Mooooo - Posted - 11/18/2017:  18:38:12

@ Jonah, no one can answer your question as asked, you need to be more specific on what you want people to tell you what to do. Is it single string scale runs you want to walk up the neck, is it melodic scales? is it walking up the inversions of a chord? There's a lot more ways of walking up the neck. If you give an example of what you want for instance you want to learn the lick that is happening on song X at 2:13 and add a link to the song, people will be able to help you without trying to guess what you are asking.

jonah4832 - Posted - 11/19/2017:  04:29:00

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mooooo

@ Jonah, no one can answer your question as asked, you need to be more specific on what you want people to tell you what to do. Is it single string scale runs you want to walk up the neck, is it melodic scales? is it walking up the inversions of a chord? There's a lot more ways of walking up the neck. If you give an example of what you want for instance you want to learn the lick that is happening on song X at 2:13 and add a link to the song, people will be able to help you without trying to guess what you are asking.

---

all three of those things you mentioned would be my idea of what i am asking just wasnt sure how to phrase it, so how do I find such material on that kind of walking or can you guys explain it.  Thanks

steve davis - Posted - 11/19/2017:  07:43:59

Russ...when I say three "chord inversions" I'm saying...Barre ,5 frets to the "F" shape then 4 frets to the "D" shape.

This standard is identical for all keys.

This is much more than just playing those chords.It's the map for instantly going to the lefthand (neckhand) choices anywhere on the neck for that particular key.Within each major chord shape there are 4 notes at one's disposal.

All that's necessary to navigate the entire neck is the visualization of that inversion set and choosing the note(s) from it.



I'm not talking about 7ths of anything.

Edited by - steve davis on 11/19/2017 08:03:14

Rawhide Creek - Posted - 11/19/2017:  10:07:13

A chord in root position is by definition not an inversion.  The F shape produces chords in root position.

Banjophobic - Posted - 11/19/2017:  10:09:30

quote:

---

Originally posted by jonah4832

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mooooo

@ Jonah, no one can answer your question as asked, you need to be more specific on what you want people to tell you what to do. Is it single string scale runs you want to walk up the neck, is it melodic scales? is it walking up the inversions of a chord? There's a lot more ways of walking up the neck. If you give an example of what you want for instance you want to learn the lick that is happening on song X at 2:13 and add a link to the song, people will be able to help you without trying to guess what you are asking.

---

all three of those things you mentioned would be my idea of what i am asking just wasnt sure how to phrase it, so how do I find such material on that kind of walking or can you guys explain it.  Thanks

---

There's a big amount of information about those ways to move around the neck, from the Scruggs book to pat clouds book, with dozens of others in between. What you need to do is focus on ONE way to move around, instead if looking at all the ways at once. You'll bite off way more than you could ever chew with that approach. Pick a few example of one method for the info you need to get pointed in the right direction  with  books or videos. 

Mooooo - Posted - 11/19/2017:  10:21:08

quote:

---

Originally posted by jonah4832

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mooooo

@ Jonah, no one can answer your question as asked...

---

all three of those things you mentioned would be my idea of what i am asking just wasnt sure how to phrase it, so how do I find such material on that kind of walking or can you guys explain it.  Thanks

---

You will get plenty of responses if you start a topic dedicated to your question instead of asking here because this topic is reflective practice. Maybe you can call your topic "Walking up the neck"

Edited by - Mooooo on 11/19/2017 10:22:15

jonah4832 - Posted - 11/22/2017:  04:25:31

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mooooo

quote:

---

Originally posted by jonah4832

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mooooo

@ Jonah, no one can answer your question as asked...

---

all three of those things you mentioned would be my idea of what i am asking just wasnt sure how to phrase it, so how do I find such material on that kind of walking or can you guys explain it.  Thanks

---

You will get plenty of responses if you start a topic dedicated to your question instead of asking here because this topic is reflective practice. Maybe you can call your topic "Walking up the neck"

---

Sorry if you feel I hi jacked the forum that is not my intentions as John knows me better than that.  I am a very serious banjo player who feels that in order to have a reflective practice one must have the right stuff to practice.  With such material and then lay it out as a baseball player would in training, then you will gain.  From my personal experiences, First in that order are the tools required.  Banjo, listening material, tablet for taking notes, metronome, tuner, and tabs or learning material, and your two ears, and eyes for paying attention to what other players are doing.  Layout a schedule, for practice.  And to me that consists of always learning something new.   Which brought me to mu questions about walking the neck of a banjo.  

Banjophobic - Posted - 11/22/2017:  07:53:00

Nah, no hijacking detected Rick, but I think the other thread will be more useful to get the info you need. Once you get it you can start to get serious wit the practice, which is what this thread is about.

Banjophobic - Posted - 11/22/2017:  07:54:45

Ive forced myself to get back to some serious reflective practicing and the past 7 days Ive devoted an hour a night before crashing to working on some specific goals Ive had in regards to my playing. This winter I'm upping that to two hours a day/night.

banjoy - Posted - 11/22/2017:  08:31:38

I received The Key to 5-string Banjo from Pat Cloud in the mail yesterday. It's clear from reading his extensive introduction that the entire purpose of the book is Reflective Practice. He talks about having specific goals, having specific places to practice, recording practice to analyze what's happening, it goes on and on.

