Richard Dress - Posted - 02/24/2011:  11:45:36

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You all can take the topic anywhere you like, as far as I am concerned. I think I got a lot out of it and thank everybody for contributing. Go to it.

But on the side, what if you have all the skills you need? What's next?

You can go over the checklist and tic off every item. You can do it all, anticipate chord changes, play finger patterns unconsciously, sing all the parts to all the songs, play all slurs perfectly, know the fingerboard, have a deep understanding of the genre--you wrap all this into solid rhythm and you are ready to go. But go where? All these things give you the capability to perform, but they don't tell you what to do or how to play a specific song. You need an approach that will bring your skills to bear on the problem at hand and produce a successful outcome.

Any thoughts on the process that a picker goes through to actually perform/improvise on stage?

pasturepicker - Posted - 02/24/2011:  14:04:47

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Pete Wernick's book, "How To Make A Bluegrass Band Work" addresses many of the issues that have been discussed in this thread. The book has been around for a long time now but most of the content is still very applicable in todays bluegrass world. He examines musical, entertainment, and business aspects of bluegrass music.

Tom- I wasn't trying to hijack the thread or dis Earl or Louise. My post was in direct response to your post to Mickey 5-String. I think that it is a valid answer to your request for an example of compromise by a bluegrass musician. You have indeed brought a lot of valid ideas to this thread and I value your opinion based on your years of professional experience.

Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/24/2011:  15:52:44

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Thanks Andy, Wernick's book is a must read.

I strongly disagree that Earl Scruggs is an example of a bluegrass musician who has compromised bluegrass, quite the contrary. He's brought the banjo and bluegrass to a much wider audience. When he crosses over to another genre and works with country, country-rock or pop artists, he's now playing outside the bluegrass genre, He is bringing his Scruggs banjo sound with him, his sound, but that's not compromising bluegrass.

People don't have to like it when he crosses over, but it's no longer bluegrass proper. Artists don't have to limit themselves to a single genre. If he didn't play the music that he wanted to play, so that he wouldn't disappoint the fans who only want him to play bluegrass, then he would be making an artistic compromise, and he wouldn't be true to himself. He is true to himself, a great man who follows through on his music.

Earl Scruggs is a music artist, who happens to be one of the greatest bluegrass composers and instrumentalists of all time. He will always represent what is valid and uncompromising in bluegrass music. He is the quintessential banjo player in the genre. He was the first to perfect the bluegrass banjo sound. It would silly to argue that he has ever compromised his style to play in the bluegrass genre, though you didn't say that. He's not a prisoner of a single genre and can play whatever style of music he wants.

In a useful thread about what constitutes a BG musician, where Earl Scruggs is cited as an example of a compromise in bluegrass, or that he is a poster-boy for someone who has compromised bluegrass, then something is terribly, terribly wrong. He really deserves a lot more respect than that. You made your point, but I don't think it's valid (because you say it is) or fair to Earl Scruggs. Let's not denigrate our heroes, please. Earl set the standard, let's not compromise him. LOL

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Edited by - Tom Hanway on 02/24/2011 16:00:00

pasturepicker - Posted - 02/24/2011:  17:43:00

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I am not denigrating Earl or Louise. I don't see where making compromises is necessarly a bad thing. I would have to speculate that some of the cover material chosen for some of the later recordings of Flatt and Scruggs was a business decision, not an artistic decision. Wouldn't that be making some kind of compromise? The music I refer to is well under the umbrella of what most people would call traditional bluegrass music. I do believe his later music with the Earl Scruggs Review and the music he is making now crosses genres and are things he genuinely wanted to do. I have no problem with that and this is not what I was referring to.

I'm sorry I posted on this thread and I'm back in the lurk mode.

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Edited by - pasturepicker on 02/24/2011 17:46:30

Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/25/2011:  04:33:34

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quote:

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Originally posted by pasturepicker

I am not denigrating Earl or Louise. I don't see where making compromises is necessarily a bad thing. I would have to speculate that some of the cover material chosen for some of the later recordings of Flatt and Scruggs was a business decision, not an artistic decision. Wouldn't that be making some kind of compromise? The music I refer to is well under the umbrella of what most people would call traditional bluegrass music. I do believe his later music with the Earl Scruggs Review and the music he is making now crosses genres and are things he genuinely wanted to do. I have no problem with that and this is not what I was referring to.

I'm sorry I posted on this thread and I'm back in the lurk mode.

---

To Richard, thanks for your last post, which I also want to respond to. That’s generous of you. I’ve learned a lot from this thread too!

To Andy, ah, now I feel bad, because you write great posts. I know you’re not sullying the Scruggs’s, though I wish you hadn’t brought Louise into this. I know how you feel about posting in BHO because the well has already been poisoned for me – all my posts called into question before I even post them, and who has been bitten? It's no fun to have one’s desire to post poisoned in these threads, by off-topic or unsubstantiated venom (not you). It violates BHO protocol to make personal thrusts, lumping a person’s past posts together and categorizing them, publicly chewing up an individual. It’s diabolical, as we say in Ireland. Haha. But it’s BHO, and boys will be boys. No harm.

