Edthebanjo - Posted - 03/15/2021:  07:26:12

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Originally posted by phb

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Originally posted by Edthebanjo

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Originally posted by nakigreengrass

Here Ed.....It's pretty grim....particularly when clicking the rate icon ( crimes per 100,000 )

ojjdp.gov/ojstatbb/crime/ucr.a...rdoData=rquote:

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Ah but that's per 100k people in a group. That doesn't account for population differences. I mean, Jan implied that 13% of people were committing 80% of violent crimes. What these statistics show is that Black people commit violent offences at a 4x higher rate than white people. Those are different statistics.

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What you need to look at is crimes per 100k people in a certain income group and compare those across ethnicities.

 

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Yeah controlling for income group would be one step in the right direction. But there are so many other factors to control for. Income group, whether they grew up in a 2 parent household, quality of education, employment opportunities, location, family history of crime, drug misuse, religious affiliations, etc. Income group is only one of the factors which leads to criminal activity, and not even the most predominant by most metrics I've seen.

Edited by - Edthebanjo on 03/15/2021 07:26:27

jan dupree - Posted - 03/15/2021:  09:12:52

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Originally posted by Edthebanjo

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Originally posted by jan dupree

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Originally posted by Edthebanjo

But when you account for the fact that members of the black community are much more likely to be involved with crime, and come into contact with the police at a much higher rate than non-black citizens, it indicates that the problem is a lot deeper than simply police targeting members of one race.

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They also commit 80% of the violent crime in this country according to FBI Statistics.

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Can you give a link to that statistic please? That's a lot higher than I've read before - I've heard 50% as an upper estimate.

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According to FBI Stats, the violent Crime Rate is 6 times higher for Blacks than Whites. Rape is not included in these stats. But Analysts say that when it is, the percentage for Blacks rises significantly. The wiki link for this info would not post. Blacks rob Whites 12 times more often than Whites rob Blacks. And one interesting fact is that, White on Black rapes is almost so non-existent, to the point that it cannot be calculated. 

Edited by - jan dupree on 03/15/2021 09:22:40

Ron C - Posted - 03/15/2021:  10:37:29

I've stated this before and choose to present it again. There is a significant problem of violent crime (and crime, in general) in the USA.

The focus on police behavior takes our attention away from that bigger problem. Police behavior and its discussion are highly visible and amenable to simple slogans, short text on protest signs, and bumper stickers. The larger problem is socio-economic and does not lend itself to simple statements. As Edthebanjo states correctly: "Income group... (predominance of single - my addition) parent households, quality of education, employment opportunities, location, family history of crime, drug misuse, religious affiliations, etc." all play a role. The mix of factors makes for a very complex issue that needs in-depth understanding and solutions. It requires studies, study based actions and those require resources - $$$$. There are a large number of books describing the problems (Culture of Poverty is one), but few offering well-founded solutions.

Gender and Ethnic issues do play a role in the analysis. Males commit the large proportion of violent crimes. One ethnic community commits a disproportionate percentage of homicides. In 2005, 6% of the US population, males of one ethnic group, committed nearly 50% of homicides. In 2018, that same 6% of the population committed 39% of the homicides (Black Victims of Violent Crime. 2007. Bureau of Justice Statistics Special Report; ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2...es/murder)

If the violent crimes and homicides of the 6% are subtracted from the National total, then the National rates of homicide do not look as extraordinary (not that any homicides are acceptable). To me, that result suggests that seriously attacking those complex issues listed above, with a focus on the communities that have such a high level of violent crime, will do more to mitigate the problem than spending our time and energy directed to the police as a whole. By all means, charge and prosecute police misbehavior, but focus on the biggest problems to get the largest benefits.

Banjonewguy - Posted - 03/15/2021:  10:43:39

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Originally posted by jan dupree

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Originally posted by Edthebanjo

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Originally posted by jan dupree

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Originally posted by Edthebanjo

But when you account for the fact that members of the black community are much more likely to be involved with crime, and come into contact with the police at a much higher rate than non-black citizens, it indicates that the problem is a lot deeper than simply police targeting members of one race.

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They also commit 80% of the violent crime in this country according to FBI Statistics.

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Can you give a link to that statistic please? That's a lot higher than I've read before - I've heard 50% as an upper estimate.

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According to FBI Stats, the violent Crime Rate is 6 times higher for Blacks than Whites. Rape is not included in these stats. But Analysts say that when it is, the percentage for Blacks rises significantly. The wiki link for this info would not post. Blacks rob Whites 12 times more often than Whites rob Blacks. And one interesting fact is that, White on Black rapes is almost so non-existent, to the point that it cannot be calculated. 

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According to the FBI, whites commit about 60% of all violent crime and blacks commit about 37%. Not sure what FBI crime stats you are using but it would help to use the correct ones. The rate per population does not equal percentage. And by the way, you even got the rate wrong. White people, being 60% of the population, account for 60% which is equal to their population size. Blacks are 13% of the population and account for 37% of violent crime which is only slightly more than three times their population. Three is half of six so your numbers are twice as high as reality.

jan dupree - Posted - 03/15/2021:  10:53:25

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Originally posted by Banjonewguy

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Originally posted by jan dupree

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Originally posted by Edthebanjo

But when you account for the fact that members of the black community are much more likely to be involved with crime, and come into contact with the police at a much higher rate than non-black citizens, it indicates that the problem is a lot deeper than simply police targeting members of one race.

