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Stivini61 - Posted - 01/30/2011: 15:49:05
Has anyone heard of a wood treatment that heats the wood to 350-400 degrees for several hours to essentially dry out any remaining moisture while "carmelizing" the sugars? The actual chemical process might not be carmelization, but the point is that anything edible is rendered inedible, making the piece of wood uninteresting to bugs, bacteria, and molds. Attack from munchers is a small problem for most banjos, but I also understand that the wood both darkens in color and becomes more resonant. These properties may be in interest to builders.
I looked through the Hangout and found a remarkable number of articles about baking food, including a discussion of lump vs. briquettes, but nothing on this topic. Any ideas?
theonly1hardway - Posted - 01/30/2011: 16:05:34
I've heard of folks baking or nukeing wood for bridges but never the whole banjo....however some may have tried....I do believe that wood being what it is, is going to take on and release moisture no matter what you do to it.... not for sure about cooking the sugars....the idea does sound interesting though!
harrisonbanjos.com
Edited by - theonly1hardway on 01/30/2011 16:06:08
Brian T - Posted - 01/30/2011: 16:37:38
I recall that the acoustic values in wood depend on both the elastic and non-elastic properties, not just the anatomy.
While cooked wood may be less attractive to pests, I'd find some finish better to get the best of both worlds.
I suggest an experiment with mahogany, maple and walnut (certainly popular instrument woods)
Cut two pieces of each say, 1.5" x 1.5" x 8". Listen to the tap-notes of each. . . hopefully the pairs will be similar.
Cook one of each at 375F for 3 hrs (should you preheat the oven or not? Is this [FF]?)
When cooled, test the tap notes again.
If I were a gambling man, I'd expect that baking to have done some damage.
VTturner - Posted - 01/30/2011: 18:41:04
Don't burn the house down. The flash point of wood is F. 451. At 350, You will begin to smell something happening. I think the highest temp that wood should be treated to is less than 200 degrees, but don't do that to your rim, the glue might break down and it won't be a rim anymore. I kiln dry rims at a low temp. for a few days to stabilize them. It seems to work pretty well.
O.D. - Posted - 01/30/2011: 18:48:34
Being in the Construction biz, I DO recall a couple of guys talking about this very topic.
They spoke of heating wood to change the molecular structure of the wood.
I think they mentioned the density of the wood became greater by virtue of the heating process., along with some of the benefits you mention.
It was a while ago that this discussion took place so thje details are a little sketchy at this point, however ,in answer to your question, YES I have heard of this process.
Incidently I thought the topic would have surfaced in the banjo community sooner than this. This is the first Ive read about here on the BHO
lets hear more!!
regards, O.D.
Brian T - Posted - 01/30/2011: 20:56:15
If the treatment was useful, everybody would be doing it. I think it's a waste of (otherwise) good wood.
I did wood anatomy research and (univ) teaching in dendrology for 40+ years. Can't say that it was something
that I ran across even once a year.
Dan Pennington - Posted - 01/31/2011: 05:43:33
Acoustic guitar builders are baking spruce tops. I've bumped into that on the luthier forums a lot. Speeds up the aging process.
Caramelizing? I prefer butterscotch.
john m - Posted - 01/31/2011: 06:45:20
Way more to drying wood than just heating it up. I don't believe I've ever seen anything about heating above 240F...and that is considered a very high drying temp. Take a look at this article, lots of great info ca.uky.edu/agc/pubs/for/for55/for55.htm
John
Stivini61 - Posted - 01/31/2011: 19:01:35
Thanks everyone for the ideas. I'll try to contact someone at one of the big tree state ag extension offices and report back if I find anything.
Helix - Posted - 02/01/2011: 04:40:05
It's a good question and one different concept.
Carmelization is the destruction of organic proteins, pre-charring if I'm not mistaken, like BBQ charcoal, not quite wood anymore, so that's why I would strongly question the acoustic signal.
