Bolie Jackson - Posted - 03/13/2021:  09:52:42

quote:

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Originally posted by banjo bill-e

We could keep whining about it or we could take a few discreet positive actions:

Eliminate qualified immunity.

Eliminate asset forfeiture.

Eliminate police unions.

Decriminalize drug usage.

Decriminalize sex work.

Establish local independent police oversite boards with real power.

and---------------- your suggestions?



But I suppose that all that noise about police reform last year was just noise after all, as that seems to be a forgotten issue now. Certainly did not make the top ten of policy concerns, by anybody, this round.

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I never thought I'd type these words, but .....I agree with Bill-E! (and a small extent, Jan). All of these proposed changes merit discussion and I believe would help with the problems within the LEO system. I've posted at length about this issue in past threads based on my personal experience living within extensive current and past generation law enforcement- and these family member's feedback and experiences (including in locations such as Baltimore, New York City, LA, and suburban/rural locations). The system needs reforms without question. Good officers need to be praised, supported, and respected. They live each day in danger of losing their lives. They represent the majority. However the number of bad cops gives the rest of them, and the departments, a bad name and puts them all at increased risk.

Edited by - Bolie Jackson on 03/13/2021 09:55:24

Texican65 - Posted - 03/13/2021:  10:26:55

I don't understand Mr. Hillard's comments about "being in the group police tend not to shoot", or "I guess the guys who think police are doing just fine are all white".

In 2017, 457 whites were killed by police, 223 blacks

In 2018, 399 whites were killed by police, 209 blacks

In 2019, 370 whites were killed by police, 235 blacks

In 2020, 432 whites were killed by police, 226 blacks

So far in 2021...34 whites have been killed by police, 16 blacks.

White people ARE being killed by police...

I'm not sure why this information is overlooked or blatantly disregarded. I guess because it doesn't fit the agenda.

AndrewD - Posted - 03/13/2021:  10:39:13

quote:

---

Originally posted by Texican65

I don't understand Mr. Hillard's comments about "being in the group police tend not to shoot", or "I guess the guys who think police are doing just fine are all white".



In 2017, 457 whites were killed by police, 223 blacks



In 2018, 399 whites were killed by police, 209 blacks



In 2019, 370 whites were killed by police, 235 blacks



In 2020, 432 whites were killed by police, 226 blacks



So far in 2021...34 whites have been killed by police, 16 blacks.



White people ARE being killed by police...



I'm not sure why this information is overlooked or blatantly disregarded. I guess because it doesn't fit the agenda.

---

We've had this one before. 13% of the US population is black. So if (2020 figures) 432 whites were killed we would expect about 30 blacks to be killed, not 226,  if race were not a factor.  Exactly why and where race is a factor is another argument. But presenting (again) these crude statistics as if they have any use or meaning doesn't really help.

Texican65 - Posted - 03/13/2021:  11:08:20

quote:

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Originally posted by AndrewD

quote:

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Originally posted by Texican65

I don't understand Mr. Hillard's comments about "being in the group police tend not to shoot", or "I guess the guys who think police are doing just fine are all white".



In 2017, 457 whites were killed by police, 223 blacks



In 2018, 399 whites were killed by police, 209 blacks



In 2019, 370 whites were killed by police, 235 blacks



In 2020, 432 whites were killed by police, 226 blacks



So far in 2021...34 whites have been killed by police, 16 blacks.



White people ARE being killed by police...



I'm not sure why this information is overlooked or blatantly disregarded. I guess because it doesn't fit the agenda.

---

We've had this one before. 13% of the US population is black. So if (2020 figures) 432 whites were killed we would expect about 30 blacks to be killed, not 226,  if race were not a factor.  Exactly why and where race is a factor is another argument. But presenting (again) these crude statistics as if they have any use or meaning doesn't really help.

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The statistics show that everybody is killed by police, regardless of color. Mr Hillard suggested that white people were not included, which is incorrect. 

 

No debate on percentages based on population or as to the reason why people are being shot. But the fact is, lots of whites are killed by police too, over 400 in one year. And I'm sure that many of those deaths were results of the person not complying or following directions from the police officer. 

Edthebanjo - Posted - 03/13/2021:  11:12:44

But when you account for the fact that members of the black community are much more likely to be involved with crime, and come into contact with the police at a much higher rate than non-black citizens, it indicates that the problem is a lot deeper than simply police targeting members of one race.

latigo1 - Posted - 03/13/2021:  11:50:55

Police officers give simple commands that a 3 year old can understand. During my law enforcement career I never saw anyone who obeyed these commands get hurt or killed. Anyone with common sense will obey those commands even if they think the officer is wrong to give them. They can always file a complaint later. People without any common sense won't obey the commands and will continue to escalate the situation to a point where they get hurt or killed. Police officers do not have a duty to retreat. They have a job to do and will not leave until the job is done. If, somewhere in this situation, an officer feels there is a threat to his safety or his life, he will respond to that threat with a quick, decisive response.

Owen - Posted - 03/13/2021:  13:17:00

Tongue-in-cheek, Ed I dunno about  "...it indicates that the problem is a lot deeper than simply police targeting members of one race." When I said essentially that same thing I was told that "You're out of your league, kid"  based on the fact that heruka had known more murder victims than the number of people I'd seen shot.

Dave, should the outcome [i.e. get shot] be the same for a dude who disobeys AND threatens an officer as it is for the dude who disobeys an officer, but does NOT threaten the officer?   [I'm not asking about what might or might not have have de-escalated or prevented a certain situation; just asking a straightforward question if whether or not you think the same outcome is just/right/proper in two very different situations.]

