Richard Dress - Posted - 02/01/2011:  17:51:23

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For all of you bluegrass musicians (not banjo players) who are trying to learn the banjo, snowed in for the next couple of days and getting bored. Here is a question that you can help me with. I am working up a list of musicianship skills, i.e. things you gotta know to play bluegrass (i.e. radio play quality). I got this far and ran out of steam. Can you give me more things to put on the list?

Genre (bluegrass)
Repertoire
Hearing chord changes
sense of rhythm
dexterity
...?
...?

Thanks

banjotef - Posted - 02/01/2011:  18:03:17

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Beyond the technical skills of manual dexterity and a good ear, there is a certain mentality, perspective, and instinct that makes a bluegrass musician; same as the kind of person who makes a good minister, police officer, or military. All of the pioneers we can name, they were, and are,
"Bluegrass".
John Wayne described it well in "She Wore a Yellow Ribbon", speaking of the female actress who wanted to return East to a nicer and easier life: "She ain't Army".

boonjoer - Posted - 02/01/2011:  18:13:26

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Doesn't drive people crazy

Kenneth Logsdon - Posted - 02/01/2011:  18:14:13

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Knowing where to play on the Bluegrass beat..(most common misconception/mistake is midbeat playing. Learn the difference between Bluegrass/country/ standard gospel,etc)
Learning the "feel" of the music..

rstieg - Posted - 02/01/2011:  18:34:17

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How about Taste, Tone, and Timing?

banjer5 - Posted - 02/02/2011:  04:57:05

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I think desire is the primary thing.

Fred

coelhoe - Posted - 02/02/2011:  06:51:56

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Thorough history of the idiom, instrumentally and vocally.

Diamond Eagle - Posted - 02/02/2011:  07:32:25

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In a band setting, dedication and a team mentality.

minstrelmike - Posted - 02/02/2011:  08:36:54

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Bluegrass is a band music so playing well with others and feeling their rhythm is a prereq for being a 'bluegrass' musician.

Richard Dress - Posted - 02/02/2011:  11:33:23

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Thanks for all the suggestions. A lot of them are already covered by my list, but I think ensemble skills, which several of you suggested, need to be added to the list.

Sorry about being so vague with my words. Thinking about all these posts made me think that playing by ear should also be on the list.

My imaginary BG musician then must have these skills/knowledge in addition to the technique associated with the instrument.

1) knowledge of bluegrass genre
2) performance list (repertoire)
3) hear chord changes
4) keen sense of rhythm
5) dexterity with strings
6) play-by-ear
7) ensemble experience

Can a BG musician get by without any of these? Anything else missing? Thanks.

Lightfingers Clepto - Posted - 02/03/2011:  08:14:15

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Pretension.

McUtsi - Posted - 02/03/2011:  08:29:50

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Theory & musical notation/tab...BG is a concise form of music.McUtsi

Richard Dress - Posted - 02/03/2011:  08:38:12

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Pretension. A good point. I'll have to think about it. I don't have a mental state on my list, but maybe there should be. I can't imagine a banjo player who doesn't harbor some sort of intense banjo attitude. By that I mean love, pretension, egoism ... mild emotions aren't enough to power the banjo impulse.

Should 'banjo passion' be on the list? You have to admit that it is necessary, but should it count as a knowledge/skill? Do I need another list of psychological factors affecting banjo playing? That might be a little scary, I don't know.

Here's a new list with banjo skills added. Now I have a breakout of what it takes to be a banjo player:

1) banjo passion
2) knowledge of bluegrass genre
3) performance list (repertoire)
4) hear chord changes
5) keen sense of rhythm
6) dexterity with strings
7) play-by-ear
8) ensemble experience
9) banjo lessons

Thank you all. I got a lot out of this thread.

Richard Dress - Posted - 02/03/2011:  08:46:33

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Theory would be on the list, except that in real life it doesn't seem to be very important to BG pickers. I am thinking that what little theory you need, you would acquire through 'play-by-ear'. That's my thinking on it, anyway.