Personally, it has no class, in my opinion, and if you can't use the wood, what else do you use it for?
Reason with me: there is a luthier over here who is famous for using TIME, GRAVITY and WEIGHT to form the sides of his guitars, no steam, no stress, no stretching of the original signal, just bending over a period of time. He asks the wood.
Or if you ain't got the time, we TELL it.
O.D. - Posted - 02/01/2011: 08:56:45
Im not sure of the effects on wood after a 1 time heating.
I have come across info that relates to the wood after numerous heatings.
As in heat transfer from a fireplace or other vented heating device.
Ive built more masonry fireplaces than I can remember so heat transfer to wood construction has always been a MAJOR consideration in the design/construction .
In my many discussions with other people in my field I appears that wood will become more flammable by virtue of the moleculor structure being change due to heat. So a particular framimg memeber may not initialy combust when subject to heat, after exposure to heat over time could make the wood more flammable.
I dont think it is related to the "dryness"of the wood,but more to the cellular structure changes caused by repeated heatings.
It is sort of like soil compaction.
It is possible to compact disturbed(non -virgin) soil to ) 0 compaction.
0 compaction is not the same as "virgin" soil, due to the soils molectular struction changing when it is disturbed( excavated,etc)
Regards, O.D.
Lachlan - Posted - 02/01/2011: 11:08:43
quote:
Originally posted by Helix
It's a good question and one different concept.
Carmelization is the destruction of organic proteins, pre-charring if I'm not mistaken, like BBQ charcoal, not quite wood anymore, so that's why I would strongly question the acoustic signal.
Personally, it has no class, in my opinion, and if you can't use the wood, what else do you use it for?
Reason with me: there is a luthier over here who is famous for using TIME, GRAVITY and WEIGHT to form the sides of his guitars, no steam, no stress, no stretching of the original signal, just bending over a period of time. He asks the wood.
Or if you ain't got the time, we TELL it.
I think you might be referring to prolysis, which is the denaturation of organic compounds like proteins, but that must be done in the absence of oxygen, and does not even begin until the temperature is 800* F or higher. Carmelization is definitely the oxydation of sugars. I don't know exactly what high temps, like 300* F, would do to the lignin in wood, but consider this: lignin is bonded to hemicellulose and crosslinked to polysaccharides, which lends strength to wood. Oxydizing the sugars seems like it would break some of those covalent bonds between them and the hemicellulose and lignin. Softer wood? Is this maybe how those Scandanavian companies make those "molded" wood pieces? It must be some version of releasing the bonds between lignin and hemicellulose and cellulose. Lignin is the hard stuff that fills the spaces inside the wood.
Helix - Posted - 02/01/2011: 12:29:47
I was wrong, I knew somebody had the goods. thanks.
Kenneth Logsdon - Posted - 02/01/2011: 16:00:04
The process of "fire hardening" of wood has been used for thousands of years...Most commonly in referance to "toughning" of the wood used for shafts and weapons, wooden plow shares.. same for the heat in straightening warp in wood, as the wood cools it takes a new "set"..
The wood does change, becomes harder and brittle... It can be polished and shined quite readily... As above I suspect that it does drive the moisture and alters the fibers...
Bonuscup98 - Posted - 02/01/2011: 17:19:04
I thought this thread was kind of a joke when I first saw it, but when I looked at my Guitar Center mailer and saw that they roasted the neck on a Music Man bass, I was dumbfounded. Everyone's doin it.
And I quote, "...roasting process produces a neck with greater stability and resistance to temperature and humidity, decreased weight, increased resonance, and a stronger fundamental tone."
Sounds like a stretch.
Waltj - Posted - 02/01/2011: 17:41:44
I for one would never bake wood. I have dried wood to very low moisture levels with very low heat, light bulbs in a closed box creating a 95 to 100 degree temps for 2 or three days. This process insures the wood shrinks well below ambient humidity levels to create tight fitting joints in windsor chairs when the wood re-stabilizes to the ambient conditions.