Though I don't like all of their later-day recordings, I don’t think that Flatt & Scruggs really compromised bluegrass at any stage by crossing over to country or pop music, because they were already the “darlings” of pop culture after the Beverly Hillbillies TV series. The Ballad of Jed Clampett reached #42 on the record charts during the series' debut season in 1962. It went to #1 on the country charts in January 1963.

Flatt & Scruggs's place in the music industry is quite extraordinary, because they also appeared on national TV, some of my favorite episodes! They didn't compromise themselves or bluegrass; they were bigger than bluegrass, being in show-biz. People might have gotten jealous, but they brought bluegrass to a much wider audience, and gave people respect for bluegrass musicians by their professionalism, even the way they dressed. If it made them happy artistically, where's the compromise? I do believe there was a trickle-down effect in their case. They brought loads more fans to bluegrass, and a lot of us wanted to pick up banjo, and we did. (This, to be eaten alive in BHO threads – I’m joking.)

I feel no animosity towards anyone. It’s great to be alive and in the mix! Love you guys, love thinking about this stuff. It’s a problem of communication via forums, so impersonal and compromising. LOL. We have to soldier on, confidently, with Big Love in our hearts. We’re on the same human team.

So please don't feel bad, Andy, you have the calm courage of your convictions, and everybody should respect your candor: Your passion is obvious and your speculation useful for the purposes of this thread: “I would have to speculate that some of the cover material chosen for some of the later recordings of Flatt and Scruggs was a business decision, not an artistic decision.”

That’s a fair statement, but I don’t agree with your conclusion, that’s all. Still, I wonder, how can any of us know that Flatt & Scruggs were sacrificing artistic decisions for solely business ones if we weren't there? We would have to speculate and that proves nothing, though it leads to more speculation. No harm in that either. My opinion is just one, and you know what they say about opinions? (I can't tell that joke here.)

I hear you loud and clear: I think major artists have made some really bad song choices, songs that made me cringe and want to lift up the needle (at the time), now it’s clicking a button.

Okay, maybe artists, are looking for hits, thinking that they are playing something contemporary, keeping up with the times. That could be a combined artistic and business decision – they don’t have to be at odds with each other – with the hope of reaching a wider fan base and selling more commercial product, getting on TV and radio. It’s a viable marketing strategy to get ahead in the music business, also not to be dropped by one’s label. That’s playing in the Big Leagues, which bluegrass artists have to do, when they have to compete with all the drek, dance routines and laser-light shows that are dominating the business.

Pickers are even playing four-handed bluegrass guitar on YouTube, spoofing Lady GaGa’s ‘Bad Romance’, which is hilarious and maybe even entertaining, for a laugh, if you like that sort of thing: youtube.com/watch?v=pEKp0Yu-HqU

Music and business can work together; it’s not necessarily a compromise to look for hits. Bluegrass can compete with pop music. Let's take it to 'em!

I loved the Jim & Jesse tribute recording to Chuck Berry ("Berry Pickin' in the Country"), which some may see as a compromise, and I wish I had it with me in Ireland – it’s with my dad’s record collection back in NY. I don’t see that as a musical compromise, though I think it was a savvy artistic and business decision. It works for me. It’s still art, and there’s no accounting for people’s tastes, or the questionable tastes of others. Anyone for ‘Petticoat Junction’? Haha!

In the Big Leagues, it’s playing “the game”, but it’s also about being at the top of one’s game, even calling the shots and choosing which pitches to swing at, though we love to speculate and second-guess from the bleachers.

None of my ideas are written in a spirit of rancor or meanness. I am aware that "poisoning the well" has already occurred in this thread, directed at me, for strong positions I have held to in the past. I understand how you feel about going back into "lurk mode". Don’t be bullied by “poisoning the well”, flaming or over-reactive, emotional responses is all I can offer. Hang in there, buddy.

To retreat from expressing one's views freely is the ultimate compromise, or capitulation. Don’t do it.

I welcome your views, your willingness to state something that is potentially unpopular. That takes guts and shows real honesty. So, please don't stop posting on my account.

I've been bitten on this thread pretty hard already, but I don't quit because someone publicly eats a lot of my past positions and drops them all together as a lumped indictment about me as a person. That's pure fundament (not the fundamentals).

Warmest wishes - Tom

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Edited by - Tom Hanway on 02/25/2011 04:48:10

Lightfingers Clepto - Posted - 02/25/2011:  08:27:08

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Tom,

The info was great, learned much that I had no knowledge of before thank you for that contribution. I do not hesitate in saying that you have probably forgotten more about music than I will ever know. I am here to learn and again thank you for providing the opportunity for me to learn.

But for what its worth mate, your passive aggressive backhanded condescending advice instructing how someone should interact with you is tedious and really annoying. If you need for me to point-out examples to understand to, disregard my post.

Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/25/2011:  08:43:22

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lightfingers Clepto

Tom,

The info was great, learned much that I had no knowledge of before thank you for that contribution. I do not hesitate in saying that you have probably forgotten more about music than I will ever know. I am here to learn and again thank you for providing the opportunity for me to learn.

But for what its worth mate, your passive aggressive backhanded condescending advice instructing how someone should interact with you is tedious and really annoying. If you need for me to point-out examples to understand to, disregard my post.

---

Ha ha, funny, ha ha.

Who is the poster? Real name? Isn't it so simple to toss off a personal attack when you're an anonymous troller. I'm not even sure you're a banjo player.

I'm not impressed, never heard of ya, Sir Clepto.

minstrelmike - Posted - 02/25/2011:  08:53:27

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Just because someone isn't using their real name doesn't mean what they say is incorrect.

Look up ad hominem.

Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/25/2011:  08:58:55

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True, and it doesn't mean that it is correct. Look up cowardice.

minstrelmike - Posted - 02/25/2011:  09:03:18

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Make your point without denigrating people, Tom.
That's what the first poster tried to say and you ignored it with an attack.
Cowardice comes in a variety of ways, one of which is the refusal to reconsider words or attitudes.

Mike Moxcey

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Edited by - minstrelmike on 02/25/2011 09:04:38

Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/25/2011:  09:08:31

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quote:

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Originally posted by pasturepicker

I am not denigrating Earl or Louise. I don't see where making compromises is necessarily a bad thing. I would have to speculate that some of the cover material chosen for some of the later recordings of Flatt and Scruggs was a business decision, not an artistic decision. Wouldn't that be making some kind of compromise? The music I refer to is well under the umbrella of what most people would call traditional bluegrass music. I do believe his later music with the Earl Scruggs Review and the music he is making now crosses genres and are things he genuinely wanted to do. I have no problem with that and this is not what I was referring to.

I'm sorry I posted on this thread and I'm back in the lurk mode.

---

Again, to Richard, thanks for your last post, which I also want to respond to. That’s generous of you. I’ve learned a lot from this thread too!

To Andy, ah, now I feel bad, because you write great posts. I know you’re not sullying the Scruggs’s, though I wish you hadn’t brought Louise into this. I know how you feel about posting in BHO because the well has already been poisoned for me – all my posts called into question before I even post them, and who has been bitten? It's no fun to have one’s desire to post poisoned in these threads, by off-topic or unsubstantiated venom (not you). It violates BHO protocol to make personal thrusts, lumping a person’s past posts together and categorizing them, publicly chewing up an individual. It’s diabolical, as we say in Ireland. Haha. But it’s BHO, and boys will be boys. No harm.

Though I don't like all of their later-day recordings, I don’t think that Flatt & Scruggs really compromised bluegrass at any stage by crossing over to country or pop music, because they were already the “darlings” of pop culture after the Beverly Hillbillies TV series. The Ballad of Jed Clampett reached #42 on the record charts during the series' debut season in 1962. It went to #1 on the country charts in January 1963.

Flatt & Scruggs's place in the music industry is quite extraordinary, because they also appeared on national TV, some of my favorite episodes! They didn't compromise themselves or bluegrass; they were bigger than bluegrass, being in show-biz. People might have gotten jealous, but they brought bluegrass to a much wider audience, and gave people respect for bluegrass musicians by their professionalism, even the way they dressed. If it made them happy artistically, where's the compromise? I do believe there was a trickle-down effect in their case. They brought loads more fans to bluegrass, and a lot of us wanted to pick up banjo, and we did. (This, to be eaten alive in BHO threads – I’m joking.)

I feel no animosity towards anyone. It’s great to be alive and in the mix! Love you guys, love thinking about this stuff. It’s a problem of communication via forums, so impersonal and compromising. LOL. We have to soldier on, confidently, with Big Love in our hearts. We’re on the same human team.

So please don't feel bad, Andy, you have the calm courage of your convictions, and everybody should respect your candor: Your passion is obvious and your speculation useful for the purposes of this thread: “I would have to speculate that some of the cover material chosen for some of the later recordings of Flatt and Scruggs was a business decision, not an artistic decision.”

That’s a fair statement, but I don’t agree with your conclusion, that’s all. Still, I wonder, how can any of us know that Flatt & Scruggs were sacrificing artistic decisions for solely business ones if we weren't there? We would have to speculate and that proves nothing, though it leads to more speculation. No harm in that either. My opinion is just one, and you know what they say about opinions? (I can't tell that joke here.)

I hear you loud and clear: I think major artists have made some really bad song choices, songs that made me cringe and want to lift up the needle (at the time), now it’s clicking a button.

Okay, maybe artists, are looking for hits, thinking that they are playing something contemporary, keeping up with the times. That could be a combined artistic and business decision – they don’t have to be at odds with each other – with the hope of reaching a wider fan base and selling more commercial product, getting on TV and radio. It’s a viable marketing strategy to get ahead in the music business, also not to be dropped by one’s label. That’s playing in the Big Leagues, which bluegrass artists have to do, when they have to compete with all the drek, dance routines and laser-light shows that are dominating the business.

