Jody Hughes - Posted - 08/21/2010:  20:27:09

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This evening I was at a Jam, someone said they had found the top 100 BHO soundfiles on itunes and one of them sounded like myself. I said I wasn't aware of this.

This would be fine and dandy but noone is even given credit for their work on this I tunes file, with a few exceptions....no author or performing artists are listed in the said soundfile....if you'd like to see this, all one has to do is go on Itunes and search top 100 BHO members.

This is a REALLY QUESTIONABLE practice. I do not know who is responsible for this, but it would have been nice if I was at least notified of said action and given SOME sort of credit for my work. I realize I uploaded soundfiles to this website, but I think any reasonable person wouldn't redistribute others work for the promotion of their own website without notifying them....or at the very least giving them credit.

This isn't the first time I've seen these sort of practices attached to this websites name. I've seen uploaded videos into the video section of this website by the owner and other members that didn't give credit to the person performing in the video. REALLY, what kind of people do this sort of thing?

Yet another reason to make me question WHAT I'm still doing on this website......can we say bad business practices?

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Edited by - Jody Hughes on 08/21/2010 20:33:18

Jody Hughes - Posted - 08/21/2010:  20:31:25

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ALSO, let us mention the fact that a great deal of these soundfiles are Copyrighted and probably no permission was obtained for that either.

While i'm at it and in the mood....It's also like taking everyones avatar picture and including them in some Earl Scruggs mural without even asking them. No, I wasn't included in that little "project" but I know more than a few members that wouldn't have liked that.

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Edited by - Jody Hughes on 08/21/2010 20:40:35

scruss - Posted - 08/21/2010:  20:44:00

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I think you're probably referring to the Banjo Hangout Newest 100 Songs: itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/ba...348399672 — or one of the other feeds. No-one's doing anything sleazy here — BHO publishes an RSS feed of the various uploads, and iTunes (which contains a feed aggregator) has just picked up on it. They're not hosting the files, they're not charging for the content, nor are they claiming it's theirs.

Jody Hughes - Posted - 08/21/2010:  20:46:45

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quote:

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Originally posted by scruss

I think you're probably referring to the Banjo Hangout Newest 100 Songs: itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/ba...348399672 — or one of the other feeds. No-one's doing anything sleazy here — BHO publishes an RSS feed of the various uploads, and iTunes (which contains a feed aggregator) has just picked up on it. They're not hosting the files, they're not charging for the content, nor are they claiming it's theirs.

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Oh, so it's okay to redistribute the work of others without giving them credit or notifying them?...not to mention uploading videos of other people playing without giving them credit on this website.
you make it sound like Itunes went fishing for the BHO soundfiles. It's a promotional tool for this website, with it's name attached to it. I really don't think a guy at "Itunes" sitting behind a desk is responsible for uploading that.

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Edited by - Jody Hughes on 08/21/2010 20:57:36

D.W. - Posted - 08/21/2010:  20:49:14

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I don't know if this would help with your specific situation, but you might want to mark your BHO sound files as "Do Not Allow Download". This might remove your material from the podcast download. And if it doesn't then it might be something to bring up in the website problems forum.

The search parameters I used to find the Banjo Hangout Podcasts were : 100 Banjo Hangout.

One suggestion with regards to Performer Attribution would be to make sure that the first words in your Song description (as posted in your music section on your BHO homepage) are: Banjo Performance by Your Name. Since it seems like the first few lines of the song description on the BHO Itunes podcast are lifted from what people write in their own descriptions where they posted the songs.

The Earl Scruggs Avatar Mural was something that Eric Schlange did with everyone's avatar photo. (link: banjohangout.org/myhangout/pho...albumid=0 )

I'd be curious as to where on I-tunes you're finding that.

Jody Hughes - Posted - 08/21/2010:  20:56:13

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quote:

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Originally posted by D.W.

I don't know if this would help with your specific situation, but you might want to mark your BHO sound files as "Do Not Allow Download". This might remove your material from the podcast download. And if it doesn't then it might be something to bring up in the website problems forum.

The search parameters I used to find the Banjo Hangout Podcasts were : 100 Banjo Hangout.

One suggestion with regards to Performer Attribution would be to make sure that the first words in your Song description (as posted in your music section on your BHO homepage) are: Banjo Performance by Your Name. Since it seems like the first few lines of the song description on the BHO Itunes podcast are lifted from what people write in their own descriptions where they posted the songs.

The Earl Scruggs Avatar Mural was something that Eric Schlange did with everyone's avatar photo. (link: banjohangout.org/myhangout/pho...albumid=0 )

I'd be curious as to where on I-tunes you're finding that.