After initial drying, wood always, always maintains a moisture level determined by the ambient moisture level. You could completely dry out a piece of wood in an oven and then when it is placed back into its old environment it will go back to its old moisture level. Some finishes will slow this process down but eventually the wood stabilizes. Subjecting wood to high temperatures, in my opinion, will only cause damage to the fibers. Old growth lumber that has been sitting in a barn for 150 years is no drier than the environment it was stored in. Wood always stabilizes to its environment.
Pat Y - Posted - 02/01/2011: 19:08:35
I am familiar with the process. Have sold a truckload or two of the stuff. The purpose is for rot and insect infestation retardation. The color of the wood is darkened and it has a burnt smell about it. Would it change the tonal qualities??? Who knows. Wood will always seek a moisture content where it is at equilibrium with its immediate enviornment. That typically means dryer in the winter and a bit higher in the summer here in the midwestern US.
Stivini61 - Posted - 02/03/2011: 06:03:45
I contacted Jim Reeb, the author of the article John M posted, to ask whether he knew anything about baked wood. He was kind enough to reply and asked a colleague to reply as well. Here is the reply from the colleague and Jim Reeb's reply will be in the next post. They both replied within a day! Those folks in Oregon sure have efficient forestry service workers!
From these and other posts it seems that the only path now is for someone to make identical four identical instruments from the same stick of wood. We need a baked and an unbaked three ply laminated rim as well as a baked and unbaked block rim. Any takers?
-----------------------------------------------------
I have heard some about thermal treatment/modification of wood. However, as Jim indicates below, the context has always been with respect to improving properties like durability that are more critical to wood's use in structures vs. instruments. In fact, I recall a discussion with a guitar maker years ago where I asked him if he was willing to buy some Sitka spruce sawn and dried on the north coast of Oregon rather than from Alaska. He said that the local stuff was junk for musical instruments because the growth rate is too rapid. Further, he said that kiln-drying, or any kind of 'excessive heat', ruins the acoustical properties due to the formation of micro-cracks within the wood. I find nothing in the research literature to support these statements. However, I haven't seen much research on acoustical properties of wood and regardless, I doubt if an academic publication on the topic was going to alter someone that was speaking from experience!
You can find some information on thermally-treated wood at thermotreatedwood.com/what.html. However again, the list of properties include durability, stability, and color rather than acoustical properties.
What about boiling? I know that woodworkers in Oregon (e.g., bowl
turners and carvers) boil blocks of Pacific madrone to make it less
susceptible to warping and splitting. From a wood structure point of
view, I'm not sure why this works - but numerous people swear it does.
Last but not least, I attached an article I found a couple years ago
about wood density differences between modern violins and those made by
masters like Stradivari. On page 5 there is reference to a technique
known as ponding - "Within the violin making tradition there have been
many reported 'secrets' of the Cremonese makers although usually with
little or no supporting documentation. Sporadically, reference is made to
the wood treatment referred to as 'ponding', whereby wood submerged in
stream water (to facilitate transportation or to alter the properties of
the wood intentionally) is responsible for the classical Cremonese sound."
We'd be glad to hear what you try and how it turns out!
Scott
_____________________________________________________________
Scott Leavengood
Director, Oregon Wood Innovation Center
Oregon State University
Stivini61 - Posted - 02/03/2011: 06:04:45
This is Jim Reeb's reply.
