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pakid - Posted - 06/19/2013: 19:36:36
I'm looking to buy (maybe even build) my first banjo, and I'm pretty sure I want to go with a long neck. I do not foresee playing much with others, mostly songwriting and playing for myself. That said it does not need to be a beautifully crafted or exceptional sounding piece of art. It does on the other hand need to be enjoyable and rewarding to play.
So far I can not decide what to do. My price range of 300-400, maybe 500 is pretty excluding, and I'm not willing to budge since it is mostly for my own enjoyment.
I believe I have the woodworking skills to build a banjo. Maybe short a few tools that could be helpful. I'm leaving for college in a couple of months though and I'm afraid instrument building will not fit my timeframe. Could it be a viable option though?
Everything else in my price range seems to be banjos that have been cobbled together from other banjos and parts. Are these worth trusting? I've seen some with stew-mac pots. I'm watching one in particular that has said pot and an unknown maker for the neck. Could I maybe even do something like this myself to yield a good banjo?
There seems to be a strong following for long necks, so I'm looking forward to hearing some good advice. Thanks!
Helix - Posted - 06/20/2013: 02:48:55
Certain people seek advice, or a price range.
The number of people who have made Gibson knock offs in this country alone is a tribute indeed.
I couldn't get the longneck thing out of my system, I bought parts from Janet Davis and Gold Tone. That was in 2006, the joke is tinkering myself into a trademark in 2007. Seems like I innovated a new kind of rim.
But I worked off my coffeetable to start.
It's possible that you can build a superb-sounding instrument.
The layup rims are easier to make, but the sound they make is questionable and barely adequate. Your specs don't state performing on stage.
Cobbled up banjos are easy to build, sound good, make a few bucks on the side for people.
Then I ordered some necks form a person who builds them, a long time went by, I finally had to stop by and pick up a bunch of lumber and rims, and necks, but I got compensated for my order.
In the meantime I learned to make my own necks which was surprisingly easy.
I innovated the use of bamboo flooring for both the necks and the rims. Built ten of those so far, radical.
So be encouraged, I use a stew mac bass truss rod, and an ebony bass fingerboard from stew mac. There is a scale computer on their website to cut the extra 2 frets and the nut.
The longneck gives you 2 full octaves to play with, longnecks rule. I play bluegrass with one, I own two. Totally versatile at the jam, people don't really understand them.
Please don't splice a new piece on an old neck to make a longneck. You can buy longneck necks through Gold Tone, or someone like me, I'll keep your cost down.
I learned from the banjo hangout to make laminated necks, 3-piece, 5-piece, great stuff. Usually to make a 2x3 beam, and then cut on a bandsaw. Shaping with rasps and scrapers and a burnisher for the scrapers, science 400 years old. I have a drawing table, I suggest making some templates for the fingerboard, and a silohuoette for the side view.
Some builders of longnecks will come on here and swear to the advantages of a dowelstick inside the rim, or a bracket band. Many banjos and longnecks make music this way, but it is a throwback to the VEGA days. Most of that is personal choice.
Longnecks are built by several people these days, mine weigh less because of my rim. I can offer a rockin' 7 pounder for the road.
Don't doubt yourself, you don't sound egotistical, just capable. It depends on how much you want to do. Setup is just 5 mechanical steps in sequence. You can learn, many others have done so.
I saw a 'Clark" bluegrass rig the other day, great sound, great and heavy.
Good luck. I have some Bamboo longneck blanks that need finishing. I have a used ebony longneck fingerboard with slots cut. Frets are not hard, you would need some stewmac tools. I press mine from a drill press. Hammering is allowed.
( ))====='===::}
Edited by - Helix on 06/20/2013 02:56:17
pakid - Posted - 06/20/2013: 09:29:08
Well, Helix, there is some great advice in there. In your opinion what is the best construction for a an open pot? You must keep in mind that I do not own, not have I ever owned a banjo and my research therefore leaves me a bit confused on what some of the parts, construction methods, and techniques are.
With your experience what is the best way to go about this for $500 anyway? I would not mind building from scratch, but in two months I must be moving out of the house and I fear I might not be able to get a workshop to use. I know my campus has a machine shop, but I do not think they have any facilities to support woodworking. I really want to have this banjo to take with me.
I do lack some fine woodworking tools. Or pretty much all of them for that matter. I'm not afraid to invest a little more than 500 if it is going towards tools.
And on that list bit, is that an offer on those items? If so, what point are those neck blanks at? Do you mean it needs sanding, finishing, and hardware? Or is it a block o' wood? The idea of hewing a neck out on my own makes me a little antsy. I'm not afraid to mess up most of the time, good hard lessons come that way, on the other hand it could be an especially expensive and time consuming mistake.
And I have been watching a cobbled up banjo for sale. The seller says it has a neck from an unknown luthier made in the 1950's and a stew mac pot. Not sure about it, though. Worth looking at?
Sorry, I've got lots and lots of questions. Great stuff so far though! And awesome banjos. I need to get me one of those.