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Yes, I understand what they use as the Song Description now...but I wasn't aware of it, nor notified they were going to be doing this so I didn't know to change it. I tried changing it just now and made it non-downloadable but didnt see any changes on Itunes.
Yes, I saw the mural on this website, it's not on itunes......yet it's the same problem...taking peoples soundfiles, pics, etc, and doing whatever one pleases with them. Perhaps this is the new way of the net, that one shouldn't post stuff that one doesn't want other people using ad nauseum. Still, I question the nature of it.
I really wouldn't have a problem with it if 1)I was notified 2)I was given credit
Really simple

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Edited by - Jody Hughes on 08/21/2010 20:59:30

D.W. - Posted - 08/21/2010:  20:59:55

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I would also like to add further information as a result of my experimentation with the Itune's software and the BHO top 100 list (there are at least 6 BHO podcasts)...

When the song is playing in the I-tunes player.... in the progress bar in the top center section of the i-tunes player... where it lists the title of the song that is playing... it also lists the User-name of the BHO member that posted the song.

Which is how I know that John Henry, #5 of the Top 100 Banjo Hangout Bluegrass songs was uploaded by Goldstarman. And while he's probably also the banjo player in the song... it only grabs his username, which is not always a real name.

D.W. - Posted - 08/21/2010:  21:32:37

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quote:

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Originally posted by Banjocoltrane



Yes, I understand what they use as the Song Description now...but I wasn't aware of it, nor notified they were going to be doing this so I didn't know to change it. I tried changing it just now and made it non-downloadable but didnt see any changes on Itunes.

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I don't know how the I-tunes software RSS podcast stuff really works. So I'm going to guess... It will probably take a while before your material drops off the feed. There is probably a "buffer" (like a Cache) where stuff exists until another "snapshot" is taken. The "Don't allow download" should mean just that. But it might take whatever amount of time exists between RSS updates.

quote:

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Originally posted by Banjocoltrane

[quote]

Yes, I saw the mural on this website, it's not on itunes......yet it's the same problem...taking peoples soundfiles, pics, etc, and doing whatever one pleases with them. Perhaps this is the new way of the net, that one shouldn't post stuff that one doesn't want other people using ad nauseum. Still, I question the nature of it.

I really wouldn't have a problem with it if 1)I was notified 2)I was given credit

Really simple

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Seeing as how I do not own the rights to the photo I'm using as my Avatar- I don't really have any problem with the re-use in the Mosaic photo. (Fwiw- the people who made my banjo probably could claim ownership of the photo.. but since it plugs their product in a round about way I don't think they'd take issue with it).

But you are correct in your assessment "Perhaps this is the new way of the net, that one shouldn't post stuff that one doesn't want other people using ad nauseum.". It's the nature of the internet that whatever you post on it is Public for the world and whomever can figure out how to use it... which is why I've been very careful about what I put online and why you will never see a photo of me online- anywhere.

Regards,
D.W.

Tommy5 - Posted - 08/21/2010:  22:34:47

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Exactly anything posted on the internet can be downloaded and used without your permission, you have no expectation of privicy after posting on a public internet site, if someone takes your copyrighted material try to sell it that is one thing, actually i would want as many people as possible to hear my banjo files giving itunes access would be a good thing.

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Edited by - Tommy5 on 08/21/2010 22:35:17

madkelt2004 - Posted - 08/22/2010:  03:00:14

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... which is why I've been very careful about what I put online and why you will never see a photo of me online- anywhere.

Regards,
D.W.

[/quote]

Never say never. You'd be surprised what makes it into cyber-space. You may not have posted a picture of yourself, but someone has.

tom elder - Posted - 08/22/2010:  04:32:34

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For years i would not let people tape me for fear my personal style would get stolen,then i realized i was simply going to take it to my grave,i decided to do a 180 and bho was the perfect place.

The KIDD - Posted - 08/22/2010:  04:37:34

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Yeah, it woulda been nice to have been reckonized for our tunes but I guess now we can advertise on our all websites FB , MS,RN etc. that we're personally featured on I tunes.I always have between4-10 tunes on the Top 100 all time hits and the BG Top at any given time. I MADE IT !!NEW YORK NEW YORK YOUR MY KINDA TOWN!

banjer5 - Posted - 08/22/2010:  04:50:35

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Yep gang, there just aint no privacy in this here world anymore. I guess most of us can be found by doing a Google search. Looks like OUR little corner of the world just went WORLDWIDE.

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Edited by - banjer5 on 08/22/2010 04:51:54

scruss - Posted - 08/22/2010:  05:16:04

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quote:

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Originally posted by Banjocoltrane


Oh, so it's okay to redistribute the work of others without giving them credit or notifying them?

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No, I didn't. Uploading something to a public website basically means relinquishing control of it. If you want it to be properly attributed to you, write the description carefully and add all the tags you can to the mp3. Notifying for a change of use would be more difficult - and in a way, we were notified when Eric posted something about their now being RSS feeds of MP3 audio.

I'm a little surprised not to see the myspace-style licensing terms when you upload anything, but what BHO seems to be doing seems to be above board. At least it's not like dodgy sites such as beemp3.com, who used to leach about 90% of my domain's bandwidth by deep linking to my live music mp3s.

quote:

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you make it sound like Itunes went fishing for the BHO soundfiles.

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Nope. No fishing. It's an RSS feed; Really Simple Syndication. It's designed to get your stuff out there. Only you can choose to control your stuff by not uploading it.