Edited by - Owen on 03/13/2021 13:18:17

chuckv97 - Posted - 03/13/2021:  13:33:18

Back in my rowdy drinking days I was thrown into a holding cell in a small police station, not unlike Andy Taylor’s where you were right in the office, so to speak. I had my banjo with me on that escapade, so I took it out and started playing. After 10 minutes of that racket this growly-looking young officer walked up to the bars and in no uncertain terms (#*^>) told me to put that thing away or I’ll see it in pieces. .................. I , ahem, put it back in the case. Let’s face it - he was bigger than I was and had a gun!

Edited by - chuckv97 on 03/13/2021 13:35:12

AndrewD - Posted - 03/13/2021:  13:34:08

quote:

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Originally posted by Edthebanjo

But when you account for the fact that members of the black community are much more likely to be involved with crime, and come into contact with the police at a much higher rate than non-black citizens, it indicates that the problem is a lot deeper than simply police targeting members of one race.

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You live in a country where so few people are killed due to police action that they are individually listed on wikipedia. Why are you excusing another country's seeming policy of racially biased extra-judicial execution ? 

Edthebanjo - Posted - 03/13/2021:  14:08:02

quote:

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Originally posted by AndrewD

quote:

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Originally posted by Edthebanjo

But when you account for the fact that members of the black community are much more likely to be involved with crime, and come into contact with the police at a much higher rate than non-black citizens, it indicates that the problem is a lot deeper than simply police targeting members of one race.

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You live in a country where so few people are killed due to police action that they are individually listed on wikipedia. Why are you excusing another country's seeming policy of racially biased extra-judicial execution ? 

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What are you talking about...? I'm not excusing it at all - I'm pointing out that simply saying that the police are killing black people because of their own racism is a poor explanation of why so many black people are killed by police. There are plenty of other factors at play, some of which we know about and presumably some which we don't. That's why it's a complex problem.

By chalking it all up to the racism of the police you're doing nothing to solve the problem. You're just misdiagnosing it. And specifically misdiagnosing it in such a way that, by proclaiming your own anti-racism, and blaming a system over which you have no controll, you're able to sit back and feel good about yourself whilst doing the square root of bugger all.

(I'm using "you" in the sense of "one"... not "you" specifically, by the way).

banjo bill-e - Posted - 03/13/2021:  14:53:35

Bolie posted---"I never thought I'd type these words, but .....I agree with Bill-E!---"



I want to thank you for that reply and note how rare that is. Too often people are pigeon-holed into this or that group, at which point whatever they may be saying is considered irrelevant. That is such a strong trend today that it is becoming impossible to accomplish anything that requires agreement over a cross section of the populace. We need to try to find points on which there is agreement and agree to work together on just those issues instead of using every issue to further attack the other side, or deciding that due to someone's views on THIS subject that they can not possibly have anything valuable to contribute to THAT subject. So, thanks for rising above partisanship and, regardless of whether you agree or not,  responding to what I actually said.

We need more of that, everywhere.

Edited by - banjo bill-e on 03/13/2021 14:54:41

latigo1 - Posted - 03/13/2021:  16:38:11

quote:

---

Originally posted by Owen

Tongue-in-cheek, Ed I dunno about  "...it indicates that the problem is a lot deeper than simply police targeting members of one race." When I said essentially that same thing I was told that "You're out of your league, kid"  based on the fact that heruka had known more murder victims than the number of people I'd seen shot.

Dave, should the outcome [i.e. get shot] be the same for a dude who disobeys AND threatens an officer as it is for the dude who disobeys an officer, but does NOT threaten the officer?   [I'm not asking about what might or might not have have de-escalated or prevented a certain situation; just asking a straightforward question if whether or not you think the same outcome is just/right/proper in two very different situations.]

---

Police are not authorized to use deadly force in the event of a simple threat.  I can't remember how many times I was threatened, but it was many.  Police can use deadly force only when they percieve an act is about to take place that will cause them, or some other person, serious injury or death.  Officers are bound by a policy called continuem of force.  It starts with verbal commands, escalates to a hands on (including handcuffing) , goes up a notch to pepper spray / batons / tazer, and the last step is lethal weapon.  An officer should try, but does not have to go through each step to handle a situation.  If he starts with verbal commands and the subject pulls a gun, the officer can go directly to the last step in order to protect himself.  The threat does not have to be real, only percieved.  This perception is based on the reasonable man rule in court.  If a reasonable man, with the same training and experience as the officer, would see the threat in the same way as the officer, then it is considered reasonable for the officer to act to protect himself.  Last year a police officer shot a suspect who pointed a tazer at him.  Inexperienced people said the tazer was not deadly so why did the officer shoot him.  The officer shot him because in this case the outcome could very well be deadly for the officer.  If he is immobilized by a tazer, the suspect could easily take the officers gun and shoot him with it. That is a credible threat to the officer.  Mistakes are made.  Things happen fast in real life. An officer sometimes does not have time to determine whether or not the threat is real.  Would you expect an officer to have to wait for the bullet to arrive before determining whether the gun was real or not?  If the officer sees an object in a subjects hand, and he refuses to drop it when told and the officer percieves it to be a gun, and in fact it is not, it is a tragic mistake, but not the officers fault. The fault lies with the non compliant person.  Officers make mistakes. People have been killed by those mistakes, but sometimes mistakes result in an officers death as well.  More than one officer has been killed because he hesitated to take action, trying to be sure the threat was actually real. A subject does not have to be armed to be considered a threat to an officer.  A suspects size, weight, athletic skill, drugs, and other things vs the size, weight, athletic skill of the officer are considered.  If a female or small male officer is about to be attacked by an obviously larger, stronger attacker, the officers can take whatever measures are necessary to protect themselves.  Officers in these instances who are not convicted of a crime, do not get off because of a cover up.  They are not convicted because they acted, to the best of their ability, in accordance with the law.

Owen - Posted - 03/13/2021:  17:12:52

Dave, that's ^^ all well and good, but I can't find the answer to my question.  My simple, straightforward question has nothing to do with protocols, the level of threat [either real or perceived], the respective sizes or athletic abilities of the officer and the suspect, etc., etc., etc.  [I thought "..does NOT threaten the officer" was fairly clear.]