Edited by - pakid on 06/20/2013 09:40:50
mainejohn - Posted - 06/20/2013: 11:19:52
I built the neck shown in my profile photo from scratch and for peanuts: pre-shaped and slotted fretboard $45, peghead overlay $7, fret wire $4, Rotomatic tuners (traditional on longnecks) $45 for a set of 6, 5th tuner $15. The maple board I had acquired in 1975. Well-seasoned so no truss rod, and so far, it's still straight, as is the first neck I made from the same board in '75.
The pot is another story, and you can do what I did, shop for a Tubaphone pot on ebay for over your budget (I've seen them going for between $375 & $800), or you can buy an old no-name, no tone-ring pot for a lot less that may well serve your purpose. The neck was a winter project I did about 5 years ago, the second neck I had made (first one was in 1975), and it was a lot of fun. The banjo is my daily player.
pakid - Posted - 06/20/2013: 14:09:24
Hm, the money you spent to get a good neck together is compelling, but the more I think about it the less compelled I am to want to do it myself. Thanks for the input, but I now think I'm going to take building it from scratch off the table for now. Maybe one day, I'm moving away from home in two months (finally!) and will be off to college, I need to find an apartment among many other things. Just not enough time.
That said, I think I'll be buying either one already put together, or swapping a long neck on to a different pot. I've been looking at Helix's banjo's and I'm liking them a lot. I wish there was an entry model still! I'd sell one of my guitars to pick up one of those. I like the innovation, and the prices seem great for instruments that are made from scratch by hand.
Is there anything else out there? Those prices seem hard to beat. What about good pots to look for to swap a neck on to?
Someone is selling a vega tenor for 250 on my local craigslist. Good swap option?
Thanks again, my choices are narrowing quickly.
Helix - Posted - 06/20/2013: 14:22:41
I wrote mine at 2"48 AM?? I NEED MORE SLEEP.
Pete Seeger and Fred Starner and many others emptied the pawn shops of old Vega tenors and made longnecks out of them. Peggy Seeger got a Tubaphone Deluxe.
Keep searching, you're doin' great.
grm405 - Posted - 06/20/2013: 15:18:46
"Someone is selling a vega tenor for 250 on my local craigslist. Good swap option?"
"vega tenor" is not enough information. They made everything from simple no-tone ring pots to the mighty Tubaphone and Whyte Laydie's. I paid $250 for a Vega Little Wonder tenor a few months ago. About what it is worth. A Tubaphone tenor for that $250 price would indeed be a great buy. These generally go for significantly more. I paid $561 for a pot on ebay. These make great conversion banjos (long neck or regular), the reason Pete Seeger used one. The Little Wonder pots make nice conversions, but I would hold out for a Tubaphone.
Long necks seem to go for pretty low prices on ebay, but beware of those made from overly decorated Asian necks. The necks are notoriously unstable as they are made from unseasoned wood. I see a lot of really bad stuff on there.
FWIW I had a long neck and found it clumsy and difficult to play because of the unbalanced long neck and very wide fret spacing in the lower position. It was really hard to reach that first position. Hard on my left shoulder. Loved the sound, hated the pain. Sold it after a year and don't miss it. I figure if you have to capo it at the second fret to play it, why have those first 2 frets in the first place?
$300 will not get you a banjo you really want for very long unless you are very, very lucky. $500 will, with some care and a little luck.
Gerry
mainejohn - Posted - 06/20/2013: 18:16:30
With all due respect to Gerry's legitimate objections to a longneck, considering you are a singer/songwriter I think a longneck is a good option for you. I'm 5'9" and I don't find the long neck to be unwieldy. In fact, on a the rare occasion that I play a 22 fret standard length neck, the shorter neck feels very confining. I play my longneck with the capo at the 3rd fret 90% of the time, but to remove the capo and to be able to play an open E, or A in the standard C tuning, makes having the extra 3 frets very much worthwhile.
pakid - Posted - 06/20/2013: 19:41:54
And it keeps coming! Great stuff.
Good luck on that sleep, I need some more myself. Sounds like Vega Tenor with a long neck swapped on to it is a good method.
Could I get some input on some stuff I dug up on craigslist:
philadelphia.craigslist.org/ms...2008.html
Unfortunately I swore I would never buy a chrysler product. Why would one affix a hubcap anyway?
philadelphia.craigslist.org/ms...0555.html
This one pushes my budget, and that back is a curiosity.
cnj.craigslist.org/msg/3856074443.html
Above is the Vega, it has a resonator though, not sure I'm interested in that kind of tone.
philadelphia.craigslist.org/ms...9687.html
philadelphia.craigslist.org/ms...8573.html
There is also those two weymann banjos.
Sorry for the bombardment, I'm clueless here!
And I'm pretty sure the long neck is for me. I have read plenty so far about their unwieldiness, but my broad vocal range will likely be much better suited to a long neck. I'm 6' tall, with arms that belong to someone a few inches taller than that even, so the size of the banjo should not be too much an issue. Thank you for putting that out there though.