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They also commit 80% of the violent crime in this country according to FBI Statistics.

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Ummm, no they don't, according to FBI statistics. Go look at the FBI UCR, table 43, for the past 10 years. Black people account for just over 50% of all murders, and have for the last 10 or so years, and average 36 - 38% of all violent crime while white people account for between 58 and 60% of all violent crime and about 46 - 48% of all murders. That doesn't dismiss the fact that while white people are represented in violent crime at a rate commensurate to their population black people are represented at three times their population, but presenting "facts" that were pulled from a dark smelly area of ones body doesn't do anything to further any conversation.

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They commit 80% of the violent crimes in this Country, and also many Blacks are being classified as "Hispanic" based on surname, Country of Origin, and English as a Second Language. Interracial Rape is virtually 100% Black on White. White Rape on Black is non-existant. Purse snatching, muggings, Home Invasion, Carjackings, Knockout Game Crimes, are perpetrated exclusively by Blacks. Interracial Violent Crime is committed almost exclusively by Blacks against Whites. Homocides and Assaults commited by Whites is usually Domestic related, or the Victim and Assailant are acquainted. Whites are not commiting violent Crimes against Blacks, and that is a fact you cannot dispute.

Ron C - Posted - 03/15/2021:  11:01:33

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Originally posted by Banjonewguy

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Originally posted by jan dupree

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Originally posted by Edthebanjo

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Originally posted by jan dupree

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Originally posted by Edthebanjo

But when you account for the fact that members of the black community are much more likely to be involved with crime, and come into contact with the police at a much higher rate than non-black citizens, it indicates that the problem is a lot deeper than simply police targeting members of one race.

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They also commit 80% of the violent crime in this country according to FBI Statistics.

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Can you give a link to that statistic please? That's a lot higher than I've read before - I've heard 50% as an upper estimate.

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According to FBI Stats, the violent Crime Rate is 6 times higher for Blacks than Whites. Rape is not included in these stats. But Analysts say that when it is, the percentage for Blacks rises significantly. The wiki link for this info would not post. Blacks rob Whites 12 times more often than Whites rob Blacks. And one interesting fact is that, White on Black rapes is almost so non-existent, to the point that it cannot be calculated. 

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According to the FBI, whites commit about 60% of all violent crime and blacks commit about 37%. Not sure what FBI crime stats you are using but it would help to use the correct ones. The rate per population does not equal percentage. And by the way, you even got the rate wrong. White people, being 60% of the population, account for 60% which is equal to their population size. Blacks are 13% of the population and account for 37% of violent crime which is only slightly more than three times their population. Three is half of six so your numbers are twice as high as reality.

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I think you have to take the numbers one step further. The same US Justice Dept/FBI Uniform Crime Reports show that the large majority of the violent crimes that are committed by blacks are by males. The males make up 6-7% of the population, not 13%. Also, one year of the Uniform Crime Reports has the 37% of violent crime number you state. The other reports from 1994 - 2019 show a range from 37% to 51%, with the median around 49%. So, whether the value is 3 or six times the value for the general population depends on whether you count male and female or just male perps. Either way, one group is responsible for a significantly disproportionate amount of violent crime. We shy away from even discussing these numbers (not here on the Hangout) because even stating them directly from the reports will result in accusations of racism. To me, if you can't talk about it, you can't define the problem and then can't solve it.

jan dupree - Posted - 03/15/2021:  11:01:40

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Originally posted by nakigreengrass

Here Ed.....It's pretty grim....particularly when clicking the rate icon ( crimes per 100,000 )

ojjdp.gov/ojstatbb/crime/ucr.a...rdoData=rquote:

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When you figure that many Black Offenders are being classified as "Hispanic' the rate is even higher. But some People will refuse to believe. Not only that but, about 70% of Blacks makeup the Prison System in some States. Even with a large percentage Incarcerated, they still manage to maintain those high numbers. 

Edited by - jan dupree on 03/15/2021 11:06:14

DC5 - Posted - 03/15/2021:  11:04:55

Good thing you're talking about violent crime and race and not healthcare.

Owen - Posted - 03/15/2021:  11:13:28

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Originally posted by Ron C

I've stated this before and choose to present it again. There is a significant problem of violent crime (and crime, in general) in the USA.

The focus on police behavior takes our attention away from that bigger problem.  <snip>

My take is that it depends on what the problem is that's up for discussion.  IF the topic is police (mis)behaviour, it seems to me that that is where the attention should be focused.... not the overarching problems in society, the education levels, the family dynamics, poverty levels, etc., etc. I agree that those factors are of great importance in many of society's problems, but I think their relevance to the issue of police misconduct would be relatively minor.

Banjonewguy - Posted - 03/15/2021:  11:25:12

No Jan, they don't and the numbers prove you completely wrong.

"Purse snatching, muggings, Home Invasion, Carjackings, Knockout Game Crimes, are perpetrated exclusively by Blacks."

Google "White man snatches purse" and the second hit is a white guy in Denver that did a purse snatching. So no, they aren't exclusively done by blacks. Do you even know what "exclusive" means? If the very first one was so easy to disprove, I'll leave it to you to look up the rest.

" Whites are not committing violent Crimes against Blacks, and that is a fact you cannot dispute."

FBI UCR Expanded Homicide Data table 6 completely disputes that one. Oh, and that's just the murder data, not all violent crime.

You really aren't very good at this whole using actual facts in a discussion thing, are you?