However, I notice you did ask a question of me: "Would you expect an officer to have to wait for the bullet to arrive before determining whether the gun was real or not?" How 'bout we make a deal.... toot-de-sweet after you answer my question I'll answer yours???   

Edited by - Owen on 03/13/2021 17:15:56

Texican65 - Posted - 03/13/2021:  19:31:55

quote:

---

Originally posted by latigo1

quote:

---

Originally posted by Owen

Tongue-in-cheek, Ed I dunno about  "...it indicates that the problem is a lot deeper than simply police targeting members of one race." When I said essentially that same thing I was told that "You're out of your league, kid"  based on the fact that heruka had known more murder victims than the number of people I'd seen shot.

Dave, should the outcome [i.e. get shot] be the same for a dude who disobeys AND threatens an officer as it is for the dude who disobeys an officer, but does NOT threaten the officer?   [I'm not asking about what might or might not have have de-escalated or prevented a certain situation; just asking a straightforward question if whether or not you think the same outcome is just/right/proper in two very different situations.]

---

Police are not authorized to use deadly force in the event of a simple threat.  I can't remember how many times I was threatened, but it was many.  Police can use deadly force only when they percieve an act is about to take place that will cause them, or some other person, serious injury or death.  Officers are bound by a policy called continuem of force.  It starts with verbal commands, escalates to a hands on (including handcuffing) , goes up a notch to pepper spray / batons / tazer, and the last step is lethal weapon.  An officer should try, but does not have to go through each step to handle a situation.  If he starts with verbal commands and the subject pulls a gun, the officer can go directly to the last step in order to protect himself.  The threat does not have to be real, only percieved.  This perception is based on the reasonable man rule in court.  If a reasonable man, with the same training and experience as the officer, would see the threat in the same way as the officer, then it is considered reasonable for the officer to act to protect himself.  Last year a police officer shot a suspect who pointed a tazer at him.  Inexperienced people said the tazer was not deadly so why did the officer shoot him.  The officer shot him because in this case the outcome could very well be deadly for the officer.  If he is immobilized by a tazer, the suspect could easily take the officers gun and shoot him with it. That is a credible threat to the officer.  Mistakes are made.  Things happen fast in real life. An officer sometimes does not have time to determine whether or not the threat is real.  Would you expect an officer to have to wait for the bullet to arrive before determining whether the gun was real or not?  If the officer sees an object in a subjects hand, and he refuses to drop it when told and the officer percieves it to be a gun, and in fact it is not, it is a tragic mistake, but not the officers fault. The fault lies with the non compliant person.  Officers make mistakes. People have been killed by those mistakes, but sometimes mistakes result in an officers death as well.  More than one officer has been killed because he hesitated to take action, trying to be sure the threat was actually real. A subject does not have to be armed to be considered a threat to an officer.  A suspects size, weight, athletic skill, drugs, and other things vs the size, weight, athletic skill of the officer are considered.  If a female or small male officer is about to be attacked by an obviously larger, stronger attacker, the officers can take whatever measures are necessary to protect themselves.  Officers in these instances who are not convicted of a crime, do not get off because of a cover up.  They are not convicted because they acted, to the best of their ability, in accordance with the law.

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Well put officer Bird. And thank you very much for your dedication and sacrifice for the betterment of society. It's a tough job...and lots of us are still very appreciative that some men and women have the guts to step into the shoes of a police officer. Blue Lives Matter! 

latigo1 - Posted - 03/13/2021:  19:59:31

quote:

---

Originally posted by Owen

Dave, that's ^^ all well and good, but I can't find the answer to my question.  My simple, straightforward question has nothing to do with protocols, the level of threat [either real or perceived], the respective sizes or athletic abilities of the officer and the suspect, etc., etc., etc.  [I thought "..does NOT threaten the officer" was fairly clear.]

However, I notice you did ask a question of me: "Would you expect an officer to have to wait for the bullet to arrive before determining whether the gun was real or not?" How 'bout we make a deal.... toot-de-sweet after you answer my question I'll answer yours???   

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Here is your question: " should the outcome [i.e. get shot] be the same for a dude who disobeys AND threatens an officer as it is for the dude who disobeys an officer, but does NOT threaten the officer? "   My answer was in the third sentences of my response.   "Police can use deadly force only when they percieve an act is about to take place that will cause them, or some other person, serious injury or death".  I thought that should make it clear that someone who is not a threat should not be shot.

Owen - Posted - 03/13/2021:  20:53:56

Fair enough Dave, although I must be dumber than I look.  However, you eventually get around to  "... someone who is not a threat should not be shot," and I thank you for that. [Although on reflection I realize I should have asked whether the same out come (i.e. being shot) was acceptable in both situations.... but.... live and learn, I suppose.]

Here's a link to a Canadian incident from some time back.... 1988.   ajic.mb.ca/volumelll/chapter2.html   It makes interesting reading for anyone thinking simply that "officers make mistakes," and that there was no cover up [i.e. at least attempted initially].  More recently, in northern Alberta an officer arrived on scene where other officers had the situation well in hand, jumped from his cruiser and punched the detainee a few times.  I don't keep a tally of instances of police wrong-doing, but reports surface with troubling regularity.... and I think it's a safe bet that a far greater proportion of the less egregious ones fly under the radar than get reported, although I have no stats on that.

I think I've made it amply clear that I think police should be given a reasonable benefit of the doubt. I'm willing to alter my thinking should somebody present compelling info that my stance is out of whack, but so far, I'm still waiting.

As a man who tries to live up to his word, my answer to your question is "no."  

Edited by - Owen on 03/13/2021 20:59:00

jan dupree - Posted - 03/13/2021:  21:34:03

quote:

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Originally posted by overhere

quote:

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Originally posted by BanjoLink

quote:

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Originally posted by gdhillard

Not at all.