Excellent stuff!
grm405 - Posted - 06/21/2013: 06:56:48
The Vega is a Tubaphone (or possibly a Whyte Laydie, although that is unlikely). Most likely a 10 15/16" pot. It is a bargain at $250. Those make ideal openback conversions. The only problem is the time required for the conversion; it may take a while. You can buy a Eastman neck at Bernunzio's and have it installed. You can also have a long-neck made for it, but that will take longer and cost more. But if you want an longneck, that is the ultimate banjo (ala. Pete Seeger). The resonator/flange are very easily removable so it is no factor.
The only way to end up under $500 though is to do it yourself, using something like a Saga kit banjo neck, like I did. Takes some woodworking skills though, along with a few tools.
Gerry
martinsindian - Posted - 06/21/2013: 07:57:04
pakid , Right now I'm in the process of putting together a long neck from bits & peices . gold tone neck , walnut rim from a friend , schaller tuners , decent quality hardware from stewmac or ebay ( be careful , dont buy the cheapest stuff you see on ebay ) and I will be very close to the $500.00 mark when finished . Small things add up fast . Shipping on almost everything , an extra $15 for that fiberskyn skin , $20 more for that nicer tail piece , $25 for tru-oil kit to finish the rim and on and on it goes . Also don't forget that long neck cases are easy to find when you dont need one and difficult to find when your finished and want one , so theres another $100-$140 by the time it gets to your doorstep . But with all that being said I'm glad that I'm going that dirrection .
The Helix banjo guy was visiting my shop the other day and brought along his long neck ... I strummed up a couple of tunes with it and it was an ABSOLUTE JOY TO PLAY... inspires me to get mine done faster . And every review on his banjos have good things to say about him & his products ...
I know you really want a long neck but here is another approach . Buy a decent entry level open back like a Recording King RK-25 in the $400/$450 range , see how well you take to the banjo , learn all about they work and play , save $15-$20 a week and in a year you'll have about $1000 to put toward a quality long neck ... Just a thought ...
and remember ... the fact that you play music at all is much more important than how fine you play it ... enjoy ...
pakid - Posted - 06/21/2013: 08:38:53
I'm anticipating some difficulty with this, and look forward to a challenge. Building it myself was simply a little too much challenge. A conversion seems about right though.
I'm also a bit of weirdo, so weird cobbled banjos speak to my soul. That being said I think I found what I want to do, unfortunately I just looked up the location of that banjo and it is a whopping two hours from me. 4 hours to and back, that's a lot for a banjo. I'll think about it though.
I've certainly been thinking about just getting a normal scale 5 string, but I have patience (and woodworking skills) to wait and put together a long neck. I'll cherish more than any mass produced banjo anyway. As for the budget, I'm more comfortable going over 500 if it is in bits and pieces. The end product will be far more valuable than anything I bought outright. On top of that, my local luthier of choice is an awesome person, he can probably give me one on one advice to carry me through this.
Any good knowledge source in particular when it comes to the process of conversion?
Extra thanks for the banjo identification Gerry!
And awesome philosophy there martinsindian, I share the same! I certainly would not be playing much if I needed to be able to shred. I don't much other than play chords and sing. I'm inspired to quote a bit o' Vonnegut:
"The arts are not a way to make a living. They are a very human way of making life more bearable. Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."
grm405 - Posted - 06/21/2013: 09:17:28
I looked at that listing several days ago and thought it looked like a very nice banjo and a bargain. If I were in the market for a longneck I would bid on it.
Gerry
martinsindian - Posted - 06/21/2013: 09:38:43
pakid , I thought about you when I looked at that one this morning . It has a pretty sturdy rim , dual co. rods in the pot , good tension hoop , nice bridge & tail pc and if your on good terms with a local luither he can help with any issues . It will get some bids in the last 90 seconds of the auction and my guess is that it will bring about $450 , but at least it's all there and you could be playing it shortly after getting it out of the box , so good luck ... I use a service called 'auction sniper' that places bids seconds before the auction closes , seems to be about the only way to win things nowdays and I've never had a problem with auction sniper ...
pakid - Posted - 06/21/2013: 12:15:10
Thanks for the advice on that one guys!
I think I want to give it a shot, but I'm still really drawn to the conversion. Even if it takes a lot more money, I'll have on my hands a banjo that is means a lot more to me; and I will get some familiarity with the construction of these things. I'd really rather spend 600 on something that I put some effort and creativity into than 300 on something that I simply purchased.
Sorry, I'm pretty conflicted here.
Could I do the conversion all said and done for 700? There's a good 450 to get the neck and hardware all put on that vega. I think I'm going to sell a guitar to offset the cost.
Thanks again, I'm being a difficult one.
grm405 - Posted - 06/21/2013: 15:29:49
I have converted 2, a Little Wonder and a Tubaphone. I used Saga kit necks, selling on ebay for around $75 shipped. By the time you add the tuners, tailpiece (my pot didn't have one, this banjo does) and misc parts it adds up to around $250 for the conversion. Took me around a week total and required making a few jigs and the use of a oscillating spindle and 10" disc sander along with a bandsaw and a few other tools.