For me personally, I've been very lax in even picking up the banjo. There have been weeks go by when I wouldn't remove it from the case. I've been a tad bummed out about a few things lately and that certainly affects that.

I found it interesting that Pat touched on the concepts I introduced earlier in this thread, being mindset, and setting. That's something that has affected me, and I'm working on.

Edited by - banjoy on 11/22/2017 08:32:02

Laurence Diehl - Posted - 11/23/2017:  09:45:11

quote:

---

Originally posted by Banjophobic

Ive forced myself to get back to some serious reflective practicing and the past 7 days Ive devoted an hour a night before crashing to working on some specific goals Ive had in regards to my playing. This winter I'm upping that to two hours a day/night.

---

John, what areas are you focusing on? 

For myself, I have been trying to learn jazz improv and working on composition. Not sure if you would call that practice, but it's all music...

pearcemusic - Posted - 11/23/2017:  10:27:22

Yeah Frank ... Pat had a great influence on me early on ... 1978-80 ish, and I still learn from what he taught me back then. I practice with goals in mind every day still. I don’t try to play like Pat or anyone else these days. I focus on musical concepts that influenced his playing, but I do them in the way that comes most naturally to me. That’s NOT to say that I spend a lot of time regurgitating stuff that I already do well. I’m constantly hearing things that others play that I like, and coming up with ways to bring it into my playing. Sometimes it’s a set of chord changes that aren’t in my wheel house yet. Sometimes it’s practicing thinking thru really quick changes at a fast tempo. Recently I’ve been playing little note sequences that please me ... in a whole tone sound ... or a diminished sound. I’ll eventually get them into my improv’ing ...
there’s always a new challenge at hand.

banjerman - Posted - 11/25/2017:  07:02:58

In my case I have learned there will be NO instant taters when it comes to learning the harder licks/ tunes. I have to have goals in place also. In my case nothing at all comes close to repetition practice for effective learning. Slow practice at first with emphasis to embed in my music ear. The second to get my fingers to play at a bluegrass tempo.
Also it didnt help that the first three metronomes I used were wayy off. Lolol

Banjophobic - Posted - 11/25/2017:  10:19:46

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjerman

In my case I have learned there will be NO instant taters when it comes to learning the harder licks/ tunes. I have to have goals in place also. In my case nothing at all comes close to repetition practice for effective learning. Slow practice at first with emphasis to embed in my music ear. The second to get my fingers to play at a bluegrass tempo.

Also it didnt help that the first three metronomes I used were wayy off. Lolol

---

Those. Defective metronome seem to be everywhere Wally,haha. At least you had fingers and didn't get locked in a rambler in the backyard....

Edited by - Banjophobic on 11/25/2017 10:20:05

monstertone - Posted - 11/25/2017:  13:31:50

To me "practice" is on your own wood shedding. Working on whatever it is that you find difficult. Hopefully, in an organized manner. Jam sessions are the proving ground. Occasional mistakes are shrugged off as just part of the game. That is, unless someone is constantly screwing up to the point the jam starts falling apart.  

Band rehearsal, on the hand, is a group effort. It's all about working together towards a common goal, rather than just a bunch of musician wannabes aimlessly doing their own thing. Everyone should know their material beforehand, otherwise you are just wasting each other's time.

End of rant.

Banjophobic - Posted - 11/25/2017:  14:34:10

quote:

---

Originally posted by monstertone

To me "practice" is on your own wood shedding. Working on whatever it is that you find difficult. Hopefully, in an organized manner. Jam sessions are the proving ground. Occasional mistakes are shrugged off as just part of the game. That is, unless someone is constantly screwing up to the point the jam starts falling apart.  

Band rehearsal, on the hand, is a group effort. It's all about working together towards a common goal, rather than just a bunch of musician wannabes aimlessly doing their own thing. Everyone should know their material beforehand, otherwise you are just wasting each other's time.

End of rant.

---

Yeah, I think that's fairly obvious since individual practice is solo and "band" infers multiple and different context.

pcfive - Posted - 11/26/2017:  10:49:18

I spend a lot of time practicing the same things every day, even though I know how to play them. But until I can play them with perfect tone and perfect timing, then I feel I should still practice them every day.

I really just practice the basics because I think that's all you really need. It's easy to learn a new song, because bluegrass songs are usually similar. And it's not that hard to make up an instrumental break for a song.

What is hard, I think, is having perfect tone and timing even when playing fast. When I do metronome practice, I play the same rolls and songs over at increasing speeds.

I don't think I am just getting better at those particular rolls and songs, because the same patterns are used in most other songs.

So I don't really understand the concept of practicing what you need to improve. I will always just need to improve the basics, since I will never get them perfected.

Banjophobic - Posted - 11/26/2017:  12:47:17

quote:

---

Originally posted by pcfive

I spend a lot of time practicing the same things every day, even though I know how to play them. But until I can play them with perfect tone and perfect timing, then I feel I should still practice them every day.



I really just practice the basics because I think that's all you really need. It's easy to learn a new song, because bluegrass songs are usually similar. And it's not that hard to make up an instrumental break for a song.



What is hard, I think, is having perfect tone and timing even when playing fast. When I do metronome practice, I play the same rolls and songs over at increasing speeds.