I want to just look at those things that you can't do without and tab/notation is something you can do without.

marklori - Posted - 02/03/2011:  10:22:04

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Actually I think theory is huge. The really good pickers know their instrument inside and out and know how they are applying the chords, scales, licks, etc. All of them that I have met know their theory, but I think most learned it as a matter of necessity from the school of hard knocks, trial and error, and lots of practice. Personally I think that diploma beats a university degree any day of the week.

o2playlikeEarl - Posted - 02/03/2011:  10:25:07

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Appreciation for the music is a must, recognition of true talent in others and a willingness to progress is valuable too.

RB-1 - Posted - 02/03/2011:  11:19:18

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quote:

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Originally posted by marklori

All of them that I have met know their theory, but I think most learned it as a matter of necessity from the school of hard knocks, trial and error, and lots of practice. Personally I think that diploma beats a university degree any day of the week.

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If so there should be more of them than the handful that earns a decent living on playing bluegrass.....
Remember Lee Marcus, a stellar picker, who gave up full time playing to pursue a career to feed his family?
I'd prefer a university degree and playing the banjo near perfection...
I failed on both.....

GW in Ohio - Posted - 02/03/2011:  12:23:44

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A good bluegrass musician should know the Nashville Numbering System, in order to communicate readily with other bluegrass musicians.

In the Nashville Numbering System, for any key, the root chord is numbered 1. Many (most?) bluegrass songs use 3 chords. 3-chord songs usually employ the 1, 4 and 5 chords. So in the key of G, G is the 1 chord, C is the 4 chord and D is the 5 chord. In the key of C, C is the 1 chord, F is the 4 chord and G is the 5 chord. A number of bluegrass songs also use the 2 chord. In the key of G the 2 chord is A.

Darcy - Posted - 02/03/2011:  13:19:02

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Something that I think more people should pursue. Creativity and individuality.

tombrien - Posted - 02/03/2011:  13:33:24

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GW in Ohio, I have noticed the 6 chord in many tunes also. It is the relative minor, Tom

musicman44 - Posted - 02/03/2011:  20:55:21

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One critique that I've heard from a lot of non-banjo players is knowing how to adequately play back-up. For banjo players, I think this is crucial as there is a lot of emphasis in tutorials, instruction books, etc. for licks, solos, and melodies. But where's the knowledge for musical back-up for the other instruments?

Gymbal31 - Posted - 02/04/2011:  11:57:14

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quote:

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Originally posted by musicman44

One critique that I've heard from a lot of non-banjo players is knowing how to adequately play back-up. For banjo players, I think this is crucial as there is a lot of emphasis in tutorials, instruction books, etc. for licks, solos, and melodies. But where's the knowledge for musical back-up for the other instruments?

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YES!!

GrayBanjo - Posted - 02/04/2011:  12:04:20

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Gotta be from the south.

Haha, well that's what makes a real picker.

O.D. - Posted - 02/04/2011:  13:24:25

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You need to be "musical".
You need to be able to convey the same emotion in your playing that you get from listening to others play.
I comes from inside of you.
This something I have not been able to conquer.
Anyone have any suggestions?
Regards, O.D.

Magolli - Posted - 02/04/2011:  17:21:52

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I think that solidarity is a good attribute for any good banjo player. From my perspective the banjo takes a very lead role in bluegrass music and I think a good banjo player needs to know when to play good back up, and that means leaving ground for the rest of the band to express themselves. Not always you have to be rolling at light speed to express the good nature of music.

The humble opinion of a begginer...

Richard Dress - Posted - 02/04/2011:  22:25:16

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"You need to be "musical"." -- OD

I agree. I think that is covered by 5) keen sense of rhythm.

banjo5don - Posted - 02/05/2011:  03:30:12

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I think the most important attribute to a BG musician is knowing when/what not to play. About 90% of the tune, pickers are not playing a solo. So knowing what/what not to do during that time is crucial. I spend 90% of my practice time working backup, We naturally want to pick the hot licks and cool breaks and we should be ready to do that. But those players who only can do that should only play contests, not in bands,IMO!
Don

JackieM - Posted - 02/05/2011:  04:52:08

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My thoughts are, to be a good bluegrass musician you have to immerse yourself into those early recordings, back when the music was inventing itself. Listen to everything at every chance you get, morning, noon and night! Saturate your mind with those songs and then the attributes mentioned earlier, hearing chord changes, timing, knowing when not to play, rhythm will all come.
History is a great teacher.