Banjonewguy - Posted - 03/15/2021:  11:32:00

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Originally posted by jan dupree

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Originally posted by nakigreengrass

Here Ed.....It's pretty grim....particularly when clicking the rate icon ( crimes per 100,000 )

ojjdp.gov/ojstatbb/crime/ucr.a...rdoData=rquote:

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When you figure that many Black Offenders are being classified as "Hispanic' the rate is even higher. But some People will refuse to believe. Not only that but, about 70% of Blacks makeup the Prison System in some States. Even with a large percentage Incarcerated, they still manage to maintain those high numbers. 

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Again Jan, even if you call Asians, Hispanics, Martians and Aztecs black, white people STILL commit 60% of all violent crime. So your initial lie that Blacks commit 80% is still false because you can only have 100%. The more you try to defend complete fabrication, the more credibility you lose, if you had any from the start.

Owen - Posted - 03/15/2021:  13:03:29

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Originally posted by Banjonewguy.

  ..... 80% is still false because you can only have 100%.   

I'm  not so sure about that one.    Back in the 80s a prominent citizen was describing some pie (?) or program (?) or other: "Half is due to ________ ;  half is due to ________ ;  _______ will account for a third of it, with the remaining third coming from _________ . " 

[Edited after your comment, mainly to correct a couple of typos.... my computer is acting up.... for the past 15 or 20 minutes I'm getting repeated notices to pick where I'm sending my audio signals... headphones/external speakers/????/???? .... so I pick "external speakers" and the cycle repeats.] 

Edited by - Owen on 03/15/2021 13:13:23

Banjonewguy - Posted - 03/15/2021:  13:06:42

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Originally posted by Owen

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Originally posted by Banjonewguy.

 80% is still false because you can only have 100%.

I'm  not so sure about that one.    Back in the 80s a prominent citizen was describing some pie (?) or other: "Half is due to ________ ;  half is due to ________ ;  _______ will acoc*** for a third of it, with the remining third coming from _________ . "   

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Well, when it comes to pie it's ok to add a third to a whole 

steve davis - Posted - 03/15/2021:  13:10:46

I think living in cities is the biggest problem.
People do best when they can get away from everyone whenever they want to.

Banjonewguy - Posted - 03/15/2021:  13:14:04

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Originally posted by Ron C

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Originally posted by Banjonewguy

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Originally posted by jan dupree

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Originally posted by Edthebanjo

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Originally posted by jan dupree

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Originally posted by Edthebanjo

But when you account for the fact that members of the black community are much more likely to be involved with crime, and come into contact with the police at a much higher rate than non-black citizens, it indicates that the problem is a lot deeper than simply police targeting members of one race.

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They also commit 80% of the violent crime in this country according to FBI Statistics.

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Can you give a link to that statistic please? That's a lot higher than I've read before - I've heard 50% as an upper estimate.

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According to FBI Stats, the violent Crime Rate is 6 times higher for Blacks than Whites. Rape is not included in these stats. But Analysts say that when it is, the percentage for Blacks rises significantly. The wiki link for this info would not post. Blacks rob Whites 12 times more often than Whites rob Blacks. And one interesting fact is that, White on Black rapes is almost so non-existent, to the point that it cannot be calculated. 

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According to the FBI, whites commit about 60% of all violent crime and blacks commit about 37%. Not sure what FBI crime stats you are using but it would help to use the correct ones. The rate per population does not equal percentage. And by the way, you even got the rate wrong. White people, being 60% of the population, account for 60% which is equal to their population size. Blacks are 13% of the population and account for 37% of violent crime which is only slightly more than three times their population. Three is half of six so your numbers are twice as high as reality.

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I think you have to take the numbers one step further. The same US Justice Dept/FBI Uniform Crime Reports show that the large majority of the violent crimes that are committed by blacks are by males. The males make up 6-7% of the population, not 13%. Also, one year of the Uniform Crime Reports has the 37% of violent crime number you state. The other reports from 1994 - 2019 show a range from 37% to 51%, with the median around 49%. So, whether the value is 3 or six times the value for the general population depends on whether you count male and female or just male perps. Either way, one group is responsible for a significantly disproportionate amount of violent crime. We shy away from even discussing these numbers (not here on the Hangout) because even stating them directly from the reports will result in accusations of racism. To me, if you can't talk about it, you can't define the problem and then can't solve it.

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I agree. The numbers can be broken down much farther. The data that I used was from 2010 to 2020. If you break them down farther the result would probably still be close to what it is on the whole though. I haven't put that much effort into breaking things down by age groups.

xx - Posted - 03/15/2021:  13:41:30

The US has big problems....until you redefine what you view as equal rights and freedoms, these problems will be with you for ever.

When you have inequality of outcome, but have equality of opportunity....you need to tilt the playing field.

Edited by - xx on 03/15/2021 13:44:43

Ron C - Posted - 03/15/2021:  13:54:10

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Originally posted by Owen

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Originally posted by Ron C

I've stated this before and choose to present it again. There is a significant problem of violent crime (and crime, in general) in the USA.

The focus on police behavior takes our attention away from that bigger problem. 

My take is that it depends on what the problem is that's up for discussion.  IF the topic is police (mis)behaviour, it seems to me that that is where the attention should be focused.... not the overarching problems in society, the education levels, the family dynamics, poverty levels, etc., etc. I agree that those factors are of great importance in many of society's problems, but I think their relevance to the issue of police misconduct would be relatively minor.