Old Man - Posted - 08/22/2010:  05:49:40

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If you don't want it out there ,Don't put it out there .In this day and time people will use it.

tom elder - Posted - 08/22/2010:  06:04:08

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I am not much on the workings of thew.w.w.but this thread muddied the water even more.banjohangout.org/topic/184417

PCBear - Posted - 08/22/2010:  06:15:05

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You also might want to really look at the "Terms and Conditions" when you post. I'll bet that if you do you would probably never post anything anywhere again. Usually they let you know you are basically giving the site the right to do anything.

Bayou Talker - Posted - 08/22/2010:  06:50:17

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Many of the online photo websites like Picassa, Fotobucket, etc have policies whereas if you upload anything to them you are giving them the right to use it in any manner. Of course it is hidden in that long winded legaleaze that nobody reads before they click to acknowledge it. That is why I never use online storage sites.

quote:

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Originally posted by PCBear

You also might want to really look at the "Terms and Conditions" when you post. I'll bet that if you do you would probably never post anything anywhere again. Usually they let you know you are basically giving the site the right to do anything.

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schlange - Posted - 08/22/2010:  07:40:10

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Wow--a lot of accusations flying around here. Glad I was alerted to this thread by the mods.

I actually DO pass the screen name and homepage link of the song poster in the podcast (rss) feed. So don't say I don't give credit. Now, when and where iTunes chooses to display that is another issue! But it's there. You can view the actual data of the RSS feed that powers the Top 100 playlist here: banjohangout.org/rss/Top.xml

You can mark your MP3s as non-downloadable, which will make it so iTunes folks can't download it.

Overall, I would say this: If you don't want your songs played on the Internet, don't post them on the Internet! I submitted the podcasts to iTunes, because I wanted to get the music out beyond our little community. I'm the one footing the bill for the downloads and PRO licenses, for what is probably a negligable business benefit. But getting good banjo tunes out to the iTunes world--that's a beautiful thing.

As for the avatar graphic--that was just a fun little thing that I threw together that a LOT of people enjoyed (see the thread on that). Lighten up and live a little, I say.

These aren't issues of privacy--it's not like iTunes has your private information, or your avatar in an Earl mosaic somehow opens your private life up to the world. It IS an issue of your MP3 or avatar showing up where you didn't expect it. Perhaps I could have informed you better of this--but honestly, with this being a mostly public website, most of the content you post is available in 50 other places that I don't know about, anyway. That's the nature of a public website.

chuckles50 - Posted - 08/22/2010:  08:00:36

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I don't play well enough to be included in the top 100 tunes. I wish I did! And then maybe someday, my performance will be found on Itunes. That'll be the day! I guess for the professional players here on BHO, there very well may be some copyright infringement if the tunes uploaded are original and they receive no credit. But I'm sure they are well aware of the copyright laws and rules of engagement with regards to uploading original material onto the WWW. But for the rest of us, don't worry, be happy

tom elder - Posted - 08/22/2010:  08:15:48

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I loved the avatar mosaic even tho i missed the boat,send me anywhere you want,i can always holler''thats me''

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Edited by - tom elder on 08/22/2010 08:19:10

The Old Timer - Posted - 08/22/2010:  08:33:15

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This has been an interesting thread, I don't put anything on BHO that I would worry about where it goes, but it sure makes me think twice about putting stuff on Facebook!!!!

Deaf David - Posted - 08/22/2010:  09:46:39

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I have seen pictures of me pop up on Facebook that I haven' seen in 30 years. I also know people who do not and will not use a computer at all--out of principle. Their pictures and info are all over the internet.

Welcome to the Brave New World. The old rules just do not apply anymore. I talk with my students at the college and they just have a completely different notion of privacy than we did (I'm assuming we're all old farts here) and they also assume that anything they find on the internet is free to use any way they want. (Which is why I still flunk a lot of them for cutting and pasting their research papers!)

I don't like it one little bit, but there it is.

schlange - Posted - 08/22/2010:  10:18:15

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A couple other things to note...

Rss files for audio are only rewritten once a day, so if you make a change, don't expect it to take immediate effect. iTunes would then have to load the new file as well, which isn't an immediate thing. If you mark a file as not downloadable that immediately stops downloads, though.

schlange - Posted - 08/22/2010:  10:20:52

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Also--we only show the username of the poster, not their first and last name--because that's what we do across the site to maintain some semblence of privacy for those who care about it. You can change your username to your full name if you want...

Jody Hughes - Posted - 08/22/2010:  10:30:38

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quote:

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Originally posted by schlange

Wow--a lot of accusations flying around here. Glad I was alerted to this thread by the mods.

I actually DO pass the screen name and homepage link of the song poster in the podcast (rss) feed. So don't say I don't give credit. Now, when and where iTunes chooses to display that is another issue! But it's there. You can view the actual data of the RSS feed that powers the Top 100 playlist here: banjohangout.org/rss/Top.xml

You can mark your MP3s as non-downloadable, which will make it so iTunes folks can't download it.

