emmett Lundy with a lesson on grace notes to boot. For those who (like me) love Triple C (or Triple D) tuning there is W. M. Stepp's superlative version of “Bonaparte's Retreat” and for the straight “G” tuning set, you'll find an exceptional version of “Cripple Creek” from the playing of Hobart Smith. While you could play this with your local jam group, it that has a voice and ambiance all its own. In fact the techniques used in these ten tunes will bring sparkle to all your current and future tunes repertoire. Every new technique you learn becomes another tool in your kit, and another voice in your musical choir. Hunter recommends listening to the original versions of these tunes, and all are available on the internet

Along with the 10 tune videos there is also a “Techniques Video” jam packed full of extremely useful stuff and well worth the price of the entire DVD. There is also an all too brief demonstration of Up Picked styles. The DVD cannot have much space left over. I suspect most players will return to all the lessons from time to time in order to gain new insights from them.

While Hunter describes this video as being for Intermediate to Advanced students I am going to respectfully disagree. I don't think you have to be “advanced” much beyond beginning player to get more than your money's worth from The Unfortunate Puppy. Anyone with the basic strokes down comfortably, who can play the common clawhammer rhythms and follow clearly presented examples should be able to use these videos to one degree or another, and will know more about clawhammer in general than most other Beginners or Intermediate or Advanced players. Furthermore you will be learning from a master player and a master instructor – these aren't always one and the same person. The banjo world is extremely lucky to have Hunter Robertson. He is a great banjo player and The Unfortunate Puppy, sets the Gold Standard for teaching videos.

Let me insert a bit of shameless self promotion here:

Many of the techniques described in the Unfortunate Puppy are also found in Chapter 4 of Rocket Science Banjo. Double Pull-Offs, Down Slides, The M Skip, etc are all covered in my book, making it a good companion for Hunter's video. There is even an example of Hunter’s syncopated M Skip and the “Rushed Thumb Stroke – which I described in Ken Perlman's 1981 book “Clawhammer Style Banjo”, and which will eventually be covered in RSB too. There are even versions of a couple tunes on the video tabbed out in the book.
RSB is free to all, so grab up a copy at:
rsb.pricklypearmusic.net

And in conclusion:

I think Hunter's technique video alone is worth the price of the DVD. Everyone has to make their own decision as to when they are ready for this material but I would recommend it to my students on the early side rather than wait. I think that most people will get their money's worth, and that over time it will prove more than just useful to anyone willing to put some time into learning the material. Nothing “teaches” you the banjo – you gotta do all the work – even the banjo doesn't really do anything for you.
That said, this is the best instructional video I've ever seen. It is well worth your money and more importantly, it is well worth your time.

fesso - Posted - 02/17/2011:  06:00:18

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Great review! There is a group here on BHO to for the purpose of working through the DVD and share progress called "Fortunate Pups and Old Dogs Working Group. i hope some of you will join in on the journey of working through the DVD and learning the absolutely AWESOME selection of tunes. Here is the link to the group:
banjohangout.org/group/fortuna...ndolddogs
i hope to see ya'll there!

R Buck - Posted - 02/17/2011:  08:33:15

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Seems like something we need to look into.

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 02/17/2011:  16:22:27

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i just joined the group - but I don't seem to be able to post in it - Does membership posting all go through you or is there a waiting period? I'll try again later.

fesso - Posted - 02/17/2011:  17:15:46

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quote:

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Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb

i just joined the group - but I don't seem to be able to post in it - Does membership posting all go through you or is there a waiting period? I'll try again later.

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Dunno- i just gave everyone admin status lets see if that works. Not sure exactly how the groups work, i would prefer if everyone can post to the blog and not just reply to what i write....

Hunter Robertson - Posted - 02/18/2011:  11:52:55

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Great review Tony - thanks! I almost rushed out and bought myself a copy...

