greenbriar - Posted - 10/09/2016:  07:28:44

Now that I have my Sullivan V35 sounding better than ever...I am considering trying a skin head. I saw an article once that Pete Wernick uses them.   It would be tough to need make an adjustment just before a jam and bust a head. Or get on stage and find your banjo not sounding up to par.  Perhaps, I am not a candidate for using a component that can vary with the humidity.  Skin head / Scruggs style pickers /  who use skin heads /what can I expect?

mikehalloran - Posted - 10/09/2016:  07:37:32

In relatively dry, moderate climates like where I live, they're easy to maintain. Even that's not a guarantee.

In humid climates, they can be a royal pain. Waterproofing compounds can help but nothing's certain there either. 

I would never have one on a touring banjo. 

Edited by - mikehalloran on 10/09/2016 07:40:36

Tim13 - Posted - 10/09/2016:  07:43:04

And, there is a reason the first generation of pickers abandoned skin heads as soon as plastic heads came to the market. 

I think the only time I'd ever consider one, would be for a banjo that never left my house, and was climate controlled year round. 

Tim

mikehalloran - Posted - 10/09/2016:  08:03:22

Yep. Try the following: remove and replace the resonator. Do it again. And again. And again and again. Easy? You can consider a flesh head. Don't like lining up the four thumb screws with the brackets every time? Rethink this. 

Top tension brackets were invented to make head maintenance easier. Dowel stick Vegas and Bacons etc. are easy, also, with their center screw. 

I like skin heads and have them on a few of my banjos. Nothing sounds like a thin, tight head tensioned right below the breaking point. 

Edited by - mikehalloran on 10/09/2016 08:04:30

dculgan - Posted - 10/09/2016:  08:05:51

I have recently semi-retired from playing a lot gigs outdoors, Spring through Autumn, for 20 years and  I think I know what it takes to perform on a skin head banjo to an audience. In my case these were big pot, "minstrel style" banjos strung with gut. These performances required I use a period correct set-up but I often thought that if I were performing a different style, such as old time stringband where there wasn't a need to use a skin head for other reason than tone, that I would surely travel with at least one weather king banjo. Dave

collegiate - Posted - 10/09/2016:  08:09:54

Over the last four years I have been in and out of calf skins on my open back and resonator. I have now been with them now for about six months. The open back stays mostly in tune with humidity varying from about 60% to 90%. The resonator tends to go off by about a semitone across each of the strings however as I only play for my own amusmentit it really it is not an issue for me. I prefer the tone produced by the calf skins.
The heat off my belly generally puts either banjo in tune after I have been playing fo about 20 mins

mikehalloran - Posted - 10/09/2016:  08:27:17

Ever see an old banjo with what looks like Christmas tree lights inside? The bulbs were there to keep the head dry. 

Usually you'll see these in a tenor or plectrum played in a dance band. 

Edited by - mikehalloran on 10/09/2016 08:29:34

Fathand - Posted - 10/09/2016:  08:36:55

It is easy to re-tune your banjo if your head goes slack or tight especially since we now have readily available electronic tuners cheap. The issue is loss of tone and volume and changing of string height set-up, requiring the head to be put back to optimum tension.

A hair dryer or hand dryer can be a big help if your head goes slack from humidity. If you make note of your string deflection at the bridge you can dry until you get back to that using ruler/quarter or similar methods.

TNCowboy - Posted - 10/09/2016:  09:34:28

I've put a Balch/Stern hide head on a pre war conversion a few months ago. I do have to monitor the head tension and it took a bit to settle in, but the tone is worth the effort so far. For those so inclined, John Balch does an excellent job of pre-mounting them; craftsmanship is first rate.

Michael

BDCA - Posted - 10/09/2016:  14:14:21

I have been using a 12" Balch head on my Ramsey for a couple of years. I frequently fly from Tucson to Chapel Hill with few issues. It takes very little effort and time to quickly tweak head tension 1/8 turn either way.

I have used all types of plastic heads and there is no better sound than a skin head on a claw hammer banjo.

That being said, I spend the past 4 months traveling in a small RV, including the Virginias, Martha's Vineyard and Maine.and opted to use a plastic head due to drastically variable conditions in bot temperature and humidity. Once I got back to the West and conditions were stabble I replaced the head with a Balch calf head. Once the head settled, almost no adjustment needed.

I wouldn't use skin on a resonator banjo but you cant beat it for the perfect Old Time sound that I prefer.

Bob

bartmcneil - Posted - 10/10/2016:  06:14:30

I have recently switched all my banjos to skin heads and love to tonal difference as compared with plastic (Mylar).



