okbluegrassbanjopicker - Posted - 03/11/2021:  04:44:53

There are so many false narratives and a lot of stories that persons have used to twist the meaning of “policeman” into “hyper killing machine/unthinking/uncaring individual with a power trip.” 

 We forget bravery, and side with the “majority,” because we don’t want to be “intolerant.”

 That is nothing more than compromise.

This morning, I read about a very commendable (albeit fatal) act of the highest honor, and had to share it.

theblaze.com/news/decorated-po...aily%20AM

It really drives home the point that we do owe it to our law enforcement for the service they perform and for keeping our cities safe from those who say they “matter,” but proceed to burn up dwellings and businesses of the VERY PERSONS who are supposedly “benefiting” from that cause!

 I am 100 percent in favor of policemen who do what they are trained to do, but in no way does the badge give any officer or chief the authority to use their power in a way that is contrary to the oath they took when first admitted to the job. 

Edited by - okbluegrassbanjopicker on 03/11/2021 04:49:07

Banjonewguy - Posted - 03/11/2021:  04:55:25

I don't think the "majority" are against the police. I think, like in most other things, the loudest mouth that is closest to a camera gets the attention. Having said that, I will say that the biggest issue I have seen when it comes to actual police misconduct is the blue wall of silence. Many of these officers who have done legitimate wrong things usually have a history of questionable behavior that never seems to come out until they do something really bad. Other cops know about these people and when they don't say anything it makes them all look bad. I will also say that the ongoing militarization of the police forces across the country doesn't help either. You know what they say about what happens when you see the world as a nail and all.

There is also a huge problem with controlling the narrative from the get-go. As soon as something happens involving a cop they are blasted in the media as being in the wrong and after the investigation is complete, which is usually after their reputation has been ruined through the court of public opinion, most of the time it turns out that their story was valid from the beginning. I won't get into specifics because that will cause a thread lock, but they are out there if people want to look them up.

Edthebanjo - Posted - 03/11/2021:  05:11:32

I think the police in America have had it really rough over the last few years, especially recently what with all the rioting and stuff. Its my opinion that there are far fewer "bad eggs" so to speak than there are genuinely decent people.

I'll be interested to follow this story as it develops though... I feel like the details are too vague just from that article. My first thought when I read the text was that swerving into oncoming traffic seemed irresponsible, then I watched the video, and sort of changed my mind a bit. I don't know... needs more details.

Banjonewguy - Posted - 03/11/2021:  05:27:44

quote:

---

Originally posted by Edthebanjo

I think the police in America have had it really rough over the last few years, especially recently what with all the rioting and stuff. Its my opinion that there are far fewer "bad eggs" so to speak than there are genuinely decent people.



I'll be interested to follow this story as it develops though... I feel like the details are too vague just from that article. My first thought when I read the text was that swerving into oncoming traffic seemed irresponsible, then I watched the video, and sort of changed my mind a bit. I don't know... needs more details.

---

Ed, That's the problem though. While police have to do time consuming things like investigate and find actual facts, their detractors are already in front of a camera shaping the narrative before the broken car parts even stop spinning. By the time factual investigatory findings and analysis of all of the physical and forensic evidence is ready to be published, the initial narrative has been on the street for weeks or even months. Anything to the contrary of what people have been fed through mass and social media is looked on as a cover-up or that the police are obviously lying.

We do have bad eggs in our police forces, but you are correct: there are more genuine officers out there trying to do their jobs than there are bad eggs. The problem is, when all you are fed are stories trying to point them all out as bad eggs, eventually many people are going to start believing that they are all bad.

phb - Posted - 03/11/2021:  05:29:47

quote:

---

Originally posted by okbluegrassbanjopicker

There are so many false narratives and a lot of stories that persons have used to twist the meaning of “policeman” into “hyper killing machine/unthinking/uncaring individual with a power trip.” 

 We forget bravery, and side with the “majority,” because we don’t want to be “intolerant.”