------------------------------------
I don't know about baked wood but found this on the internet:
Thermally Modified Wood Deckingby PureWood
PureWood
Using Stellac technology originally developed in Scandinavia, the makers of PureWood call their product "wood, only better." A thermal modification process has each batch of the Southern yellow pine decking baked in a kiln at nearly 500 degrees F for more than two days. The correct combination of temperature, time, and conditioning modifies the wood to protect itself, due to physical, chemical, and biological changes. Wood sugars change into a natural substance that cannot be digested by insects or even used as food by fungus or mold, dramatically increasing the wood's resistance to rot and decay. The process also gives the wood an attractive golden tone
Jim Reeb
Associate Professor
Forestry and Natural Resources
OSU Lincoln County Extension
Stivini61 - Posted - 02/03/2011: 06:08:19
Thanks also to Dan for his culinary contribution. I'm in favor of the caramelized exterior of a well-aged, marbled piece of beef before the joys of caramelized sugars in butterscotch.
RBuddy - Posted - 02/03/2011: 07:45:34
Most of the folks "baking" wood I know are those baking spruce for acoustic guitar tops. From what I remember, the thin guitar tops are baked for a couple hours at temperatures around 250 F. Those temperatures are pretty close to dry kiln temps for softwoods, also if I remember right. Spruce and many of the conifers can be fairly resinous and as explained to me the baking process "crystallizes" some of the resin and makes the tops stiffer. A lot of instrument builders do not want kiln dried lumber for their own set of reasons. My understanding of kiln drying is that in the process some (partial) aspect of the wood cell wall changes causing it to no longer be able to take on moisture from water vapor in the air the same way air dried lumber does. As a result, kiln dried lumber shrinks and swells slightly less than air dried as ambient relative humidity changes making it somewhat more stable.
Since some instrument builders don't want kiln dried material a lot of vendors aid dry instrument billets and let the end user "bake" if so desired.
I have not heard of instrument builders "baking" much hardwood but I'm sure it has been tried.
Baking spruce is a pretty hot topic on acoustic guitar sites and you can find more opinions on its effectiveness there than you ever wanted to read.
If you are into this topic you'd probably like to read page 27 of Taylor Guitars 2008 Wood and Steel publication. It is interesting. Link Below:
Beware, it is about a 6MB download if you have a slow Internet connection. I should mention that there was apparently a reference in the Taylor article referring to drying spruce at 200 Celsius that was retracted in 2009 and corrected to 200 Fahrenheit.
taylorguitars.com/woodandsteel..._2008.pdf
theonly1hardway - Posted - 02/03/2011: 08:37:41
Raf Morgan has a thread topic" gourd banjo-work in progress" that has a an explanation of how to do the baking process.
harrisonbanjos.com
Raf Morgan - Posted - 02/03/2011: 18:22:32
Thanks Dennis!
Well, if you´re interest, here it is...
Take a look at these example of small pieces of wood I´ve finished with this technique:
i592.photobucket.com/albums/tt...A0160.jpg
i592.photobucket.com/albums/tt...A0163.jpg
First, you need to chemically ebonize the wood. For this, you´ll need to let a piece of fine steel wool (not stainless steel wool, of course) rest on a partially closed container with vinegar ( I use red grape vinegar) and salt, for about a week, or until the wool dissolves completely. It will become a disgusting brown broth).
Then, take the wood pieces (finished with maximum 320 sand paper) you want to ebonize and submerge them on that liquid for about 24 hours. Then, take them of and let them dry for about 8 hours. They will become completely black, because the iron oxid will react with wood´s tanic acid.
It will work better in woods with high concentration of tanic acid ( works great with mahogany). My advice is to test it in scrap wood before applying it seriously. The penetration of the ebanization will depend on how porous and grainy the wood is as well.
Now, for the temperature treatment, take the pieces to the refrigerator and let them rest there for about 12 hours or more. The next step is to take those freezing pieces of wood and take them to a pre-heated oven ( about 250° Celsius) and let them cook for about 25 minutes.
Keep your eyes and nose at it. If it starts to smell like smoke, take them of immediately.
Results may very, of course. It depends on various factors.
That´s it!
Ps: I´m not sure about the effects of this treatment, but the old man who taught me about that said it was a very very old technique. Supposedly, it causes the sound to travel better trough the wood, somehow. Let me know if any of you decide to experiment with that, right?