Jack

banjoholic - Posted - 02/05/2011:  05:36:26

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This has been touched on by some, but I'd add "active listening" to the list. By that I mean paying attention to the sound of the group as a whole as opposed to just what you're doing on your instrument. Paying attention to what everyone else is doing and the whole sound that's being created (and using that to guide what to play, what not to play, how loudly to play, etc) is perhaps one of the key things in my mind that separates the really great ones from the rest.

Josh
oldtimejam.com

stanleytone - Posted - 02/05/2011:  07:14:57

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manners and jam ettiquette also form the make up of a good BG musician.you can be the best picker in the parking lot,but if you always hog the show and walk all over everyone else,you make get the reputation as a jam buster.

Richard Dress - Posted - 02/05/2011:  07:21:45

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Thank you all, but I think some you are drifting off track. The list is for skills you MUST have. A lot of things have been suggested but so far I have only gotten two items that are must-have. Keep on coming, though.

Jim Yates - Posted - 02/05/2011:  11:41:50

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quote:

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Originally posted by banjoholic

This has been touched on by some, but I'd add "active listening" to the list. By that I mean paying attention to the sound of the group as a whole as opposed to just what you're doing on your instrument. Paying attention to what everyone else is doing and the whole sound that's being created (and using that to guide what to play, what not to play, how loudly to play, etc) is perhaps one of the key things in my mind that separates the really great ones from the rest.

Josh
oldtimejam.com

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I think banjoho0lic has hit on the most important skill for any musician who plays with others and specifically a bluegrass musician. If you can't hear the rest of the group, especially the soloist, then you're playing too loudly. Don't use the same back-up for a guitar break as you would for a fiddle break. **Take turns playing fill licks. It sounds bad when the banjo and the mandolin both try to fill in the holes at the same time. Add a fiddle and...

**While I try to follow this practise even in jams, it's really important in a performance situation. Decide in advance who's playing the fills for the first, second, third...vocal... or at least have some routine for deciding -"If the fiddle takes the break, the banjo does the fills on the next vocal..." I know there are some who will say,"that takes all the spontinaity out of the song. We never play the same song the same way twice." Fine, you can play totally improvised solos, but don't step all over your bandmates' playing. After all, you're putting on a show.

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Edited by - Jim Yates on 02/05/2011 11:56:30

minstrelmike - Posted - 02/05/2011:  11:54:11

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I suspect it's going to be easy to drift off track because many of the items that are needed to define a good musician independent of genre are the same ones that define a good bluegrass musician.

About the only differences that wouldn't apply are those between solo musicians and team musicians because bluegrass is about the band, the harmony and the interplay of the instruments. Bluegrass is not a solo endeavor.

That is about the only difference in 'good musician' that I can see wouldn't apply.

1935tb-11 - Posted - 02/06/2011:  12:15:09

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banjo is just a PART of the whole sum of bluegrass. touch, feel,
timing, tone, either it be lead or back up is a part of the whole sound of bluegrass in song structure. a bad banjo back up can
make a great fiddle or mandolin break sound awful. even though
the banjo is considered by many as the promenent instrument in the band it is still just a part.
now that being said, it dosen't mean when it is your turn to take a break that you don't own the stage, you do! but banjo breaks
are only a small part of each song. knowing back up is in my opinion much more inmportant then all the flashy breaks in he world. we all want to be heard but we all want the whole song to sound balanced and as good as we can.
i might be a little of topic here but i think its the most important part of being a good (in our case) bluegrass musician. learning how to inhance anothers break or solo or song phrasing is one of the hardest things to master. just my 2 cents


terry m

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Edited by - 1935tb-11 on 02/06/2011 12:16:09

JonT - Posted - 02/06/2011:  13:48:22

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Richard, I would think that to determine that to be just a bluegrass musician would be terribly limiting. A musician who can play bluegrass, however, might just be able to play anything else.