I'm glad that you and others have found the DVD could be useful for beginners as well as the intermediate and advanced of the title. I do too, but I didn't want someone looking for a thorough breakdown of basic strokes to buy it by accident. And "for moderate beginners, intermediate and advanced players" is too unwieldy a title.

I agree that Rocket Science Banjo is a good companion to Unfortunate Puppy. It's listed in the notes for the DVD precisely because of the number of different techniques you present and the exercises for them.

One other thing I'll list here is Gadaya's having put the recordings of the ten original fiddle tunes together and making them available for download. If I could have figured out the copyright law involved I would have put them on the DVD, they're essential to a full use of it. longplayingrecords.wordpress.c...obertson/

Hunter

Blayne - Posted - 02/18/2011:  12:19:32

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I ordered a copy of Hunter's DVD yesterday based on Tony's review. I'm just beginning clawhammer banjo, but I hope I'll soon be at a point where I can start working through the DVD. I also joined the group that Fesso set up; it sounds like fun.

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 02/18/2011:  13:29:03

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Blayne,
I think you will probably find the technique video the best place to start. Watch Hunter's playing, download that group of tunes from Gadaya - I too don't know the copyright status but all of these recordings have been published in teh past without any regard to their copyright. A number of them are from Library of Congress recordings and the copyright holder on those is the American People, so stuff like Bunt Steven's "Bonaparte" BELONG to us! Feild recordings are fine so long as you aren't publishing them to make money.No one was ever too interested in making money off folk material before the New Christy Minstrels and Brothers Four came along and started copyrighting everything they sang. That era is over. Download Gadaya's mp3s.

Personally - I have to admit that it never occurred to me that everyone wouldn't have the originals in their collections. As Hunter says - "You should always find the original recording. I know too many people who don't seem to even keep the cds they own for more than a couple years. Believe me every musician on the planet has a lot to learn from Bunt Stevens. Hunter's playing is a product of talent, and research (that's right; listening to music is research).

I am also going to "add" something to the DVD. I know that complete beginners will have a harder time with the tunes than true intermediate players, so I am going to publish some of the easier tunes in basic tab versions - nothing fancy, no playing notes, just something you can print out and look at WHILE you are studying the DVD. I fully expect most intermediate and advanced students will not need this at all - Hunter's DVD makes a strong case for learning without TAB, and I think for the stated audience that will work out fine. My tabs will be an effort to make the tunes more easily comprehended by anyone. I'll do "Candygirl" (my fav) first, then every week or so and another. I'll start with the easy tunes and if people still want them will eventually end with Fort Smith Breakdown (coolest tune on the DVD - really!). You can check the Unfortunate Pup Group for publication. This is stuff that will involve email on my part so to get on my mailing list for them I will have to ascertain that you actually have the DVD before sending any tabs.

And here is an item that should have been in the review.

Hunter's playing is complete top rate. He is among the best players of his and any generation. The richness of his banjo voice reminds me of Fred Cockerham - MY favourite clawhammer player of all time. I think that just listening to his playing will go a long way to improve that of many young players, and even some of us old fogies who still have a bit of life left.

BRUNO25 - Posted - 02/18/2011:  15:01:28

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quote:

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Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb

Hunter's playing is complete top rate. He is among the best players of his and any generation. The richness of his banjo voice reminds me of Fred Cockerham - MY favourite clawhammer player of all time. I think that just listening to his playing will go a long way to improve that of many young players, and even some of us old fogies who still have a bit of life left.

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I have to say, I think Tony is totally right. I know I haven't heard everything out there, but I think Hunter's playing is the best I've heard. IMO, the only guy I've heard that does a similar thing FOR ME is Jack Burchett. As far as I know the only recordings of Jack are on the Doc Watson and Clarence Ashley CD. He plays about four tunes on those discs, maybe more, and they are some of the best banjo recordings I've ever heard. But that's just me and what I like. And I guess it's worth saying that, as I have been told, on this forum, Jack played three-finger. I don't know... no three-finger I've ever heard. But for me it's not really about three-finger, two-finger, clawhammer or whatever. It's about the tone, the syncopation and the energy that really gets me. Hunter has it all.