Cheers,
Raf.![]()
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Edited by - Raf Morgan on 02/03/2011 18:29:36
Kurt Kemp - Posted - 02/04/2011: 04:39:48
Oh boy, I can see it coming. Someone is going to make a submerged, boiled, baked, ebonzied, carmalized, stream-bent, Butterscotch rim.
dickinnorwich - Posted - 02/04/2011: 08:02:42
quote:
Originally posted by Dan Pennington
Here's a guitar maker's take on baking spruce tops:
lenaweelutherie.info/page6/pag...age8.html
I prefer mine sprinkled with a little asiago cheese.
Dan:
I picked up on the following quote from the web site you offered.
"After baking and cool-down keep the top(s) weighted and flat for at least a week or until equilibrium is again achieved."
It strikes me that the notion of "equilibrium" is another way of saying that the (unsealed) wood is again returning to an ambient moisture content. If so, what's the point...especially if, in the process of heating, cellular structure has been damaged or perhaps destroyed? I'm just not getting the "value added" to this process.
Kurt Kemp - Posted - 02/04/2011: 08:38:29
what ever you decide to do Dick don't forget the butterscotch and asiago cheese.
dickinnorwich - Posted - 02/04/2011: 10:30:31
quote:
Originally posted by Kurt Kemp
what ever you decide to do Dick don't forget the butterscotch and asiago cheese.
You're killin' me, Kurt.
Dan Pennington - Posted - 02/04/2011: 11:33:09
Dick
I just did a fast review of a bunch of baked wood discussions on the guitar luthier forums and found that most of them talked about two results in the process. The first was of crystalizing the resins in the spruce top wood which is pretty much what happens in the aging process over 5 to 10 years.
The second is for moisture control during the top bracing process. If the ambient humidity is high when the top pieces are joined and the braces are glued on, the top is more likely to shrink and crack later when the guitar goes thru a dry spell, like a northern winter in a house without a humidifier. My second guitar did just that. I glued the box together in a damp basement in a humid summer in Michigan. The next winter, the top split at the center line just below the bridge. I've tried regluing it but it just doesn't hold. Someday, I'll plow a groove and put in a splint.
Banjo wood parts don't shrink as much as guitar tops do, but they do shrink some. You all know the result when your fret ends stick out in the middle of the winter.
Edited by - Dan Pennington on 02/04/2011 11:38:37
dickinnorwich - Posted - 02/04/2011: 11:41:35
quote:
Originally posted by Dan Pennington
Dick
I just did a fast review of a bunch of baked wood discussions on the guitar luthier forums and found that most of them talked about two results in the process. The first was of crystalizing the resins in the spruce top wood which is pretty much what happens in the aging process over 5 to 10 years.
The second is for moisture control during the top bracing process. If the ambient humidity is high when the top pieces are joined and the braces are glued on, the top is more likely to shrink and crack later when the guitar goes thru a dry spell, like a northern winter in a house without a humidifier. My second guitar did just that. I glued the box together in a damp basement in a humid summer in Michigan. The next winter, the top split at the center line just below the bridge. I've tried regluing it but it just doesn't hold. Someday, I'll plow a groove and put in a splint.
O.K., so as block rim builders (you and me), are we saying that we can accelerate the aging process by baking our blocks?
And, are we also saying that we REALLY believe, in a block rim format, that there is substantive acoustical value to this process? I mean, I'm willing to try anything. But I just can't recall anyone ever saying that one of my block rims would sound a lot better if I had baked the wood in the oven at 200 degrees.
This is starting to sound like that old Life cereal commercial where the two brothers get Mikey to try it.