Pickers are even playing four-handed bluegrass guitar on YouTube, spoofing Lady GaGa’s ‘Bad Romance’, which is hilarious and maybe even entertaining, for a laugh, if you like that sort of thing: youtube.com/watch?v=pEKp0Yu-HqU

Music and business can work together; it’s not necessarily a compromise to look for hits. Bluegrass can compete with pop music. Let's take it to 'em!

I loved the Jim & Jesse tribute recording to Chuck Berry ("Berry Pickin' in the Country"), which some may see as a compromise, and I wish I had it with me in Ireland – it’s with my dad’s record collection back in NY. I don’t see that as a musical compromise, though I think it was a savvy artistic and business decision. It works for me. It’s still art, and there’s no accounting for people’s tastes, or the questionable tastes of others. Anyone for ‘Petticoat Junction’? Haha!

In the Big Leagues, it’s playing “the game”, but it’s also about being at the top of one’s game, even calling the shots and choosing which pitches to swing at, though we love to speculate and second-guess from the bleachers.

None of my ideas are written in a spirit of rancor or meanness. I am aware that "poisoning the well" has already occurred in this thread, directed at me, for strong positions I have held to in the past. I understand how you feel about going back into "lurk mode". Don’t be bullied by “poisoning the well”, flaming or over-reactive, emotional responses is all I can offer. Hang in there, buddy.

To retreat from expressing one's views freely is the ultimate compromise, or capitulation. Don’t do it.

I welcome your views, your willingness to state something that is potentially unpopular. That takes guts and shows real honesty. So, please don't stop posting on my account.

I've been bitten on this thread pretty hard already, but I don't quit because someone publicly eats a lot of my past positions and drops them all together as a lumped indictment about me as a person. That's pure fundament (not the fundamentals).

Warmest wishes - Tom

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Edited by - Tom Hanway on 02/25/2011 09:12:33

Richard Dress - Posted - 02/25/2011:  09:19:13

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Well said and gentlemanly.

Richard Dress - Posted - 02/25/2011:  11:47:25

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And thanks for stopping by and shedding some class on the thread.

pasturepicker - Posted - 02/25/2011:  13:15:14

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While Tom Hanway and I aren't necessarily in agreement in this discussion, he is a professional in the bluegrass industry, deriving a major portion of his income from the business, and still willing to potentially jepardize his career to some extent by sharing his ideas on this forum. To me, this gives him a lot more credability than someone who remains anonymous. Most professionals are reluctant to post on internet bluegrass forums or discussion groups for fear of creating controversy which will adversely affect their livelyhood. This is too bad because they have a lot of experience and knowledge to offer. I know for a fact that some well known bandleaders prohibit their members from getting involved in discussions on the internet.

Bluegrass- we eat our own

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Edited by - pasturepicker on 02/25/2011 13:18:33

Richard Dress - Posted - 02/25/2011:  13:49:58

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That is a good point to bring forward. Tom is paying a price to speak his mind. I don't think anyone would tell him this exposure advances his career.

Bluegrass - we starve out our own.

Unless we are Irish. (I saw on the internet that the govt in Dublin doles out an annual $100,000 artist grant to resident banjo pickers. It helps draw foreign investment.)

joke

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Edited by - Richard Dress on 02/25/2011 13:50:59

Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/25/2011:  16:23:39

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Here's a survival tip for an aspiring banjo player surrounded by a biker gang:

Back in the late 80s I had a great night with Rick Danko (The Band), playing with him on stage at Uncle Willie's in Kingston, NY. I sat in for his entire set, and he played a lot of bluegrass gospel tunes, Band tunes, new stuff. I winged it -- no rehearsal. In fact, we met backstage where I was hanging out with a local biker gang, purely by accident. I wanted to meet Danko. I was dressed up as if I were going to play on stage, polished Tony Lama boots, best Levi's, Navaho silver bolo tie, pony tail, clean shaven, Aramis cologne, happy-go-lucky-pretty-boy smile. Huge mistake!

It was Jorma Kaukonen's birthday, Jorma from the Airplane/Hot Tuna, and I was studying guitar with him at the New School at the time and a few of us drove from NYC to Kingston to hang out with him and see Danko, party, etc.

I was helping myself to their beer, filling a cup, when a big paw connected to a humongous-mean-looking biker landed on my shoulder.

"Who the f**k are you?"

"I'm Tom, I'm a friend of Jorma's, I play the banjo".

Mean biker, "Oh yeah, play the f***ing banjo Tom!" (More mean-looking bikers come in from the back door, wearing their colors, a local gang.) I got out my banjo really fast, not saying a word (scared to death), and played Foggy Mountain Breakdown as fast as I could, as close to Earl as I could make it. No weird stuff. Scruggs.

Big biker: "Okay, Tom, you can drink our beer!" Smiles and laughter all around. Phew!