So I've had Hunter and Casey's CD for the last few months and have just listened to the s**t out of it. What great music! Anyway, I remember a while back Hunter saying somewhere on the BHO that he would be releasing this instructional dvd. I've been chomping at the bit as I have gleaned a lot from some of his earlier youtube vids. I can't say enough about how awesome I think this dvd is.

Tony, I was a little surprised, at first, when you said you thought this dvd would be appropriate for a beginner; or however you worded it. Since I received the dvd I've been working on Lonesome John. I went through the lesson. I've been listening to Hunter and Casey's recording on the CD for about two weeks straight. I've been playing it as much as I can. I watch. I listen. I play. And I do it all over again; back and forth. I consider myself an intermediate player. I still can't play it like Hunter. No surprise, huh? Who can? I could play it in my way in short order, but there is so much to be learned in learning to play it like he does. I just can't get over how good Hunter's playing is. And it's on film and broken down and in slow motion. What a gift!

After two weeks I am at a point where I think I am playing Lonesome John pretty much like the lesson. Maybe not with the variation. And definitely not with the speed, sensitivity and punctuation. But if I ever play it like Hunter it'll be amazing.

I think I will be learning from this dvd for a long time to come. Just as Hunter said about one of the tunes, ( I forget which one) that he was on his fourth major effort of distilling the tune from the original source.

If you are a beginner, I wouldn't expect to be able to pull off what Hunter is playing any time soon. And I think that's where Tony's basic tabs would come in real handy. But, to be able to see one of the great banjoists of all-time play and give a lesson in this format would have to be of great value to any aspiring banjoist. This is the real deal!

Thank you Hunter for making your years of dedication to banjo and OT music available to us.

I hope I'm not gushing too much. I just think Hunter's playing is the best!


John

majikgator - Posted - 02/19/2011:  10:31:10

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Clarity does seem to be one of Hunter's strong suits which is as remarkable a gift as his playing.

Blayne - Posted - 02/20/2011:  07:38:58

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Thanks for the tips, Tony. I downloaded Gadaya's zip file Friday and have been listening to it. I received Hunter's DVD yesterday and have watched the techniques video. I really like Hunter's descriptions and the visual format he uses.

I've also read and watched the Rocket Science Banjo materials and have found them to be great; I also donated, so I should be on your mailing list. I'm still frustrated in trying to hit particular strings accurately...I know: practice, practice, practice! I'm looking forward to your tabs for Candy Girl and the other tunes on Hunter's DVD.

BRUNO25 - Posted - 02/20/2011:  08:09:30

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I already posted in the group related to this forum, but I thought I'd post here, too.

I just uploaded a video to my youtube page of Lonesome John. It's still pretty rough, but I'd love some feedback. Lay it on me!

Thanks,
John

youtube.com/watch?v=5NTryxQ78uQ

Hunter Robertson - Posted - 02/21/2011:  06:52:04

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First off, thank you very much. My wife just finished applying the leeches to my head and the swelling's coming down nicely.

John, I think the thing with beginners learning from this DVD is that fiddle tunes are like onions (or like donkeys if you've seen Shrek!), they have layers. I mention at some point in the DVD notes that I've often been surprised in going back to a tune that I think I've learnt fairly well only to discover that there's ALL kinds of things going on that I missed the first (and second, and third...) times through. There are a lot of different levels at which you can learn and play a tune. There's also a suggestion in the notes to go back over the original tune and lesson a while after you've gotten a tune down to see what you might have missed. Some of these tunes I had first learned a little "sloppily", that is, close enough to the originals for my own purposes. When I was putting the DVD together I went back to them to get them closer to the originals so as to teach them fairly faithfully. Well, I was surprised at what was actually going on sometimes compared to a looser listening. Another point which I cover in the notes to a slight degree, is sometimes you don't want to get too close, there's a point where trying to get down too closely what the source was doing interferes with your creating your own variations on the tune. But I think some educated copying can be a big help along that path, you just have to eventually figure out when it's starting to restrain you.