I don't think I am just getting better at those particular rolls and songs, because the same patterns are used in most other songs.



So I don't really understand the concept of practicing what you need to improve. I will always just need to improve the basics, since I will never get them perfected.

---

If you know that you are lacking at the basics/fundamental then you should make that the focus of your practice. The goal of reflective practice, the way I'm describing it is making I think a point to focus on what you are NOT good at. It's easy to sit around and practice things you are good at all the time. But this doesn't move you forward or help you improve in the long run. 

No one will ever have "prefect" anything so if you are practicing to get perfection you are wasting valuable time. An analogy to focusing on things would be baking a cake, if you knew how to mix all the ingredients well but were really not that good at actually knowing how long to cook the cake to get it right, what do you think you should focus on then, just continuing to mix well and bruins the cake everytime or learning how to bake it correctly? It's not that hard to grasp if you think about it.

pcfive - Posted - 11/26/2017:  12:53:54

quote:

---

Originally posted by Banjophobic

quote:

---

Originally posted by pcfive

I spend a lot of time practicing the same things every day, even though I know how to play them. But until I can play them with perfect tone and perfect timing, then I feel I should still practice them every day.



I really just practice the basics because I think that's all you really need. It's easy to learn a new song, because bluegrass songs are usually similar. And it's not that hard to make up an instrumental break for a song.



What is hard, I think, is having perfect tone and timing even when playing fast. When I do metronome practice, I play the same rolls and songs over at increasing speeds.



I don't think I am just getting better at those particular rolls and songs, because the same patterns are used in most other songs.



So I don't really understand the concept of practicing what you need to improve. I will always just need to improve the basics, since I will never get them perfected.

---

If you know that you are lacking at the basics/fundamental then you should make that the focus of your practice. The goal of reflective practice, the way I'm describing it is making I think a point to focus on what you are NOT good at. It's easy to sit around and practice things you are good at all the time. But this doesn't move you forward or help you improve in the long run. 

No one will ever have "prefect" anything so if you are practicing to get perfection you are wasting valuable time. An analogy to focusing on things would be baking a cake, if you knew how to mix all the ingredients well but were really not that good at actually knowing how long to cook the cake to get it right, what do you think you should focus on then, just continuing to mix well and bruins the cake everytime or learning how to bake it correctly? It's not that hard to grasp if you think about it.

---

I don't know. I think about it a lot, but I still can't grasp it. I feel like spending most of my practice time hammering away at the basics, and have done this for years. I think I got better at the basics, which was my goal.

But it's still an infinitely long way to perfection. 

Should I start spending more time on more difficult licks and breaks? One problem is, when I try to learn something new I can't play it with the metronome. I always play along with something, either metronome or recordings, or other people.

Once in a great while I get out a book of tablatures. But I don't really like doing that anymore, because I got used to playing by ear.

I know I am in search of direction right now, although I still like to focus on the basics.

Banjophobic - Posted - 11/26/2017:  20:49:47

quote:

---

Originally posted by pcfive

quote:

---

Originally posted by Banjophobic

quote:

---

Originally posted by pcfive

I spend a lot of time practicing the same things every day, even though I know how to play them. But until I can play them with perfect tone and perfect timing, then I feel I should still practice them every day.



I really just practice the basics because I think that's all you really need. It's easy to learn a new song, because bluegrass songs are usually similar. And it's not that hard to make up an instrumental break for a song.



What is hard, I think, is having perfect tone and timing even when playing fast. When I do metronome practice, I play the same rolls and songs over at increasing speeds.



I don't think I am just getting better at those particular rolls and songs, because the same patterns are used in most other songs.



So I don't really understand the concept of practicing what you need to improve. I will always just need to improve the basics, since I will never get them perfected.

---

If you know that you are lacking at the basics/fundamental then you should make that the focus of your practice. The goal of reflective practice, the way I'm describing it is making I think a point to focus on what you are NOT good at. It's easy to sit around and practice things you are good at all the time. But this doesn't move you forward or help you improve in the long run. 

No one will ever have "prefect" anything so if you are practicing to get perfection you are wasting valuable time. An analogy to focusing on things would be baking a cake, if you knew how to mix all the ingredients well but were really not that good at actually knowing how long to cook the cake to get it right, what do you think you should focus on then, just continuing to mix well and bruins the cake everytime or learning how to bake it correctly? It's not that hard to grasp if you think about it.

---

I don't know. I think about it a lot, but I still can't grasp it. I feel like spending most of my practice time hammering away at the basics, and have done this for years. I think I got better at the basics, which was my goal.

But it's still an infinitely long way to perfection. 

Should I start spending more time on more difficult licks and breaks? One problem is, when I try to learn something new I can't play it with the metronome. I always play along with something, either metronome or recordings, or other people.

Once in a great while I get out a book of tablatures. But I don't really like doing that anymore, because I got used to playing by ear.

I know I am in search of direction right now, although I still like to focus on the basics.

 

---

Seriously, if you are practicing for perfection you are wasting your time. Once you ingrain basics they become part i for you and it's something you don't think about or practice. That sounds how you know you e mastered them. Does that mean you'll never make mistakes, heck no but th likely hold of. A,one those fundamental  errors goes waaayyy down.

the whole "reflective" concept is to look honestly at our playing and seeing where we are weakest at and make THAT the goals of some practicing. The only way to really progress is to challenge yourself, not keep doing things that are easy or that you are already very proficient at. 