So you are saying that just because of some bad individuals in the group, the whole group gets blamed. And then you go on:

It really drives home the point that we do owe it to our law enforcement for the service they perform and for keeping our cities safe from those who say they “matter,” but proceed to burn up dwellings and businesses 

---

Edthebanjo - Posted - 03/11/2021:  05:33:22

quote:

---

Originally posted by Banjonewguy

quote:

---

Originally posted by Edthebanjo

I think the police in America have had it really rough over the last few years, especially recently what with all the rioting and stuff. Its my opinion that there are far fewer "bad eggs" so to speak than there are genuinely decent people.



I'll be interested to follow this story as it develops though... I feel like the details are too vague just from that article. My first thought when I read the text was that swerving into oncoming traffic seemed irresponsible, then I watched the video, and sort of changed my mind a bit. I don't know... needs more details.

---

Ed, That's the problem though. While police have to do time consuming things like investigate and find actual facts, their detractors are already in front of a camera shaping the narrative before the broken car parts even stop spinning. By the time factual investigatory findings and analysis of all of the physical and forensic evidence is ready to be published, the initial narrative has been on the street for weeks or even months. Anything to the contrary of what people have been fed through mass and social media is looked on as a cover-up or that the police are obviously lying.

We do have bad eggs in our police forces, but you are correct: there are more genuine officers out there trying to do their jobs than there are bad eggs. The problem is, when all you are fed are stories trying to point them all out as bad eggs, eventually many people are going to start believing that they are all bad.

---

Exactly, I completely agree with everything you've said here! The news is much more concerned with reporting on something as soon as possible, and using knee-jerk opinions in place of fact, so that once the fact emerges, it doesn't matter - the story has already been decided upon.

The phrase I hate most in news broadcasting is "Now lets go to the general public for their opinions...".

Edited by - Edthebanjo on 03/11/2021 05:35:10

1935tb-11 - Posted - 03/11/2021:  05:43:01

until we walk in his/her shoes its opinion,,, my nephew is been working under cover recently and said it was a total eye opener for him,,, and the new ban on no knock law is gonna get some good police hurt or killed. his first nite on duty he was involved in a search warrant serve and 4 9mm shots came through the door... he told me he could fell his heartbeat in the souls of his feet. after back up and surround the house the guy gave up,,, this is just 1 case,,, how many do they have daily across the country ?
not a job i would want,,, like running into a burning house or building ,,,which our step son does ...

gdhillard - Posted - 03/11/2021:  06:03:39

Not a fan of the cops. I'm a 65 year old white guy, so I'm in the group they tend to not shoot, and I have no record of arrests. But watching the BLM protests, and the astonishing level of police brutality offered up in response has really opened my eyes to seeing the police as a problem rather than a resource. Seeing cops involved in the insurrection attempt on Jan 6 was a reminder as well. These are guys with almost no training who use force because they have little else to offer. Thugs and bullies, much of the time. I'm not a fan, and want our public safety money -my tax dollars- spent on something that actually makes the community safer, as have been recently done in several communities. Hiring people with social work and nursing degrees to respond to a community crisis is so much safer, and better.

And don't give me that line about "who will you call?" I'm 65, and have called the cops twice in my life. Once they made it marginally better. The other time, they made it much worse. And I live out in the mountains, where the response time is over an hour, anyway. I keep myself safe, and won't call the cops again, ever. Defund these guys, and hire people who actually have their act together.

1935tb-11 - Posted - 03/11/2021:  06:12:50

quote:

---

Originally posted by gdhillard

Not a fan of the cops. I'm a 65 year old white guy, so I'm in the group they tend to not shoot, and I have no record of arrests. But watching the BLM protests, and the astonishing level of police brutality offered up in response has really opened my eyes to seeing the police as a problem rather than a resource. Seeing cops involved in the insurrection attempt on Jan 6 was a reminder as well. These are guys with almost no training who use force because they have little else to offer. Thugs and bullies, much of the time. I'm not a fan, and want our public safety money -my tax dollars- spent on something that actually makes the community safer, as have been recently done in several communities. Hiring people with social work and nursing degrees to respond to a community crisis is so much safer, and better.



And don't give me that line about "who will you call?" I'm 65, and have called the cops twice in my life. Once they made it marginally better. The other time, they made it much worse. And I live out in the mountains, where the response time is over an hour, anyway. I keep myself safe, and won't call the cops again, ever. Defund these guys, and hire people who actually have their act together.