Also John, I think your Lonesome John is sounding great! You've got some nice personal touches. I'd say at this point, if you haven't already, stop using the lesson on that tune and don't even listen to Salyer's recording for a while. Take the tune off in a corner and work it up in a direction you like, not particularly trying to make it sound like any other version but like what you think Lonesome John should sound like. Maybe after a few weeks of that you might want to go back and listen to Salyer's and other's versions and see if there's anything from them you'd like to incorporate.

Blayne, hang in there, it does get easier to hit the string you're aiming for!

Tony, I think those tabs could be a big help and thanks for offering to put them together. The main reason I didn't include tab is that my focus was on the things that can't be shown in tab, or that if you do, make the tab so complicated as to be unusable. I'll just put in the caveat that I think people should use them as a backup for when they're running into trouble. I have no problem with tab – and have used it a lot myself – it's just that with the underlying idea of helping people figure out their own arranging, some hunting around, trying out different things and so on can be very beneficial. I also know that sometimes it can be so frustrating you just want to scream and throw the damn banjo at the nearest wall! That's a good time for a nice cup of tea and a tab to get you past the rough patches. It'll depend on the student. But I do think your tabs will help make the DVD more accessible to a much wider audience, so thanks!

Hunter

Blayne - Posted - 02/21/2011:  11:00:48

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quote:

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Originally posted by Hunter Robertson

[...] I also know that sometimes it can be so frustrating you just want to scream and throw the damn banjo at the nearest wall! That's a good time for a nice cup of tea and a tab to get you past the rough patches. [...]

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Now you suggest a cup of tea. Oh well, I guess I'd better go pick up the pieces of my banjo.

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Edited by - Blayne on 02/21/2011 11:01:31

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 02/21/2011:  11:14:35

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Hunter
I agree with your approach and am only going to do the most basic of tabbing so that beginners can get things that they might find harder. I've at least watched every lesson now (WOW), and truly believe that any intermediate player should be able to follow this without a tab. I'm just looking to geve it somewhat more use for the beginner.

You really have a great method - go ahead and let your head swell, one you meet the Student From Hell your head will fly off like a released balloon - and I don't think I'm adding anything necessary to the DVD, just a quick study for the less experienced.

I try to keep my tab very simple most of the time. Rarely will anyone find more than one special figure in one of my tabs. This is to add new techniques, while the rest of the tab is merely to lay out the melody line. With these tabs I will take the absolute simplest line and let the video do the rest.

For those reading this. Hunter really has created a method for video. It is vastly above anything I've ever seen (or done). If I ever do any more videos they will be greatly influenced by Hunter's work, just as my tabbing style was affected by R.D. Lunceford. Hunter has really ushered in the Next Generation of Banjo teaching.

As I've been saying - this DVD is worth owning if you are serious about the banjo. I don't care if you are almost a beginner, or someone with me who still loves to try out new techniques after more than 50 years of playing fretted instruments. Even if everything on the DVD is beyond your skill level, just watching HUnter's hands will teach you a lot about playing. I'm serious - completely serious.

BRUNO25 - Posted - 02/21/2011:  11:32:46

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Thanks, Hunter. I think you've done a great thing here with this DVD. Bravo! I'm really enjoying it. I'm thrilled to hear you think my Lonesome John is coming along. And I think you're right. It is time to "take it in the corner" and make it mine. Thanks so much for all your contributions to the world of banjo and old-time music.

John

Blayne - Posted - 02/22/2011:  10:25:32

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Hunter has done a great job of picking some interesting tunes for the DVD! I had only heard a couple of them before. I especially like "Raleigh & Spencer".