If I were playing professionally i would most likely have one banjo with a plastic head but I do not regard adjusting head tension as a problem. In my opinion there is a tonal quality which cannot be duplicated by a plastic head. Not that a plastic head sounds "bad", but if you want to duplicate the sound of an early 20th century banjo, skin is the way to go.

Edited by - bartmcneil on 10/10/2016 06:20:50

carlb - Posted - 10/10/2016:  06:37:25

I deal with the change in the tightness of the head, and keeping the action at the same height, by using different size bridges. It takes me about a minute to change a bridge.

BDCA - Posted - 10/10/2016:  06:59:15

Same here Carl, I carry a bag of bridges, each with the height written on the bridge so if I need to raise he action, I look for a taller bridge and vice versa. I can easily change bridges and tighten heads on stage. BTW Carl, enjoyed playing with you at Clifftop.

Bob

Banjophobic - Posted - 10/10/2016:  07:14:13

You'll find far more touring oldtime/minstrel players using skin heads than touring bluegrass and tenor players. The difference in tension and tone changes are nearly as problematic for them as for bluegrass players. If you intend to play a BG style banjo, you can try it. If you play in very consistent humidity and temperatures most of the time, you probably won't have any issues with the head. But realistically if you travel outside that "bubble" you'll see why most BG players opt for plastic.

bartmcneil - Posted - 10/10/2016:  09:07:41

When playiing a banjo I normally keep a banjo wrench in a pocket. I enjoy tweaking the banjo for better action depending on humidity.

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 10/10/2016:  09:14:09

quote:

---

Originally posted by greenbriar

 

Now that I have my Sullivan V35 sounding better than ever...I am considering trying a skin head. I saw an article once that Pete Wernick uses them.   It would be tough to need make an adjustment just before a jam and bust a head. Or get on stage and find your banjo not sounding up to par.  Perhaps, I am not a candidate for using a component that can vary with the humidity.  Skin head / Scruggs style pickers /  who use skin heads /what can I expect?

---

I have to ask that if your banjo is sounding better than ever, why you would bother to change. You may, in fact, come up with a sound with skin that you can't stand after playing with a mylar head.

I've encountered banjos which sounded best with skin, and others that came more alive with mylar. It depends sometimes on the banjo. That said, a Vegaphone I had once sounded great with skin, way better than with a Weatherking, and there were never any issues while that banjo stayed in southern California. When it was sold and taken to South Carolina, that same head reportedly became such a problem the new owner had it replaced. 

If you don't like hassles, and your banjo "sounds better than ever" I do believe you'd be best served by leaving well enough alone. You audiences probably won't hear any difference.

BDCA - Posted - 10/10/2016:  09:33:23

I am a touring Irish tenor player and would never dream of using a skin head on any of my tenors including Paramounts, a 1919 CE Paragon nor my GDL. Even though the Paragon came with a skin head, the sound I prefer of Irish tenor is a crisp treble with a growling G string. I used extremely tight (94-95DD)  Renaissance. Wouldn't happen with a skin head. Also the hassle of tightening or loosening requiring removing the resonator  would be an issue.

On the other hand, I would only go back to mylar on the Ramsey's under duress! 

Bob

bartmcneil - Posted - 10/10/2016:  10:20:04

I think the danger of splitting a skin banjo head is slight. Particuularly when playing clawhammer which normally requires a slightly looser head than a bluegrass player might want.

Even if, for whatever reason, you do spit a banjo head they are not expensive to buy. I normally have a couple of spare skins for just such an emergency, though I have never had one split.

johnedallas - Posted - 10/11/2016:  02:53:10

As far as tone goes, I'm definitely for a skin head. Of my five 5-string banjos, four have skin heads.



The fifth is a cheap and cheerful (but well set-up) Asian aluminium-rimmed resonator banjo. I bought it specifically for group gigs with a PA system, and fitted it with a pick-up - so I could leave the tone quality up to the sound-man. The plastic head was useful in settings with a large audience in a small room, where the humidity increases in the course of the evening, or outdoors in rainy weather.



For non-amplified group gigs, self-accompanied solo singing and banjo solos, I always use a skin-headed banjo. It simply sounds better, more "cultured".

My skin-headed banjos are a no-name, vintage open-back (nylon-strung) with a 12" head; two Windsor zither-banjos with 11 3/4" pots and 8 3/4" heads; and a J.E. Dallas zither-banjo with a 10 1/4" pot and a 7 3/4" head. Even the nylon-strung open-back can sound really crisp.



In my experience, the reaction to expreme fluctuations in humidity, e.g. in muggy, thundery summer weather, are directly proportional to the diameter of the skin head. The 12" open-back is the first to sound dull, and buzz because of a sagging bridge, whereas the small Dallas shows hardly any reaction, and the Windsors generally don't vary enough to need adjustment, though the tone may be sub-optimal (lacking brilliance) in moist weather.