---

shoot'em and burying them in the woods.. whos gonna know?   an hour for response time,,you on your own anyway,, shoot first then ask questions...

BanjoLink - Posted - 03/11/2021:  06:45:54

quote:

---

Originally posted by gdhillard

Not a fan of the cops. I'm a 65 year old white guy, so I'm in the group they tend to not shoot, and I have no record of arrests. But watching the BLM protests, and the astonishing level of police brutality offered up in response has really opened my eyes to seeing the police as a problem rather than a resource. Seeing cops involved in the insurrection attempt on Jan 6 was a reminder as well. These are guys with almost no training who use force because they have little else to offer. Thugs and bullies, much of the time. I'm not a fan, and want our public safety money -my tax dollars- spent on something that actually makes the community safer, as have been recently done in several communities. Hiring people with social work and nursing degrees to respond to a community crisis is so much safer, and better.



And don't give me that line about "who will you call?" I'm 65, and have called the cops twice in my life. Once they made it marginally better. The other time, they made it much worse. And I live out in the mountains, where the response time is over an hour, anyway. I keep myself safe, and won't call the cops again, ever. Defund these guys, and hire people who actually have their act together.

---

Is this post a spoof?

gdhillard - Posted - 03/11/2021:  06:50:43

Not at all.

BanjoLink - Posted - 03/11/2021:  07:06:47

quote:

---

Originally posted by gdhillard

Not at all.

Sorry ..... fooled me.  I guess you have not been paying attention to the crime rates in areas that have called for the abolishment of police.  Quite frankly, In my neck of the woods we would not probably be affected too much, but the places that need it most (inner cities in large towns) will continue to be devastated.

latigo1 - Posted - 03/11/2021:  07:08:27

quote:

---

Originally posted by gdhillard

Not a fan of the cops. I'm a 65 year old white guy, so I'm in the group they tend to not shoot, and I have no record of arrests. But watching the BLM protests, and the astonishing level of police brutality offered up in response has really opened my eyes to seeing the police as a problem rather than a resource. Seeing cops involved in the insurrection attempt on Jan 6 was a reminder as well. These are guys with almost no training who use force because they have little else to offer. Thugs and bullies, much of the time. I'm not a fan, and want our public safety money -my tax dollars- spent on something that actually makes the community safer, as have been recently done in several communities. Hiring people with social work and nursing degrees to respond to a community crisis is so much safer, and better.



And don't give me that line about "who will you call?" I'm 65, and have called the cops twice in my life. Once they made it marginally better. The other time, they made it much worse. And I live out in the mountains, where the response time is over an hour, anyway. I keep myself safe, and won't call the cops again, ever. Defund these guys, and hire people who actually have their act together.

---

What have you been watching?  I have not seen any police brutality in response to the BLM demonstrations or the riots that they develop  into.  What I have seen is rows of police officers using their shields to protect thier heads from the barrage of thrown rocks and bricks coming their way.  I have seen police letting these thugs take over their departments rather than use force to protect them.  I have seen police letting these demonstrators close down entire busy freeways rather than use force to keep traffic moving.  I have seen police stand back and let the demonstrators take over entire business districts, looting and burning, sometimes for months, rather than use force to protect the business owners of these districts.  I have seen police leaving their police cars to be smashed and burned rather than drive violently through a mob of demonstrators.  I could go on and on, but you seem to have already decided that you will protect yourself instead of calling the police.  I guess that would include a violent act on your part if it seemed necessary but why would that be OK for you, but not OK for a police officer.

1935tb-11 - Posted - 03/11/2021:  07:17:41

quote:

---

Originally posted by BanjoLink

quote:

---

Originally posted by gdhillard

Not at all.

Sorry ..... fooled me.  I guess you have not been paying attention to the crime rates in areas that have called for the abolishment of police.  Quite frankly, In my neck of the woods we would not probably be affected too much, but the places that need it most (inner cities in large towns) will continue to be devastated.

---

i thought he was kiddin too,, but he ain't ,,, wild wild west man,,,shoot'em all !!!!!