Alan Hill - Posted - 02/22/2011:  21:06:38

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Well between Hunter and Tony they have made this a great thread and Tony as usual being very giving of advice and his time, I have signed up to the young pups group and I will be ordering a copy of the dvd and looking forward to Tonys tabs and I hope I will be able to give it a good go ,

Hunter Robertson - Posted - 03/15/2011:  15:57:17

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So, the DVD is now downloadable. Either through the Banjo Hangout's own video catalog ( banjohangout.org/lessons/catalog/ ) or from Mel Bay's On Demand ( melbay.com/ondemand.asp ). You have to install the software and then search for the DVD, "robertson", "puppy", something like that should turn it up.

You can also get the DVD itself from Mel Bay, Elderly and I don't know where else. You should be able to order it through your local store too.

Hunter

Hunter Robertson - Posted - 09/02/2011:  10:53:50

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I'm revivifying this thread to let people know that Tony and I have finally got some tabs done for the DVD. There are 3 now (Boatin' up Sandy, Cripple Creek and Lonesome John) and we should be getting the rest up over time. The tabs are available to those who've bought the DVD and as I don't have every buyer's email address to give them the username and password, I've used a word from the PDF booklet included on the DVD. Both are the third word on the very first page of the booklet.

Here they are: hunterrobertson.com/unpuptabframe.html

Hunter

sugarinthegourd - Posted - 09/02/2011:  18:56:01

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I just bought this DVD a couple of weeks ago, so this review is timely. I think that Hunter has a lot to teach, but unfortunately -- for me at least -- this video is greatly handicapped by the poor tone of the Harmony banjo he plays. I realize that by saying this I leave myself wide open to charges of "banjo snobbery." So be it, though I reject those charges in advance. The truth is, for me, this video is both music musically unenjoyable and didactiacally suboptimal, due to the poor tone and volume of the banjo used. I haven't watched much of it for this reason. I will probably try it once or twice more, but I doubt I will ever make it through the whole DVD for the very simple reason that I find the instrument's tone so thoroughly unenjoyable.

Sorry, Hunter. :-(

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Edited by - sugarinthegourd on 09/02/2011 19:11:20

riverstein - Posted - 09/02/2011:  21:59:00

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quote:

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Originally posted by sugarinthegourd



this video is greatly handicapped by the poor tone of the Harmony banjo he plays. I realize that by saying this I leave myself wide open to charges of "banjo snobbery." So be it, though I reject those charges in advance.

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 Too late: you just dug a hole in the meadow and jumped in it.

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I started looking at the tabs last night.  Once again a fine job from Hunter and Tony. Thanks to them. And if I can get any banjo to sound half as good as Hunter's I'll be happy. 

 

Hunter Robertson - Posted - 09/02/2011:  22:27:23

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Hi John, sorry to hear that. It's true I don't like that particular banjo as much as my copper-boarded Harmony (​I think the black strings are part of the problem) which is my favorite sounding banjo - compared to my Gibson, my S.S. Stewart and a few other banjos around the house. What can I say but that tastes vary - de gustibus non disputandum est.

Steve - thanks!

Hunter

RG - Posted - 09/03/2011:  01:53:45

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Haha...hey John-it's the archer not the arrow...a lot of old time music made on Harmony's (and they're not my favorites either) and Hunter made that one sound real nice...

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Edited by - RG on 09/03/2011 01:57:03

neillconnor - Posted - 09/03/2011:  03:28:37

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Hunter could make a biscuit tin With a broom handle for a neck sound good. To me the choice of the old harmony sounded great for the tunes he chose on the DVD, you didn't see the old time players living on substance levels on an old farmstead playing top of the line Vegas, they were for the music hall acts.

majikgator - Posted - 09/03/2011:  05:39:52

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i like the Harmony. When i was at the Florida Folk Festival this year sitting around the OT banjo tent jamming and such everybody had their newer banjos from really good builders Enoch and such, the mandatory Gold Tones and an old S.S. Stewart but the banjo everybody remarked about how much they liked it;s tone was a Chicago with a bakelite rim, he had done some fret board work on it to make it more playable but other than that just a Chicago openback, not even the little resonator. For those that don't know Chicago was an off brand of Kay, they weren't "good enough" to be a Kay. Goes to show ya. A lot of old timers played Harmony banjos and when the Japanese started making knock offs of Gibsons they bought Japanese, not a lot of work for most folks in rural Appalachia. Of course a long, long time ago they made very crude fretless banjos, The Harmony is a Rolls Royce compared to those.

