From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 11/28/2017:  15:15:57

PCfive:

I think you are having a terminology difference here. My take is that there is no simple Scruggs. Some of the stuff that I heard him play that sounded simple to me and then I tried to do it note for note...well it was not simple at all. But the great ones in anything make it look simple. To me, and I might be worth $.02 if inflation hits big, to me Scruggs is playing ALL  the syllables and the way he weaves that so well into his mechanics is hard. Maybe not as hard if you do it half way, but to do it the way Scruggs and the Big K do it. tough. they are accurate and information of the song heavy if that makes sense. To me, yes, trying to get Scruggs like is worth practicing all the time and a lot, but it is not basic and it is not easy. that, IMO is why guys like Charlie Cushman, Larry perkins, and Jim Mills have such a great reputation.. they can do it. and yes I agree with you 100% working on the timing the timing and the timing is a great quest.

ken

pcfive - Posted - 11/28/2017:  15:34:06

quote:

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Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom

PCfive:

I think you are having a terminology difference here. My take is that there is no simple Scruggs. Some of the stuff that I heard him play that sounded simple to me and then I tried to do it note for note...well it was not simple at all. But the great ones in anything make it look simple. To me, and I might be worth $.02 if inflation hits big, to me Scruggs is playing ALL  the syllables and the way he weaves that so well into his mechanics is hard. Maybe not as hard if you do it half way, but to do it the way Scruggs and the Big K do it. tough. they are accurate and information of the song heavy if that makes sense. To me, yes, trying to get Scruggs like is worth practicing all the time and a lot, but it is not basic and it is not easy. that, IMO is why guys like Charlie Cushman, Larry perkins, and Jim Mills have such a great reputation.. they can do it. and yes I agree with you 100% working on the timing the timing and the timing is a great quest.

ken

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Ok, I am starting to feel like at least one person understands what I am trying to say. What I am referring to as the "simple basics" are hard as heck to learn. That is why I feel like spending hours every day practicing the "basics," and I don't feel like it is a waste of time.

I am NOT going over and over something I already know well! I know the concepts, but that is far from being enough!

So this means it is very hard for me to understand how to apply the "reflective practice" ideas. 

The first thing I do when I start practicing is play forward rolls at 60 bpm. Well that's about the easiest thing you can do, but it's still a challenge to do it RIGHT.

I play all different versions of Bury Me Beneath the Willow with youtube. Am I just learning that particular song? No, that song includes a lot of those "simple basics" that are so hard to get right.

I feel like I am making slow progress, but I also feel like I am still struggling. So, as long as it is still a challenge then I think it's reflective.

chuckv97 - Posted - 11/28/2017:  17:33:09

To casually say it’s easy is an insult to the excellent players who have worked for years at their craft. I learn by ear and by tab.., if you want to see how the pros do it, like Scruggs’ HSH, it ain’t a bad idea to follow the tab in his book. I don’t have to re-invent the wheel, or attempt a weak facsimile on my own.

pcfive - Posted - 11/28/2017:  17:38:57

quote:

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Originally posted by chuckv97

To casually say it’s easy is an insult to the excellent players who have worked for years at their craft. I learn by ear and by tab.., if you want to see how the pros do it, like Scruggs’ HSH, it ain’t a bad idea to follow the tab in his book. I don’t have to re-invent the wheel, or attempt a weak facsimile on my own.

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Well I sure never said any of this is easy. Just the opposite, many times. Maybe you are talking about someone else.

I am not very interested in learning from tabs at the stage I am at now. I would rather spend my time practicing what I call the basics. And, I know I definitely said, the basics are NOT easy.

Tabs do not give a good sense of the patterns, and that is why I don't use them much now.

chuckv97 - Posted - 11/28/2017:  18:26:10

Quote: “ I had tried learning Home Sweet Home from tabs years ago, but never memorized it. So today, I decided to see if I could plug together some Scruggs style basics and play it. And yes, it was easy, so much easier than trying to memorize a tab.”