Richard Hauser - Posted - 03/11/2021:  07:21:28

As in many other cases, individuals determining policies have no working experience in the profession they are regulating. Their actions often seem to be more damage control than correcting a problem.

The news agencies do not provide detailed information about incidents. In addition, some important incidents about a subject get very little. if any, exposure on news channels. I sometime learn about events here on BHO that should have been newsworthy.

gdhillard - Posted - 03/11/2021:  07:25:54

I did the night shift, emergency community mental health work for 15 years. Suicide prevention, drug and alcohol screening, domestic violence interventions, child abuse extractions. I went in armed with a master's degree, a two-year internship, and lots of additional training. No gun, no club, no tazer, no pepper spray. I never lost a client, never shot anyone, and never shot their dog. I didn't beat people up, threaten them, or confiscate cash and drugs from them. I didn't molest vulnerable people. I got hit some, going through 7 pairs of glasses, which the agency was kind enough to replace each time. But I never lost my temper, and always worked for the benefit of the person in front of me. Cops are ill trained, and emotionally ill-suited to high stress work. Cops are much more likely than the general population to batter their partners, and abuse their kids. They have more of a problem with self destructive behaviors as well, such as suicide and alcohol and drug dependence. Many have made a poor transition from oppressing a civilian population in the military to being responsible for community safety, and come to the job seeing the civilian as the bad guy. The track record of cops in the US is terrible, and their response to being called out as violent and out of control has been to become more violent and out of control. We need to do something different.

gdhillard - Posted - 03/11/2021:  07:30:08

fatherly.com/love-money/police...violence/

gdhillard - Posted - 03/11/2021:  07:31:21

hazeldenbettyford.org/educatio...ce-ru-716

gdhillard - Posted - 03/11/2021:  07:32:55

pbs.org/newshour/nation/police...-suicides

banjo bill-e - Posted - 03/11/2021:  07:57:25

Here is a current measure of the level of support for defunding the police    Poll: USA TODAY        

Please notice the levels of support across political, social, and racial lines. 

latigo1 - Posted - 03/11/2021:  08:13:09

quote:

---

Originally posted by gdhillard

I did the night shift, emergency community mental health work for 15 years. Suicide prevention, drug and alcohol screening, domestic violence interventions, child abuse extractions. I went in armed with a master's degree, a two-year internship, and lots of additional training. No gun, no club, no tazer, no pepper spray. I never lost a client, never shot anyone, and never shot their dog. I didn't beat people up, threaten them, or confiscate cash and drugs from them. I didn't molest vulnerable people. I got hit some, going through 7 pairs of glasses, which the agency was kind enough to replace each time. But I never lost my temper, and always worked for the benefit of the person in front of me. Cops are ill trained, and emotionally ill-suited to high stress work. Cops are much more likely than the general population to batter their partners, and abuse their kids. They have more of a problem with self destructive behaviors as well, such as suicide and alcohol and drug dependence. Many have made a poor transition from oppressing a civilian population in the military to being responsible for community safety, and come to the job seeing the civilian as the bad guy. The track record of cops in the US is terrible, and their response to being called out as violent and out of control has been to become more violent and out of control. We need to do something different.

---

Congratulations on your success. As a police officer, usually working the weekend night shift, I worked alongside many emergency community mental health care workers.  They also did many things like what you describe.  They also worked for the benefit of the person and never lost their temper, or molested anyone either.  BUT, when they were confronted by a violent, out of control, person bent on harming someone, they always called the cops, and we would respond to clean up their mess.  Unfortunately, sometimes it would be necessary to use force to insure the safety of others.  It is no fun to have to enter the day room where an out of control person is breaking furniture, while the health care workers are all huddled in the safe room.

brententz - Posted - 03/11/2021:  08:33:08

Just watched a youtube video last night where 2 cops were helping a victim of domestic violence get some things from the house. Everyone thought the perp was gone but without warning the guy came flying thru the door and shot both cops while trying to shoot his wife or girlfriend. Cops lived..girl lived. Cops saved her life. So tell me how a social worker would have faired? I'll wait.