Overall, I would say this: If you don't want your songs played on the Internet, don't post them on the Internet! I submitted the podcasts to iTunes, because I wanted to get the music out beyond our little community. I'm the one footing the bill for the downloads and PRO licenses, for what is probably a negligable business benefit. But getting good banjo tunes out to the iTunes world--that's a beautiful thing.


These aren't issues of privacy--it's not like iTunes has your private information, or your avatar in an Earl mosaic somehow opens your private life up to the world. It IS an issue of your MP3 or avatar showing up where you didn't expect it. Perhaps I could have informed you better of this--but honestly, with this being a mostly public website, most of the content you post is available in 50 other places that I don't know about, anyway. That's the nature of a public website.

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These aren't accusations. These are facts.
1)I wasn't notified.

2)Giving out my username isn't giving me credit for my work. If I'm some random person searching Itunes that isn't a member of BHO and saw that
fivestringpick was in description, I still don't know who that person is.

3)I didn't ask you to use my soundfiles and put them on Itunes so I dont care if "you are footing the bill". You are using it to promote your website so you SHOULD be "footing the bill." I should be sending YOU a bill for using my work without my permission to promote your website.

4)I've seen videos of other peoples playing uploaded to this website and not one ounce of credit was given as to who was in the video...so I just think it's the nature of the business on this website.

Furthermore, posting songs on the internet on MY homepage is NOT the same as giving you permission to use it for your own promotion and not give me any credit.
Simply, putting the persons actual name would have been very EASY to do, but something you didnt do. Notifying me and everyone else would have been easy to do as well. If I was notified I could have went in and made the changes I needed to.

"If you don't want your songs played on the Internet, don't post them on the Internet"!
1)Once again, posting songs on MY HOMEPAGE is not the same as telling you and everyone else to do what you want to with them. Posting them on my homepage is for a certain audience. That's like saying if you don't want your picture photoshopped and reposted on the internet then don't post your pic on your avatar. I think common courtesy should apply here.
2)Why are you screaming?....im not :)

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Edited by - Jody Hughes on 08/22/2010 10:32:30

Jody Hughes - Posted - 08/22/2010:  10:34:12

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quote:

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Originally posted by schlange
I actually DO pass the screen name and homepage link of the song poster in the podcast (rss) feed. So don't say I don't give credit. Now, when and where iTunes chooses to display that is another issue! But it's there. You can view the actual data of the RSS feed that powers the Top 100 playlist here: banjohangout.org/rss/Top.xml

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I just looked at that and I can't tell who did "Nashville Exit" or "Moneymusk" and some others....as no information is given. I'm guessing these posters would have provided more information had they known their work was going to be used on Itunes

dustinTN - Posted - 08/22/2010:  10:56:05

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Wow, no good deed goes unpunished. I assume that someone who has made thousands of posts to a FREE online PUBLIC forum might enjoy knowing that their tunes are helping promote the FREE PUBLIC forum that this person seem to spend a lot of time using. If you don't want to continue to use this FREE PUBLIC forum, lose your account and your soundfiles and your avatar cannot be used "unethically" any longer.

Of course, you will no longer have access to tens of thousands of banjo enthusiasts where you can promote your website, music, or your Skype lessons for FREE, but, by all means, go for it. You will no longer have access to a FREE classified service to buy or sell banjo-related items to tens of thousands of banjo enthusiasts, either. It seems that FREE is a wonderful concept when you're the beneficiary but the same minor generosity is not extended the other direction. Again, there is an easy remedy.... Quit using this FREE PUBLIC forum for your personal and professional interests if you are no longer happy with how it is run.

D.W. - Posted - 08/22/2010:  13:27:11

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quote:

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Originally posted by Banjocoltrane

quote:

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Originally posted by schlange
I actually DO pass the screen name and homepage link of the song poster in the podcast (rss) feed. So don't say I don't give credit. Now, when and where iTunes chooses to display that is another issue! But it's there. You can view the actual data of the RSS feed that powers the Top 100 playlist here: banjohangout.org/rss/Top.xml

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I just looked at that and I can't tell who did "Nashville Exit" or "Moneymusk" and some others....as no information is given. I'm guessing these posters would have provided more information had they known their work was going to be used on Itunes

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Using the I-tune's software you can tell that "Nashville Exit" is credited to Laurence Diehl. And using the I-tunes software you can tell that "MoneyMusk" is credited to Erynn Marshall

420picker - Posted - 08/22/2010:  13:58:00

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He who lives by the internet, dies by the internet.

dlc - Posted - 08/22/2010:  15:04:54

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LOVE that internet! It's the greatest access to FREE ADVERTISING the world has ever seen.

I upload my music to as many sites as I can. Same with short stories and some poetry. I found that one of my short stories had been read more than 2000 times before a particular literary website went offline. TWO THOUSAND TIMES! That means there are a couple thousand - give or take a few re-readers - out there who are potential buyers when they see my name on a novel. And all it cost me was letting them read that ONE (or more) short story for free - and there is an endless supply of short stories and novels I still have to write!