Sorry ..... fooled me.  I guess you have not been paying attention to the crime rates in areas that have called for the abolishment of police.  Quite frankly, In my neck of the woods we would not probably be affected too much, but the places that need it most (inner cities in large towns) will continue to be devastated.

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...and those areas are starting to wake up and the ones who de-funded are now RE-funding in order to help stem the crime rise.....I love the ones who pull percentages like 50% of fall cops are bad 25% are good 25% are eh!....dont watch the news ,watch your neighborhoods and be thankfull you dont live where there aint no cops.

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Pasco County is a semi-Rural low crime County in Central FL. The People who were victims of that Law Enforcement Agency were not committing Crimes. They were set upon by Criminal Law Enforcement Officers out of control. Which shows it can happen to anybody anywhere. Check out the Criminal Cops who rob people on I-40 in Tennessee. youtu.be/vMMZiyR-wxc  youtu.be/mevVt5sHDNA  youtu.be/gI3hHVcIcdY youtu.be/bMVIdA3UEcU youtu.be/rJd4Q4u5cqU  I lived in Miami for 50 years, I stand by those percentages.

Edited by - jan dupree on 03/13/2021 21:36:54

overhere - Posted - 03/14/2021:  03:26:18

quote:

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Originally posted by jan dupree

quote:

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Originally posted by overhere

quote:

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Originally posted by BanjoLink

quote:

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Originally posted by gdhillard

Not at all.

Sorry ..... fooled me.  I guess you have not been paying attention to the crime rates in areas that have called for the abolishment of police.  Quite frankly, In my neck of the woods we would not probably be affected too much, but the places that need it most (inner cities in large towns) will continue to be devastated.

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...and those areas are starting to wake up and the ones who de-funded are now RE-funding in order to help stem the crime rise.....I love the ones who pull percentages like 50% of fall cops are bad 25% are good 25% are eh!....dont watch the news ,watch your neighborhoods and be thankfull you dont live where there ain't no cops.

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Pasco County is a semi-Rural low crime County in Central FL. The People who were victims of that Law Enforcement Agency were not committing Crimes. They were set upon by Criminal Law Enforcement Officers out of control. Which shows it can happen to anybody anywhere. Check out the Criminal Cops who rob people on I-40 in Tennessee. youtu.be/vMMZiyR-wxc  youtu.be/mevVt5sHDNA  youtu.be/gI3hHVcIcdY youtu.be/bMVIdA3UEcU youtu.be/rJd4Q4u5cqU  I lived in Miami for 50 years, I stand by those percentages.

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I'm more concerned with what the terrorists are doing right now in Portland and all the other cities they destroy the innocent business owners and their families  with the destruction that robbing them of American freedoms.....all because of the defunding and anti American exaggeration towards police. I suggest that where you should be concentrating also .... there's bad in everything....bad cops, bad preists, bad doctors,bad news people,bad politicians, bad librarians, bad garbage men....bad bad guys......bad dogs......etc .....its life....no such thing as a perfect world and and it will take more than in-perfect humans to make it perfect. perfection is a sickness.....but you know something....we live in a country that heals its wounds because we have the freedom to do so.

gradelyduck - Posted - 03/14/2021:  03:49:35

My late father used to say, the difference between police and a burglar is the uniform. He was an intolerant cynic.

jan dupree - Posted - 03/14/2021:  11:35:59

msn.com/en-us/news/world/video...JJme6UbJ0 This a perfect example of somebody who craves power and attention, but is destined never to attain it. Probably never even had a good looking girl look at him his entire life, or whenever he walks in a room nobody even knows he is there. So he developes a dysfuntional and warped personality to compensate for it. So what better Profession is there to enable a sick mind like this to thrive, and being given some power over people and Animals, than one that has a badge, gun, and arrest powers. It's not all Cops, it's just the Profession draws sickos like in the article.

Edited by - jan dupree on 03/14/2021 11:38:09

latigo1 - Posted - 03/14/2021:  15:29:28

quote:

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Originally posted by jan dupree

msn.com/en-us/news/world/video...JJme6UbJ0 This a perfect example of somebody who craves power and attention, but is destined never to attain it. Probably never even had a good looking girl look at him his entire life, or whenever he walks in a room nobody even knows he is there. So he developes a dysfuntional and warped personality to compensate for it. So what better Profession is there to enable a sick mind like this to thrive, and being given some power over people and Animals, than one that has a badge, gun, and arrest powers. It's not all Cops, it's just the Profession draws sickos like in the article.

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Funny that by reading one article you can diagnose all the hangups this guy has, his bad life experiences,  and what he does to compensate.  For your information, almost every law enforcement agency in America requires a full background check of every applicant.  This encompasses his school teachers, previous employers, neighbors in every place they have lived, friends and previous spouses and partners, and anyone else that might be able to contribute information as to his attitude and demeanor. They also check for any criminal history. These agencies also require the applicant to take a full psychological exam which many applicants fail to pass.  It is called the MMPI.  It is a timed multiple choice test of approximately 500 questions and takes approximately 90 minutes to complete.  The test is given by a psychologist, many of whom add other psychological tests before evaluating the results.  If an applicant passes the MMPI and is hired, he must go through a field training program which on many agencies is another 400 or 500 hours.  The field training program is to give the applicant further training specific to that agency, and also weed out an applicant with any undesirable tendencies.  Nationwide, approximately 75% of applicants fail to pass this testing and never have a career as a law enforcement officer.  Of course no amount of testing is 100% effective in weeding out undesirable applicants, but most cops you see have been highly scrutinized before being hired.  To pick out one guy who abused his dog as an example of the type of "sicko" person who wants to become a law enforcement officer is simply foolish and insulting.

heruka - Posted - 03/14/2021:  16:39:27

quote:

---

Originally posted by AndrewD

quote:

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Originally posted by Texican65

I don't understand Mr. Hillard's comments about "being in the group police tend not to shoot", or "I guess the guys who think police are doing just fine are all white".