If you go the Eastman neck route, the necks are a lot nicer and cost $400 rather than $75. They could fit it to your pot for likely a few hundred $. You would still need the tuners ($90 or so). I used the Saga necks because they were cheap and I had one. I can always add a fancy neck at a later time. I could even change it to a longneck in the future, if I wanted to torture my left shoulder again.
Some pictures of the process are shown here:
banjohangout.org/myhangout/pho...umid=7726
The secret is using a variation of the RDS (Rudy's Dowel Stick). A lot easier than using the traditional dowel stick, easily adjustable action and impossible to distinguish from a traditional dowel stick unless you look at the tailpiece hanger.
bluestemstrings.com/pageBanjoC...ips1.html
Gerry
mainejohn - Posted - 06/21/2013: 16:33:06
Andrew (aka Pakid). You're in the Philly area. If I were you, I'd buy that 20's Vega Tubaphone on Craigs List (yes...it's a REAL Tubaphone 10 15/16") and figure out how to make a longneck or have a longneck made for it. That's a bargain, and if I were closer, I would have run over and bought it by now. You want a longneck, so stick with that desire regardless of how much anti-longneck advice you get. As I have said before, I'm 5'9 (shorter than you) and have no problem with the longer neck. The extra 3 frets open up an enhanced dimension of possibilities and once you've discovered them, it makes playing a 22 fret 5 string a confining experience. Just speaking from 52 years of banjo playing experience, for what it's worth.
pakid - Posted - 06/21/2013: 22:02:34
Need to remember to log out when I'm done!
I sent a text to the person selling the banjo. Hoping its still there. Desperately.
I'll let ya know how it goes, thanks.
mainejohn - Posted - 06/22/2013: 13:40:16
The Tubaphone for $250 seemed too good to be true. None of the others you listed would interest me if I were doing your project, but I'm partial to old Vegas: Tubaphones, Whyte Laydies, or even "Wonders" and always with the 10 15/16 pot if you're going to do a longneck. I found making my own to be extremely satisfying, and, I must say, the neck has a great feel, even though after the initial assembly, I took it apart, reshaped the neck, then took it apart and reshaped it some more.
grm405 - Posted - 06/22/2013: 14:19:38
Craig's List is filled with scams, people harvesting email addresses and phone numbers to sell to scammers. That said, I have purchased 3 banjos off it in the past 18 months, so deals do exist.
I concur on the Vegas. They make great banjos, long neck or regular, and are reasonably priced (bargains compared to Gibsons). There are always a bunch on ebay, some reasonable and some ridiculously overpriced. Expect to pay $3-350 for a Little Wonder and $600 or so for a Tubaphone. Whyte Laydies are more rarely listed, but seem to sell for not much more than the Tubaphones. My preference is for the Tubaphone, although a Little Wonder is no slouch. Someday I will find a Whyte Laydie for comparison.
Gerry
pakid - Posted - 06/22/2013: 20:11:30
Wellllllll, I'm feeling a bit down on finding a good vega for the money. I want a vega, you all have convinced me. Though the best I could find in my range so far have been mandolin banjos. To my untrained eye they look to have pretty much the same size and style pot as some other vega banjos (they look like little wonders?). Of course, I really do not know what they are worth or how they actually relate to conventional banjos.
If a vega does not end up in my price range, any other suggestions as to what is good for conversions? My price for a pot is a somewhat hopeful 300. I think that is what a good price is to accommodate my 700 total budget.
Worst comes to worst, what does it really take to build a pot? I have a very high quality miter saw at my disposal and a good deal of patience for hard work. I'd just prefer to not take that root for the time being due to the large transition I will be undergoing soon. I do not want to be s.o.l. on tools before I'm done with the project.
Thanks,
Andrew
grm405 - Posted - 06/23/2013: 07:19:38
A Little Wonder is within your price range. I paid $250 for mine (Craig's List) a few months ago. I could have probably bought a second for the same a little later from a different seller. Many mandolin banjos have small pots. You want a 10 15/16" for a Tubaphone or Little Wonder pot. If you price out the cost for parts to build a new pot you will find it probably exceeds the cost of a Vega pot, unless you roll your own metal parts.
I suggest you look at Rudy's site on building your own;
bluestemstrings.com/pageBanjoC...ips1.html
Then price out good quality parts at Bill Rickard's site;
store.rickardbanjos.com
Then make a decision on the route you want to take.
In my opinion frugality is not necessarily the best route, when what you want may only cost a little more, ie. Tubaphone vs. Little Wonder. I have both and think the Tubaphone is worth the extra few hundred $. It is not like you are talking $500 vs. $2000, more like $500 vs. $800.
Gerry
pakid - Posted - 06/23/2013: 16:14:05
Gerry,
I understand where you are coming from, but my limiting factor here is budget, then time. I'm not comfortable exceeding my budget at all, as I'm going to have a hard time finding a job that will accommodated my schedule while I'm at college. I need to balance my cash well, and I honestly would not consider anything more than a few hundred if I did not love music.