Maybe there is more than one meaning for the word “easy”. (sarcasm intended 😎

Banjophobic - Posted - 11/28/2017:  18:48:02

quote:

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Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom

\ My take is that there is no simple Scruggs. Some of the stuff that I heard him play that sounded simple to me and then I tried to do it note for note...well it was not simple at all. But the great ones in anything make it look simple.

Maybe not as hard if you do it half way, but to do it the way Scruggs and the Big K do it. tough. they are accurate and information of the song heavy if that makes sense. To me, yes, trying to get Scruggs like is worth practicing all the time and a lot, but it is not basic and it is not easy. that, IMO is why guys like Charlie Cushman, Larry perkins, and Jim Mills have such a great reputation.. they can do it. and yes I agree with you 100% working on the timing the timing and the timing is a great quest.

ken

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Ken

Great thoughts there and yes playing Scruggs proficiently, is NOT easy at all. Learning the intricacies  of each song, in Earls style, is a monumental undertaking. Reflective practice in regards to something like, say, learning Earls version of Dear Old Dixie, will show anyone how far they have come in this style once they try to play it. Its not just about throwing together any standard Scruggs lick or roll the player likes and calling it a true version. Theres waaayyy more to this style than that and nothing easy about it,period.

Rawhide Creek - Posted - 11/28/2017:  19:23:28

quote:

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Originally posted by pcfive

quote:

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Originally posted by chuckv97

To casually say it’s easy is an insult to the excellent players who have worked for years at their craft. I learn by ear and by tab.., if you want to see how the pros do it, like Scruggs’ HSH, it ain’t a bad idea to follow the tab in his book. I don’t have to re-invent the wheel, or attempt a weak facsimile on my own.

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 . . .

Tabs do not give a good sense of the patterns, and that is why I don't use them much now.

 

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You can hear patterns or see patterns, or both.  Some people learn better one way than another.  People who “see” patterns in written music (be it tablature or conventional notation) can get an excellent sense of them.  

In fact, when I’ve studied a score to prepare it for performance, I can “hear” it in my head.  

pcfive - Posted - 11/29/2017:  04:40:33

There have been many debates at this forum over the years about learning from tabs vs learning by ear. Learning by ear used to win most of the time in the past, but I see there are more tab advocates here now.

There is nothing wrong with learning complicated arrangements from tabs, but that is definitely more like a classical approach to music. That is how I started learning banjo, because I had played classical guitar before.

I was converted to the playing by ear approach. I am mainly interested in playing backup, and being able to follow most songs at a jam.

I think maybe the problem in this thread has been that banjophobic's reflective practice ideas apply more to learning from tabs than by ear.

I learned how to make arrangements from the Splitting the Licks book.

It is much easier for me to understand Home Sweet Home now, for example, because I think in terms of chord shapes. The structure of the song is obvious to me now, and I can play the chords and rolls and melody notes.

No, I could not instantly play Home Sweet Home fast without mistakes, and I could not play it "note for note." But if I wanted to spend time on it, eventually I probably could.

It is MUCH easier than memorizing a tab, at least for me, and probably for most.

The whole controversy here is probably the old tab vs no tab debate. In the old days at this forum, people would have known what I meant.

What I am talking about is learning the basic patterns, the language of bluegrass, and constructing backup and breaks out of those patterns. As described in Splitting the Licks.

As a result, what I practice every day are the basics, always trying to play them better.

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 11/29/2017:  05:59:18

PC5:
I think you are missing the boat if you think banjophobic's "reflective practice ideas apply more to learning from tabs than by ear." I have followed John on this site for years and took skype lessons from him for a year. The lessons were the most productive thing I have ever done on the banjo. From this I can tell you that John is a guy big on learning by ear and that his knowledge of the gestalt of banjo is huge. When John says something I try to figure out how to make it work.

pcfive - Posted - 11/29/2017:  06:23:39

quote:

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Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom

PC5:

I think you are missing the boat if you think banjophobic's "reflective practice ideas apply more to learning from tabs than by ear." I have followed John on this site for years and took skype lessons from him for a year. The lessons were the most productive thing I have ever done on the banjo. From this I can tell you that John is a guy big on learning by ear and that his knowledge of the gestalt of banjo is huge. When John says something I try to figure out how to make it work.