Edited by - dickinnorwich on 02/04/2011 11:48:56
Kurt Kemp - Posted - 02/04/2011: 12:05:27
c'mon you guys. One of you has to do it. Now you bake right with Martha White.
dickinnorwich - Posted - 02/04/2011: 12:26:09
quote:
Originally posted by Kurt Kemp
c'mon you guys. One of you has to do it. Now you bake right with Martha White.
I told you, Kurt, you're killin' me.
O.K., so just suppose I was going to do this, I'm now working with blocks that are 1 3/4" X 1 3/4" X 5" long. Intuitively, I don't think they are going to curl from the heat but I'm also suspicious that 200 degrees for one hour will have the same internal cellular affect on a block of this dimension as it does on a guitar top.
Edited by - dickinnorwich on 02/04/2011 12:26:46
Dan Pennington - Posted - 02/04/2011: 13:10:11
None of my block rims are old enough to have benefitted from aging the way a 50 years old Martin has. So, I don't know if cooking one will make any difference. One thing I suspect is that after baking one of my block rims, I would be left with an oven full of curved dominoes after all the glue joints let go.
I don't plan on baking my guitar tops or my rim wood. Now. let's talk about something else, like submerged wood.
dickinnorwich - Posted - 02/04/2011: 13:53:05
quote:
Originally posted by Dan Pennington
None of my block rims are old enough to have benefitted from aging the way a 50 years old Martin has. So, I don't know if cooking one will make any difference. One thing I suspect is that after baking one of my block rims, I would be left with an oven full of curved dominoes after all the glue joints let go.
I don't plan on baking my guitar tops or my rim wood. Now. let's talk about something else, like submerged wood.
Too late, Dan.
I've got 16 raw blocks baking in the oven as we speak. "I'm going for the gold" as they say and I'll report back next week on the results of this new block rim experiment. It'll take me the usual day or two to get the rim glued up and then some time to get it cut on the lathe and set up. All of this, of course, assumes that I don't burn the house down in the process.
Note: My lovely wife, who takes great pride in my work, has gently suggested that due to the thickness of the blocks, I leave them in the oven to bake for two hours @ 200 degrees. This again raises the question about the thoroughness of the baking process as far as the thickness of wood is concerned. Does anyone have any good guidance on this?
rotten - Posted - 02/05/2011: 03:49:32
This has me thinking about putting some bridges in my toaster oven. As a first order for assessing the difference in sound, bridges seem like a good starting place.
RBuddy - Posted - 02/05/2011: 06:27:11
Dick
All I can say is that 2 hours was used for spruce tops ~1/8" thick and the idea was to "crystallize" resin or drive off other volatile organics from the resinous wood that would take years at normal temperatures. Thicker wood might take more bake time. Hard wood having much different characteristics I'm not sure there will be any effect other than bringing MC way down temporarily and making your blocks hot. But I love a good shop experiment as much as anybody and can't wait for the results. Might be a new slogan in it like, Hot Block Rims. Seems like when you coat the blocks with Titebond they will soak up the moisture again. DId you pre heat or put them in a cold oven?
Also if your wood was kiln dried its probably already backed. Maybe Twice Baked Rims could be the sales pitch.
Please keep us up to date on this one, and good luck!
Kurt Kemp - Posted - 02/05/2011: 07:14:15
I told my wife about this hair-brained idea and she said we were all already "fully baked" for hatching such a "half baked" idea. Then she went on to say that banjo players were weird.
After reading this thread I had no response... 
dickinnorwich - Posted - 02/05/2011: 07:24:38
quote:
Originally posted by RBuddy
Dick
All I can say is that 2 hours was used for spruce tops ~1/8" thick and the idea was to "crystallize" resin or drive off other volatile organics from the resinous wood that would take years at normal temperatures. Thicker wood might take more bake time. Hard wood having much different characteristics I'm not sure there will be any effect other than bringing MC way down temporarily and making your blocks hot. But I love a good shop experiment as much as anybody and can't wait for the results. Might be a new slogan in it like, Hot Block Rims. Seems like when you coat the blocks with Titebond they will soak up the moisture again. DId you pre heat or put them in a cold oven?