I was introduced to Danko by this same biker later, who road up on his bike, five minutes before his show, sopping wet, big grin, guitar on his back, "This is Tom, he can play the banjo!" We shook hands and Rick said, "Okay, wait by the curtain and I'll call you up." I did. He was introduced by an emcee, sitting on a stool, then turned around and shouted back at me, "Hey man, what's your name?"

"Tom," I whispered loudly. He turned back around and to the audience gave me a Danko introduction, "This is Tom, he's going to play banjo, give him a hand!" (Applause)

It might have ended badly, with me in a dumpster.

So, what's the moral of the story?

Be ready to play or die.

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Edited by - Tom Hanway on 02/25/2011 16:36:55

Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/25/2011:  17:35:25

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quote:

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Originally posted by pasturepicker

While Tom Hanway and I aren't necessarily in agreement in this discussion, he is a professional in the bluegrass industry, deriving a major portion of his income from the business, and still willing to potentially jepardize his career to some extent by sharing his ideas on this forum. To me, this gives him a lot more credability than someone who remains anonymous. Most professionals are reluctant to post on internet bluegrass forums or discussion groups for fear of creating controversy which will adversely affect their livelyhood. This is too bad because they have a lot of experience and knowledge to offer. I know for a fact that some well known bandleaders prohibit their members from getting involved in discussions on the internet.

Bluegrass- we eat our own

---

Andy Alexander, bless you. I've made my share of mistakes and I'll keep on makin' 'em. I had legal training, chucked it, but I still write in funny obnoxious prose when I'm trying to be objective. My bad. I can only say that it's hard to align those two portions of my brain-cell, my ideals about bluegrass and the school-of-hards-knocks reality about being a musician who just wants to work and get my banjo heard.

I have played on a lot of recording sessions here in Ireland, country stuff, bringing in Scruggs-style banjo to lift the music. The artists don't want me to play whatever I feel like, but something that just propels it along and doesn't get in the way. I enjoy doing that. Sometimes I'm asked to double on the fiddle, note-for-note, and I don't mind that either. I'll do whatever they ask. I just do it.

I'm a studio musician doing his job, doing what is asked for and required. I don't argue in the studio. If I did, if I had an attitude, I wouldn't get re-hired. And I've played on tracks with most of the country artists here in Ireland. They hire me for my bluegrass banjo (country sound).

In a word: Scruggs.

No problem. It's part of my living. I love it!

Here's something I did with a young singer, Nathan Carter. Now, he's also a trad player, a multifaceted musician, an entertainer and pure gentleman. I have another track with him (maybe it's not out yet -- can't find it). I have lots of recordings like this with Irish country artists, and I count my lucky stars that I can get 'em. People look down on "Country'n'Irish" music in Ireland, always holding up American country as the standard. It's jaded, opinionated, mean and usually said by people who can't even pick. I hate that.

I teach a lot, play and develop various artists and songwriters, gig with them, and I pick banjo with the Molly Hicks (bluegrass). I also work on my Irish stuff, playing sessions, always looking for the best sessions, trying to take stock of myself, working on my next books/recordings/videos. That's a work in progress.

My mother-in-law, Mona, great lady, is gravely ill and I'm just trying to support my wife. Life is tough at the moment, so I like to read and write to keep my mind distracted from the misery and poverty that is Ireland.

I still have a lot to learn about living.

Okay, Nathan Carter, one of Ireland's up-and-coming young country singers:

youtube.com/watch?v=sBuszcnYixE

I don't mind putting this link here because it shows that bluegrass pickers are country pickers who can listen and do the job. That's a requisite skill in my mind: listening and playing the right part.

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Edited by - Tom Hanway on 02/25/2011 17:50:40

Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/25/2011:  18:07:52

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Okay, as an addendum to my last post, since I can't tack it in there, here's the one I couldn't find before. It was right at the top. Haha. I really loved this session. I was sick as a dog, dying with flu and I had trouble tuning the banjo by ear, useless, but we had tools for that! I was psyched though, no bother!

Nathan Carter again, One for the Road:

youtube.com/watch?v=TJatAWNQZGg##

I would add that bluegrass instruments get to play like themselves if they play in context with the song and the band. I always listen to the track once or twice through before I go for it.

I read charts, it's important. Time is money. But I usually have to add my own notation just to know where I am. Charts are vital in saving time in the studio: Nashville System.

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Edited by - Tom Hanway on 02/25/2011 18:12:12

Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/26/2011:  15:27:51

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quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Dress

You all can take the topic anywhere you like, as far as I am concerned. I think I got a lot out of it and thank everybody for contributing. Go to it.

But on the side, what if you have all the skills you need? What's next? *snip*

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Keep training your ear, keep learning tunes and licks, and learn how to work in the recording studio. Having musicianship skills or bluegrass skills is not enough. Learning how to work in a professional recording studio with other musicians, a producer and/or engineer is a pretty steep learning curve. (Learning to engineer and produce is a whole nother set of skills, but one can leave that to experts and concentrate on being the one recorded.)