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Thank you for your opinion, Owen, I appreciate it. I disagree in that the police and crime rate problems are so tightly wrapped together that we do a disservice when we separate them. If there is a community with a high crime rate, there are more police assigned. More police and more crime mean more police-citizen contact. The more contact, the greater the opportunity for legitimate force on force events as well as force on force from misjudgment and errors and also greater opportunity for police malfeasance. The higher the crime rate, the police become more alert and anxious. In my neighborhood, someone tried to break into a pickup truck. It was the second crime in 35 years in this community. Police are more relaxed and talkative, here. They know the stats and know there is little to fear. Put that same cop in a gang-infested neighborhood and I guarantee that police person will be on edge and less approachable and for good reason.

When dealing with a real-world engineering problem, I attempt to break down that problem into its component variables. Then, I look at each of those components of the problem to judge which have the greatest impact on the problem. The ones with the greatest impact get the largest part of my attention.

Owen - Posted - 03/15/2021:  13:56:44

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Originally posted by nakigreengrass

<snip> When you have inequality of outcome, but have equality of opportunity....you need to tilt the playing field.

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...and maybe even moreso when there's inequality of opportunity.  It was brought home to me in spades in the decade+ I worked on fly-in reserves.  There's light years between "choice" and "realistic choice."

Ron C - Posted - 03/15/2021:  14:14:43

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Originally posted by nakigreengrass

The US has big problems....until you redefine what you view as equal rights and freedoms, these problems will be with you for ever.

When you have inequality of outcome, but have equality of opportunity....you need to tilt the playing field.

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That is a GREAT theme for another thread - and I am serious about that. I am certain that your statement will generate considerable participation.

Every nation that considers itself "free" should have a running discussion and debate about the level of freedom or lack thereof. And every nation I have worked in has struggled with similar problems but at different levels of intensity (Brazil, Venezuela, India, Nepal, South Africa, Mali, Ghana, Senegal, Ivory Coast, England, etc.)

New Zealand is a country as peaceful as it gets (don't get me started on the All Blacks Rugby Team). However, As Anna Fifield said in 2019: " New Zealand has had a race relations problem ever since it was colonized by Britain as a settler colony in the early 1800s. The Maori population continues to suffer even today. Maori make up 15 percent of the New Zealand population but account for more than half the prison population. They are at the bottom of many health and economic statistical tables. "

" Auckland is the biggest Polynesian city in the world. Historical issues and socioeconomic disparities between the indigenous Maori and the Pakeha — or New Zealanders of European descent — are slowly being addressed, although a lot remains to be done. "

" “White supremacy is a black strand woven through our history as a nation,” acclaimed historian Anne Salmond wrote in the Christchurch newspaper the Press"

" Acclaimed filmmaker Taika Waititi caused a heated debate here when he said in an interview that New Zealand was “racist as f---.” "

Ron

banjo bill-e - Posted - 03/15/2021:  14:28:38

Should the outcome for one who works very hard be the same as the outcome for one who works as little as possible, or one who will not work at all?
Just how far down the "equality of outcome" road do you really want to go? Because the next question is: how hard will the first example continue to work if the goof-off and the non-worker gets the same "outcome"?
Do we know of anyplace on earth where equality of outcome is an accomplished fact? Anywhere? Ever?
And, is equality of outcome a desired goal if the outcome is equal misery?

jack crowder - Posted - 03/15/2021:  15:16:19

Record any contact you have with poilice, makes everybody honest.

steve davis - Posted - 03/15/2021:  15:26:01

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Originally posted by nakigreengrass

The US has big problems....until you redefine what you view as equal rights and freedoms, these problems will be with you for ever.

When you have inequality of outcome, but have equality of opportunity....you need to tilt the playing field.

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Maybe you haven't noticed from your little island,but the entire world is struggling deeply as usual with religious and political upheaval.Same old,same old.

The information age has merely exposed it all in real time.No place to hide and people are proving that they are just human beings with all their good and bad points...for all the world to see.

At some point we have to start forgiving each other for simply being human,but this also means taking responsibility for our bad side.

xx - Posted - 03/15/2021:  15:27:21

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Originally posted by Ron C

quote:

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Originally posted by nakigreengrass

The US has big problems....until you redefine what you view as equal rights and freedoms, these problems will be with you for ever.

When you have inequality of outcome, but have equality of opportunity....you need to tilt the playing field.

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That is a GREAT theme for another thread - and I am serious about that. I am certain that your statement will generate considerable participation.

Every nation that considers itself "free" should have a running discussion and debate about the level of freedom or lack thereof. And every nation I have worked in has struggled with similar problems but at different levels of intensity (Brazil, Venezuela, India, Nepal, South Africa, Mali, Ghana, Senegal, Ivory Coast, England, etc.)

New Zealand is a country as peaceful as it gets (don't get me started on the All Blacks Rugby Team). However, As Anna Fifield said in 2019: " New Zealand has had a race relations problem ever since it was colonized by Britain as a settler colony in the early 1800s. The Maori population continues to suffer even today. Maori make up 15 percent of the New Zealand population but account for more than half the prison population. They are at the bottom of many health and economic statistical tables. "

" Auckland is the biggest Polynesian city in the world. Historical issues and socioeconomic disparities between the indigenous Maori and the Pakeha — or New Zealanders of European descent — are slowly being addressed, although a lot remains to be done. "

" “White supremacy is a black strand woven through our history as a nation,” acclaimed historian Anne Salmond wrote in the Christchurch newspaper the Press"

" Acclaimed filmmaker Taika Waititi caused a heated debate here when he said in an interview that New Zealand was “racist as f---.” "

Ron

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You are quite well informed....but remember.... by the very nature of the media, predominantly sensational views get aired.....