In 2017, 457 whites were killed by police, 223 blacks



In 2018, 399 whites were killed by police, 209 blacks



In 2019, 370 whites were killed by police, 235 blacks



In 2020, 432 whites were killed by police, 226 blacks



So far in 2021...34 whites have been killed by police, 16 blacks.



White people ARE being killed by police...



I'm not sure why this information is overlooked or blatantly disregarded. I guess because it doesn't fit the agenda.

---

We've had this one before. 13% of the US population is black. So if (2020 figures) 432 whites were killed we would expect about 30 blacks to be killed, not 226,  if race were not a factor.  Exactly why and where race is a factor is another argument. But presenting (again) these crude statistics as if they have any use or meaning doesn't really help.

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We would also expect the murder rate to coincide with population, but it doesn't..... Shut it. You know nothing of what goes on in america. Keep wonder why your own system is downplaying rapes and murders.... 

xx - Posted - 03/14/2021:  16:40:38

quote:

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Originally posted by Edthebanjo

 

By chalking it all up to the racism of the police you're doing nothing to solve the problem. You're just misdiagnosing it. And specifically misdiagnosing it in such a way that, by proclaiming your own anti-racism, and blaming a system over which you have no controll, you're able to sit back and feel good about yourself whilst doing the square root of bugger all.

 

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You are so correct Ed.  If only the problem was as simple as racism it would be great.....but it's not....and as you say, the problem is miss diagnosed, and therefor unlikely to ever go away.....

jan dupree - Posted - 03/14/2021:  16:48:57

quote:

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Originally posted by latigo1

quote:

---

Originally posted by jan dupree

msn.com/en-us/news/world/video...JJme6UbJ0 This a perfect example of somebody who craves power and attention, but is destined never to attain it. Probably never even had a good looking girl look at him his entire life, or whenever he walks in a room nobody even knows he is there. So he developes a dysfuntional and warped personality to compensate for it. So what better Profession is there to enable a sick mind like this to thrive, and being given some power over people and Animals, than one that has a badge, gun, and arrest powers. It's not all Cops, it's just the Profession draws sickos like in the article.

---

Funny that by reading one article you can diagnose all the hangups this guy has, his bad life experiences,  and what he does to compensate.  For your information, almost every law enforcement agency in America requires a full background check of every applicant.  This encompasses his school teachers, previous employers, neighbors in every place they have lived, friends and previous spouses and partners, and anyone else that might be able to contribute information as to his attitude and demeanor. They also check for any criminal history. These agencies also require the applicant to take a full psychological exam which many applicants fail to pass.  It is called the MMPI.  It is a timed multiple choice test of approximately 500 questions and takes approximately 90 minutes to complete.  The test is given by a psychologist, many of whom add other psychological tests before evaluating the results.  If an applicant passes the MMPI and is hired, he must go through a field training program which on many agencies is another 400 or 500 hours.  The field training program is to give the applicant further training specific to that agency, and also weed out an applicant with any undesirable tendencies.  Nationwide, approximately 75% of applicants fail to pass this testing and never have a career as a law enforcement officer.  Of course no amount of testing is 100% effective in weeding out undesirable applicants, but most cops you see have been highly scrutinized before being hired.  To pick out one guy who abused his dog as an example of the type of "sicko" person who wants to become a law enforcement officer is simply foolish and insulting.

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There are Psychologists that offer Coaching Sessions on how to pass the MMPI. An Applicant with  undesirable tendencies, and Psychological defects can keep it hidden while going through Training and Probation Programs. I guess you missed the other Officer in the video who said, "It's OK, there are no Witnesses". And you missed the Tennessee I-40 Highway Robberies. 

Edthebanjo - Posted - 03/14/2021:  16:55:52

quote:

---

Originally posted by nakigreengrass

quote:

---

Originally posted by Edthebanjo

 

By chalking it all up to the racism of the police you're doing nothing to solve the problem. You're just misdiagnosing it. And specifically misdiagnosing it in such a way that, by proclaiming your own anti-racism, and blaming a system over which you have no controll, you're able to sit back and feel good about yourself whilst doing the square root of bugger all.

 

---

You are so correct Ed.  If only the problem was as simple as racism it would be great.....but it's not....and as you say, the problem is miss diagnosed, and therefor unlikely to ever go away.....

 

---

Exactly. If it was entirely due to racism, it would be easy to solve. But like everything in life it's way more complicated than that.

Another thing to remember is that nobody has actually agreed on what a solution would look like. So currently we're in a situation where we don't know what's going on, and we don't agree on where we should be, or how to get there. I suggest before sitting back and just calling it racism, we actually solve those three problems. Then we could make some progress.

Edited by - Edthebanjo on 03/14/2021 16:56:25

Owen - Posted - 03/14/2021:  17:07:57

quote:

---

Originally posted by overhere.

<snip> I'm more concerned with what the terrorists are doing right now in Portland and all the other cities they destroy the innocent business owners and their families  with the destruction that robbing them of American freedoms.....all because of the defunding and anti American exaggeration towards police.  <snip>

Living in Canada, I'm probably less-well informed than  some others, as I only get whatever news (?) from the USA that our Canadian national networks see fit to broadcast.   Nevertheless I've been wondering about stuff like ^^ for some time.  

Given that inertia is a formidable force, I wonder how it is that the issue of police conduct has been able to motivate such significant numbers.  I realize that some of the bad guys overhere refers to will be punks and assorted riff-raff with nothing better to do, but it seems to me that the Average Joe/Jane would have to feel quite strongly about an issue to be bothered enough to get his/her butt into the street to participate in a protest.  If something is inconsequential wouldn't they just ignore it like other matters that don't matter?   