Since you guys brought up that I do this for a living, the videos I put up (previous two posts) have me playing Scruggs-style banjo for country recordings with artist Nathan Carter, one of the many Irish country artists I've recorded with. Obviously, it's not my bluegrass work. Listen for where it sounds particularly Irish. I have to be sensitive to that too. I'm in Ireland. For me, having a Scruggs and bluegrass background translates into studio work. I've recorded with over a dozen different country and bluegrass artists since moving over in 2003.

I was touring heavily with a country band, The Outlaws, for a few seasons, but I didn't like being away all the time, so I stopped. I now play bluegrass with the Molly Hicks and work with different artists and songwriters, playing solo (blues guitar and eclectic banjo) and also teaching. Ireland cannot support full-time touring bluegrass bands. The venues and festivals simply don't exist, being few and far between. I didn't come here to play bluegrass anyway, I came for love.

I've recorded bluegrass with artists on both sides of the Atlantic, also in Nashville with Grammy-producing engineer Bil VornDick, doing bluegrass and original newgrass tunes, with Sam Bush, Jerry Douglas, David Grier, Vassar Clements, Stuart Duncan, Roy Huskey, Jr., and Mark Schatz. I have also worked and recorded with a lot of great pickers in NY and Massachusetts, including Kenny Kosek, Tony Trischka, Bill Keith, Kevin Maul, Barry Mitterhoff, Danny Weiss, Larry Cohen, and the Provincetown Jug Band.

Making bluegrass recordings with knowledgeable players is a great way to learn what's really happening and what's not happening in your music. It calls for self-assessment and makes you look hard at your own weaknesses as a player, which you can then take steps to correct. It’s always a learning curve.

I am no purist, being eclectic, and I love traditional music. Bluegrass is just one traditional style for me, and I play lots of Irish traditional and other Celtic music. I sometimes shape-shift between styles and can go back and forth between Irish tunes and bluegrass songs. It's being fluent and fluid, and this pays dividends. I also love blues, traditional jazz and other jazz.

I make a point of learning traditional melodies from many genres, stating the melody, not stringing licks together. That helps me in the recording studio because I have a vast knowledge of tunes at my fingertips, for example, American, Irish and Scottish fiddle tunes. I focus a lot on melody and I can lock into them quicker than a lot of musicians who play around them.

I've made it my business (and part of my livelihood) to learn traditional melodies on the spot, note for note, and execute them on recordings. This translates into session work because I can hear a track and quickly figure out what the fiddle is playing and double it (for the most part). I save people time in the studio and get hired back (more session work). I don't have to go home and learn something, and then come back in a few days. Time is money. I don't waste studio time.

So the most important bluegrass skill I have is being able to play by ear, but I've gone further with it, moving outside bluegrass, learning lots of non-bluegrass tunes, also learning how to play traditional variations without leaving the mode (scale). It's playing in context, playing confidently.

Having the ability to figure out tunes quickly in the studio and record them within minutes gives me great satisfaction. It also pays some bills.

So, once you got all your BG skills together you can take it to the recording studio, get used to that environment and work on becoming a studio musician, and once you get a reputation for doing quality work, also for being prompt, organized and working fast, maybe you can became an in-demand session player. That’s a practical goal for a BG musician.

Not everybody is comfortable doing studio work and it's a learning curve. I used to get uptight. Now I joke my way through sessions, and I enjoy the process. Sometimes you have to take things in small chunks. That's a skill learned by doing and watching other musicians do it.

I love recording with Irish artists and I pride myself on it, and it doesn't bother me in the least to play banjo on country, rock, Celtic, folk or crossover recordings. If it brings 5-string banjo to new places, it's exposing 5-string banjo to new audiences. No harm.

The ear-training and skills I got from playing bluegrass have helped me to move outside of bluegrass and explore other genres. It's always great to come home to bluegrass: it's home, like sitting beside the fire.

So, bottom line for BG musicians: don't be complacent about tune knowledge or let yourself get stuck in a rut. Don't stop learning tunes because you think you have enough (according to a Top 20 BHO list). It's only the tip of the iceberg.

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Edited by - Tom Hanway on 02/26/2011 15:33:55

Lightfingers Clepto - Posted - 02/26/2011:  15:40:14

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My name is Patrick Thomas Taylor, 10434 Lackland Rd., St. Louis, Missouri, 63114. You can reach me at 314-614-8921 any time you like.

Lightfingers Clepto - Posted - 02/26/2011:  15:46:52

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You write volumes and call me a troll for giving you the biggest compliment I have given anyone.

If you are ever assaulted by a group of bikers, it won't be because you were not ready to play your banjo.

jimh269b - Posted - 02/26/2011:  16:03:31

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just how good of a banjo picker are you dress

Richard Dress - Posted - 02/26/2011:  18:05:51

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A lot better now than I was for the first thirty years. I would have given up long long ago except I didn't understand how bad I was and just kept plugging along until I figured it out.

beenjammin - Posted - 02/26/2011:  19:18:07

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"You write volumes and call me a troll for giving you the biggest compliment I have given anyone.