  What i,ve alluded to is...the acceptance of white New Zealanders to agree to a difference in the way we deal with both Pakeha and Polynesian societies.  It is in a way, developing into an controlled apartheid system here.  Thats not entirely a bad thing for most middle/higher class Pakeha, but lower socio economical Pakeha feel disadvantaged...and thats where the white supremacist BS rears it's ugly head.

I also think it would make a good thread....but I really dont think Americans are ready to go down this path....it's a bit....complex.

Edited by - xx on 03/15/2021 15:34:01

jan dupree - Posted - 03/15/2021:  15:31:21

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Originally posted by Banjonewguy

No Jan, they don't and the numbers prove you completely wrong.



"Purse snatching, muggings, Home Invasion, Carjackings, Knockout Game Crimes, are perpetrated exclusively by Blacks."



Google "White man snatches purse" and the second hit is a white guy in Denver that did a purse snatching. So no, they aren't exclusively done by blacks. Do you even know what "exclusive" means? If the very first one was so easy to disprove, I'll leave it to you to look up the rest.



" Whites are not committing violent Crimes against Blacks, and that is a fact you cannot dispute."



FBI UCR Expanded Homicide Data table 6 completely disputes that one. Oh, and that's just the murder data, not all violent crime.



You really aren't very good at this whole using actual facts in a discussion thing, are you?

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So you searched around until you found a White Purse Snatching Offender, what does that prove? Check out this Flash Mob, I don't see one here. youtu.be/HX-CeN6W5Mg Not here either youtu.be/ksuhDS1SqUI  The Newsom Murders in Knoxville youtu.be/CqS6OFuUXe8  You will even deny this youtu.be/YcFiz1GGYCk  White Girl Bleed a Lot.

Edited by - jan dupree on 03/15/2021 15:39:20

Edthebanjo - Posted - 03/15/2021:  15:35:16

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Originally posted by jan dupree

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Originally posted by Banjonewguy

No Jan, they don't and the numbers prove you completely wrong.



"Purse snatching, muggings, Home Invasion, Carjackings, Knockout Game Crimes, are perpetrated exclusively by Blacks."



Google "White man snatches purse" and the second hit is a white guy in Denver that did a purse snatching. So no, they aren't exclusively done by blacks. Do you even know what "exclusive" means? If the very first one was so easy to disprove, I'll leave it to you to look up the rest.



" Whites are not committing violent Crimes against Blacks, and that is a fact you cannot dispute."



FBI UCR Expanded Homicide Data table 6 completely disputes that one. Oh, and that's just the murder data, not all violent crime.



You really aren't very good at this whole using actual facts in a discussion thing, are you?

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So you searched around until you found a White Purse Snatching Offender, what does that prove? Check out this Flash Mob, I don't see one here. youtu.be/HX-CeN6W5Mg Not here either youtu.be/ksuhDS1SqUI

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Well, for a start, it proves your assertation that purse-snatching is perpetrated "exclusively by blacks" is wrong. 

 

In the world of mathematics, this is known as a "trivial" proof by counter-example.

Edited by - Edthebanjo on 03/15/2021 15:38:14

jan dupree - Posted - 03/15/2021:  15:42:14

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Originally posted by Edthebanjo

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Originally posted by jan dupree

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Originally posted by Banjonewguy

No Jan, they don't and the numbers prove you completely wrong.



"Purse snatching, muggings, Home Invasion, Carjackings, Knockout Game Crimes, are perpetrated exclusively by Blacks."



Google "White man snatches purse" and the second hit is a white guy in Denver that did a purse snatching. So no, they aren't exclusively done by blacks. Do you even know what "exclusive" means? If the very first one was so easy to disprove, I'll leave it to you to look up the rest.



" Whites are not committing violent Crimes against Blacks, and that is a fact you cannot dispute."



FBI UCR Expanded Homicide Data table 6 completely disputes that one. Oh, and that's just the murder data, not all violent crime.



You really aren't very good at this whole using actual facts in a discussion thing, are you?

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So you searched around until you found a White Purse Snatching Offender, what does that prove? Check out this Flash Mob, I don't see one here. youtu.be/HX-CeN6W5Mg Not here either youtu.be/ksuhDS1SqUI

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Well, for a start, it proves your assertation that purse-snatching is perpetrated "exclusively by blacks" is wrong. 

 

In the world of mathematics, this is known as a "trivial" proof by counter-example.

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All you are presenting is a twisted interpretation of facts. I  show proof. youtu.be/QNf33fShMq4

Edited by - jan dupree on 03/15/2021 15:42:37

steve davis - Posted - 03/15/2021:  15:43:27

People in glass houses...

Edthebanjo - Posted - 03/15/2021:  15:51:22

Yeah, I can't see a point in pursuing this. You're clearly more interested in jamming extra spanners in the works rather than solving problems.

jan dupree - Posted - 03/15/2021:  15:58:32

youtu.be/2IUtd4rW46s Blacks murdering Whites is an epidemic.