Same with my music. If someone likes my free uploads, they're more likely to BUY my music when it's available for sale. If they like my free songs, there are PLENTY MORE songs for sale where the free ones came from. And if you band members want to learn some of my tunes, GO FOR IT! You certainly have my blessing.

I've been all over this in the BMI/ASCAP threads. If someone likes my music, COOL! I hope they enjoy the free uploads! And if they're interested in more, I'll let them know where they can buy it.

I don't know about the amateurs, and I can't speak for any of the pros except myself, but to me it's NOT like we're talking about a finite amount of intellectual property here. Like I said, there's plenty more where that came from.

And like Tom Elder said, I can either let it go or take it to the grave with me - and I prefer to let it go (especially when letting a little of it go can make me some $$$ on the rest!).

But I certainly understand that not everyone will share that view.

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Edited by - dlc on 08/22/2010 15:06:45

Bayou Talker - Posted - 08/22/2010:  16:26:58

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My thoughts exactly.

quote:

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Originally posted by dustinTN

Wow, no good deed goes unpunished. I assume that someone who has made thousands of posts to a FREE online PUBLIC forum might enjoy knowing that their tunes are helping promote the FREE PUBLIC forum that this person seem to spend a lot of time using. If you don't want to continue to use this FREE PUBLIC forum, lose your account and your soundfiles and your avatar cannot be used "unethically" any longer.

Of course, you will no longer have access to tens of thousands of banjo enthusiasts where you can promote your website, music, or your Skype lessons for FREE, but, by all means, go for it. You will no longer have access to a FREE classified service to buy or sell banjo-related items to tens of thousands of banjo enthusiasts, either. It seems that FREE is a wonderful concept when you're the beneficiary but the same minor generosity is not extended the other direction. Again, there is an easy remedy.... Quit using this FREE PUBLIC forum for your personal and professional interests if you are no longer happy with how it is run.

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schlange - Posted - 08/22/2010:  20:21:28

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banjocoltrane--re: your comment "4)I've seen videos of other peoples playing uploaded to this website and not one ounce of credit was given as to who was in the video...so I just think it's the nature of the business on this website."

Those photos are uploaded to YouTube. If you have an issue with YouTube, take it up with them! All we're doing is embedding them on this site. We're letting members search YouTube videos and add them to the site, so people can easily find banjo videos. Since we don't host the videos (people don't upload videos to this site), it's not our job to worry about copyright and attribution. Furthermore, you're able to edit any video that's posted, so if you want to add to it, feel free. Do you really think it's practical for me to require anyone who posts a YouTube video to give credit to everyone who is playing in the video? Come on. YouTube doesn't require it, and I don't either. If that's reflects poorly on the "nature of the business on this website" than so be it.

You also said "I should be sending YOU a bill for using my work without my permission to promote your website." That's just silly. This site is based on member-generated content, so everything anyone posts is used to "promote the website" in that people search for that content, find it on the site, and that brings the site traffic. Your MP3s were posted on this site and available to billions of people before the podcast was ever on iTunes.

I'll say again--I'm giving members credit on iTunes and everywhere else. Why would I not? Again, look at the RSS feed to see it. It has your username, it has a link to your homepage--and moreover, if you want more credit given to you, you can always edit the song's descriptionand ID3 tag as others have suggested.

Jody Hughes - Posted - 08/22/2010:  20:43:34

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quote:

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Originally posted by dustinTN

Wow, no good deed goes unpunished. I assume that someone who has made thousands of posts to a FREE online PUBLIC forum might enjoy knowing that their tunes are helping promote the FREE PUBLIC forum that this person seem to spend a lot of time using. If you don't want to continue to use this FREE PUBLIC forum, lose your account and your soundfiles and your avatar cannot be used "unethically" any longer.

Of course, you will no longer have access to tens of thousands of banjo enthusiasts where you can promote your website, music, or your Skype lessons for FREE, but, by all means, go for it. You will no longer have access to a FREE classified service to buy or sell banjo-related items to tens of thousands of banjo enthusiasts, either. It seems that FREE is a wonderful concept when you're the beneficiary but the same minor generosity is not extended the other direction. Again, there is an easy remedy.... Quit using this FREE PUBLIC forum for your personal and professional interests if you are no longer happy with how it is run.

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That's nice and all but fails to address ANY of the questions posed. Once again:

1)No notification was given 2)No credit was given

So apparently, you agree that neither of these things would have been common courtesy? That its okay to redistribute the WORK of others for your own promotion without giving them credit...or at least NOTIFYING them of your intentions so that they can properly change the descriptions and credits on their files?
Your philosophy seems to be-Hey this place is "FREE" so it's okay to do whatever you want with the content published on it?

In addition, The problem is your forgetting to mention the fact that people like myself are what makes this website goes round. If people like myself didn't come here and answer peoples questions there would be no BHO.
It's really not important to me, but, since you are attempting this tactic, I would love to have a breakdown on the amount of time and advice I've given out on this website (how much I normally charge people for that) and then a tally of what I actually got back......other than the joy of knowing I helped someone. I'm not nearly as interested in doing that though, unless someone wants to throw how "free" this website is in my face like you are attempting to do.