Edited by - Banjophobic on 11/26/2017 20:51:22

Banjophobic - Posted - 11/26/2017:  20:53:31

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laurence Diehl

quote:

---

Originally posted by Banjophobic

Ive forced myself to get back to some serious reflective practicing and the past 7 days Ive devoted an hour a night before crashing to working on some specific goals Ive had in regards to my playing. This winter I'm upping that to two hours a day/night.

---

John, what areas are you focusing on? 

For myself, I have been trying to learn jazz improv and working on composition. Not sure if you would call that practice, but it's all music...

---

Lawrence

ive been setting goals of working on some jazz concepts, reviving some tunes I used to love to play but can't very well now, and trying to nudge my creativity and write some tunes which I aren't done ina good while. 

Banjophobic - Posted - 11/27/2017:  07:48:12

quote:

 

---

Originally posted by pcfive

quote:

---

Originally posted by Banjophobic

quote:

---

Originally posted by pcfive

I spend a lot of time practicing the same things every day, even though I know how to play them. But until I can play them with perfect tone and perfect timing, then I feel I should still practice them every day.



I really just practice the basics because I think that's all you really need. It's easy to learn a new song, because bluegrass songs are usually similar. And it's not that hard to make up an instrumental break for a song.



What is hard, I think, is having perfect tone and timing even when playing fast. When I do metronome practice, I play the same rolls and songs over at increasing speeds.



I don't think I am just getting better at those particular rolls and songs, because the same patterns are used in most other songs.



So I don't really understand the concept of practicing what you need to improve. I will always just need to improve the basics, since I will never get them perfected.

---

If you know that you are lacking at the basics/fundamental then you should make that the focus of your practice. The goal of reflective practice, the way I'm describing it is making I think a point to focus on what you are NOT good at. It's easy to sit around and practice things you are good at all the time. But this doesn't move you forward or help you improve in the long run. 

No one will ever have "prefect" anything so if you are practicing to get perfection you are wasting valuable time. An analogy to focusing on things would be baking a cake, if you knew how to mix all the ingredients well but were really not that good at actually knowing how long to cook the cake to get it right, what do you think you should focus on then, just continuing to mix well and bruins the cake everytime or learning how to bake it correctly? It's not that hard to grasp if you think about it.

---

I don't know. I think about it a lot, but I still can't grasp it. I feel like spending most of my practice time hammering away at the basics, and have done this for years. I think I got better at the basics, which was my goal.

But it's still an infinitely long way to perfection. 

Should I start spending more time on more difficult licks and breaks? One problem is, when I try to learn something new I can't play it with the metronome. I always play along with something, either metronome or recordings, or other people.

Once in a great while I get out a book of tablatures. But I don't really like doing that anymore, because I got used to playing by ear.

I know I am in search of direction right now, although I still like to focus on the basics.

 

---

Seriously, if you are practicing for perfection you are wasting your time. Once you ingrain basics they become part of you,  and it's something you don't have to think about or practice as part of a regular schedule.. That is how you know you've mastered them; they become automatic. Does that mean you'll never make mistakes, heck no but the likelihood of making fundamental errors goes way down. 

the whole "reflective" concept is to look honestly at our playing and seeing where we are weakest at, and make THAT the goals of some practicing. The only way to really progress is to challenge yourself, not keep doing things that are easy or that you are already very proficient at. 

---

Sorry about the typos.the Ipad is a pure pain to use here, but i had to fix it,haha.

pcfive - Posted - 11/27/2017:  08:34:06

Even if the basics have become ingrained and automatic, I think they can still be improved. I can play backup automatically without really paying attention, or I can listen carefully and pay attention to subtleties of tone and rhythm.

I think the result is much better when I pay careful attention. And I don't know when, or if, there will ever be a time when I should play automatically and stop focusing on basics.

I think focusing too much on things you don't know could encourage beginners to spend a lot of time learning new songs from tabs. Then they might never get their tone and timing as good as it should be, and they might never get fast enough.

But I am NOT a teacher, so these are just my amateur opinions. If I did give lessons, I would encourage repetition, and I would discourage spending too much time with tabs.

Banjophobic - Posted - 11/27/2017:  09:17:31

quote:

---

Originally posted by pcfive

Even if the basics have become ingrained and automatic, I think they can still be improved. I can play backup automatically without really paying attention, or I can listen carefully and pay attention to subtleties of tone and rhythm.



I think the result is much better when I pay careful attention. And I don't know when, or if, there will ever be a time when I should play automatically and stop focusing on basics.



I think focusing too much on things you don't know could encourage beginners to spend a lot of time learning new songs from tabs. Then they might never get their tone and timing as good as it should be, and they might never get fast enough.



But I am NOT a teacher, so these are just my amateur opinions. If I did give lessons, I would encourage repetition, and I would discourage spending too much time with tabs.

---

If you decide to only play the basic things for the rest of your life and it is working for you and thats all you think you'll ever need to know, then keep doing it.  Tab is not a bad thing if used correctly . But the thread isn't about tab, its about ones practice regimen and deciding to focus on things we KNOW we are weakest at. 