Also if your wood was kiln dried its probably already backed. Maybe Twice Baked Rims could be the sales pitch.
Please keep us up to date on this one, and good luck!
Brian:
I pre-heated to 250 and have let them "cook" for 2 hours but after a quick taste test, I'm not yet getting that distinctive carmel flavor that Kurt promised me.
Seriously, I think all I'm doing is drying out the wood so I'm going to boost the temperature...and stand by with a fire extinguisher.
dickinnorwich - Posted - 02/05/2011: 12:11:17
quote:
Originally posted by dickinnorwich
quote:
Originally posted by RBuddy
Dick
All I can say is that 2 hours was used for spruce tops ~1/8" thick and the idea was to "crystallize" resin or drive off other volatile organics from the resinous wood that would take years at normal temperatures. Thicker wood might take more bake time. Hard wood having much different characteristics I'm not sure there will be any effect other than bringing MC way down temporarily and making your blocks hot. But I love a good shop experiment as much as anybody and can't wait for the results. Might be a new slogan in it like, Hot Block Rims. Seems like when you coat the blocks with Titebond they will soak up the moisture again. DId you pre heat or put them in a cold oven?
Also if your wood was kiln dried its probably already backed. Maybe Twice Baked Rims could be the sales pitch.
Please keep us up to date on this one, and good luck!
Brian:
I pre-heated to 250 and have let them "cook" for 2 hours but after a quick taste test, I'm not yet getting that distinctive carmel flavor that Kurt promised me.
Seriously, I think all I'm doing is drying out the wood so I'm going to boost the temperature...and stand by with a fire extinguisher.
At 400 degrees for 2 hours, I finally succeeded in driving my wife out of the house with the smell. If it's not carmelized now, it's never going to be.
dickinnorwich - Posted - 02/05/2011: 13:36:58
quote:
Originally posted by dickinnorwich
quote:
Originally posted by dickinnorwich
quote:
Originally posted by RBuddy
Dick
All I can say is that 2 hours was used for spruce tops ~1/8" thick and the idea was to "crystallize" resin or drive off other volatile organics from the resinous wood that would take years at normal temperatures. Thicker wood might take more bake time. Hard wood having much different characteristics I'm not sure there will be any effect other than bringing MC way down temporarily and making your blocks hot. But I love a good shop experiment as much as anybody and can't wait for the results. Might be a new slogan in it like, Hot Block Rims. Seems like when you coat the blocks with Titebond they will soak up the moisture again. DId you pre heat or put them in a cold oven?
Also if your wood was kiln dried its probably already backed. Maybe Twice Baked Rims could be the sales pitch.
Please keep us up to date on this one, and good luck!
Brian:
I pre-heated to 250 and have let them "cook" for 2 hours but after a quick taste test, I'm not yet getting that distinctive caramel flavor that Kurt promised me.
Seriously, I think all I'm doing is drying out the wood so I'm going to boost the temperature...and stand by with a fire extinguisher.
At 400 degrees for 2 hours, I finally succeeded in driving my wife out of the house with the smell. If it's not caramelized now, it's never going to be.
Caramelized?? You tell me.
This represents 2 hours @ 400 degrees. I included a piece of unheated maple (top) and walnut (below) to show the color contrast before and after heating. Looking at the blocks sitting here, it is now almost impossible to distinguish between the maple and the walnut. I would also report that there is a pool of oily liquid in the bottom of the oven....which has not made my wife happy.
The next stop; after they've cooled, glue them up into a rough block for turning.
Edited by - dickinnorwich on 02/05/2011 13:40:17
Dave Telecaster - Posted - 02/05/2011: 15:39:30
I have some flooring that has been smoked its oak and gives the look of walnut, but it only goes a small distance into the wood, When i lived on a farm sometimes we would charcoal the fence posts to stop infestation ?