i very much enjoyed the tone you were getting Hunter.

dbrooks - Posted - 09/03/2011:  07:27:38

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You can get a taste for Hunter's instructional DVD from the introductory excerpt he posted on YouTube:

youtube.com/watch?v=hLLcfklWKNQ

David

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 09/03/2011:  10:30:13

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I'm beginning to realize why John doesn't play any REAL  Old Time Music on that radio station he claims is all Old Time.

Well I guess I better forget about getting a Harmony if I want to get on SiTG. Or a Kay with a chipboard rim like Roscoe Holcomb used for most of his recordings.

 

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Edited by - oldwoodchuckb on 09/03/2011 10:33:21

MarkRough - Posted - 09/03/2011:  11:05:00

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Hmmmm, I liked the Harmony. I play a Harmony. It was my first banjo and I'd never part with it. I've accidentally discovered that I really enjoy the tone of "cheap" banjos (Good Times, Harmonies, Kays, etc.) to some of the more expensive, custom jobs. Some, not all, by any means, but you get the idea.

wgoehrin - Posted - 09/03/2011:  18:45:06

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 Haters Gonna Hate, Players Gonna Play.  

J-Walk - Posted - 09/03/2011:  19:29:34

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quote:

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Originally posted by sugarinthegourd



I just bought this DVD a couple of weeks ago, so this review is timely. I think that Hunter has a lot to teach, but unfortunately -- for me at least -- this video is greatly handicapped by the poor tone of the Harmony banjo he plays. 

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Wow! I would have to disagree 100%. That old Harmony sounds great to my ears. I have that video, and watching it actually caused me to do some Googling about old Harmony banjos  -- thinking I might be able to reproduce Hunter's tone.

I'm curious. As a point of reference, tell us a banjo that you think has a good tone.

J-Walk - Posted - 09/03/2011:  19:31:13

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Oops. I just realized that I'm participating in the hijacking of this thread.

It's about Hunter's DVD. Not one man's opinion of Hunter's banjo.

MountainBanjo - Posted - 09/04/2011:  04:40:55

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quote:

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Originally posted by J-Walk

Oops. I just realized that I'm participating in the hijacking of this thread.

It's about Hunter's DVD. Not one man's opinion of Hunter's banjo.

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As a DVD review this doesn't even belong in the "playing advice" forum so the entire thread is a hijack.

 

 

 

 

riverstein - Posted - 09/04/2011:  05:11:18

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quote:

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Originally posted by MountainBanjo

quote:

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Originally posted by J-Walk

Oops. I just realized that I'm participating in the hijacking of this thread.

It's about Hunter's DVD. Not one man's opinion of Hunter's banjo.

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As a DVD review this doesn't even belong in the "playing advice" forum so the entire thread is a hijack.

 

 

 For anyone who arrived late: the DVD is comprised of 133 minutes of clawhammer/old time playing advice.

richla - Posted - 09/04/2011:  07:38:11

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It's a dvd review of clawhammer playing techniques: what's the problem?

MountainBanjo - Posted - 09/04/2011:  08:04:38

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Well, there is a specific place on the hangout for DVD reviews. banjohangout.org/reviews/ The DVD review is already there.

ZEPP - Posted - 09/04/2011:  08:23:21

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I just received a copy of the DVD from Hunter; it's exquisitely done and covers a plethora of useful techniques, demonstrated beautifully!  Thanks for offering this, Hunter, I'll certainly be carrying it in my store, and can recommend it to anyone and everyone seeking DVD instruction.

As regards Hunter's choice of banjo, my first banjo was a Harmony.  I've had quite a few through the shop over the years, and all I can say is they're a lot better than some of the... um... "stuff" that has been on the market.  My only complaint (having nothing to do with tone) is their very narrow fingerboards.