As an example, Sam Bush is a mandolin player who can play just about anything. Bela Fleck is a banjoist who can play anything.

I should think that learning the phrasing and timing that may be exclusive to bluegrass would be something that any competent musician could do.

Richard Dress - Posted - 02/06/2011:  14:56:40

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Thanks, JonT. Everyone is making good points. I limit my list to BG just to keep it simple and in context of Scruggs style.

The list is like a list of ingredients rather than a description of the actual baked cake:

1) knowledge of bluegrass genre
2) performance list (repertoire)
3) hear chord changes
4) keen sense of rhythm
5) dexterity with strings
6) play-by-ear
7) ensemble experience
8) banjo technique

In other words, the cake may turn out OK or it may flop because the phrasing and timing is atrocious. There is no guarantee with any recipe.

The list of ingredients is a good starting point for anyone's self-assessment so they can turn their attention and efforts to the most effective directions. For example, if you are weak in #4 then maybe contra-dance lessons are in order.

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Edited by - Richard Dress on 02/06/2011 14:57:17

Old Hickory - Posted - 02/07/2011:  07:52:28

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Good list. But I'd make a few slight adjustments:

3) what you're talking about here is simply called ear -- which is reflected in the ability not only to hear chord changes but to anticipate them. In fact, this whole concept is covered by your item 6) play by ear
4) I'd simply say sense of rhythm -- "Keen" strikes me as a qualitative judgment. A competent musician's sense of rhythm just needs to be good enough to keep time.
5) dexterity with strings . . . seems to me to be part of: 8) banjo technique
7) ensemble ability (rather than merely "experience," which might not be particularly good)

And I agree with others who suggest that a bluegrass musician needs to understand a certain amount of music theory. At a minimum, they should know enough about keys and chords to be able to transpose on the fly, including deciding whether (and where) to use a capo.

archtop717 - Posted - 02/07/2011:  08:15:13

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I feel you left a very big one off this list " improvisation". This is why I play the banjo. To me, paying it like you feel it is everything and is what makes Banjo interesting. Although I understand that you called it a Scruggs style list and maybe it is not so important for the beginner Banjo player, but it will be eventually.

stanger - Posted - 02/07/2011:  13:14:17

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So far, no one has mentioned the most important thing:
A player has to be able to sing. Bluegrass is mostly vocal music, so being able to sing, at least a little, is an absolute necessity.
regards,
stanger

archtop717 - Posted - 02/07/2011:  14:11:28

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I think you are correct Stanger, singing is the greatest part of Bluegrass music, but you can play Banjo and not sing, many do, including pros. I love to sing with my wife in our band, esp. gospels.

Old Hickory - Posted - 02/07/2011:  14:19:18

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It's great if you can sing, but you don't NEED to be a vocalist to be a musician. I've seen many groups where not everybody sings.

Archtop: You're right about adding improvisation ability to the list. In some respects, that's the culmination of the other required attributes: repertoire, ear, rhythm, technique and ensemble ability.

stanger - Posted - 02/07/2011:  21:47:32

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Hi, Hickory...
True. You don't need to sing to be a musician, but you need to be able to sing to be a bluegrass musician.

A singing banjo player can find a bluegrass band a lot easier than a non-singer, even if his playing is only so-so. Being a virtuoso player is great, but singing is the key to joining a group and making money with a group. A person doesn't have to be a good singer, but shouldn't be afraid of singing.

It's a skill than needs to be developed even for the closet players who will never play out. Singing really helps a beginner get a sense of how most banjo tunes work, and good players use singing phrasing in their playing as it helps distinguish the melody from the rolls.
regards,
stanger

Richard Dress - Posted - 02/07/2011:  21:56:47

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If the list gets too long, I think beginners will become intimidated. Eight things on the list is already enough to make some of them nervous.

They will say "Here I am learning rolls, chords, licks, tabbed tunes, scales, and who knows what else. And now there are seven other fields of knowledge to conquer before I can be a scruggs. What's going on here?"

dlc - Posted - 02/07/2011:  23:46:56

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Ability to improvise on the fly.

And that does NOT necessarily mean creating new solos on the spot.