brententz - Posted - 03/11/2021:  08:48:09

Pretty much all of the well known incidents involving police being accused of abusing their power have all started with someone screwing around and being suspicious and certainly not being "above reproach". Can't remember the last time i heard of a guy changing his tire in front of his home..or dad helping kids set up lemonade stand..jumped by cops and tazed. Guess what? If your all about helping others as you should be and not being all suspicious and hanging out with the wrong crowd no matter what color you are guess what? You dont get your head sat on by a cop! Bottom line. We have a culture that wants to blame cops and everyone else for our own BAD decisions. No sympathy here!

brententz - Posted - 03/11/2021:  09:00:37

And believe me..Gd Hillard.when you get pinned in a car wreck and the county mounty is the first on the scene (which they usually are) you will not tell him to keep moving along. I too can defend my own home out here in the country but i got kids on the roads so i'll take the cops all day long.

Owen - Posted - 03/11/2021:  09:14:32

quote:

---

Originally posted by brententz

We have a culture that wants to blame cops and everyone else for our own BAD decisions.

---

I acknowledge that media gives us plenty of slanted reporting, but where's my bad decision in this? https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/lethbridge-police-service-search-photograph-mla-shannon-phillips-1.5932495

Fwiw, some of us are wanting police to be reasonable and accountable [kinda like anybody else in a position of leadership and authority]......  light years away from wanting to blame them.

Edit: Like the old broken record says: Not everything in life is all-or-nothing. 

Edited by - Owen on 03/11/2021 09:19:04

brententz - Posted - 03/11/2021:  09:56:32

Never once said cops doing bad things shouldnt be held accountable did I? My point which was clearly made was IF most people would behave in the first place they wouldnt get sat on by police. Never said it wouldnt happen. Authority will ALWAYS overstep its bounds at some point. Not justifying it..its just a sad fact of a fallen world. It's very foolish for people to demand perfection from the cops while MOST people who get in trouble and have caught the eye of a cop are not teaching sunday school
but USUALLY are up to no good. I'll revise my statement for clarity...We live in a culture that largely wants to blame someone else, in this case cops, for OUR own bad decisions. No not everyone but a lotta lotta people.

brententz - Posted - 03/11/2021:  10:11:00

Also if you read my 2nd post i began by saying "pretty much every incident where a cop was accused of abusing power". Didnt say "ALL", and for good reason. Nothings ever All or nothing right?

Owen - Posted - 03/11/2021:  10:41:49

I don't disagree that: "We live in a culture that largely wants to blame someone else, in this case cops, for OUR own bad decisions. No not everyone but a lotta lotta people."   BUT there's also a lotta lotta people who absolve the police of any/all wrongdoing regardless of what actually happens.   I suspect the extremes are pretty much in balance. 

In your post, you also go on about lemonade stands, changing tires, etc..... not something that leads me to taking somebody particularly seriously.   You also mention about people "getting sat on," so I suppose I'm expected to limit my comments to those particular instances, and am off base in bringing up any other instances of police wrong-doing.  [Did you check the link about the Lethbridge police?]

For a good part of my life I figured w.r.t integrity, the police generally reflected the society from which it's members are chosen, but with a "boost" over run-of-the-mill citizens due to the selection process and training that they get.   Over the last few decades I've come to think that what I'd thought should be a boost is actually a negative factor  [somebody previously mentioned  the wall of silence], so now my regard for the police in general has essentially flip-flopped.   C'est la vie!

Edited by - Owen on 03/11/2021 10:46:44

Good Buddy - Posted - 03/11/2021:  10:43:12

Police are overworked and underpaid and wear way too many hats. There are definitely bad cops but there are many many more good ones. Bad ones are always in the news because that's what sells. One thing that can help, is to get rid of the mentality that one cop has to side with his partner no matter what. That only implicates both of them. But all in all, cops do a great job and don't deserve all the grief they get.

Edited by - Good Buddy on 03/11/2021 10:43:49

okbluegrassbanjopicker - Posted - 03/11/2021:  10:46:52

I am absolutely NOT in favor of:

Defunding cops. HORRIBLE idea.