At the same time, I see nothing wrong with not liking the sound of someone else's banjo.  That's why there are so many different banjos on the market, and how I make a living selling banjos!   I certainly take no umbrage when people don't like the sound of my banjo or the way I play.  Why would I care?

Cheers,

ZEPP

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Edited by - ZEPP on 09/04/2011 08:28:04

neillconnor - Posted - 09/04/2011:  08:37:22

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Think sugarinthegourd has thrown his toys out of the pram as he has his copy of Hunters video up for sale in the classifieds. Has he had a bad experience with a harmony in his youth??

eddorci - Posted - 09/04/2011:  09:00:21

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I'm still waiting for the tabs to go a long with the dvd. It would make it much better for me because tabs really work for me for learning stuff.

sugarinthegourd - Posted - 09/04/2011:  09:24:34

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I don't have anything against Harmony banjos at all. Maybe I should have phrased that differently.

Here is a reworded version of my complaint, which I believe has relevance to the DVD:

I don't like the tone of the banjo on the DVD. Furthermore, I find it harder than normal to hear the distinct notes being played, and which string they are coming from, as the volume of the banjo is quite low (compared to the voice) and the overall tone is, to my ears, very thin and trebly. This does in my opinion have a negative effect on my personal ability to enjoy, and to learn from this DVD.

Now, maybe the Harmony is not "to blame" for my complaint. Maybe the strings are extraordinarily light, or the bridge is very low. Maybe it has to do with the frets having been pulled. Maybe it's Hunter's technique (he's very good, but his right hand is very idiosyncratic).

OR: maybe I'm just a cranky guy with a tin ear, a lifelong vendetta against Harmony banjos, or someone who wouldn't know REAL old-time music if it hit him in the head. I'll leave that to each of you to decide.

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Edited by - sugarinthegourd on 09/04/2011 09:29:08

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 09/04/2011:  10:30:10

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I had wondered why you preferred modern recordings and perhaps this is it. I love Shortbuckle Roark's recording of "I Truly Understand" and find no reason to fill up hours of bandwidth with copies by imitators. Different strokes - but a lot of the reason why I program my listening from my own record collection these days.

I consider it to be a loss to those who are trying to understand this music that the best they can listen to are 4th generation copyists. The last people who played the tune in Roark's unique rhythm were McCutchen and Wry Straw - apparently that 40 year old hi-fi stereo recording is also to antiquated for SiTG.

sugarinthegourd - Posted - 09/04/2011:  10:55:13

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Look at the 2nd tab here: sugarinthegourd.com/tab/

I love the old stuff, in fact SITG originally played 78s primarily and I still mix it up a lot. Lately I've been playing a more contemporary mix but that will change again soon. One problem when I play a lot of old recordings that I love best, is that I get a lot of emailed complaints from people who want to hear modern recordings like they hear at festivals. Yes, a lot of these, and many of he emails come from banjo players who want to hear modern festival-style drop thumb.

I would give up my entire collection of revival recordings (the stringbands Highwoods and Double Decker would be the hardest to surrender) before I gave up my treasured comps of 78s and field recordings from Yazoo, Document, Folkways, or Old Hat.

sugarinthegourd - Posted - 09/04/2011:  10:58:02

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PS not sure I've ever heard John McCutcheon though I have seen the Wry Straw LPs many times in record stores and flea markets. Worth checking out? Most of that 1970s stuff sounds contrived to me.

maryzcox - Posted - 09/04/2011:  11:06:08

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Hello,
Looked at the youtube and thought Hunter's camera angles were really fine for instruction. Both hands and the fretboard and strings view nicely. But even nicer is Hunter made an effort to record with CLEAN fingernails.
Good job :)
Best wishes,
Mary Z Cox
maryzcox.com

riverstein - Posted - 09/04/2011:  11:08:17

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quote:

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Originally posted by sugarinthegourd





I don't like the tone of the banjo on the DVD. Furthermore, I find it harder than normal to hear the distinct notes being played, and which string they are coming from, as the volume of the banjo is quite low (compared to the voice) and the overall tone is, to my ears, very thin and trebly. This does in my opinion have a negative effect on my personal ability to enjoy, and to learn from this DVD.