Owen - Posted - 03/15/2021:  16:00:06

A distorted/fake/out-of-context/sensationalized/???  report that just appeared on our regional CTV network:  ctvnews.ca/world/police-releas...1.5346915

BanjoLink - Posted - 03/15/2021:  16:30:07

I have been following this thread closely ..... so many good points. My city has a significant black population of around 25% and my brother was a policeman for over 30 years, so he had many encounters with both black and white citizens. In that time span he only shot one person, a 19 year old white boy that was high on drugs threatening people with a machete, including him, after telling him 3 times to drop it, at which point he started advancing toward my brother. The shot him in the thigh with his .357 Magnum pistol.



He never shot at any other citizens, black or white, and as far as I know very rarely had to hit anyone with his fist or other object. I know he wrestled with more than a few, perhaps had to hit, or elbow, or otherwise do something to restrain someone, but relatively little violence on a daily basis. I do know that he thought one of the bad cops on the force was the ex-husband of one of my wife's black friends. My brother thought he was a bully (to both black and white citizens) and was universally disliked on the city police force. I don't doubt that there are bullies, of both races, on other police forces as well.



I don't think my brother's experience is totally unique, as I think there are many officers who have never shot anyone and had few cases of extreme violence. But as Ron C put so well, there are some however that their entire experience is in neighborhoods where violent confrontations are quite commonplace. In cities like Baltimore, Atlanta, Philadelphia, etc. there is a good chance that many, or most, of those officers are black. Based on what I know, I am going to say the vast majority of the officers that serve are fine public servants.



One comment about the "60 minute" piece last night on the District Attorney and police union/police force in St. Louis. After the profile piece on the city DA, it dawned on me that both the police union and the DA bear some/much of the fault of the law enforcement mess in that city. I am convinced that there is a degree of incompetence within the DA office (including her), as well as the police union. Trying to pin everything on the police and leaving out those that are running the justice system, to me, is a little disingenuous.

Bill Rogers - Posted - 03/15/2021:  17:24:49

Are cops “out to get” people? In other words—to move beyond the necessary means of getting control of a situation or an accused person? When they move beyond necessary means of control to actively punishing someone who has created a problem, police are simply out of bounds—perhaps criminally so. It does happen. Probably a lot more than we know of. Here’s an example.

washingtonpost.com/nation/2021...man-text/

Ron C - Posted - 03/15/2021:  17:50:33

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bill Rogers

Are cops “out to get” people? In other words—to move beyond the necessary means of getting control of a situation or an accused person? When they move beyond necessary means of control to actively punishing someone who has created a problem, police are simply out of bounds—perhaps criminally so. It does happen. Probably a lot more than we know of. Here’s an example.

washingtonpost.com/nation/2021...man-text/

---

Mr. Rogers, your example is a good one to demonstrate police behaving in an unacceptable manner. I have read many articles and seen on the news instances of police engaging with excessive force. There is a point to be made, here.

If I see a case of a person of color resisting arrest on TV, or watch case after case of homicide investigations on the show "48 Hours" in which each case involves black men, and I exclaim that those violent people represent everyone or a large percentage of their "race", I would be declared a racist. That would be a reasonable accusation.

If I see a police officer acting overly aggressively with excess force against a person in the news (like your example) and conclude that they are all like that or that most police are like that, or that there is more behavior like that we don't hear about, then doesn't that make me the same as the racist? Perhaps you could call me "policist." 

If you read one of my other posts, you will see that out of 60 million contacts with citizens 16 years old or older each year, there are 1000 killed by police. That is, and I repeat, 0.0016%. About 230 of the 1000 is black. I supply the references.

This one example you give is not sufficient to reach the conclusion: "Probably a lot more than we know of."

Thank you,

Ron

Owen - Posted - 03/15/2021:  17:52:52

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bill Rogers

Probably a lot more than we know of. Here’s an example.

washingtonpost.com/nation/2021...man-text/

I couldn't open it without subscribing, but I think the headline likely gives it away. 

You say "probably".... but I think you're 'way off. The negative stuff only makes the news (?)  if it's sensational enough, AND if somebody gets a video of it, or somebody brings it to the attention of an "investigative reporter," or there's some sort of an inquiry, or an individual has the time, money and emotional resources to pursue it thru the legal system.  Although videos are becoming more widespread, my logic [without supporting stats] says that those other factors are only present in a very small proportion of the actual number of cases of police misconduct.  Then add in instances like losing notes, jury tampering, witness tampering, evidence tampering, etc. .   I say "'way off" because from what I see/hear, it's a guaranteed-slam-dunk-bet-the-farm if ever there was one.  

Fwiw, the rationale from those who try to minimize or deflect from the issue makes me think of Whoopee's: "Well, it wasn't rape rape."

Edit: Ron, consider this entirely made-up example. Somebody's  teen age daughter has been molested after band practice by her teacher.  I expect stats would show that only a tiny fraction of teachers molest students.... then as it was a music teacher, the fraction is considerably less... continue down that path to one's heart's content.  Is the problem somehow lessened for the victim, her family and indeed society because the proportion is small?  The proportion of good or uneventful or typical (?) interactions is of absolutely no relevance whatsoever.

Edited by - Owen on 03/15/2021 18:08:01

Ron C - Posted - 03/15/2021:  21:23:14

I have stated, Owen, that police use of excessive force is unacceptable and should be addressed using the proscribed procedures. I also have pointed out that there are bad police as there are bad people in every job and profession. Unless there is evidence of wide-spread misbehavior, each case of police abuse of power should be dealt with individually. Anecdotal mentions of individual cases of presumed police misbehavior are not evidence of rampant police use of excessive force.