Everyone,
Bear with me: If I play my old Washburn guitar, then exchange that with my much newer and more well constructed over $1000 Cole Clark, I do not notice the difference in tone very much. Obviously the Cole Clark is the better sounding instrument. I'd rather listen to that if I was not the one playing. If I'm focused on playing, the tone differences are not going to seem very different though. I actually have preferred my Washburn lately, just because the Cole Clark needed a slight adjustment. Once my Cole Clark is back from the luthier (I'm needlessly scared of truss rods) it will be probably be my regular player again.
Now........
Does it really matter what kind of pot I put on the thing as long as it is not as dead as a door nail? I have a source now for both a neck and a vega pot at what seem to be reasonable prices. The donor of the pot could be a Vega style N, unless it really matters. Someone is selling a Weymann tenor near me, and I think it would be neat to have a banjo who's pot started in the city where I will be going to college (Philadelphia). Should I go for the Vega or the little known Weymann?
Or am I really wasting my time here by not buying an existing long neck given the above?
Thanks, I hope I'm not just making a brouhaha for no reason,
Andrew
grm405 - Posted - 06/23/2013: 19:07:30
I would buy this for $275 BIN:
ebay.com/itm/1960s-Vega-Little...57f79b287
Not only do you get a Vega Little Wonder pot, you also get tuners (look like Shallers) and a Presto tailpiece. The Little Wonder is a 10 15/16" pot and has a heavy notched tension hoop. The fact that it uses a coordinator rod makes it ideal for a hollow dowel stick conversion mentioned previously. I don't think it will last long.
Gerry
Edited by - grm405 on 06/23/2013 19:12:53
Helix - Posted - 06/24/2013: 04:46:22
Stay, hold your course, increase your need, think about it.
Yes, it does matter what kind of pot you put on there. A guy I know jams with a GDL longneck, can't hear him.
I suggest contacting Paul at the folkshop down in Tucson, he has a bevy of longnecks. He has spares and parts as well, he's a member of the hangout.
Longnecks are like ugly ducklings, back in the day, they were heavy and innovation was cutting a peghead off and extending the neck, splicing a piece in a good neck.
Now we're all grown up, it's a flock of swans, there's a user's group.
You can assemble one easily.
pakid - Posted - 06/24/2013: 13:20:57
I jumped on that banjo, so I now await arrival of my Vega Little Wonder. I'm selling a guitar to offset the purchase price now (anyone interested in a B.C. Rich Eagle Masterpiece? Probably not around here, but hell, why not ask?).
I am also wondering if I paid a fair price. In my tired state last night I purchased it without reading properly and connecting dots. I thought it was 20-30's like it said in the description. For some reason I did not notice that the title said 1960's though. I checked the serial number and indeed it is a 1960.
I paid 275, plus shipping, for a total of 307. I know it does not sound bad for an early one, but what about a 1960?
Already in contact with the folk shop actually. Working on buying a neck from them. Was going to buy a style n, too. But I bought that wonder.
mbanza - Posted - 06/24/2013: 13:48:52
If the Craigslist banjo becomes available to you you should jump on it too; If nothing else, you could double your money in about 10 minutes.
grm405 - Posted - 06/24/2013: 15:07:49
The advantage of the later model (when I first looked the title also said 20-30's also but someone obviously corrected him) is that the tuners are usable. The original came with friction tuners which some replaced with 2:1 Grovers. The tuners on yours are modern (relatively) and should work OK. The tailpiece can be used as is or drilled out for the 3rd string since you are not modifying an old Presto, just a relatively modern one. All you need are the 5th string tuner ($15) and a bridge, along with the neck and the means of mounting it. The pot itself looks identical to the older one. Keep in mind that it is still 50 years old or so.
There are replacement long necks selling in the classifieds for $200 which look good, but the seller has had problems with his stuff in the past. Might be worth the risk as he promises a return policy.
I would mount the neck using the single coordinator rod and hollow dowel detailed in Rudy's website. Stiffer and more stable than just a single steel rod.
bluestemstrings.com/pageBanjoC...ips1.html
Gerry
thefolkshop - Posted - 06/24/2013: 19:35:16
That was a 28 bracket 'Wonder'. What a deal!
martinsindian - Posted - 06/24/2013: 20:07:35
Put a good neck on it , set it up well and get a decent case for it . Lets say you end up with $720 in it and play it for 10 years . That's $72 per year or $6.00 per month to have a good banjo to play ... just enjoy the pleasures it can bring ... happy pickin'
pakid - Posted - 06/24/2013: 20:33:35
Gerry,
Thanks for the info, I was assuming the discrepancy had been missed. I'm glad it is well, and especially that I get a coordinator rod and not just a wood stick to mess with. Thinkin that this is better than any older one for that reason.
Huge thanks for giving me that lead! Who could have imagined that a man in Arizona would help another in Pennsylvania find the perfect banjo?
Come to think of it, what is up with all the Arizona people? Almost 2/3 of the people on this thread are in Arizona.
BUT I DIGRESS
Everyone,
Thanks for the help so far. The banjo is not very far away, so it should be here relatively soon. I'll let ya know.
thefolkshop,
Did ya get my e-mail about the neck?