How much FREE advice have I given this website?
I have given this website more than I will ever get from it....and quite frankly, my hourly rates aren't "cheap".
Furthermore, nothing you said has ANY bearing on this discussion because of the following:
I haven't gotten ONE skype student off this website, haven't sold ONE CD (because I don't have any), have had ZERO profits off ANYTHING I've posted on this website...neither have I ever bought or sold anything off this website.

In response to previous posts, The idea that ANYTHING used in the public is free to be redistributed is absolutely ridiculous. You can't just go tape anyones show and redistribute it. You can't go to an art gallery and make duplications and redistribute them either. The last I checked those soundfiles didn't create themselves, I made them, and almost 20 years in studying music made them. How would you like it if I took something you created and didn't give you any credit for it, didn't notify you, and used it for my own gain? You wouldn't. Even in literature and writing when someone is "quoted" you give them credit it for it.....only in the world of music do people have this ridiculous mindset.

Bart Veerman - Posted - 08/22/2010:  20:53:07

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quote:

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Originally posted by Banjocoltrane


1)No notification was given 2)No credit was given

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This would indeed have been the right thing to do.

Bart.

Jody Hughes - Posted - 08/22/2010:  20:55:47

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quote:

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Originally posted by Bart Veerman

quote:

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Originally posted by Banjocoltrane


1)No notification was given 2)No credit was given

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This would indeed have been the right thing to do.

Bart.

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THANK YOU Bart. I wasn't exactly asking for a Whole lot.

Turbo - Posted - 08/22/2010:  21:17:52

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I have to agree, notification would've been good protocol. It's unsettling, especially for those who make a living w/ music, to see/hear about your tunes being somewhere you didn't realize. People are always trying to get something free from us; a performance, tunes, etc.

I would have a huge problem if there was a profit being made. Being that's not the case because they're free, it still would've been nice to hear about it beforehand.

schlange - Posted - 08/22/2010:  21:17:52

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Jody: I suppose the point of disagreement is over whether proper credit and notification were given.

I believe I've properly credited people for their work (see previous posts--credit has always been given, so please stop saying it hasn't been). And I don't think any "notification" is necessary given that it's obvious from using the site that music is available for the public to listen to via the jukebox, that people can download the files (unless you've turned that option off), and that people can subscribe to playlists via RSS (which is all that iTunes is doing). That's all been on the site from when we first started doing allowing MP3 uploads.

I suppose I could spell that out for people when they upload an MP3. Is that what you're wanting?

Jody Hughes - Posted - 08/22/2010:  21:22:12

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quote:

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Originally posted by schlange
Those photos are uploaded to YouTube. If you have an issue with YouTube, take it up with them! All we're doing is embedding them on this site. We're letting members search YouTube videos and add them to the site, so people can easily find banjo videos. Since we don't host the videos (people don't upload videos to this site), it's not our job to worry about copyright and attribution. Furthermore, you're able to edit any video that's posted, so if you want to add to it, feel free. Do you really think it's practical for me to require anyone who posts a YouTube video to give credit to everyone who is playing in the video? Come on. YouTube doesn't require it, and I don't either. If that's reflects poorly on the "nature of the business on this website" than so be it.

You also said "I should be sending YOU a bill for using my work without my permission to promote your website." That's just silly. This site is based on member-generated content, so everything anyone posts is used to "promote the website" in that people search for that content, find it on the site, and that brings the site traffic. Your MP3s were posted on this site and available to billions of people before the podcast was ever on iTunes.

I'll say again--I'm giving members credit on iTunes and everywhere else. Why would I not? Again, look at the RSS feed to see it. It has your username, it has a link to your homepage--and moreover, if you want more credit given to you, you can always edit the song's descriptionand ID3 tag as others have suggested.

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On youtube there was a video posted by someone I know, it has their name on the video description on youtube. When it was archived on this website it had someone elses name listed as the person that added it...with no credit given to the performer. It would seem if you are going to allow ANYONE to archive videos to this website there OUGHT to be a place where performer in the video is listed, especially if that performer did so on his youtube channel and you didn't even get permission to repost it. If the performer lists himself on his youtube channel and it doesn't get listed on here, I think the person who posted the video is the person it should be "taken up" with, not youtube. Why? because the youtube description DOES say who is playing in it. There is no issue with the youtube video, only on here is the performer not listed.

If that is not an option that I'd really like to know WHY even allow archiving of videos on here. What exactly is the point? No, spreading all the wonderful banjo "joy" is not the answer I'm looking for here.
I can just go to youtube and search for banjo videos a lot easier than I can find them on here. I fail to see the advantages of logging individuals videos on this website WITHOUT THEIR PERMISSION and WITHOUT CREDIT are??? Why not just let them exist on youtube? I'm guessing it probably has much to do with links, website hits/promotion, internet wizardry, etc.