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I would try to figure out how to make it work if I could understand it. I have been trying to understand it, but I can't. 

I really want to know if I have to change my whole practice routine to be reflective, or if it already is reflective. 

But music ideas are very hard to express in words, so I have not been able to get what is being advocated.

Yes, I was very surprised to see that banjophobic seemed to be advocating tabs, that does not usually happen at this forum. In the past, tabs were often called "evil," it went that far.

But maybe he wasn't, and the problem as I said is that words are just not good for communicating about music (or a lot of other things).

Edited by - pcfive on 11/29/2017 06:24:15

FlyinEagle - Posted - 11/29/2017:  06:42:45

quote:

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Originally posted by pcfive

quote:

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Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom

PC5:

I think you are missing the boat if you think banjophobic's "reflective practice ideas apply more to learning from tabs than by ear." I have followed John on this site for years and took skype lessons from him for a year. The lessons were the most productive thing I have ever done on the banjo. From this I can tell you that John is a guy big on learning by ear and that his knowledge of the gestalt of banjo is huge. When John says something I try to figure out how to make it work.

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I would try to figure out how to make it work if I could understand it. I have been trying to understand it, but I can't. 

I really want to know if I have to change my whole practice routine to be reflective, or if it already is reflective. 

But music ideas are very hard to express in words, so I have not been able to get what is being advocated.

Yes, I was very surprised to see that banjophobic seemed to be advocating tabs, that does not usually happen at this forum. In the past, tabs were often called "evil," it went that far.

But maybe he wasn't, and the problem as I said is that words are just not good for communicating about music (or a lot of other things).

---

This is what John says about tab, directly from his website:

“I do use tabs but not with everybody. Tab for me, is best left for players who have moved beyond the basics and who have developed some decent ear training. I do not use tabs for rank beginners, but do use them sometimes with more experienced players as a learning aid.”

This doesn’t sound like advocating to me, it sounds like an open minded approach to the use of all the tools available for a student to use to improve with.

I’m not trying to pile on you PCfive, and I don’t think this thread needs to turn into another “tab vs ear” debate, but I don’t think what you are saying reflects John’s philosophy at all. 

phb - Posted - 11/29/2017:  06:42:50

@pcfive:

Kenny Ingram's playing on that song is certainly Scruggs style but not simple. It sure is a worthy goal to be able to play like that. To me, if it takes infinite time to achieve perfection, playing like that will take a couple of days less than infinity... :)

I think the point here is that perhaps you can get pretty close to what he does in the simpler parts e.g. playing at 80% of his speed but there are probably parts you could only do at 60% of his speed. But why? Because there is something there you cannot do as well as the rest. And that is what you should practice more than just forward rolls at 130bpm. Oftentimes you will notice that dedicating time to a "rough spot" will at the same time also improve other things you could already do pretty well.

pcfive - Posted - 11/29/2017:  06:54:13

There is a central point to the whole argument, I think. No one wants to see my side of it because I am the non-expert.

I know I should just let it go and forget it and continue doing what I think works for me. But, being stupid and stubborn, I will try to summarize the main point as I see it:

banjophobic said I am wasting my time if I practice the same old things every day, the things I already know.

The problem with that is, even if I already know something, I can always try to play it better and faster.

I have learned the basic roll patterns, and I know how to slide, hammer, pull off, etc. I can make up arrangements.

It seems to me that what I should spend most of my practice time doing is reinforcing the basic things I already know. The tone, rhythm, timing and speed can always get better.

I do not see anything wrong with what I am saying. I have said it several times by now, but no one has agreed with me.

And this could be because I am the non-expert, so no one wants to agree with me.

pcfive - Posted - 11/29/2017:  06:56:43

quote:

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Originally posted by phb

@pcfive:



Kenny Ingram's playing on that song is certainly Scruggs style but not simple. It sure is a worthy goal to be able to play like that. To me, if it takes infinite time to achieve perfection, playing like that will take a couple of days less than infinity... :)



I think the point here is that perhaps you can get pretty close to what he does in the simpler parts e.g. playing at 80% of his speed but there are probably parts you could only do at 60% of his speed. But why? Because there is something there you cannot do as well as the rest. And that is what you should practice more than just forward rolls at 130bpm. Oftentimes you will notice that dedicating time to a "rough spot" will at the same time also improve other things you could already do pretty well.