If the band teacher you use as an example is the only one accused or convicted of illegal and disgusting behavior, then that person should be charged, judged, and, if found guilty, punished. But we then don't say that all or most band teachers are molesters UNLESS THERE IS EVIDENCE FOR THAT. The number of cases or proportions mean nothing to the devastated family and children. But the numbers and proportions do mean something to the rest of the public. The rest of the public wants to know if band teacher misbehavior occurs at a rate that should make us all concerned and anxious for our kids. The numbers and proportions are relevant.

Police, on the other hand, are judged by the public, and guilt is assumed before the public even has access to the evidence. An event is reported. Some people respond as if the police officer is guilty and should be punished straight away. Some say immediately that the particular case is evidence of a systemic problem with police.

The signs that say "we want justice now!" do not mean that it is justice that is desired. It means we want charges and an immediate assumption of guilt. Justice is an internal investigation, an external investigation, and if evidence directs it, a Grand Jury hearing. If it is determined by the independent, objective Grand Jurors that a trial is necessary, then there is a trial with a jury of independent objective individuals (we hope). Many of the most prominent cases that were in the news about police shootings and the use of excessive force were dismissed by the Grand Jury after hearing the evidence. Grand Juries can keep the cases secret, can issue transcripts of just the witness testimonies, or release transcripts of the entire hearings. I have read the transcripts available for a few of the most prominent and highly publicized police actions (Ferguson, MO; the New York "I can't breathe" case, and others) that never went beyond the Grand Jury stage. Yet people still use those cases as examples for claiming widespread police abuse.

The EVIDENCE is in the proportions. The use of anecdotal examples is not evidence of widespread, systemic abuse.

The proportion of good or bad behavior is, I believe, entirely relevant. If the EVIDENCE suggests that misbehavior is rampant, then there is a systemic problem that needs to be addressed urgently. If the EVIDENCE (such as the proportions I showed) shows misbehavior to occur but is rare, then the cases must be dealt with independently.

Banjonewguy - Posted - 03/16/2021:  01:16:29

quote:

---

Originally posted by jan dupree

quote:

---

Originally posted by Banjonewguy

No Jan, they don't and the numbers prove you completely wrong.



"Purse snatching, muggings, Home Invasion, Carjackings, Knockout Game Crimes, are perpetrated exclusively by Blacks."



Google "White man snatches purse" and the second hit is a white guy in Denver that did a purse snatching. So no, they aren't exclusively done by blacks. Do you even know what "exclusive" means? If the very first one was so easy to disprove, I'll leave it to you to look up the rest.



" Whites are not committing violent Crimes against Blacks, and that is a fact you cannot dispute."



FBI UCR Expanded Homicide Data table 6 completely disputes that one. Oh, and that's just the murder data, not all violent crime.



You really aren't very good at this whole using actual facts in a discussion thing, are you?

---

So you searched around until you found a White Purse Snatching Offender, what does that prove? Check out this Flash Mob, I don't see one here. youtu.be/HX-CeN6W5Mg Not here either youtu.be/ksuhDS1SqUI  The Newsom Murders in Knoxville youtu.be/CqS6OFuUXe8  You will even deny this youtu.be/YcFiz1GGYCk  White Girl Bleed a Lot.

---

No jan. I typed it in google and it was THE SECOND hit. No searching around required. And it proves that these things aren't exclusively a black issue. I'm not the one denying anything. I've posted factual numbers and stats. I know about those videos and I know there are videos of white people who do the same thing. The hilarious thing is how you, of all people given the sites you are associated with, will sit there and try to tell me that white people don't commit violent crimes against black people.

GrahamHawker - Posted - 03/16/2021:  03:45:49

quote:

---

Originally posted by jan dupree

All you are presenting is a twisted interpretation of facts. I  show proof. youtu.be/QNf33fShMq4

---

Posting videos from racists which attracts a lot of racists in the comments only proves one thing. I'm amazed that this forum allows such stuff considering what else is banned.

okbluegrassbanjopicker - Posted - 03/16/2021:  04:38:27

 I believe the main reasons that some cops are “out to get you” is that they never had a good “father figure” while growing up, and therefore assume that the badge renders them free to enact any kind of violence, even if the situation doesn’t require it - or, they falsely assume that their position is such that they have the right to abuse their authority, when they “feel like it,” - or, they never liked (even hated) their job anyway, and so take out their frustrations on the unfortunate offender.

 Without fail, you guys always insert a bunch of other things and over-complicate an issue, trying to prove the other guy wrong.

 My point in posting the thread was absolutely not to get in a show of “smarts” - rarely, if ever, do I contribute to threads in which members take the greatest pleasure in lambasting each other.

 I see zero sense in threads that turn into endless discussions “for the sake of discussing something.” 

 Furthermore, I don’t think for one second that anyone here has the whole picture. I certainly don’t. 

 Nobody here has the right to slam anyone else simply because they think they know oh-so-much-more, “and that “__” can just shut up.” 

If Eric were to give free reign on Hangout content (especially on threads such as this), the site would be GONE in short order.

Some policemen more than likely DO try to “get you,” because of their physique. It is without question that there is more than one policeman that has used his brute strength to browbeat and cow a prisoner or victim into compliance.