At any rate, the tensioning nuts on the open-back and the tensioning bolts on the zithers are easy to get at, and an eighth of a turn all round is definitely quicker than changing the bridge, as Carl suggests! (My open-back has only 16 hooks, after all!)



I must admit that I've split the head of my open-back twice (in 50 years!). Once was when I moved it from an coal-fired Irish house to a centrally-heated German flat, and didn't play it for a long time; the other time was when I was playing a gig in a humid venue, tightened the head to get a decent tone - and forgot to slack it off again when I got home!



Cheers,

John

Edited by - johnedallas on 10/11/2016 02:56:50

ClayTech - Posted - 10/11/2016:  17:56:44

If you wax or otherwise treat the skin head, the effects of humidity are drastically reduced.

bartmcneil - Posted - 10/12/2016:  04:14:13

"How much trouble are skin heads?"

If you hate messing with your instrument I suppose a skin head can be annoying, but I find them no trouble at all.

bartmcneil - Posted - 10/12/2016:  08:43:32

My home has no climate control except for heat, So the humidity varies considerably.

My banjos respond accordingly and I always check them and adjust the skin head if necessary.. It takes roughly 30 seconds. I rarely perform publicly so that is not a problem for me.

Lyndon Smith - Posted - 10/13/2016:  05:34:49

I don't think a few seconds tuning before playing is much of a price to pay for the more mellow sound and IMHO the far superior look of real hide...

John_J - Posted - 10/13/2016:  13:31:27

I have two banjos with skin heads - - 

SS Stewart with calf skin - put it on, adjusted it and two years later have not had to readjust it at all...  

12 inch Reiter with goat skin - took at least six months for it to settle down (stretched and stretched and stretched - at least 1/2 turn each time....   must have adjusted the tension at least 12 or 15 times before it finally settled down)....   I still have to adjust it 1/8 turn (always tighter) at least once a month but it sounds good so I'll probably keep it on....   However if it ever splits I'll put the renaissance head back on....  

By the way, I always adjust using a Drum Dial so the stretching is not just my imagination.

BDCA - Posted - 10/13/2016:  14:38:19

What DD reading do you tighten the 12" goat? I aim for around 90-91 on the  Balch heads on my Ramseys

BTW, flying into RDU next Wednesday and playing in Carboro Friday..

Bob

Pete Wernick - Posted - 10/14/2016:  00:02:15

I am interested in this topic, because I started using skin heads in 2005 or so..The inspiration was the thought that my original flathead Granada made in 1988 was now 17 years old, same age as Earl's original flathead Granada was in 1951. At first I tried a Gold Star goatskin head. When I listened close to Earl's record of Dear Old Dixie (well recorded in 1951, without reverb), I could hear it was cranked pretty tight. Rich, pure, and bright. So I cranked mine pretty tight and... darned if it didn't sound quite close... richer and purer than plastic. Not by a lot, but a noticeable difference.

I decided to experiment with using a goatskin head, figuring it would be less likely to break than calfskin, maybe pretty reliable, who knows? It would need regular tightening, maybe every month or so. It lasted over a year and I changed it just cause it had stretched a lot and gotten a bit grimy (hard to clean, compared to plastic). After that, my luck turned bad with breakage. Over several years I went through quite a few heads and had to deal with some serious inconveniences as a result (such as when in a pinch I got a plastic head and while installing it, IT broke). In the last few years, goatskin heads became hard to find, so when my supply ran out, I went back to plastic. Not tragic, but I kept thinking of the cool skin head sound.

Lately I've tried some John Balch calfskin heads. The first one sounded great, but had a problem on stage due to sweat falling on the head, getting absorbed and immediately loosening the head tension. After attempts at tightening, the head broke. Not fun, but I got another Balch head on the banjo and it sounds great and is cranked tight. I will be careful to not let moisture get on the head.

My strategy is to use it for the time being while here in Colorado through the winter, but be wary of what might happen when I start traveling to more humid places where moisture can rear its head again. I intend to always travel with a replacement plastic head I can put on quickly if necessary.

I can sure see why banjo players suddenly switched to plastic heads around 1960 when they became widely available. Convenience and dependability are major. However, it will be nice to hear that skin-head richness I've come to enjoy.

Pete

Dan Drabek - Posted - 10/14/2016:  19:56:10

Pete, thanks for weighing in on this. Your experience is appreciated.