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Thanks, but this does not make sense to me. There is NO part of KI's playing in this video that I can play well at that speed. I need to practice ALL of it.

I don't see the point of trying to find parts of it that are a little harder for me. 

phb - Posted - 11/29/2017:  07:25:38

quote:

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Originally posted by pcfive

Thanks, but this does not make sense to me. There is NO part of KI's playing in this video that I can play well at that speed. I need to practice ALL of it.

I don't see the point of trying to find parts of it that are a little harder for me. 

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Well, you will have to accept that you cannot play it like Kenny Ingram at his speed. We all learn Cumberland Gap the way Earl played it and yet hardly anyone sounds like Earl when playing it. We don't keep playing it until we do sound like Earl but we all revisit it from time to time. Learn to play what Kenny Ingram plays in that video at 80% of his speed and you will surely find things you can do and parts that are more difficult for you. Practice the difficult parts more than the easy parts.

Actually this is basic time management: you haven't got enough time to get everything to 100%. The closer you get to 100% completion, the more effort you have to make to improve. You have 80% of one part done and 50% of another. You could now spend all your remaining time on getting the 80% part to 90% or get both parts to 85% in the same time. 90%+50% is worse than 85%+85%. Use your practice time efficiently, go for the low-hanging fruit even though it may appear harder. You will get better returns on the time you invested.

pcfive - Posted - 11/29/2017:  07:38:12

quote:

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Originally posted by phb

quote:

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Originally posted by pcfive

Thanks, but this does not make sense to me. There is NO part of KI's playing in this video that I can play well at that speed. I need to practice ALL of it.

I don't see the point of trying to find parts of it that are a little harder for me. 

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Well, you will have to accept that you cannot play it like Kenny Ingram at his speed. We all learn Cumberland Gap the way Earl played it and yet hardly anyone sounds like Earl when playing it. We don't keep playing it until we do sound like Earl but we all revisit it from time to time. Learn to play what Kenny Ingram plays in that video at 80% of his speed and you will surely find things you can do and parts that are more difficult for you. Practice the difficult parts more than the easy parts.

Actually this is basic time management: you haven't got enough time to get everything to 100%. The closer you get to 100% completion, the more effort you have to make to improve. You have 80% of one part done and 50% of another. You could now spend all your remaining time on getting the 80% part to 90% or get both parts to 85% in the same time. 90%+50% is worse than 85%+85%. Use your practice time efficiently, go for the low-hanging fruit even though it may appear harder. You will get better returns on the time you invested.

 

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 I know, I know what you're saying, I think. But it still misses what I am trying to say. I posted that video as an example of simple backup, mostly forward rolls I think, played in an extremely advanced way.

I am not trying to copy that, it would take about 4 lifetimes. What I am saying is that I think I should keep on practicing things I already know, every day.

What if I tried to search for things I don't know and spend most of my practice time on those things? I would be lost, I would not know how to proceed.

I need to get better at the things I already know. That is my point. If someone can explain to me why I am wrong, I will listen. If I have to change the whole way I practice, then I will. But so far, I see no logical reason for that.

Banjophobic - Posted - 11/29/2017:  07:41:17

PC, I never said anything about tab in this thread in regards to practice, reflective or otherwise. I only mentioned it to reply to you and your infusion of it in this thread. I also said one is wasting their valuable practice time playing things over and over that they are already great at..."great" being the operative word.

You either never really comprehended this thread or you decided to turn into this "tab" and " don't repeat stuff" thread drift. Either way you are plain wrong on every count. This will be my last reply and I'm not being huffy towards you, just honest. Reflective practice is just the identifying of things you need work on and setting dedicated time to woodshed on that, instead of just making every practice a personal pat on the back session of playing stuff you are already great playing, in a nut shell. If  you don't understand this concept or the need to challenge yourself to grow musically then I don't know what else to say.