Its kind of an obvious thing being discussed. If a person knows they are great at a forward roll, but want to be just as proficient at backwards rolls, for example, what do you think they should practice more? Would practice the forward roll another million times make their backwards rolls any better? Think about it.

pcfive - Posted - 11/27/2017:  09:30:39

I do think about it. I think everything always needs improving. I can play all the basics ok, as far as I know, but I believe in repetition. I think Earl Scruggs mentioned it a lot.

I see a lack of emphasis on repetition in this post. It is probably a philosophical difference.

However, banjophobic, you have probably done a lot more repetition than you realize, just from playing the same songs over and over in bands.

But for someone like me, I think I can learn faster if I do a lot of repetition every day. Otherwise, I won't live long enough to get where I want to be.

pcfive - Posted - 11/27/2017:  10:46:59

One other thing -- if you know the basics you can play just about anything. You can play any song at the jams, and you can probably even get by in a band. Playing just the basics really well can sound amazing!

If your goal is to play dazzling fancy leads, that is great, but just make sure you don't sacrifice timing and tone for fanciness.

But my own goal is to be plain and simple, but with exceptional tone and rhythm. Not saying I can do that, but that is my goal.

Therefore, I don't think practicing things I already know is a waste of time. What I do NOT know is how to play fancy breaks, melodic licks, etc. I would rather forget about that, and just try to be good at plain Scruggs style basics.

Tractor1 - Posted - 11/27/2017:  11:13:08

I like to get thru every song I know once a week.Sometimes I blaze thru in a minute or 2 and go on sometimes I finally see a weakness.Some times I might work on a variation.To each their own after the formative years.
New songs and genres are what gets me working on new and thus weak territory.
I don't put this forth as advice ,just rambling about my way

Banjophobic - Posted - 11/27/2017:  13:59:18

quote:

---

Originally posted by pcfive

I see a lack of emphasis on repetition in this post. It is probably a philosophical difference.



However, banjophobic, you have probably done a lot more repetition than you realize, just from playing the same songs over and over in bands.



But for someone like me, I think I can learn faster if I do a lot of repetition every day. Otherwise, I won't live long enough to get where I want to be.

---

Where did you get the idea from any posts that repetition isn't a part of any practice routine? Repetition is essential. The concert here is not to repeat things over and over that you have already mastered, while wanting to grow and push you boundaries

i have more repetitions of things in 40 years of playing than I could even number, most likely in the tens of millions. But playing ten million repetitions of the alternating thumb roll isn't going to help me learn how to master the pike country breakdown solo, right? There are more challenging things, new techniques, that need to be learned first to accomplish that. 

At some point learning fundamentals means you have them ingrained and they become part of your basic 'operating system' like I said earlier. You don't need to play them forever as your only/main practice routine, unless as you simply can't get good at the fundamentals period. Yet another analogous would be learning to write your letters in first grade. By the time you make it to middle school you should already have mastered writing your ABC's and not having to spend time practicing them, right? There's no difference in learning banjo in this characterization or learning to write. Any skill w learn involves mastering fundamentals. 

Of course if someone is happy playing a handful of rolls and the same song over and  over until they die, then keep practicing them ad nauseam. Again perfection isn't the goal of practice, because that's impossible to achieve. But you can develop high level mastering of fundamentals. Is means you don't have to waste valuable time with ONLY doing those things and can challenge yourself with new things. It's only when we push ourselves out of comfort zones that we really ever grow. Staying in the same place for most people inst a goal. The goal I see to keep learning more and being better overall. 

Edited by - Banjophobic on 11/27/2017 14:01:09

Banjophobic - Posted - 11/27/2017:  14:14:28

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tractor1

I like to get thru every song I know once a week.Sometimes I blaze thru in a minute or 2 and go on sometimes I finally see a weakness.Some times I might work on a variation.To each their own after the formative years.

New songs and genres are what gets me working on new and thus weak territory.

I don't put this forth as advice ,just rambling about my way

---

You are reflecting on things you know are weaker at,  and making that the focus of a practice, or you are trying new things. Thats exactly what i mean in the thread title. 

pcfive - Posted - 11/27/2017:  14:19:41

Every time I get to the point where I think I have learned the basics, and should spend less time on it, I become more critical of my playing, and realize I have not learned the basics well enough.

Maybe you have finished learning the basics, banjophobic, but you should try to see this from the perspective of beginners and non-professionals. Most are very very far from being done with the basics.

Even if someone gets really good tone and timing, they might need to get faster. It takes years for most people to get fast enough. I think beginners should avoid spending time learning fancy licks if they still are not fast enough.

Also, learning new things means you can't play them with a metronome. Metronome practice is really of central importance, but it can only work with exercises or songs you already know well.

Beginners don't necessarily know all this. I sure didn't know it when I started. I approached learning bluegrass banjo the way I had approached learning guitar, and it did not work. Eventually I decided I would focus on the basics until I was really confident with it. That turned out to be a receding goal, but that's ok, I know I have been getting better.

I often learn new songs, because I play with others. But learning a new song usually just means re-arranging the same old basics.