Regarding exaggeration, I regularly post about how I feel the two extremes on almost all issues probably offset each other and should be given similar consideration.  However, given that number of people who appear interested in police conduct, and think change is in order, I have to wonder what the effects of both too little AND exaggerated publicity would be.   My logic says that, with too little coverage, nothing would happen, while with exaggerated coverage, something might happen. If an issue has merit,  wouldn't something generally be preferable to nothing? [Fwiw, I'm NOT condoning rioting and property destruction.] 

I was hopeful that by now there would be some commentary re. my link to the shooting of J. J. Harper and Jan's links to the role of police in asset forfeiture.   I consulted the all-knowing Google and it seems asset forfeiture is quite widespread, although not applied equally.  

gdhillard - Posted - 03/14/2021:  17:17:20

No response yet to the facts I cited either. The "back the blue" thing seems emotion-based and I'm not sure facts are of interest. The future of the US won't be decided on BHO, but there is a groundswell of support of BLM and the concerns of police violence in most parts of the country, although not in the traditional red states. In Vermont, public safety dollars are being more thoughtfully distributed, and community based oversight groups are being formed to bring the actions of the police more into line with what the taxpayers want for their dollars. Same in other blue states. I think we will be able to establish a thoughtful dialogue on what kind of public safety the people actually want in most parts of the country, and then the standards established there can help to define a more general public idea of what kind of protect and serve we want to establish. The US has moved towards a police state since Nixon/Agnew, and folks are starting to rethink what is acceptable in this country.

gdhillard - Posted - 03/14/2021:  17:26:29

"The United States has the highest incarceration rate in the world. This is despite the national incarceration rate being at its lowest in 20 years. About 25% of the world’s total prison population is in the United States, which holds about 2.19 million prisoners as of 2019 (1.38 million in federal and state prisons, 745,200 in jails)."

worldpopulationreview.com/stat...-by-state

gdhillard - Posted - 03/14/2021:  17:28:55

"American police killed 1,042 people in the past year. In Japan, the cops killed nobody. In the United Kingdom, just three people died during encounters with cops."

politico.com/newsletters/polit...nt-489447

gdhillard - Posted - 03/14/2021:  17:29:37

I'm pretty sure name-calling doesn't count as a response...

gdhillard - Posted - 03/14/2021:  17:40:21

I've lived in six states, including New Mexico, Colorado, Massachusettes, Virginia, Minnesota, and Vermont.

Actually 85% of white people killed are killed by another white person. More of those pesky facts.

truthorfiction.com/are-85-perc...te-crime/

Owen - Posted - 03/14/2021:  17:41:05

..... however I do have an apology and a retraction to make w.r.t. the incident in Northern Alberta, I mentioned a page back: officers did not have the situation well in-hand before the arrival of the officer who tackled/punched the dude being arrested.  Sorry for putting it out there without re-checking it. 

chuckv97 - Posted - 03/14/2021:  18:59:05

Mercy....

okbluegrassbanjopicker - Posted - 03/14/2021:  19:28:12

Heruka, stop it. 

I never expected to see a post like yours on this thread.

 This isn’t your site, and it isn’t mine either.

 We absolutely are NOT free to blast other members with profanity here. Facebook we are not.

 Dashed or starred-out swear words are not any less profane than spelled out in full.

 Sherry, Bill, Lynne, BanjoMikey, and definitely Eric won’t stand for it.

Edited by - okbluegrassbanjopicker on 03/14/2021 19:32:25

Edthebanjo - Posted - 03/14/2021:  19:54:39

quote:

---

Originally posted by jan dupree

quote:

---

Originally posted by Edthebanjo

But when you account for the fact that members of the black community are much more likely to be involved with crime, and come into contact with the police at a much higher rate than non-black citizens, it indicates that the problem is a lot deeper than simply police targeting members of one race.

---

They also commit 80% of the violent crime in this country according to FBI Statistics.

---

Can you give a link to that statistic please? That's a lot higher than I've read before - I've heard 50% as an upper estimate.

xx - Posted - 03/14/2021:  20:02:52

Here Ed.....It's pretty grim....particularly when clicking the rate icon ( crimes per 100,000 )

ojjdp.gov/ojstatbb/crime/ucr.a...rdoData=rquote:

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Edited by - xx on 03/14/2021 20:06:36

Edthebanjo - Posted - 03/14/2021:  20:23:36

quote:

---

Originally posted by nakigreengrass

Here Ed.....It's pretty grim....particularly when clicking the rate icon ( crimes per 100,000 )

ojjdp.gov/ojstatbb/crime/ucr.a...rdoData=rquote:

---

---

Ah but that's per 100k people in a group. That doesn't account for population differences. I mean, Jan implied that 13% of people were committing 80% of violent crimes. What these statistics show is that Black people commit violent offences at a 4x higher rate than white people. Those are different statistics.

xx - Posted - 03/14/2021:  21:04:09

quote:

---

Originally posted by Edthebanjo

quote:

---

Originally posted by nakigreengrass

Here Ed.....It's pretty grim....particularly when clicking the rate icon ( crimes per 100,000 )

ojjdp.gov/ojstatbb/crime/ucr.a...rdoData=rquote:

---

---

Ah but that's per 100k people in a group. That doesn't account for population differences. I mean, Jan implied that 13% of people were committing 80% of violent crimes. What these statistics show is that Black people commit violent offences at a 4x higher rate than white people. Those are different statistics.

---

I'm seeing that 12.2% ( African American population ) committed 36.734% of the violent crime. ( 2019 data )....in those stats.