Andrew
mikehalloran - Posted - 06/26/2013: 09:46:22
This 1927 Vega Regent, adjusted for age, is the 5 string version of your Little Wonder. It is also a kick-ass open back even with the new Fibreskyn head (not everybody's first choice). I know because I'm the one who sold it to Intermountain last year. They re-bound and refinished the original neck but the pot is as I sold it to them. Frankly, it's a bargain at the $1,450 that Intermountain wants for it.
guitarandbanjo.com/details/7570.html
You did well for your $250. I am an old long neck guy even if I can't play 'em anymore. You're getting great advice. I'm looking forward to the end result.
pakid - Posted - 06/26/2013: 13:07:35
It has arrived! Thanks again to Gerry for the lead. I have fallen deeply in love with it. It is going top be hard to take apart now.
Mike,
Cool banjo, I know five-strings were rare. I hope I can give a good end result. It is indeed good advice, so it should not be hard.
Everybody,
Some quick questions:
Should the head be replaced? It is labeled "vega plastic." Do not know the quality.
Should I disassemble totally and remove some of the rust on the brackets?
It's generally a tad more beat up than it appeared in the photos on ebay. Nothing to me that appears considerable though, other than perhaps the rust.
Oh, and although the tuners work (I think the ratio is 1:2), they do not work well and are difficult to use. (Or have I just been spoiled by more finely geared guitar tuners?) Should I replace or brave it?
Sorry for the picture bombardment!
grm405 - Posted - 06/26/2013: 19:01:52
I would replace the head with a Renaissance head. Sounds better than top-frosted for openbacks (I have them on all my good ones). The sound improved on every one when I did it. Gives a bright yet warm sound. I find top-frosted to be rather harsh and skin too mellow (not to mention a bit of PITA when the weather changes.)
I would tear it all down and polish everything (I highly recommend Zildjan Cymbal Polish). Vega hooks are infamous for losing the plating and rusting. I would NOT use anything like steel wool; you just want to remove the corrosion and tarnish, not the plating. Zildjan does this chemically and keeps it clean for years, unlike any other polish I have used. I am not a fan of "patina" on banjos like this.
If you don't want to use the tuners (look like Grovers) then you can sell them in the classifieds as they are sought after for replacements. You might get enough to buy a new set of Gotoh's from their sale, or maybe even a swap.
I would use the tailpiece and probably drill a center hole like 5-string Prestos. If you can find someone to punch it instead, that is even better
Gerry
mikehalloran - Posted - 06/27/2013: 07:47:45
If the head is good leave it alone for now. Lots of choices if you want to change it later. The correct dimension is 10 15/16" high crown but most of us prefer a medium crown like the one I used on that '27. Elderly and others will have them.
Tuners are valuable to someone looking to restore something but if replacing the neck, you want something better. Gotoh, Schaller, Waverly or 5-Star are good.
I am guessing that Presto is unmarked. Am I right or does it say Presto? (testing a theory about the chrome plated tailpieces that Vega used in the 1960s)
Clean the rust and lubricate the threads. The correct hooks and nuts are hard to find as they are not readily available in the aftermarket. If one or two are in bad shape, finding replacements won't be a problem but a few drops of oil will keep these intact for generations.
Edited by - mikehalloran on 06/27/2013 08:08:11
Helix - Posted - 06/27/2013: 14:26:24
I agree with both Gerry and Mike, but I would delay changing the head, I recently learned that a used head sounds pretty good.
I suggest you clean things up with a microfiber towel, you'll see more clearly what needs what.
Below is a picture of a road warrior's Vega Whyte Laydie, notice several types of hooks and nuts, Fred Starner's longneck.
mikehalloran - Posted - 06/27/2013: 15:55:33
A little penetrating oil 24 hours before you try to loosen those nuts will go a long way towards preserving the hooks and nuts. since the nuts are open, it's easy, lay it face down and half a drop in each hole.
The 9/32" hex open nuts made by Waverly were used on every Vega except the top tensions from 1930 through the Martin era. No one makes them unless Bill Rickard is doing a special run. It is an oddball thread, too but I don't recall it at the moment.
Fortunately, the nut wrench is available if you didn't get one with the banjo. A standard deep socket usually doesn't clear the ball but Elderly carries this Gold Tone copy of the Vega
elderly.com/accessories/items/GTT9.htm
or the three headed universal
elderly.com/accessories/items/BTW.htm
grm405 - Posted - 06/27/2013: 18:08:20
"A standard deep socket usually doesn't clear the ball but Elderly carries this Gold Tone copy of the Vega"
True. I had to drill out my Craftsman 9/32" deep socket with a 9/32" drill to get it over the ball. For some reason it was made with ridge at the end of the swaged socket about 1/4" diameter ID. Would go over a screw, but not the ball end.
As far as I can tell, the LIttle Wonder used 8-26 threads making them interchangeable with many hooks/threads (Rickards included), but my Tubaphone has 8-24 threads, making them interchangeable with nothing. The hooks are also longer. The nuts, although similar looking do not interchange.
I suggested changing the head since my Tubaphone came with a new Remo Weatherking wagonwheel head (current) and changing it to a Renaissance made a large (and favorable to my ear) change in the sound. It was overly bright and tizzy with the Weatherking and just right bright and smooth with the Renaissance.