Having a “vigilante” system where citizens take the law into their own hands and make a secondary or “better” justice procedure that doesn’t conform to United States law. Vigilante groups are not the answer. Anything that falls out of the classification of US law, is no law. 

I believe that:

 Cops are no less human than any person here.

 Given the (wrong) situation, a sane human can make JUST AS WRONG of a decision as a policeman that is on or off duty. 

Cops do a BETTER job of protecting when their chief or supervisor sets a high standard of discretion and a model of calm responsiveness in stress. 

Cops WILL definitely “get you” if you break the law. In some unfortunate cases, they “got” persons who in fact were NOT breaking the law. 

I believe cops are 100 percent essential for our civilization to function properly.

 Anyone who thinks otherwise just doesn’t get it.

 I know that might be harsh, but the men in blue DO serve a purpose, and that purpose should be lauded and commended.

Edited by - okbluegrassbanjopicker on 03/11/2021 10:48:11

gdhillard - Posted - 03/11/2021:  11:21:22

I'm not out to convince anyone here. The data is out there on the problems police tend to have, and the alternatives of using professions instead of having a heavily armed, largely untrained person respond to public safety issues. I will note that as a rural mental health worker, there was no "huddled in the safe room" for me and my co-workers. The cops were often unavailable, and we didn't tend to call them anyway. I talked when I could, and wrestled when I had to.

The idea that victims of police violence were somehow asking for it sounds a lot like other blame the victim responses you hear regarding sexual assault and domestic violence. I think most of that blame the victem stuff comes from thinking, "If I haven't had a problem, there must not be a problem". I'm guessing the guys here who think the police are doing just fine are all white guys. Breonna Taylor was home, asleep in her bed.

Other countries are doing this better than we are, and some cities are moving towards shifting funds from police offers to better trained professionals. The early stat look pretty good for that change.

GrahamHawker - Posted - 03/11/2021:  11:43:51

quote:

---

Originally posted by latigo1

---

What have you been watching?  I have not seen any police brutality in response to the BLM demonstrations or the riots that they develop  into.

---

Which proves the point that people will only see what they want to see.

Bill Rogers - Posted - 03/11/2021:  13:44:56

youtube.com/watch?v=1B_2nGxCHQY

Paul R - Posted - 03/11/2021:  14:02:53

I'm a staunch supporter of unions, but ... food for thought.

newyorker.com/news/news-desk/h...se-abuses

newyorker.com/podcast/the-new-...ce-unions

newyorker.com/magazine/2020/08...ht-reform

okbluegrassbanjopicker - Posted - 03/12/2021:  05:22:26

The following article covering a Nov. 2020 incident, proves one member’s point about policemen not properly handling stress.

 This grievous misappropriation of deadly force need not have happened. There was NO justification for that force. Every policeman jumped to the same wrong conclusion and reacted as if the would-be robber was some kind of terrorist. The victim had NO idea of the ensuing shots. He could not have expected the policemen to do what they did.

 Wearing the badge does NOT give the policeman the right to murder!

theblaze.com/news/5-police-off...aily%20AM

Edited by - okbluegrassbanjopicker on 03/12/2021 05:27:10

phb - Posted - 03/12/2021:  06:01:07

quote:

---

Originally posted by okbluegrassbanjopicker

I am absolutely NOT in favor of:

Defunding cops. HORRIBLE idea.

Having a “vigilante” system where citizens take the law into their own hands and make a secondary or “better” justice procedure that doesn’t conform to United States law. Vigilante groups are not the answer. Anything that falls out of the classification of US law, is no law. 

 

I believe that:

 Cops are no less human than any person here.

 Given the (wrong) situation, a sane human can make JUST AS WRONG of a decision as a policeman that is on or off duty. 

Cops do a BETTER job of protecting when their chief or supervisor sets a high standard of discretion and a model of calm responsiveness in stress. 

Cops WILL definitely “get you” if you break the law. In some unfortunate cases, they “got” persons who in fact were NOT breaking the law. 

I believe cops are 100 percent essential for our civilization to function properly.

 Anyone who thinks otherwise just doesn’t get it.