Yes Eric, I'm NOW aware that I can edit my description. However, how long has it been on Itunes without my name? If I hadn't ran into some random guy at a Jam session I STILL wouldn't know it was on there. If you are gonna take peoples soundfiles and repost them on Itunes or anywhere else they should at least be notified. I noticed quite a few didn't have any information given.

Asking for money for my soundfiles to be posted anywhere other than my homepage is not "silly." Not any more silly than taking peoples work without notifying them or giving them credit and redistributing it in attempts to promote your website.
I am the one that uploaded MY soundfiles and work to my homepage. As it is now, there is no indication when one uploads a soundfile to their homepage that it can and will be used elsewhere to promote this website...on places like ITunes, etc.

I'll give you an easy example, a friend of mine is a photographer. They create photos and every time that photo is used in a different magazine (wherever), guess what, they have to call and ask permission.
It does not get published wherever without them being notified. Granted, they don't have to "pay" each time it's duplicated, but they do NOTIFY and give CREDIT every time.
Those photos are published in magazines that the PUBLIC reads...whether the public sees something has no bearing on whether it's right or not to redistribute the work without courtesy. That is not what determines it.

schlange - Posted - 08/22/2010:  21:34:03

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Re: YouTube--when you post a video there, you can allow or disallow embedding. If you allow embedding (which is done by default) the video can be embedded on any site. Now here's the important part: an embedded YouTube video has no related information around it... just the video. So whoever posted the YouTube video and allowed embedding has basically given permission for any site on the web to embed it (which is all we're doing here) without any of the related video info in it.

I do allow people to post "meta info" about a video--like genre, category, a title and description (which are automatically pulled from YouTube, BTW). And it's nice when that info is as thorough as possible. But that isn't always the case, and I'm not about to start policing videos to make sure it is.

Whether or not archiving videos on this site is advantageous or not isn't really something you need to worry about--suffice it to say I built this feature because I knew people would find it useful, and they have.

dmiller - Posted - 08/22/2010:  21:49:34

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Not to change the subject or anything, but why can't youtube videos be embedded here on the BHO?
A different site I'm on allows the poster to change post options so that videos embed successfully.
One can change it from HTML off, to HTML On - Auto Linebreak Mode, and the videos show up.
Not complaining or anything. Just curious.

schlange - Posted - 08/22/2010:  21:54:26

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dmiller--YouTube videos can be embedded using the "Add Attachments" link when posting.

schlange - Posted - 08/22/2010:  21:55:06

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quote:

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Originally posted by Banjocoltrane
Yes Eric, I'm NOW aware that I can edit my description. However, how long has it been on Itunes without my name? If I hadn't ran into some random guy at a Jam session I STILL wouldn't know it was on there. If you are gonna take peoples soundfiles and repost them on Itunes or anywhere else they should at least be notified. I noticed quite a few didn't have any information given.

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Everyone’s songs on iTunes have ALWAYS had their usernames associated with them. Just go to “Get Info” on any of the songs in iTunes and you’ll see it. Just to be clear--are you not aware of this, or are you asking for more than this?

quote:

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Originally posted by Banjocoltrane
Asking for money for my soundfiles to be posted anywhere other than my homepage is not "silly." Not any more silly than taking peoples work without notifying them or giving them credit and redistributing it in attempts to promote your website.
I am the one that uploaded MY soundfiles and work to my homepage. As it is now, there is no indication when one uploads a soundfile to their homepage that it can and will be used elsewhere to promote this website...on places like ITunes, etc.

I'll give you an easy example, a friend of mine is a photographer. They create photos and every time that photo is used in a different magazine (wherever), guess what, they have to call and ask permission.
It does not get published wherever without them being notified. Granted, they don't have to "pay" each time it's duplicated, but they do NOTIFY and give CREDIT every time.
Those photos are published in magazines that the PUBLIC reads...whether the public sees something has no bearing on whether it's right or not to redistribute the work without courtesy. That is not what determines it.

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It seems to me that you simply don’t fully understand how this website, iTunes, or RSS works, and you’re blaming me for that lack of understanding. (Please don’t take offense at this—I’m sure a lot of people don’t understand it! I’m just trying to be clear.)

Your photographer example is a good, one, IF it was analogous to posting a song on this site. But it’s not. Posting a song on this site is more like uploading a photo to a public album on Flickr—anyone can see it, download it, embed it on their website, etc. It should always have some attribution/link back to the original poster’s page, but it can be embedded on a million sites in a million different ways—all because it was posted on Flickr.

I’m not “taking” anyone’s work, nor am I redistributing it. (Actually, I’m not even sure if the word “redistributing” makes sense in this context, since by definition any listening of MP3s is a “distribution.”) Your MP3s are available in the same way they’ve always been –through the Hangout server, via direct download or streamed through the jukebox.

dmiller - Posted - 08/22/2010:  23:38:50

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quote:

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Originally posted by schlange

dmiller--YouTube videos can be embedded using the "Add Attachments" link when posting.