Folks are trying to help you understand but it appears you decided to see this as a philosophical debate, which is definitely isn't. I think you should just keep doing what you are doing and pretend you never saw this thread. From what you said you have your practices all figured out how you like them so there's no need for improvement. Just enjoy it 👍

Edited by - Banjophobic on 11/29/2017 07:51:38

phb - Posted - 11/29/2017:  08:16:02

John, I think the problem isn't likely to be pcfive patting herself on the back over how well she plays the basic stuff but rather that she is too critical about what she does and thus doesn't see that she does it well enough to let it rest for now and move on to stuff she can't do as well.

pcfive: do you transcribe other people's breaks note for note as part of your banjo learning efforts?

Banjophobic - Posted - 11/29/2017:  08:30:30

quote:

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Originally posted by phb

John, I think the problem isn't likely to be pcfive patting herself on the back over how well she plays the basic stuff but rather that she is too critical about what she does and thus doesn't see that she does it well enough to let it rest for now and move on to stuff she can't do as well.



pcfive: do you transcribe other people's breaks note for note as part of your banjo learning efforts?

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PHb, I wasn't saying she's was doing that. Earlier is said playing things you are great at, all the time, as practice is like patting yourself on the back. Nothing wrong with positive affirmations but practice also needs to be gritty, where one identifies weakness and stares it in the face. It was aimed at anyone who makes practice all about that. 

Banjophobic - Posted - 11/29/2017:  08:34:52

Ok, getting back to the real thread content, last night I managed to get an actual reflective practice session in, there were some songs that I needed to revisit to construct better versions of, and some theoretical things ive been slack about studying again.

I intended to practice about an hour and when the session was over, I had gone at it for about 3 hours. While I doubt I can manage that with any frequency I'm dedicating two hours a day, maybe one in the morning and one before bed, this winter. Hopefully I can get back into this groove I once had for practicing.

pcfive - Posted - 11/29/2017:  08:44:32

quote:

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Originally posted by phb

John, I think the problem isn't likely to be pcfive patting herself on the back over how well she plays the basic stuff but rather that she is too critical about what she does and thus doesn't see that she does it well enough to let it rest for now and move on to stuff she can't do as well.



pcfive: do you transcribe other people's breaks note for note as part of your banjo learning efforts?

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I am very critical about what I am doing. I record myself every day and listen carefully and analyze it. I retired recently and have nothing better to do. But honestly, I want to sound exactly how I want to sound.

No I never transcribe anyone's breaks. As I said, I have been staying away from tabs. As long as the breaks are "simple," I can probably analyze them without transcribing.

I learned a whole lot from the Splitting the Licks book, years ago. Just the Scruggs part, not the melodic part, I decided not to get into that.

Then I figured what I really need is more and better muscle memory, so that is what I have focused on. Exactly how the thumb pick hits the 5th string, for example, is important to me. Every little thing is important.

Do I have OCD? Well maybe a little.

phb - Posted - 11/29/2017:  09:06:34

quote:

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Originally posted by pcfive

No I never transcribe anyone's breaks. As I said, I have been staying away from tabs. As long as the breaks are "simple," I can probably analyze them without transcribing.

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Transcribing and staying away from tabs are two distinct topics. Even though transcribing literally means to write it down it is not necessary to do so, you can directly memorize it all if you want to. I'm with you about learning from tabs but don't see any problem in producing tabs for training and perhaps to support my memory. The important part about transcribing is that you will get lots of ideas about what to practice if you really transcribe Kenny Ingram's break on that song. You will find places where you seriously wonder what he is doing and how he is doing it. And when you figure it out, you are treading foreign lands without leaving Scruggs territory. You wrote "I can probably figure it out". I think that without slowing it down and figuring it out note for note you will probably come up with an approximation using stuff you already know rather than learning a new trick (or lick...). And that's what the sarcastic comments about the video really were about.

pcfive - Posted - 11/29/2017:  09:46:13

quote:

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Originally posted by phb

quote:

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Originally posted by pcfive

No I never transcribe anyone's breaks. As I said, I have been staying away from tabs. As long as the breaks are "simple," I can probably analyze them without transcribing.