DD

Carl Arcand - Posted - 10/14/2016:  20:05:45

A good paper on the subject;ebay.com/gds/HOW-TO-TUNE-AND-C...18/g.html

John_J - Posted - 10/15/2016:  08:34:53

quote:

---

Originally posted by BDCA

What DD reading do you tighten the 12" goat? I aim for around 90-91 on the  Balch heads on my Ramseys

BTW, flying into RDU next Wednesday and playing in Carboro Friday..

 Bob

---

 Bob,  

I also use 90 or 91 on my drum dial....  

John Balch has an excellent detailed description of how to mount a skin head which includes a warning that since skin heads are a natural substance they can sometimes stretch quite a bit....  

Guess I didn't realize just how much repeated tightening this 'quite a bit' sometimes entails.    JJ

BDCA - Posted - 10/15/2016:  12:42:06

From what I understand there is a big difference between goat and calf. My latest 12" Balch calf heads required very little ongoing stretching, maybe dropping the tension ring an additional 1/32nd after a month or so of tweaking.

Bob

Crusty - Posted - 10/15/2016:  14:07:33

John generally recommends coating hide heads with SofSole, a boot waterproofer, to eliminate moisture effects.

If you can find an old Jos Rogers and Sons XXX hide head, those are stable after many years of aging and don't change with humidity, though they seem to me to get a bit tubby sounding when they get warm but a little added down force from the tailpiece cures that right away.  John has said that the Stern Premium sanded hide heads are every bit as good as the old Rogers heads but they still have to settle in.

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 10/16/2016:  17:01:24

I've had a skin head on my Ome Silver Monarch for several years. I got it from that guy in Pennsylvania who passed away a few years ago. Following recommendations on BHO, I treated it with waterproofing--I forget exactly what. It does vary somewhat with the weather, but there's a range of tensions at which it sounds good to me. I don't micromanage the head tension. If the weather is really humid, I'll use one of my other banjos. A few years ago, at Augusta Bluegrass Week, there was a window of several days when it just played and felt fantastic. I don't know whether it was the humidity, the altitude (c. 2000 feet up in the Appalachians), or what.

David M - Posted - 10/17/2016:  02:25:36

My Dad's uncles banjo band that performed at local functions from 1940 to 1980 all used skin heads. They used to acclimatise their instruments by removing them from their cases immediately on arriva then retune before starting. When I played with the only survivor back in the 80's, he used to leave his zither 5 string lent up against the fire side of his chair, tapping the vellum with his nail every now and again. He knew when it was right and wouldn't play until satisfied. I have 4 of the old band's instruments but sadly rarely play them as my synthetic headed Gold Tone is good to go all the time. Sadly for the hobbyist player, I think the modern plastic heads are far more forgiving so skin heads are used by the hardcore enthusiast.

bartmcneil - Posted - 10/17/2016:  04:18:01

Perhaps 99% of us are amateur players, myself included. 

 I switched all my playable banjos to skin heads. I have not felt annoyed by the fact that to play a banjo requires a little fussing with the head as humidity changes. I can adjust the head tension and tune the instrument in probably 45 seconds. To me the tonal difference is well worth the effort as I want my banjo to sound as close to an early 20th century banjo as is possible. As a clawhammer player the head tension is normally less than that of a bluegrass player so there is little danger of splitting a head as weather changes.

I personally don't see any good reason to treat my banjo heads with a waterproofing substance. I rather enjoy fussing with my banjo every time I play.

Edited by - bartmcneil on 10/17/2016 04:25:42

BDCA - Posted - 10/17/2016:  06:58:12

quote:

---

Originally posted by David M



My Dad's uncles banjo band that performed at local functions from 1940 to 1980 all used skin heads. They used to acclimatise their instruments by removing them from their cases immediately on arriva then retune before starting. When I played with the only survivor back in the 80's, he used to leave his zither 5 string lent up against the fire side of his chair, tapping the vellum with his nail every now and again. He knew when it was right and wouldn't play until satisfied. I have 4 of the old band's instruments but sadly rarely play them as my synthetic headed Gold Tone is good to go all the time. Sadly for the hobbyist player, I think the modern plastic heads are far more forgiving so skin heads are used by the hardcore enthusiast.

---

Having lived in the UK for several years, the humidity is relatively stable compared to the US where it can vary dramatically over  few minutes due to Central heat, a/c and altitude, as high as 8 or 9 thousand feet. I am heading to the West of  Ireland this winter for a few months.ths winter. Skin on my Ramsey but plastic on my Clifford Essex Paragon  tenor.

Bob

David M - Posted - 10/19/2016:  03:19:21

The zither banjo I mentioned above has a fairly heavy vellum, the tonal difference between fresh out of the case and an hour or so in a warm room is amazing. A dead, dull sound compared to a full loud resonance.