 To enforce (pardon the pun) my point:

 18 years ago this past Sunday, my third oldest sister was brutally mishandled by a police officer, while she was (TRULY) protesting peacefully against a life issue.

 The officer forcefully wrenched and held my sister’s arms behind her back in a double hammerlock and sat on her back; all the time my sister was screaming in tremendous pain.  

 She had a court trial at which the conclusion was that she was “not guilty.” 

 Suffice it to say that it was a very traumatic experience for my sister. 

 What is dead wrong, is when the officer KEEPS ON ATTACKING, after the individual has clearly surrendered.

Edited by - okbluegrassbanjopicker on 03/16/2021 04:47:28

DC5 - Posted - 03/16/2021:  05:37:02

Do we know what kind of healthcare the police have?

Ron C - Posted - 03/16/2021:  06:36:20

quote:

---

Originally posted by DC5

Do we know what kind of healthcare the police have?

---

Locally:

steve davis - Posted - 03/16/2021:  07:42:28

The words allowed on the TV and elsewhere only add to the divisiveness.

I believe more responsibility needs to be taken for the effects of the spoken and printed word.

God bless freedom of expression that takes responsibility for its outcomes.

Lawyers are very good at "adjusting" that responsibility.

Edited by - steve davis on 03/16/2021 07:45:21

steve davis - Posted - 03/16/2021:  08:37:44

An apartheid system is bad for everyone,Paula whether complete or partial.
It's like saying "I'm fine...just a partial racist."

DC5 - Posted - 03/16/2021:  08:58:24

How many policemen does it take to push a perp down the stairs? None, he tripped.

jan dupree - Posted - 03/16/2021:  10:53:52

quote:

---

Originally posted by Owen

A distorted/fake/out-of-context/sensationalized/???  report that just appeared on our regional CTV network:  ctvnews.ca/world/police-releas...1.5346915

---

Shooting an unarmed man used to get you strung up. If we did that we would be in Prison. But in most Police Departments the Cops have Immunity from Prosecution, and nothing happens to them, they can even do it again.

jan dupree - Posted - 03/16/2021:  11:01:48

quote:

---

Originally posted by okbluegrassbanjopicker

 I believe the main reasons that some cops are “out to get you” is that they never had a good “father figure” while growing up, and therefore assume that the badge renders them free to enact any kind of violence, even if the situation doesn’t require it - or, they falsely assume that their position is such that they have the right to abuse their authority, when they “feel like it,” - or, they never liked (even hated) their job anyway, and so take out their frustrations on the unfortunate offender.

 Without fail, you guys always insert a bunch of other things and over-complicate an issue, trying to prove the other guy wrong.

 My point in posting the thread was absolutely not to get in a show of “smarts” - rarely, if ever, do I contribute to threads in which members take the greatest pleasure in lambasting each other.

 I see zero sense in threads that turn into endless discussions “for the sake of discussing something.” 

 

 Furthermore, I don’t think for one second that anyone here has the whole picture. I certainly don’t. 

 Nobody here has the right to slam anyone else simply because they think they know oh-so-much-more, “and that “__” can just shut up.” 

If Eric were to give free reign on Hangout content (especially on threads such as this), the site would be GONE in short order.

 

Some policemen more than likely DO try to “get you,” because of their physique. It is without question that there is more than one policeman that has used his brute strength to browbeat and cow a prisoner or victim into compliance.

 To enforce (pardon the pun) my point:

 18 years ago this past Sunday, my third oldest sister was brutally mishandled by a police officer, while she was (TRULY) protesting peacefully against a life issue.

 The officer forcefully wrenched and held my sister’s arms behind her back in a double hammerlock and sat on her back; all the time my sister was screaming in tremendous pain.  

 She had a court trial at which the conclusion was that she was “not guilty.” 

 Suffice it to say that it was a very traumatic experience for my sister. 

 What is dead wrong, is when the officer KEEPS ON ATTACKING, after the individual has clearly surrendered.

---

The Profession is over represented by individuals with dysfunctional and defective, Psychological and Personality disorders. In many cases the upper echelon are also afflicted with these defects. That is why it is allowed to flourish, and makes it appear that every Law Enforcement Agency propagates it and is guilty.

jan dupree - Posted - 03/16/2021:  11:03:18

quote:

---

Originally posted by GrahamHawker

quote:

---

Originally posted by jan dupree

All you are presenting is a twisted interpretation of facts. I  show proof. youtu.be/QNf33fShMq4

---

Posting videos from racists which attracts a lot of racists in the comments only proves one thing. I'm amazed that this forum allows such stuff considering what else is banned.

---

This is extremely tame, you should see GAB and Parlor.

Edited by - jan dupree on 03/16/2021 11:03:37

Bolie Jackson - Posted - 03/16/2021:  11:19:16

I think you belong on those sites then. Better fit

Owen - Posted - 03/16/2021:  11:49:42

quote:

---

Originally posted by okbluegrassbanjopicker.

 <snip> What is dead wrong, is when the officer KEEPS ON ATTACKING, after the individual has clearly surrendered.

---

...you mean like this instance where officers tasered the dude after he was subdued, handcuffed and pinned on the ground?   [And then lied about it resulting in conviction for perjury and colluding with fellow officers.]

cbc.ca/news/canada/british-col...1.3122941

Edited by - Owen on 03/16/2021 11:52:04

jan dupree - Posted - 03/16/2021:  12:38:52

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bolie Jackson

I think you belong on those sites then. Better fit

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I am already on both.