Edthebanjo - Posted - 03/14/2021:  21:08:23

quote:

---

Originally posted by nakigreengrass

quote:

---

Originally posted by Edthebanjo

quote:

---

Originally posted by nakigreengrass

Here Ed.....It's pretty grim....particularly when clicking the rate icon ( crimes per 100,000 )

ojjdp.gov/ojstatbb/crime/ucr.a...rdoData=rquote:

---

---

Ah but that's per 100k people in a group. That doesn't account for population differences. I mean, Jan implied that 13% of people were committing 80% of violent crimes. What these statistics show is that Black people commit violent offences at a 4x higher rate than white people. Those are different statistics.

---

I'm seeing that 12.2% ( African American population ) committed 36.734% of the violent crime. ( 2019 data )....in those stats.

---

Yep that's what I'm seeing too... quite far off of the 80% Jan claimed, but still very significant statistically.

latigo1 - Posted - 03/14/2021:  21:35:57

In the last few weeks, maybe months, I have tried to post accurate information about standards, training, rules, hiring practices , enforcement methods, etc. in a civil, non argumentative manner. This is first hand information gleaned from my career in law enforcement. I have tried to pass it on so anyone interested could be better informed about law enforcement practices in America. I never said there were no bad cops and never defended bad cops. I did try to explain why some cops did what they did in certain situations, and tried to explain why in many instances no charges were filed when cops did something that some people thought was criminal, but was not. My posts were intended for anyone who was interested in factual information about American law enforcement practices, from someone who lived it. What I get back is arguments. Not arguments that my information is not factual, but arguments about how some cops get around the rules in order to abuse the average citizens they come in contact with and carry out their hate filled racial vendetta. There are approximately 700,000 law enforcement officers in the USA. my guess is that 20% are in supervisorial positions. That leaves 560,000 officers to actually carry out law enforcement in the streets. Now if each one of those officers has 2 citizen contacts a day, that is over a million contacts every day. I think 2 is probably way too low. I used to average 5 to 10 on a normal 10 hour shift, but lets just stick with the one million number. In the replies to my posts and the posts of a few others, people are posting their opinion about the low quality of people who want to get into law enforcement calling them dysfuctional people with warped personalities and sick minds. They cite examples of law enforcement abuse they find on the internet. Is it any wonder that out of a million events every day, it is possible to find a few that are questionable or even obviously an abuse of authority, especially since many people contacted become argumentative and even abusive towards the officer, even when there is no reason for it. Well I have tried to post info without becoming argumentative, but I am tired of the insults toward the people in my profession, the vast majority who are honest, hard working, people who are trying to do a job that is a service and benefit to thier community. I could post an argumentative reply to every argumentative response I see on this thread but am not going to waste my time. That is grammer school stuff.

Ron C - Posted - 03/14/2021:  22:21:25

Following on to what Mr. Bird said: In a 2018 publication, the U.S. Justice Department with the FBI published a special report "Contacts Between Police and the Public in 2015". (Contacts Between Police and the Public, 2015. Elizabeth Davis and Anthony Whyde, BJS Statisticians Lynn Langton, Ph.D., former BJS Statistician. Published October 2018. U.S. Department of Justice Office of Justice Programs Bureau of Justice Statistics Special Report.). There were 53.5 million contacts between police and people age 16 and above. That number varies each year between 53.5 million and 64 million contacts. Out of approximately 60 million contacts in a year, about 1000 people are killed by police. Of the 1000, about 230 are black.

Out of 60 million contacts, 0.0016% are killed by police. That should put some perspective into the frequency at which people are killed by police.

Of course we can ask how many of the police killings were justified. 87% of people shot by police were armed with their own weapon deployed. Of the 13% without their own weapons, the majority were struggling to gain control of the cop's gun. Data from U.S. Justice Dept./FBI Uniform Crime report 2016 with similar results in 2017.

Am I a police apologist? No, I am a person reporting the data as I find it. I learn with each report I read. Are there bad cops? Of course. In any group there will be irresponsible, corrupt, even evil individuals. Even the best vetting, interview processes and psychological tests will not identify every rogue individual. We all can point out incidences where a bad actor, in this case a cop, acts badly.

The job of a law enforcement officer, policeman or woman, cop, sheriff's deputy, trooper, constable, or whatever you want to call them, is to deal with the results of a failed penal system, disparity of wealth, lack of funding, space and care for mental health and so many other societal problems. 

I don't know that I could cope with the pressures of being a law enforcement officer. I am glad that there are some people willing to take that enormous responsibility.

Ron

Texican65 - Posted - 03/14/2021:  22:23:26

quote:

---

Originally posted by latigo1

In the last few weeks, maybe months, I have tried to post accurate information about standards, training, rules, hiring practices , enforcement methods, etc. in a civil, non argumentative manner. This is first hand information gleaned from my career in law enforcement. I have tried to pass it on so anyone interested could be better informed about law enforcement practices in America. I never said there were no bad cops and never defended bad cops. I did try to explain why some cops did what they did in certain situations, and tried to explain why in many instances no charges were filed when cops did something that some people thought was criminal, but was not. My posts were intended for anyone who was interested in factual information about American law enforcement practices, from someone who lived it. What I get back is arguments. Not arguments that my information is not factual, but arguments about how some cops get around the rules in order to abuse the average citizens they come in contact with and carry out their hate filled racial vendetta. There are approximately 700,000 law enforcement officers in the USA. my guess is that 20% are in supervisorial positions. That leaves 560,000 officers to actually carry out law enforcement in the streets. Now if each one of those officers has 2 citizen contacts a day, that is over a million contacts every day. I think 2 is probably way too low. I used to average 5 to 10 on a normal 10 hour shift, but lets just stick with the one million number. In the replies to my posts and the posts of a few others, people are posting their opinion about the low quality of people who want to get into law enforcement calling them dysfuctional people with warped personalities and sick minds. They cite examples of law enforcement abuse they find on the internet. Is it any wonder that out of a million events every day, it is possible to find a few that are questionable or even obviously an abuse of authority, especially since many people contacted become argumentative and even abusive towards the officer, even when there is no reason for it. Well I have tried to post info without becoming argumentative, but I am tired of the insults toward the people in my profession, the vast majority who are honest, hard working, people who are trying to do a job that is a service and benefit to thier community. I could post an argumentative reply to every argumentative response I see on this thread but am not going to waste my time. That is grammer school stuff.