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Transcribing and staying away from tabs are two distinct topics. Even though transcribing literally means to write it down it is not necessary to do so, you can directly memorize it all if you want to. I'm with you about learning from tabs but don't see any problem in producing tabs for training and perhaps to support my memory. The important part about transcribing is that you will get lots of ideas about what to practice if you really transcribe Kenny Ingram's break on that song. You will find places where you seriously wonder what he is doing and how he is doing it. And when you figure it out, you are treading foreign lands without leaving Scruggs territory. You wrote "I can probably figure it out". I think that without slowing it down and figuring it out note for note you will probably come up with an approximation using stuff you already know rather than learning a new trick (or lick...). And that's what the sarcastic comments about the video really were about.

 

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The only part of that video I really want to imitate is the backup. I think it's mostly forward roles, but I could not transcribe it without slowing it down a lot. If anyone has already transcribed it, or knows where you find it, I would really appreciate that.

phb - Posted - 11/29/2017:  09:57:28

People transcribe Foggy Mountain Banjo all the time even though somebody else has already done it before them. Doing the hard thing yourself is what makes it different from the learning from tabs approach. The mere process of transcribing is in itself a learning process, the musical gems you'll find while doing it, are the rewards.

pcfive - Posted - 11/29/2017:  10:05:33

Ok, I slowed it down to half. Maybe I can figure out what the rolls are exactly.

pcfive - Posted - 11/29/2017:  10:10:32

It might just be a continuous 1 3 5 forward roll, mostly. I'll try recording myself playing along with it at half speed, and see if it sounds like it.

Mooooo - Posted - 11/29/2017:  10:40:15

Can someone please wake me up when this thread gets back on topic please...

phb - Posted - 11/29/2017:  10:45:36

quote:

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Originally posted by pcfive

It might just be a continuous 1 3 5 forward roll, mostly.

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Assuming that you meant 5 3 1, that is not exactly how I hear it. But I only listened to it a couple of times in the office through my monitor's built-in speakers. Perhaps BigK will resolve any remaining mysteries, he's a member on the BHO... :)

phb - Posted - 11/29/2017:  10:51:46

quote:

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Originally posted by Mooooo

Can someone please wake me up when this thread gets back on topic please...

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IMHO practicing transcribing if you haven't done it before is an example of practicing something hard. And I think it is a good way of finding new things to practice. But anyway, if you expect a thread to be 100% on-topic after eight pages of comments, welcome to the internet! ;) 

pcfive - Posted - 11/29/2017:  10:59:32

quote:

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Originally posted by phb

quote:

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Originally posted by Mooooo

Can someone please wake me up when this thread gets back on topic please...

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IMHO practicing transcribing if you haven't done it before is an example of practicing something hard. And I think it is a good way of finding new things to practice. But anyway, if you expect a thread to be 100% on-topic after eight pages of comments, welcome to the internet! ;) 

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I could imagine transcribing, no need for actually doing it. And you can transcribe something wrong and you would never know.

I want to play it half speed, then 75%, and record it. Then I would know if it sounds right.

I am not so much concerned about every little detail. I want to see if I can play the same backup patterns. I am not trying to learn new licks right now, I think I already know a lot of them, and I have all these books I seldom use anymore.

Mooooo - Posted - 11/29/2017:  11:00:25

quote:

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Originally posted by phb

quote:

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Originally posted by Mooooo

Can someone please wake me up when this thread gets back on topic please...

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IMHO practicing transcribing if you haven't done it before is an example of practicing something hard. And I think it is a good way of finding new things to practice. But anyway, if you expect a thread to be 100% on-topic after eight pages of comments, welcome to the internet! ;) 

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well, I don't expect it to be 100% on topic, but this one has strayed for the last 4 pages monopolized by one persons refusal to stay on topic and just go on and on repeating the same thing over and over and over and over....4 pages. that's 50%...surely you can agree that one person taking the thread off topic for 4 pages it a bit much. PMs work great for these kinds of personal off topic ideas...so do new threads.

Edited by - Mooooo on 11/29/2017 11:01:37

pcfive - Posted - 11/29/2017:  11:02:41

quote:

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Originally posted by Mooooo

quote:

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Originally posted by phb

quote:

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Originally posted by Mooooo

Can someone please wake me up when this thread gets back on topic please...