Banjophobic - Posted - 11/27/2017:  14:36:40

quote:

---

Originally posted by pcfive

Every time I get to the point where I think I have learned the basics, and should spend less time on it, I become more critical of my playing, and realize I have not learned the basics well enough.



Maybe you have finished learning the basics, banjophobic, but you should try to see this from the perspective of beginners and non-professionals. Most are very very far from being done with the basics.



Even if someone gets really good tone and timing, they might need to get faster. It takes years for most people to get fast enough. I think beginners should avoid spending time learning fancy licks if they still are not fast enough.



Also, learning new things means you can't play them with a metronome. Metronome practice is really of central importance, but it can only work with exercises or songs you already know well.



Beginners don't necessarily know all this. I sure didn't know it when I started. I approached learning bluegrass banjo the way I had approached learning guitar, and it did not work. Eventually I decided I would focus on the basics until I was really confident with it. That turned out to be a receding goal, but that's ok, I know I have been getting better.



I often learn new songs, because I play with others. But learning a new song usually just means re-arranging the same old basics.

---

You still are not seeing the main jist of the thread. Whether you are a pro who has been playing 60 years, or a beginner who has only played a few months, we ALL need to reflect on where we came from in our playing , where we ARE, and where we want to go next. You have to have a vision ahead and get out of your practice comfort zone, if you want to progress and move forward. 

the metronome example you gave is the prime reason for  the thread. if you ONLY play things you already know well with the metronome, but avoid anything new or more challenging with it, how do you propose to get better at those new things?  You might have to slow down teh metronome for the more challenging things, but by focusing on it and being diligent, you will get as good on the new thing and you did that other stuff you played. Sitting there for hours playing cripple creek at 100 BPM, like you have for hundreds of hours, isnt going to help you play Salt creek at even 70 BPM. Why is that? Umm, maybe because you dont try it?

Avoiding something new because its harder is exactly why we can limit our progress. If practice in only for things we are already great at, then whats the point of it? practice isn't only for staying in one place, its is about growing. When you think about what this means, its pretty much common sense,but from your replies, a needed restatement of the obvious. This is the reason for the whole thread.

pcfive - Posted - 11/27/2017:  14:49:28

Well I think the problem is you don't want to see what I am trying to say. I AM trying to grow and improve, I am not trying to stay in one place.

Playing bluegrass banjo is athletics for your fingers, so like any other athlete you have to train the muscles. And you are never finished with that.

And just as importantly, the ears have to be constantly trained to hear subtleties. There is no end to this process, until we die.

pcfive - Posted - 11/27/2017:  15:02:55

Also, if you practice Cripple Creek you are practicing some of the standard licks, which will apply to many other songs.

Banjophobic - Posted - 11/27/2017:  15:22:42

quote:

---

Originally posted by pcfive

Well I think the problem is you don't want to see what I am trying to say. I AM trying to grow and improve, I am not trying to stay in one place.



Playing bluegrass banjo is athletics for your fingers, so like any other athlete you have to train the muscles. And you are never finished with that.



And just as importantly, the ears have to be constantly trained to hear subtleties. There is no end to this process, until we die.

---

I am surely trying to understand what you are saying. But I am trying to get you to see something. Using your athletic analogy, il;ets say you were trying to learn to improve your jump roping skills beyond just a very basic "flop the rope over your head and barely jump over it with your legs" movement, into say more advanced jumping like double dutch style. All Double Dutch jump roping folks have so mastered the basics of jumping that they dont need to spend hundred of hours doing that basic stuff anymore. The muscles have already been trained and they know how it works on every fundamental level. What they DO is start learning the more advanced movements, which means  spending lots of time learning those more challenging actions. The foundation was ALREADY laid with all those countless hours of basic jumping rope. This foundation  training helped them progress, but they still have the challenge themselves and push the limits to do the double dutch things. 

This doesnt mean that practicing basics is not important, heck, its means its SUPER important. Bt as you progress you have to stop spending the majority of your training time just doing things you are ALREADY great at. Its exactly like learning tio write you letters, in my earlier analogy. Once you ingrain it, you start to write,and write more effectively and with more complexity.  Sitting around all day write your ABC s will NOT prepare you for writing you first term paper. 

Ears are always open, no pun intended, to hearing subtile things. This is true for a beginner or pro. But practicing something you are already great doing , as your main routine, at is not really moving forward. Only by pushing yourself with new things can you accomplish that. And to be clear its not about going from a simple idea to super complex right away. Its a logical planned progression of gradually increasing your challenges. 

Banjophobic - Posted - 11/27/2017:  15:26:04

quote:

---

Originally posted by pcfive

Also, if you practice Cripple Creek you are practicing some of the standard licks, which will apply to many other songs.

---

Yes to some degree, but try playing cripple creek and then Home Sweet Home. They are two different songs, with different challenges. You can play CC for 5 hours a day, for  5 years with a metronome,but its not going to help you play HSH just from doing that. The things that are different and harder in HSH can ONLY be learned by learning the tune and accepting the challenges of those harder concepts in it. 