For most, it means developing a large and varied catalog of short licks to string together when your time comes to shine.

A "finished" bluegrass banjo player also needs the relaxed self-confidence it takes to be arguably the most important instrumentalist in the band without letting self-doubt keep his licks safe and basic.

And, on a more esoteric level, a true bluegrass player understands the soul-inspiring charm of a long drive through the country on an out-of-the-way dirt road.

And I'll DEFINITELY second Stanger's comments on singing. There's a kind of unwritten rule among working-class musicians that says, in essence, "if you don't sing, you don't count."

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Edited by - dlc on 02/07/2011 23:49:01

wb4yal - Posted - 02/08/2011:  05:35:18

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Someone who enjoys the company of other bluegrass musicians and has a passion to play the music is a bluegrass player. It is hard to describe the concept but it is what is in your head. I grew up listening to the old-time bluegrass in the early 60's which at that time was called Country and Western. This style of music has affected the way I think about music and the way I hear the tunes that I play today.

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Edited by - wb4yal on 02/08/2011 05:36:09

Lightfingers Clepto - Posted - 02/08/2011:  08:13:36

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Is the list ordinal? If not, could we rank the characteristic by importance first then weight each by a "difficulty to master" measure. Its sort of intimidating for me. More than half the items on the list seem to be abilities rather "fields of knowledge".

Old Hickory - Posted - 02/08/2011:  08:39:45

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lightfingers Clepto

More than half the items on the list seem to be abilities rather "fields of knowledge".

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Well, you need both. And it's best when the latter translates into the former.

Richard Dress - Posted - 02/08/2011:  09:06:48

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A formula of knowledge and skills needed to create a banjo player. Although singing is a great thing for many reasons we see voiceless banjo players all around so that can't go on the list. Same thing with music theory--it doesn't get through the gate. Same with improv (I think there are a few banjo players who can't improv, like some of those contest hotshots). We could work on putting the list into a different order--I like that idea, but that seems like a tough project.

Besides it's only a checklist meant to give beginners an idea of why they aren't musicians yet, even though they learned (#8) a bunch of tabs, rolls, and chords.

1) knowledge of bluegrass genre
2) performance list (repertoire)
3) ear for chord changes
4) sense of rhythm
5) dexterity with strings
6) play-by-ear
7) ensemble ability
8) banjo technique

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Edited by - Richard Dress on 02/08/2011 09:09:04

Old Hickory - Posted - 02/08/2011:  09:35:35

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quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Dress

Same thing with music theory--it doesn't get through the gate. Same with improv (I think there are a few banjo players who can't improv, like some of those contest hotshots).

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Gotta disagree here.

As I mentioned earlier -- and was paraphrasing a comment by another Hangout member in a another recent discussion -- some elements of music theory may be things that musicians know without actually knowing they know it. But I don't see how you can have #3-ear for chord changes or #6-play-by-ear without at some level -- conscious or sub-conscious -- understanding something about music theory. Just being able to "hear" that a chord has gone from something major to something minor requires enough theory to know what major and minor chords sound like. Same with hearing that highly probable chord change from D near the end of a verse back to G (or any V to I). If you can hear that change -- or, as I said before, anticipate it -- you know something about theory even if you don't know you know it.

As for leaving improv ability off the list -- I have no idea who or what you're referring to as "those contest hotshots" (who presumably can't improvise). Not saying it'snot a valid reference. Just that it's nothing I've ever encountered. (And I'll admit to having been at almost no contests.)

More to the point, I believe bluegrass is at its core a highly improvisational art form. I've seen that aspect of it in every jam, festival parking lot session, and band performance I've ever participated in. What are you going to do when you go to a jam and someone calls out "How Mountain Girls Can Love" and it's a song you've played only once or twice in your life and have never had any reason to work up a solo for it? Are you going to sit that one out? Of course not. Any bluegrass musician worth his salt is going to hear the chord changes (#3), pull relevant elements from his perforance list (#2), and apply his banjo technique (#8) and ensemble ability (#7) to improvise something appropriate and musical during both backup and lead.

I don't see how you can be a bluegrass musician without being able to improvise.