 I know that might be harsh, but the men in blue DO serve a purpose, and that purpose should be lauded and commended.

---

I agree with all of that. I think that something so important should get more funds which should be used for a) better payment to be more attractive to more candidates and b) better, much longer and repeated training (and by that I don't mean shooting).

1935tb-11 - Posted - 03/12/2021:  06:04:05

name any profession that does not have bad apples.....you can't

when lead is flying by your head its a whole new ball game.

and most of the shootings or mis conduct that has made it to the evening news were totally uncalled for abuse of power and wreckless actions which should be punished.

and if the police need to be trained in all aspects of public contact ,, where is the money going to come from if it is defunded?

i agree a short stint in the academy is not enough.. nephew took four years of college training in psychology and forensics and decided to go into public service like his dad. my stepson has been in the FD since the age of 14 and since then gotten 28 certifications and EMT and worked his way up to captain and is now a trainer for new recruits.

but too defund and expect more,,,,don't see it. and the stress these inner city cops deal with is beyond anything i can imagine.    we have had 13 officers killed his year so far by either assault,,stabbing or gunfire.  5  more ran down by vehicles.

Edited by - 1935tb-11 on 03/12/2021 06:10:58

BanjoLink - Posted - 03/12/2021:  07:15:56

It is easy to take a few anecdotal incidences that either never should have happened, taken out of context, otherwise distorted, or depicted exactly as it happened and portray that as normal behavior.  The truth is that it is not normal behavior for policemen and we tend to forget that there are hundreds of thousands of interactions between police and citizens daily that do not result in inappropriate action.  Addressing police training and other problems in our systems is prudent.  Suggesting that they should be de-funded is nothing less than just silly.

Owen - Posted - 03/12/2021:  07:43:59

Spot-on, John.... so long as we realize that "...never should have happened, taken out of context, otherwise distorted, or depicted exactly as it happened and portray that as normal behavior"  is taking place on both "sides;" supporters and detractors.... particularly those who like to extrapolate inappropriately and to cherry-pick data.

If media coverage is an accurate measure , at present the pendulum seems off-kilter, but to me it doesn't mean that either side should be minimized/ignored/pooh-poohed away.

[I'm just raising what I feel is are legitimate points, not making an accusation.]

Banjonewguy - Posted - 03/12/2021:  07:54:48

The problem is that most media coverage isn't an accurate measure. They rarely show that actions that led up to the police response and even when they do they downplay the seriousness of the situation in many cases. That and they outright run with false narrative from the get-go when more accurate information is known. Not saying that they all do this or that it happens in every incident, but I know of at least a couple of cases where that very thing has happened and the cops were destroyed in the court of public opinion when, at the end of it all, things happened just like they said.

One case that comes to mind was a police shooting of someone whose family swore was unarmed and only carrying a sandwich. The police found a weapon laying next to him and his own facebook page had pictures of him with that exact weapon, which turned out to be stolen by the way, a week earlier.

There are also cases where the police have been proven to manipulate the scene and evidence as well. These are the actions that make it so bad on the honest cops who are just trying to do their job.

jan dupree - Posted - 03/12/2021:  08:15:44

msn.com/en-us/news/crime/lawsu...A4sOP94Bc This is what it is like when the Police are out of control. When we no have Elected Sheriffs this could become more common.

Buddur - Posted - 03/12/2021:  08:23:53

Unfortunately, social media, and some media giants on TV, over exaggerate the "one bad apple" to include the entire regime.

Owen - Posted - 03/12/2021:  09:02:11

.... I don't have any stats, but I doubt there are significantly more/fewer "bad apples" on one end of the spectrum than there are "exemplary apples" on the other end.   I expect there's big whack in the middle that just goes about their job.   

I'm at least as much concerned about stuff that flies under the radar, without wide publicity [juror tampering, witness tampering, evidence tampering, unjustified surveillance, etc., etc., etc.] as I am about the stuff that gets the publicity.... but I'm not about to minimize/dismiss something simply on the grounds that it's a minority of instances.... or that it hasn't affected me, or my family, directly and/or personally. 

banjo bill-e - Posted - 03/12/2021:  09:25:11

We could keep whining about it or we could take a few discreet positive actions:
Eliminate qualified immunity.
Eliminate asset forfeiture.
Eliminate police unions.
Decriminalize drug usage.
Decriminalize sex work.
Establish local independent police oversite boards with real power.
and---------------- your suggestions?