Mooooo - Posted - 11/27/2017:  16:21:39

you can use reflective practice to work on your tone (which is your goal) and when it is acceptable use what you have learned across the board and apply it to the other songs you know. Then you can use reflective practice to learn other things instead of only the search for the perfect tone...then you can revisit it whenever you feel you're slipping or are stuck in a rut with tone....go back and forth instead of just fixating on one aspect of picking.

pcfive - Posted - 11/28/2017:  07:06:13

Ok banjophobic, I agree with some of what you are saying ... however ... and I am not trying to argue, I just feel I need to understand this ... I do not completely agree with your analogies.

In this video youtube.com/watch?v=aNdVhjxBjys Kenny Ingram is just playing simple basic Scruggs style, but I would rather hear this than anything elaborate and complicated. It could take a lifetime of practicing just the basics to play like this, at this speed.

I do NOT think it's a waste of time to have this as a goal, and to spend hours on it every day! Anyone who can play like this can play any song and make it sound great.

But this is like simple basic jumping rope. There is no limit to how good you can get at, how fast and accurate you can become.

Sure it's fine if you want to progress to fancier styles of jumping rope, but you don't absolutely have to.

I do not think of Scruggs style basics as being like the letters of the alphabet. I think of them as being like words and phrases. There is no limit to how good writers can get to be at using the words and phrases of their language. They might go on to use fancier language, or they might not. Plain and simple writing can be great.

Similarly, as in that video, plain simple Scruggs style can be great.

So ... if my goal is just to be extremely accurate and to sound great even when playing fast, is it really a waste to spend a lot of time practicing the basics every day, at increasing speeds?

Banjophobic - Posted - 11/28/2017:  07:30:32

quote:

---

Originally posted by pcfive

Ok banjophobic, I agree with some of what you are saying ... however ... and I am not trying to argue, I just feel I need to understand this ... I do not completely agree with your analogies.



In this video youtube.com/watch?v=aNdVhjxBjys Kenny Ingram is just playing simple basic Scruggs style, but I would rather hear this than anything elaborate and complicated. It could take a lifetime of practicing just the basics to play like this, at this speed.



I do NOT think it's a waste of time to have this as a goal, and to spend hours on it every day! Anyone who can play like this can play any song and make it sound great.



But this is like simple basic jumping rope. There is no limit to how good you can get at, how fast and accurate you can become.



Sure it's fine if you want to progress to fancier styles of jumping rope, but you don't absolutely have to.



I do not think of Scruggs style basics as being like the letters of the alphabet. I think of them as being like words and phrases. There is no limit to how good writers can get to be at using the words and phrases of their language. They might go on to use fancier language, or they might not. Plain and simple writing can be great.



Similarly, as in that video, plain simple Scruggs style can be great.



So ... if my goal is just to be extremely accurate and to sound great even when playing fast, is it really a waste to spend a lot of time practicing the basics every day, at increasing speeds?

---

I think the real hangup here is your use of "fancy" and "elaborate ". I'm not advocating, and never have, that anyone should ignore Scruggs style or see it as something basic. It is the pillar of all bluegrass banjo playing, period. No where in my comments have I even hinted d or suggested that reflective practice is about getting fancier or learning other styles. It's ONLY about looking at where you are right now, identifying what you are weakest at and spending more time trying to remedy it. I have said probably over a dozen times now that if you are really weak at backwards rolls, for example, spending all you practice time doing other rolls beside this is not going to help you. Avoiding focus on the stuff you are weak at and not practicing it won't work. 

Your reflective practice could be a simple roll or chord shape you aren't good at, if you are a beginner, or it could be the most complex solo or lick known to man if you are an advanced player. It doesn't matter what level we are at. The idea of reflective practice is to find where you weaknesses are and spend extra practice time fixing it, that's ALL it is. The analogies were to help you see that to get better you have to identify where you need to focus you attention, to improve. To get better at Scruggs style as in Kennys video example, you cannot just learn to play a couple basic things and then play like him. What he is doing is not beginner level Scruggs. Anyone who wants to play that must push themselves and find the weak links in their playing chain.

in teaching over the last 27 years I have seen folks do what I say human nature, which is to keep playing the same stuff over and over, in practicing and it almost always things they already DO WELL. It's gratifying to hear yourself playing something well, no doubt and there's nothing wrong with doing that. But your practice time isn't about always playing stuff you can nail and then patting yourself on the back about it. It's about looking at the good, the Bad and the ugly of it. Then, you start fixing the bad and making it less ugly. That is all, all, this thread is about. My analogies must have been bad or you have misunderstood the thread itself. Either way, what I jut said in that last paragraph is what it's about. If you don't do any reflection PC but continue to play the same stuff over and over, stuff you have already gotten good at, then you might want to try reflecting and changing your approach. If not  good luck and happy picking with whatever you do. 

I think I've said enough in our particular conversation so I'm out. 🤓

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 11/28/2017:  07:35:22

PCfive,
Can you play what the Big K did there note for note?
ken

pcfive - Posted - 11/28/2017:  08:07:12

quote:

---

Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom

PCfive,

Can you play what the Big K did there note for note?

ken

---

I think so, but if I try to play it that fast it won't be accurate. So the reason I can't understand banjophobic is there aren't any specific rolls or licks I feel I need to improve on. I need to improve the basics in general.

So I don't know how to apply the reflective practice idea to someone like me. I have been playing long enough to have learned the basics, so I don't need to improve at the backward roll, for example.