If you are ever assaulted by a group of bikers, it won't be because you were not ready to play your banjo."

and others...



there's a saying in Newfoundland I'm rather fond of: "grow up by's". okay so its not so much a saying but a general statement that's meant to convey the general idea that you should be an adult who can take criticism without acting like a child.

if your perspective is challenged deal with it. there's no excuse for resisting self criticism.

recognize your betters and learn from them or ignore them. it can even happen all in one post, as long as you're an adult about it you will learn, otherwise you're going nowhere.



as far as the thread goes, i've been following it with a lot of interest and i've been waiting for a good time to mention that in my limited experience i've never met anyone who was a master at any one style. anyone worth their salt as a musician as a musician, not as a bluegrasser or folkie or celtic trad player. i guess my point is that it seems to me that what constitutes a good bluegrass musician is two: on the one hand you need to be a good bluegrass(er) and on the other hand you need to be a good musician which tom and others have alluded to. so all the qualities that make a good bluegrass musician seem only to be half the equation......FWIW..I think

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Edited by - beenjammin on 02/26/2011 19:19:23

Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/27/2011:  05:58:32

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quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Dress

That is a good point to bring forward. Tom is paying a price to speak his mind. I don't think anyone would tell him this exposure advances his career.

Bluegrass - we starve out our own.

Unless we are Irish. (I saw on the internet that the govt in Dublin doles out an annual $100,000 artist grant to resident banjo pickers. It helps draw foreign investment.)

joke

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Well, the banks have just put an end to fixed mortgage rates, so rates will only go up, and more people will default and lose their homes, very sad, it's happening all over the country. The banks (junk banks) will continue to keep money out of circulation, contributing to even worse economic decline.

You're right about Fáilte Ireland's grants to private banjo charities and pyramid schemes. Resident American 5-string pickers, unfortunately, don't get a piece of the pie being considered "blow-ins", one step above illegal aliens. (joke)

McUtsi - Posted - 02/27/2011:  06:26:50

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Where´s this thread going..?..McUtsi

Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/27/2011:  08:55:54

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quote:

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Originally posted by stanger

About compromises...

I think it really all depends on what an individual or a band considers what constitutes a compromise.

Using Bill Monroe as an example- Bill never included Foggy Mtn. Breakdown in his play list, ever. But Scruggs had given him Bluegrass Breakdown, which is essentially the same tune with one chord's difference, and whenever the audience called for Foggy, Bill gave them Bluegrass Breakdown.

Is this compromise or not? Personally, I don't think so.

In my own case, when I get a call for Foggy, I play it like I want. I usually start with just enough of the Scruggs elements to make it recognizable, then take off and do whatever hits me at the moment. I'll improvise widely on it, make it a part of a medley, cut it very short, and carry on with it. I'm me, and Earl is Earl. I'll never be him, or he me, so why bother trying to play every note he played 50 years ago when he recorded it?

Am I compromising? Again, I don't think so. I like to improvise on the fly, so I play like I like to play. If another player wants to play Foggy note for note, that's fine with me. I could probably do it too, but I lost my imitation of any other player long ago.

I'll leave exact replication of notes up to the classical music world, where it's a big deal to play everything exactly as written.
regards,
stanger

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Stanger, long ago, made a personal choice not to be an "imitation of any other player." Creating and developing a sense of "style" and not compromising it is the essence of being a music artist, whether staying within the confines of bluegrass or moving outside it. Everybody has to play like themselves: you can't be somebody else; you have to be whom you are and work on yourself. It's following creative impulses, not being beaten down by conformist ones.

Stanger makes a great point. Bluegrass musicians can get too involved in what purists or critics think if they take chances musically, or play extended jams like New Grass Revival used to do. Traditionalists have been known to be disdainful of innovators who play something that somebody else deemed "traditional" didn't play first. "That ain't bluegrass." Okay, then! Haha.

It's that old traditional vs. progressive debate that we used to read in Bluegrass Unlimited. It's artists being put on a pedestal for something, only to be dragged down for something else in the next breath. You used to see a lot of it in BNL too, and Hub Nitchie (RIP) enjoyed the controversy because it made for good copy and kept up circulation. (I remember writing a letter to the editor concerning a rant from the Flint Hill Flash, who made a mockery of Béla Fleck and Tony Trischka in his monthly column. He replied and insinuated that I was gay. Funny stuff in hindsight. That was in the 80s.)

It's GREAT to see that Sam Bush was recently acknowledged at the IBMA Awards as the "Father of Newgrass", as deemed by Kentucky state legislation. Bush’s hometown of Bowling Green, KY, also received the official title as the “Birthplace of Newgrass.” Mighty fine, mighty fine!

So, does that mean that Sam Bush is no longer a true bluegrass musician? Has he compromised bluegrass or sold his soul to the devil? That's one for the critics.