But I suppose that all that noise about police reform last year was just noise after all, as that seems to be a forgotten issue now. Certainly did not make the top ten of policy concerns, by anybody, this round.

bubbalouie - Posted - 03/12/2021:  17:48:26

I've typed out a bunch of responses & deleted them. I have no criminal record & have lots of good stories of my interactions with the Police. I learned from older guys to cooperate with them. They didn't & it always ended badly. This all revolved around fast cars/motorcycles & alcohol.

It seems these days officers are being charged from the top on down & they always get off. Suspended with pay then not guilty. 

They have to prepare themselves for the worst case scenario & so do I. That may make me look a little shaky/nervous when I produce my  I.D. 

Edited by - bubbalouie on 03/12/2021 17:49:45

jan dupree - Posted - 03/12/2021:  17:50:55

quote:

---

Originally posted by Owen

.... I don't have any stats, but I doubt there are significantly more/fewer "bad apples" on one end of the spectrum than there are "exemplary apples" on the other end.   I expect there's big whack in the middle that just goes about their job.   

I'm at least as much concerned about stuff that flies under the radar, without wide publicity [juror tampering, witness tampering, evidence tampering, unjustified surveillance, etc., etc., etc.] as I am about the stuff that gets the publicity.... but I'm not about to minimize/dismiss something simply on the grounds that it's a minority of instances.... or that it hasn't affected me, or my family, directly and/or personally. 

---

From all the cases that come to light, I think 25% should not have the job, 25% go along with them or protect them, and the other 50% are probably what you might call good Cops, or just turn a blind eye to the other 50%. A lot of it depends on the Sheriff. City Police Departments are probably the worst. The profession has always attracted a certain percentage of individuals that get off on the power, or the proverbial "Short Man Syndrome" as it is commonly called today, that they are unable to achieve in other Professions, and they are the ones where the problems come from. 

Edited by - jan dupree on 03/12/2021 17:58:26

heruka - Posted - 03/12/2021:  19:22:14

I grew up in a high crime area, Cleveland. Trust me, it's not the cops you need to worry about. I now live outside minnecrapolis in western wisconsin. Minnesotans are nuts. Many of them think cops are the issue. They honestly believe if you placate criminals they will change their ways. It's insane. In Cleveland, if you're of a certain demographic and caught with an illegal weapon, they will not charge you. Even if you're a convicted felon with violence on your record. Meh, I could go on. But living here my pet peeve has become dumb white people who've never experienced the other side of life.

Owen - Posted - 03/12/2021:  19:55:26

Heruka, is there a "the" issue?  ...or is it many intertwined issues?   

[Nobody asked me, but my thinking is that it's the latter, and any simplistic one-dimensional solution (?) will produce disappointing results.] 

Bill-e has some good ^^ proposals.  I dunno whether "oversight boards with real power" would put the kibosh on the farce of one police force "investigating" another force, but if it doesn't, that would remain a problem.  I think a board with "real power" might reduce, but not eliminate, the need for unions,

heruka - Posted - 03/12/2021:  20:47:01

quote:

---

Originally posted by Owen

Heruka, is there a "the" issue?  ...or is it many intertwined issues?   

[Nobody asked me, but my thinking is that it's the latter, and any simplistic one-dimensional solution (?) will produce disappointing results.] 

Bill-e has some good ^^ proposals.  I dunno whether "oversight boards with real power" would put the kibosh on the farce of one police force "investigating" another force, but if it doesn't, that would remain a problem.  I think a board with "real power" might reduce, but not eliminate, the need for unions,

---

You're out of you're league, kid. I've known more people murdered by the time I graduated high school than you've known shot.

I don't mean that in an arrogant or condescending manner, the opposite. It's a sad reality growing up in america. 

In the age of hate police.. Cleveland has increased the police budget. We know crime. We know what causes it. But we are helpless in a world gone full retard.