I still start metronome practice at 60 bpm, even though it's easy to play that slow. I gradually increase it to 130, where it starts getting harder to be accurate.

I jam with youtube every day, playing backup and instrumental breaks. A lot of the time I am playing along with songs I know, and playing rolls and licks that I know. So maybe it isn't reflective enough? I have no idea. 

pcfive - Posted - 11/28/2017:  09:59:15

I know banjophobic gave up on me, but I had another thought about this. I had tried learning Home Sweet Home from tabs years ago, but never memorized it. So today, I decided to see if I could plug together some Scruggs style basics and play it. And yes, it was easy, so much easier than trying to memorize a tab.

I got this advice years ago at this forum. They said to avoid tab, and learn to play by ear. They said Scruggs style is a language and once you learn the vocabulary, you can just plug the components together to play anything you want.

So THAT is why I think I should just keep on practicing the basics, most of the time. Learning new songs is easy, so I don't spend much time on it.

I feel like I am doing reflective practice, as long as I try to play better every day, even if I am practicing the same old things.

I know banjophobic disagrees, but this is what I think. Maybe someone else can convince me I'm wrong.

chuckv97 - Posted - 11/28/2017:  10:45:04

It was “easy” to just try play HSH on the spot?! Wow, you must be supremely talented. Could you post a sample of your efforts?

Laurence Diehl - Posted - 11/28/2017:  10:57:05

No need, chuckv97 . She already has bigK down note for note.

pcfive - Posted - 11/28/2017:  11:50:50

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laurence Diehl

No need, chuckv97 . She already has bigK down note for note.

---

Oh here comes the nastiness. I wondered how long it would take.

I never said I had it "down note for note." I said what he plays in that video is all standard basic Scruggs patterns. I said I know the basic patterns, but could not play them accurately at that speed.

The point should have been obvious -- I need to keep practicing those same old patterns, until I can play them accurately even at fast speeds.

pcfive - Posted - 11/28/2017:  11:55:28

quote:

---

Originally posted by chuckv97

It was “easy” to just try play HSH on the spot?! Wow, you must be supremely talented. Could you post a sample of your efforts?

---

Yes it is easy, if you understand the basic patterns and chord shapes.

They used to recommend this approach years ago, at this forum, and that is why I learned it. There were some old-timers here who told us beginners to stop using tabs, and to focus on back up and playing by ear.

They used to say bluegrass banjo is a language, and you just have to learn the vocabulary. You can put the basic components together to play any song.

I realized they were right, and that is what I do. It is very different from learning a classical style.

They don't seem to be here anymore, and their approach doesn't seem to be recommended here. 

THAT is what I was trying to explain. 

If you learn the basic components you can play anything. But there is always the challenge of trying to get perfect tone, timing and rhythm. That is ALWAYS what I work on every day.

Doug Knecht - Posted - 11/28/2017:  12:21:29

I think practice has to be fun too. Or else it becomes a burdensome chore. Have fun at your practice routine, make sounds that you know sound good, make sounds you know don't sound good, but have fun at it. This fun motivates you to keep practicing and doing rolls that you need to do.

Laurence Diehl - Posted - 11/28/2017:  13:07:58

quote:

---

Originally posted by pcfive

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laurence Diehl

No need, chuckv97 . She already has bigK down note for note.

---

Oh here comes the nastiness. I wondered how long it would take.

I never said I had it "down note for note." I said what he plays in that video is all standard basic Scruggs patterns. I said I know the basic patterns, but could not play them accurately at that speed.

The point should have been obvious -- I need to keep practicing those same old patterns, until I can play them accurately even at fast speeds.

 

 

 

---

Just responding to what you said. No nastiness intended.

pcfive - Posted - 11/28/2017:  13:24:37

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laurence Diehl

quote:

---

Originally posted by pcfive

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laurence Diehl

No need, chuckv97 . She already has bigK down note for note.

---

Oh here comes the nastiness. I wondered how long it would take.

I never said I had it "down note for note." I said what he plays in that video is all standard basic Scruggs patterns. I said I know the basic patterns, but could not play them accurately at that speed.

The point should have been obvious -- I need to keep practicing those same old patterns, until I can play them accurately even at fast speeds.

 

 

 

---

Just responding to what you said. No nastiness intended.

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No nastiness whatsoever, and no sarcasm either. I almost can't believe it's an online forum, how nice you all are, always.

Laurence Diehl - Posted - 11/28/2017:  13:35:37

quote:

---

Originally posted by pcfive

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laurence Diehl

quote:

---

Originally posted by pcfive

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laurence Diehl

No need, chuckv97 . She already has bigK down note for note.

---

Oh here comes the nastiness. I wondered how long it would take.

I never said I had it "down note for note." I said what he plays in that video is all standard basic Scruggs patterns. I said I know the basic patterns, but could not play them accurately at that speed.

The point should have been obvious -- I need to keep practicing those same old patterns, until I can play them accurately even at fast speeds.

 

 

 

---

Just responding to what you said. No nastiness intended.

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No nastiness whatsoever, and no sarcasm either. I almost can't believe it's an online forum, how nice you all are, always.

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So - does that comment count as sarcasm? What you said is down here in plain text for all to see.

No need to be so defensive - bad day at the office?

I'm out.