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IMHO practicing transcribing if you haven't done it before is an example of practicing something hard. And I think it is a good way of finding new things to practice. But anyway, if you expect a thread to be 100% on-topic after eight pages of comments, welcome to the internet! ;) 

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well, I don't expect it to be 100% on topic, but this one has strayed for the last 4 pages monopolized by one persons refusal to stay on topic and just go on and on repeating the same thing over and over and over and over....4 pages. that's 50%...surely you can agree that one person taking the thread off topic for 4 pages it a bit much. 

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I probably did repeat the same thing over and over. But almost NO ONE seemed to understand what I meant or agree with it. And no one seemed to have a reason for disagreeing with it.

Mooooo - Posted - 11/29/2017:  11:07:01

everyone understands, no one agrees, there were plenty of good reasons given, you won't accept them. I, along with several others are done with trying to help you understand. search the bho for vaughn meader and you will see what I am talking about. Please start your own thread.

Edited by - Mooooo on 11/29/2017 11:08:39

pcfive - Posted - 11/29/2017:  11:17:27

quote:

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Originally posted by Mooooo

everyone understands, no one agrees, there were plenty of good reasons given, you won't accept them. I, along with several others are done with trying to help you understand. search the bho for vaughn meader and you will see what I am talking about. Please start your own thread.

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How do YOU know what everyone thinks?

phb - Posted - 11/29/2017:  11:17:55

I was optimistic that this discussion is part of the way that leads to understanding. I'm such a person that argues against something I don't fully understand. And when I haven't got any arguments left that is when I have the feeling that I have understood.

Now with the latest comment about not wanting to learn something new and just wanting to play the same roll patterns (but not all the notes, huh?) I'm not so sure anymore. It's a bit like trying to learn a foreign language and insist on getting rid of your accent before you learn new vocabulary...

pcfive, you have played all roll patterns in that backup a million times before. If that's what you want to do, well, then just do it. Then John's advice isn't for you.

In any case I would love to hear your approximation of the backup playing on that tune.

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 11/29/2017:  11:19:24

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflective_practice

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 11/29/2017:  11:22:01

My reflective practice says that I need to spend more time with my hands on my banjo and less time dealing with this thread.
adios amigos.
ken

chuckv97 - Posted - 11/29/2017:  11:35:24

quote:

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Originally posted by Mooooo

everyone understands, no one agrees, there were plenty of good reasons given, you won't accept them. I, along with several others are done with trying to help you understand. search the bho for vaughn meader and you will see what I am talking about. Please start your own thread.

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wow, Vaughn Meader.....now we’re getting somewhere. Where is Steve Davis when we need him?......

Banjophobic - Posted - 11/29/2017:  12:16:22

Ok I've spilled my beans about my lastest reflective practicing. Anyone else care to fess up? This should get the thread back on course. Sorry for my participation in the drift..I tried to make some headway but alas, have been on that ocean voyage before.

eagleisland - Posted - 11/29/2017:  12:43:25

quote:

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Originally posted by Banjophobic

Ok I've spilled my beans about my lastest reflective practicing. Anyone else care to fess up? This should get the thread back on course.

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Naaah. It's much more entertaining this way.

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 11/29/2017:  13:48:17

I could use some input on this list.

Banjo Skills

 

Banjo-Pup - Posted - 11/29/2017:  21:18:12

I’ll share. I have been spending a lot of practice time the last few weeks working on improving my 3-2 pulloffs when integrated into a variety of licks in time with the metronome. I’ve known that needed some reflective practice time for a while but finally committed to do the work. I’m sure my wife and kids are ready to hang me just looping these short licks or phrases for 15 minutes plus daily while the metronome bangs along.  But I’ve made more improvement in consistent execution in the last 2 weeks than in the last 2 years of just playing the tunes and songs.  By focusing, practicing, reviewing, hypothesizing, experimenting, reviewing, repeating I made some insights.  Overall I have change the positioning of my left hand.  I have shifted where I place my thumb on the back of the neck.  This led to some major improvements especially when doing the 3-2 pull off following one or two 2-3 hammer ons the 2nd string. The improvement is even noticed by my 9 year old daughter.  Should have done this work a year ago...