Now, maybe the Harmony is not "to blame" for my complaint. Maybe the strings are extraordinarily light, or the bridge is very low. Maybe it has to do with the frets having been pulled. Maybe it's Hunter's technique (he's very good, but his right hand is very idiosyncratic).

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 Maybe it has to do with the fact that you haven't -  by your own admission in first post -actually WATCHED the DVD which you have now twice dismissed (and have on sale in the classifieds). You've told us you are too sensitive to view much of this material and will probably never make it through the full DVD on account of the intolerable banjo tone. And indeed once you have sold your copy it will  certainly be difficult to learn from it.  Please spare us therefore your speculations on banjo/voice volume relationships, bridge height and right hand idiosyncrasies.  

sugarinthegourd - Posted - 09/04/2011:  11:25:34

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I've had enough of this forum and its groupthink hostility. I expressed my opinion. No need to engage in all this hostility.

Goodbye, banjo hangout. And congrats oldwoodchuck. You've made the old-time sections of this place consistently more tiresome ever since you got here. Now it's become intolerable.

And yeah, my own hostility probably makes me a hypocrite. But I took quite a few blows before I said what I've long been thinking.

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Edited by - sugarinthegourd on 09/04/2011 11:57:04

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 09/04/2011:  12:20:11

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John,

I've felt your growing hostility since before I quit trying to keep your forums alive. I also feel that hostility toward me has more to do with your summarily blowing off Hunter's videos than anything Hunter, who is much more of a gentleman than either of us, has done. Ask yourself: Have you treated Hunter unfairly to get to me? - If yoou have it is obvious I'm enough of a fool to help you get away with it.

My apologies to Hunter for this.

Take a look at his videos without thinking about the fact that I reviewed the DVD john, and perhaps you will change your mind about them. I doubt you will ever admit it, even to yourself, but it might prove to be educational. I know I'm learning new things from the DVD all the time. I may not be able to use them well, but I'm learning. I've finally got a handle on Chip Arnold's "Pull Off" and I'm working on getting in extra thumb notes.

 

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Edited by - oldwoodchuckb on 09/04/2011 12:31:05

JRushing - Posted - 09/04/2011:  12:27:12

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This reminds me of a friend of mine and I use the term loosely. I play bluegrass on a goldtone OB175 and he has a Stelling red fox. Now I would never say this but I've been told my playing far exceeds his, so this is the reason he constantly down talks my banjo and my playing. He can't hear it, it's out of tune, it's to loud, the intonation is off, maybe I could change so and so part because the cheap parts aren't functioning properly, and many other issue including my lack of skill in general. Now I can't afford a Stelling, but to be honest I really like my banjo and I've had alot of compliments on it. The point is I don't think someones choice of instrument should be held against them in some way. The knowledge is still there and that's what should be taken away from the video. Mike Seeger has played some strange banjos in his videos, but I don't remember them one way or another. I do however remember the techniques he taught.

About Harmony banjos, I fix and restore these all the time to trade or sell to students and beginners. Some of these banjos are pretty decent. Like Roscoes Kay, deep well resonator,wood no-hole rim, and steel tone hoop. That's more than you get with many banjos today. I say this alot but cheap back in the day is way better than cheap today. And back then these banjos weren't necessarily cheap. They were a nice step up from the home made fretless mountain banjos they were probably used to playing. I don't think a player should be judged be his instrument, but on his skill and respect for the craft.

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 09/04/2011:  12:34:48

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I paid about 50 dollars for my Harmony in 1959. That was a vast amount of money for me at the time. I never did get used to the thin neck but that has more to do with my hand than the banjo.