From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 02/05/2011: 16:40:17
Dick,
How long until you have indications of the results of your experiment and what tests will you give your new toasty to determine the effects the heating has had.
Ken
dickinnorwich - Posted - 02/06/2011: 08:28:44
quote:
Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom
Dick,
How long until you have indications of the results of your experiment and what tests will you give your new toasty to determine the effects the heating has had.
Ken
The rim is in glue up mode as we speak. I'll let it dry overnight and cut it tomorrow night on the lathe after I get home from the office. I have a jam Tuesday night so I'll take the new banjo for a test drive then and report back thereafter.
I noticed that when I was doing the final shaving of the blocks on the chop saw for the pre-assembly in dry mode that the heat had entirely penetrated the 1 1/4" block... so whatever is happening to the wood, the cellular character is the same all throughout the piece of wood. How any of this translates acoustically remains to be seen. What I can say, without fear of contradiction, is that the process of heating the wood should not be done inside the house because it has left a terrible burnt odor that has permeated all throughout the house.
Stivini61 - Posted - 02/06/2011: 17:46:36
THIS is why the hangout is so dang good! Thanks to Dick for trying this half-baked idea and for everyone else for goading and cheering him!
Can't wait to hear the results. Please post sound files. It would also be great to hear a discussion of how the baked wood responded to tools. An earlier poster reported that it was more brittle.
Steve
Edited by - Stivini61 on 02/06/2011 17:47:34
RBuddy - Posted - 02/06/2011: 18:30:13
Dick, we all owe you an enormous debt of gratitude for taking this on and I especially hope your wife forgives you. In all honesty though, and I hate to say this, but I hope the experiment is a total failure. Otherwise... otherwise you know, it will be repeated by banjo builders all over. I never thought I'd be going to the appliance mart for shop equipment, and I know I don't have room for an oven in my shop, and my wife endures enough of my antics already. But just in case - is your stove gas or electric???
sideways - Posted - 02/06/2011: 18:31:45
Has anyone built necks out of submerged wood? I've heard of bridges and rims, but not necks.
dickinnorwich - Posted - 02/07/2011: 05:19:01
quote:
Originally posted by RBuddy
Dick, we all owe you an enormous debt of gratitude for taking this on and I especially hope your wife forgives you. In all honesty though, and I hate to say this, but I hope the experiment is a total failure. Otherwise... otherwise you know, it will be repeated by banjo builders all over. I never thought I'd be going to the appliance mart for shop equipment, and I know I don't have room for an oven in my shop, and my wife endures enough of my antics already. But just in case - is your stove gas or electric???
Brian:
I'm way ahead of you. I can see exactly where this is headed if, God help us, this is even marginally successful. Mentally, I've been making plans to buy a separate oven which I would have to install in my garage. Seriously guys and gals, I'm not kidding around about this. You do NOT want to do this inside your house. The smell of burnt wood has permeated everything and of course, because it's seriously winter in New England, the house is buttoned up tight and we can't really air it out.
Waltj - Posted - 02/07/2011: 11:18:55
This is some crazy goings on here for sure. I was going to suggest someone should try to find some road killed skunks, squeeze the juice out of them and boil the wood in that before baking to see if that doesn't speed the aging process along. Then I thought that is just plain silly.....
I'm sorry.... got carried away
dickinnorwich - Posted - 02/07/2011: 11:23:50
quote:
Originally posted by Waltj
This is some crazy goings on here for sure. I was going to suggest someone should try to find some road killed skunks, squeeze the juice out of them and boil the wood in that before baking to see if that doesn't speed the aging process along. Then I thought that is just plain silly.....
I'm sorry.... got carried away
I'm on it, Walt.
Roadkill juice; roadkill juice; roadkill juice.....
bearface - Posted - 02/08/2011: 19:03:49
here is a turkey call made of treated maple
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