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Edited by - Tom Hanway on 02/27/2011 09:00:33

Richard Dress - Posted - 02/27/2011:  09:05:21

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Interesting, Tom. I am not sure about the accuracy of IBMA saying that about 'Father of Newgrass'. I believe that the IInd Generation might have blazed that trail along side of the NGR if not a little bit ahead. Maybe I'll ask Martha about it.

Sorry to joggle off your point.

Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/27/2011:  15:31:12

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Originally posted by Tom Hanway - Viewer Discretion Advised

No problem, Richard, the IBMA only reported on it, after the State of Kentucky gave them a grant for an undisclosed amount (between $1,000 and 1,050.37) to rename the organization to keep up with the times and move next year's INMA "World of Newgrass" back to Louisville, KY and let NashVegas, TN control the dinosaur Country music industry, which is losing market share to Newgrass. The Bluegrass state now claims Bluegrass and Newgrass music for its own, though it's facing a lawsuit from a certain Jimmy Brown ("the Newspaper Boy") Monroe over the use of the trademark "Bluegrass", hence the crossover to Newgrass (for legal reasons).

Eddie Adcock's IInd Generation might have been playing newgrass before New Grass Revival, though I don't know if he called it that. Innovative hillbilly artists that pounded the dirt road for "progressive" bluegrass would have to include Alvin & the Chipmunks, The Wayouts, The Country Gentlemen, John Hartford, The Dillards (Wheatstraw Suite - 1968), The Osborne Brothers, Jim & Jesse (Berry Pickin' in the Country - 1965), Roger Sprung & his Progressive Bluegrassers (1963), and the original Earl Scruggs Revue (before Earl joined).

Read Richie Unterberger's interesting article about the new Dillards who were not exactly bluegrass, not exactly folk-rock, and not exactly country-rock.

Rare footage of the "New Acoustic" (Newgrass) act debuted on the Ed Sulliston Show in the mid-60s, The New Bluegrass Wayouts.

Viewer Discretion Advised: Not Suitable For Children over 14.

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Edited by - Tom Hanway on 02/27/2011 15:33:33

Tom Hanway - Posted - 03/05/2011:  17:24:12

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quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Dress

Well said and gentlemanly.

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I enjoyed all of it. It's all learning curve.

Tom Hanway - Posted - 03/05/2011:  17:49:59

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lightfingers Clepto

You write volumes and call me a troll for giving you the biggest compliment I have given anyone.

If you are ever assaulted by a group of bikers, it won't be because you were not ready to play your banjo.

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Lighten up buddy.

Richard Dress - Posted - 03/05/2011:  18:57:25

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Very informative, Tom. I didn't realize that the Dillards were into it so early.

swoody1 - Posted - 03/05/2011:  20:17:53

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I think the following applies to any musician who plays in a band. Each individual must be able to compliment the other member of the band, not only the instrumental part but the vocals. Knowing when to apply runs or licks as to not override the vocals. There are some really good banjo players in my area. It doesn't take long to weed out the ones who don't know how to play professionally in a band. Adding too many licks or trying to play too fancy does not always compliment the band. TASTE...... makes a difference in a band setting.

Tom Hanway - Posted - 03/07/2011:  12:23:33

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quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Dress

Very informative, Tom. I didn't realize that the Dillards were into it so early.

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Richard, neither did I, but I had a hunch they were involved from very early on because they were doing TV back in the early sixties – the Darling family on the Andy Griffith Show – and hanging out, already TV stars, with all the seminal LA country-rock musicians, so they were already old furniture when a lot of crossover bluegrass/country/rock stuff was going down.

Please find:

‘Dooley’ - the Darlings on Andy Griffith.

‘Ebo Walker’ - check out Barney on the ’shine.

‘Picking in Jail’ - Andy has to deal with jailbait – too funny.

quote:

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Originally posted by swoody1

I think the following applies to any musician who plays in a band. Each individual must be able to compliment the other member of the band, not only the instrumental part but the vocals. Knowing when to apply runs or licks as to not override the vocals. There are some really good banjo players in my area. It doesn't take long to weed out the ones who don't know how to play professionally in a band. Adding too many licks or trying to play too fancy does not always compliment the band. TASTE...... makes a difference in a band setting.

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Absolutely 100 percent spot on! It's part of experience gained in playing in ensembles (not just bluegrass) and just having good manners. Nobody with intelligence and self-respect appreciates an insult disguised as a "compliment" in a bluegrass band situation. The musical smart alec, lacking taste and restraint, doesn’t last too long in bands.

It's a requisite skill to complement the other members musically as well as to pay them regular compliments verbally for their accomplishments, banter, sartorial skills and the like. The latter aspect of social decorum also comes in very handy in marriage and long-term relationships.

Bands are like marriages. Couples who, in the long term, complement one another have probably spent a life-time paying each other nice compliments.

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Edited by - Tom Hanway on 03/07/2011 12:33:33