Edited by - Banjo-Pup on 11/29/2017 21:31:00

Banjophobic - Posted - 11/30/2017:  07:59:59

quote:

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Originally posted by Banjo-Pup

I’ll share. I have been spending a lot of practice time the last few weeks working on improving my 3-2 pulloffs when integrated into a variety of licks in time with the metronome. I’ve known that needed some reflective practice time for a while but finally committed to do the work. I’m sure my wife and kids are ready to hang me just looping these short licks or phrases for 15 minutes plus daily while the metronome bangs along.  But I’ve made more improvement in consistent execution in the last 2 weeks than in the last 2 years of just playing the tunes and songs.  By focusing, practicing, reviewing, hypothesizing, experimenting, reviewing, repeating I made some insights.  Overall I have change the positioning of my left hand.  I have shifted where I place my thumb on the back of the neck.  This led to some major improvements especially when doing the 3-2 pull off following one or two 2-3 hammer ons the 2nd string. The improvement is even noticed by my 9 year old daughter.  Should have done this work a year ago...

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Pup, hey that's great and thanks for adding this to the thread.this post more than shows how reorganizing practice time to allow reflective input can improve ones playing. 👍👍

Banjophobic - Posted - 11/30/2017:  08:01:58

quote:

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Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

I could use some input on this list.

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What kind of input are you needing Rick? That's a pretty comprehensive chart already. 

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 11/30/2017:  08:12:13

quote:

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Originally posted by Banjophobic

quote:

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Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

I could use some input on this list.

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What kind of input are you needing Rick? That's a pretty comprehensive chart already. 

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Certainly I missed something 

Mooooo - Posted - 11/30/2017:  09:28:34

quote:

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Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

I could use some input on this list.

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Rick, I guess this list is an aid to critique a student. If so, I would group the list into topics instead of alphabetically. For instance, you can list all the theory related subjects together, all of the technique subjects together, all of the banjo maintenance together...etc. It's hard for me to see what is missing from your list (if anything....it seems comprehensive). I think with a more logical grouping system, you will be able to fill in any holes in your list. This list would certainly help anyone to find areas to improve via reflective practice. 

Banjophobic - Posted - 11/30/2017:  12:31:33

quote:

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Originally posted by Mooooo

everyone understands, no one agrees, there were plenty of good reasons given, you won't accept them. I, along with several others are done with trying to help you understand. search the bho for vaughn meader and you will see what I am talking about. Please start your own thread.

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Well, ask and ye shall receive it appears. I just read the new thread and im still baffled how anyone could read my first thread post and come up with the new narrative of what I actually 'said' and meant. Oh well, no biggie.

Mooooo - Posted - 11/30/2017:  13:01:56

quote:

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Originally posted by Banjophobic

quote:

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Originally posted by Mooooo

everyone understands, no one agrees, there were plenty of good reasons given, you won't accept them. I, along with several others are done with trying to help you understand. search the bho for vaughn meader and you will see what I am talking about. Please start your own thread.

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Well, ask and ye shall receive it appears. I just read the new thread and im still baffled how anyone could read my first thread post and come up with the new narrative of what I actually 'said' and meant. Oh well, no biggie.

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I was thinking a nice 4 page conversation about thumb picks would be a fun addition to that topic

Rawhide Creek - Posted - 11/30/2017:  21:05:35

I’m not sure how “reflective” it is, but I can say with confidence, having been both a student and a teacher, that I don’t believe it is possible to learn something new without tackling something new.  If you want to learn bariolage, for instance, you must first learn to do it, then exercise it to master it.  Once mastered, you apply that mastery.

Are there different ways to do the same piece?  Of course.  Joshua Bell has been interviewed about this, specifically about changes he has made to the Bruch concerto.  And Janos Starker recorded the Bach cello suites three different times, once as a young man, once in middle age, and once as a mature performer.  But, in the cases of both Bell and Starker, they weren’t learning new techniques to perform, just executing different interpretations.