My Little Wonder came with an Vega 2 star skin head and was just too mellow and rounded. Not to mention it required constant adjustment as the humidity changed. The Renaissance worked very well on that also.
Gerry
mainejohn - Posted - 06/28/2013: 11:20:55
Now for my opinion, for what it's worth:
Ya done good! The 1960, though arguably not the quality of a pre-1930, is superior to Vegas made a few years later. You got a 28-bracket model, which was soon to be phased out in favor or the cheaper-to-make 24 bracket model. I believe your Wonder tone ring was heavier and better made than the one they used a few years later. I bought a '23 Regent 5 string (same model as the one Mike H once owned) in 1962 for $60 and still own it. It is rock-solid and has a tone close to a Tubaphone. (See attached photos). As Mike stated, it has basically the same tone ring as yours.
I would change out the tuners in favor of Grover Rotomatic guitar tuners, which are not only a bargain (about $50 for a set of 6), they are extremely smooth (12:1 or 14:1) and are "period correct" for Vega longnecks as well as Odes. I have them on both my Vega longnecks and swear by them. However, they just don't look "right" on a standard 22-fret neck.
My own preference would be to leave the plastic head in place, as it's not only extremely cool with the Vega logo and "Jeff Moor 1960" signed by a previous owner, it will project (IMO) a Vega sound better than a newer one would do.
As I stated earlier, my comments are just my opinions. I'm an amateur, but have a 55 year love affair with Vega banjos.
mikehalloran - Posted - 06/28/2013: 15:15:20
quote:
Originally posted by mainejohn
Now for my opinion, for what it's worth:
Ya done good! The 1960, though arguably not the quality of a pre-1930, is superior to Vegas made a few years later. You got a 28-bracket model, which was soon to be phased out in favor or the cheaper-to-make 24 bracket model. I believe your Wonder tone ring was heavier and better made than the one they used a few years later. I bought a '23 Regent 5 string (same model as the one Mike H once owned) in 1962 for $60 and still own it. It is rock-solid and has a tone close to a Tubaphone. (See attached photos). As Mike stated, it has basically the same tone ring as yours.
I would change out the tuners in favor of Grover Rotomatic guitar tuners, which are not only a bargain (about $50 for a set of 6), they are extremely smooth (12:1 or 14:1) and are "period correct" for Vega longnecks as well as Odes. I have them on both my Vega longnecks and swear by them. However, they just don't look "right" on a standard 22-fret neck.
My own preference would be to leave the plastic head in place, as it's not only extremely cool with the Vega logo and "Jeff Moor 1960" signed by a previous owner, it will project (IMO) a Vega sound better than a newer one would do.
As I stated earlier, my comments are just my opinions. I'm an amateur, but have a 55 year love affair with Vega banjos.
Oh man, Chrome plated Rotomatics on a '60s style Vega long neck ... Yea... If you look at my avatar, both my Vega and ODE came with them.
Back in the day, Grover never made a matching geared 5th peg. The Perm-A-Tension was the only option with the right button. If you wanted a geared peg, you got a Krall like my ODE. Well, now Grover does have the matching geared 5th and I have a new one in chrome. I bought 3, used 2 and have a spare. I think I paid $21. I also have a couple of used Pat. Pend. Perm-A-Tension somewhere.
Perm-A=Tension like on Pete's banjo and many Vegas
The geared version
My Avarar photo. Hmmmm.... I sold the ODE tailpiece from the PS-5 years ago - time for a new picture.
Edited by - mikehalloran on 06/28/2013 15:27:46
mainejohn - Posted - 06/28/2013: 15:44:28
"Period correct" Grover Rotomatics on my home-made made "tribute to Pete Seeger" longneck attached to a 20's 10 15/16th Vega Tubaphone. I made the neck from scratch (but I bought the slotted fretboard, installed the frets myself). Not that hard if you take the time, and very satisfying to play a banjo that has a neck made by the guy who's playing the damn thing.
pakid - Posted - 06/29/2013: 10:48:35
I seem to have caught quite a lot of interest now.
Thanks for all the advice as usual, there are more questions as usual:
Realistically how much are the tuners on my banjo worth?
Is there a good set of standard banjo type tuners for the money? I would like them more than I would like guitar tuners. Being a person who prefers grovers on their guitar, I know why they are great, but it does look kind of off with them.
Is this banjo going to be worth more if I make the neck myself rather than the gold tone? And what might it be worth? I might build more and sell them if it is viable for the money while I am in college. I can also always make my own neck later and put the gold tone on something different, too.
And finally, the gold tone long neck is cut for a bracket band. I'm having trouble finding a picture that demonstrates the anatomy of the heel on that banjo. I now that is not readily compatible, but I can make it work. It is only a minor modification to make it fit?
What would be cause to replace anything on the banjo? As far as I can tell the only issue is surface rust.
I'm going to put some liquid wrench on the nuts and order some of that cymbal cleaning polish.
As for the head, my indecisiveness will make it a tough choice. I do love that it has the name of the original owner, that is certainly a really nice touch. But is the head going to really be any good? It's 53 years old at this point if that is the original head. And what about the bridge?