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Thanks!

madkelt2004 - Posted - 08/23/2010:  04:03:15

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This thread has degenerated into what's known around here as a "pissing contest", one disgruntled individual flogging a dead horse.

kdstag - Posted - 08/23/2010:  06:44:12

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Yes. Eric should notify everyone here who posts MP3's on a public website that these MP3's may be accessed by other people using the internet.

I am sure we will be able to survive without all this FREE advice. You are an incredible banjo player, but.... get over yourself.

chickenpickin - Posted - 08/23/2010:  07:00:09

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Someone isn't getting enough attention, evidently ....uh....I mean credit.

frailin - Posted - 08/23/2010:  07:08:06

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Eric

1 - Thank you for your tireless planning, effort, investment-in, ambassadorship and support-of so many independent, niche music communities. Your work has now connected:

- 50,000 banjo players
- 7,700 fiddle players
- 357 bass players
- 93 drum players,
- 3,300 flat pick guitar players and
- 2,900 resonator guitar players

That's almost 65,000 individuals associated with some form of music. And that's just the ones that chose to be members (many more read).

2 - These global resources would not have been possible without the internet and without your choice to be the "facilitator" - indeed a "trailblazer" - for such an effort.

3 - I have worked with you one-on-one through the design, launch and maintenance of Autism Hangout... yet another community of 2,000 - 4,000 + people (a day) you're positively affecting through your skills and ability to "connect" via the web.

4 - Prior to that, I have been a member at BHO - and had dealings with you - for going on 4 years.

During that time and through all those experiences I have NEVER ONCE felt you dealing in anything less than an honorable and forthright manner. You have given me straight answers to all my questions and the benefit of the doubt when not asked for. You also provide a fair service for a fair cost... even though all the music communities are in essence "free."

5 - When expanding the scope of your website's capabilities - which you do frequently- clearly there are no books, no directions, no rules or no explanations for you to follow beyond your own judgement and internal values. But you venture into uncharted territory better than almost any one I know. Where no path exists, I have witnessed your ethics into determining a right and a possible wrong direction. This judgement guides you. And you've consistently been open to discussion. As a strong fellow Christian, I've learned to trust your judgement. I found it to be consistently fair and sound. In fact, your ethics are beyond reproach. In the unlikely event something happened that could possibly be viewed as questionable, I have NO DOUBT you would immediately correct or amend to what is "right."

I could not endorse a web service or an individual with higher recognition and praise for integrity than you and Bitsculptor. And for that I say "thank you, Eric."

Anyone that states anything different clearly does not know you and has clearly not worked with you.

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Edited by - frailin on 08/25/2010 19:23:50

dustinTN - Posted - 08/23/2010:  07:09:37

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quote:

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Originally posted by Banjocoltrane

quote:

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Originally posted by dustinTN

Wow, no good deed goes unpunished. I assume that someone who has made thousands of posts to a FREE online PUBLIC forum might enjoy knowing that their tunes are helping promote the FREE PUBLIC forum that this person seem to spend a lot of time using. If you don't want to continue to use this FREE PUBLIC forum, lose your account and your soundfiles and your avatar cannot be used "unethically" any longer.

Of course, you will no longer have access to tens of thousands of banjo enthusiasts where you can promote your website, music, or your Skype lessons for FREE, but, by all means, go for it. You will no longer have access to a FREE classified service to buy or sell banjo-related items to tens of thousands of banjo enthusiasts, either. It seems that FREE is a wonderful concept when you're the beneficiary but the same minor generosity is not extended the other direction. Again, there is an easy remedy.... Quit using this FREE PUBLIC forum for your personal and professional interests if you are no longer happy with how it is run.

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In addition, The problem is your forgetting to mention the fact that people like myself are what makes this website goes round. If people like myself didn't come here and answer peoples questions there would be no BHO.
It's really not important to me, but, since you are attempting this tactic, I would love to have a breakdown on the amount of time and advice I've given out on this website (how much I normally charge people for that) and then a tally of what I actually got back......other than the joy of knowing I helped someone. I'm not nearly as interested in doing that though, unless someone wants to throw how "free" this website is in my face like you are attempting to do.

How much FREE advice have I given this website?
I have given this website more than I will ever get from it....and quite frankly, my hourly rates aren't "cheap".
Furthermore, nothing you said has ANY bearing on this discussion because of the following:
I haven't gotten ONE skype student off this website, haven't sold ONE CD (because I don't have any), have had ZERO profits off ANYTHING I've posted on this website...neither have I ever bought or sold anything off this website.

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Again, if you're getting such a raw deal here - always giving away your profound wisdom and receiving so little in return - you always have the option of rescinding your membership. Especially given that you question the ethics of the site owner and chose a public lambasting to vent said questions.

And since you bring up how much money you haven't made using this free forum, putting things in terms of real dollars, then please tell me how much money was lost by having one of your songs available on iTunes? How would you quantify your damages? Enough that you chose to publicly question someone's character and motivation, apparently.

It seems to me you had a legitimate concern/question (which has since been resolved and clarified) and chose to air it in an unnecessarily hostile manner.

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Edited by - dustinTN on 08/23/2010 07:35:06