---

Dave, the majority of the everyday, hardworking, honest, tax paying citizens who value integrity and dedication to community and country...appreciate the hard work and sacrifice of the police department. I for one, thank my lucky stars that we have brave men and women to fulfill the needs required to protect the good in society from the evils lurking around so many dangerous corners in life. 

Please don't let the sour attitudes of the misinformed and self-entitled, who are actually very few in the grand scheme of things, to deter you from feeling proud and honorable about your service  as a police officer. 



Again, thanks for having the guts to wear the uniform and badge. 

 

Dow

phb - Posted - 03/15/2021:  03:03:36

quote:

---

Originally posted by latigo1

quote:

---

Originally posted by jan dupree

It's not all Cops, it's just the Profession draws sickos like in the article.

---

If an applicant passes the MMPI and is hired, he must go through a field training program which on many agencies is another 400 or 500 hours.  The field training program is to give the applicant further training specific to that agency, and also weed out an applicant with any undesirable tendencies.  Nationwide, approximately 75% of applicants fail to pass this testing and never have a career as a law enforcement officer.

---

I edited away the joke I made because I realise (rather late) that this is not a subject for my weird sense of humour. My joke was about how your summary doesn't exactly seem to disapprove what Jan said when pulled out of the context you provided.

Edited by - phb on 03/15/2021 03:16:53

phb - Posted - 03/15/2021:  03:13:31

quote:

---

Originally posted by Edthebanjo

quote:

---

Originally posted by nakigreengrass

Here Ed.....It's pretty grim....particularly when clicking the rate icon ( crimes per 100,000 )

ojjdp.gov/ojstatbb/crime/ucr.a...rdoData=rquote:

---

---

Ah but that's per 100k people in a group. That doesn't account for population differences. I mean, Jan implied that 13% of people were committing 80% of violent crimes. What these statistics show is that Black people commit violent offences at a 4x higher rate than white people. Those are different statistics.

---

What you need to look at is crimes per 100k people in a certain income group and compare those across ethnicities.

Banjonewguy - Posted - 03/15/2021:  03:22:55

quote:

---

Originally posted by AndrewD

quote:

---

Originally posted by Edthebanjo

But when you account for the fact that members of the black community are much more likely to be involved with crime, and come into contact with the police at a much higher rate than non-black citizens, it indicates that the problem is a lot deeper than simply police targeting members of one race.

---

You live in a country where so few people are killed due to police action that they are individually listed on wikipedia. Why are you excusing another country's seeming policy of racially biased extra-judicial execution ? 

---

Because your description of "racially based extra-judicial execution" is just shy of pathetic. If it were anywhere near true, and killings were based on race, we would have thousands of black people killed by the police every year. Ed isn't excusing anything, merely stating a fact that people who usually make your argument conveniently like to leave out of the discussion.

Banjonewguy - Posted - 03/15/2021:  03:38:37

quote:

---

Originally posted by jan dupree

quote:

---

Originally posted by Edthebanjo

But when you account for the fact that members of the black community are much more likely to be involved with crime, and come into contact with the police at a much higher rate than non-black citizens, it indicates that the problem is a lot deeper than simply police targeting members of one race.

---

They also commit 80% of the violent crime in this country according to FBI Statistics.

---

Ummm, no they don't, according to FBI statistics. Go look at the FBI UCR, table 43, for the past 10 years. Black people account for just over 50% of all murders, and have for the last 10 or so years, and average 36 - 38% of all violent crime while white people account for between 58 and 60% of all violent crime and about 46 - 48% of all murders. That doesn't dismiss the fact that while white people are represented in violent crime at a rate commensurate to their population black people are represented at three times their population, but presenting "facts" that were pulled from a dark smelly area of ones body doesn't do anything to further any conversation.

Banjonewguy - Posted - 03/15/2021:  03:42:11

quote:

---

Originally posted by nakigreengrass

Here Ed.....It's pretty grim....particularly when clicking the rate icon ( crimes per 100,000 )

ojjdp.gov/ojstatbb/crime/ucr.a...rdoData=rquote:

---

---

The rates per 100,000 don't give you the percentages Jan stated. I agree the rates per 100,000 are way high, but to get the actual percentages you must use raw numbers of crimes and then factor in offender data.

Texasbanjo - Posted - 03/15/2021:  04:44:46

Okay, that's enough. I've hidden several posts that are getting political and several posts that use words not allowed on the Hangout and several posts that are name calling and nasty.

Please, let's stay civil and try to act adult.

I've PMd some members who are causing the problem and if the problem continues those members will have a time out. If the discussion continues to go south, it will be locked.

It's okay to disagree, but let's do it in a civil way, please.

Banjonewguy - Posted - 03/15/2021:  07:13:37

quote:

---

Originally posted by gdhillard

I've lived in six states, including New Mexico, Colorado, Massachusettes, Virginia, Minnesota, and Vermont.



Actually 85% of white people killed are killed by another white person. More of those pesky facts.



truthorfiction.com/are-85-perc...te-crime/

---

And 94% of black people are killed by other black people. Nothing new here. How is a "fact" pesky when that "fact" isn't even part of the discussion? The fact that 85% or 94% are killed by members of the same race has nothing to do with someone's life experience. They may have seen more interracial crime based on where they live, population differences in the area, or any number of other factors. In inner cities where more minorities live than white people it is entirely possible that a white person sees more interracial murder whereas someone who lives out in the country where very few minorities may live would see much less interracial murder. You own stats reveal that interracial murder against whites is about 10% more frequent than the other way around so you really didn't even disprove what was said.