Perhaps I should post a recording?
Mike, as far I can tell, there are indeed no markings on the tailpeice.
Thanks everybody, I'll start dismantling tomorrow.
Andrew
grm405 - Posted - 06/29/2013: 12:16:25
Not sure how much the tuners are worth, as I don't know what the difference is between them and the older ones. The old ones may sell for $50 or more each.
Gotoh's are far and away the most recommended tuners. I have quite a few different tuners and those are the smoothest and best. Best advice is talk to Bob Smakula as he sells the Gotoh's for the best price. He also has some old Grovers listed at high prices, so he could tell you what they are worth. He might even trade for them.
smakula.com/index.html
Neither a homemade neck or a Gold Tone neck is worth very much. You have to be good and know what you are doing to make a valuable one. You aren't going to make one and call yourself a luthier and have people beating down your door. The good neck builders have probably made hundreds at least to develop the skill. And many of those probably make minimum wage at it, if you dared to calculate.
If you add up the cost of the wood billet, fingerboard (inlaid or not), trussrod and the misc parts you are probably talking a few hundred$ minimum. Personally I would go with a Gold Tone neck and try and make one later. The Gold Tone necks are pretty good (I have a standard one on a banjo) if not pretty. You may have to cut the heel bottom off as mine was taller than the Vega pot.
The bracket band cut is just a small ridge at the bottom of the heel to fit under the band. You can easily sand it off. However, you may want to adjust the heel cut angle which means you need some means of making the cut. There have been lots of threads on this forum on jigs and methods. I have a picture of the one I made on my home page. Check out Rudy's site for a couple of these fixtures.
bluestemstrings.com/pageBanjoC...ips1.html
In fact, reading everything on his site is a good basic education in how to do it.
You don't have to change anything. However, many like the sound of the Renaissance head on openbacks. The age of the head is not important. You really don't have to replace it unless it splits (which might take decades or more) or unless you want to try something different.
You have to replace the bridge with a 5 string one. I would use a cheap one (Stew Mac sells them for $3 or so) and after you have it set up and playing, replace that with a good one. When you have figured out what height you need, let me know and I will send you one (I make them).
Gerry
Edited by - grm405 on 06/29/2013 12:17:00
Helix - Posted - 06/29/2013: 12:40:09
Grovers are 12:1 Planetary tuners are 4:1, contact me for some Gotohs, I'll make you a deal.
I spec Renn heads, they're more versatile.
I use spec necks from Gold Tone, it jumps me weeks ahead. You need seed money for a hardware set and if you are crafty, you can sell right here on the hangout. I like the no Ebay and Craigslist.
Just saying you might want to build or assemble is encouraging.
Be it known there are several GARAGISTAS who build banjos of their own design. Not hobbyists, not amateurs, warriors of all content no form.
mikehalloran - Posted - 06/29/2013: 20:20:03
>As for the head, my indecisiveness will make it a tough choice.<
You are not in a hurry. Relax. Various heads sound different. Until you have some exposure to them, why just buy to buy?
I have nothing against Ren heads. I have spec'd one for a new RK 6 string banjo that's getting a Kavanjo pickup.
Nothing wrong in preferring a 4:1 planet on a long neck. Long neck players of a certain age and affinity sort of think that Rotomatics are what goes on '60s Vegas and folk era conversions. Hey, Pete invented the long neck and he uses them, right? (yes) Frankly, I am on the young end of that scale being only 59. If I was not going for that look, I wouldn't be putting Rotos on it either.
Most of the new banjos I sell come with Gotohs - very nice tuners. Most of the the vintage Vegas that I upgrade to planets get 5-Stars or Waverly (same tuner with different housings) because it is much easier to fit the original Grover celluloid buttons that look so nice. With all the talk of the superiority of Gotoh, I have never found them to be better than Waverly or Schaller.
None of us who are dealers has recommended any of the el-cheapo sets that flood eBay. We all have access to them from our importers and would use them if they were good enough and saved us money.
Edited by - mikehalloran on 06/29/2013 20:29:24
mainejohn - Posted - 06/30/2013: 05:05:32
Regarding tuners, I'll 'fess up; I have Gotohs on two 22-fret banjos and they are the best, unless you want to go for standard Keiths, which are pricier. Good old 5-stars aren't bad either. But...unlike 59 year-old Mike, I'm 70, and was coming of age during the "folk-scare" era of the late 50's/early 60's, falling in love with the "look" of the longneck a la Pete Seeger, Bob Gibson, Dave Guard, et al, and they ALL used Rotos. Kinda the same reason why I like '55 Chevies, Mickey Mantle, and Chuck Berry.
Edited by - mainejohn on 06/30/2013 05:07:41
mikehalloran - Posted - 07/01/2013: 16:53:27
One of Dave Guard's Vegas did have Klusons - and that was just uuggllyyy... This was done as a tribute. Am I right or am I right?
thefolkshop - Posted - 07/02/2013: 08:12:09
pakid, I have an extra '60s Vega 'Folklore' neck that would bolt right on your pot. Contact me. Paul
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