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SCclawman - Posted - 02/06/2013: 15:31:54
So,
I bought some nylguts (see previous thread for more info)
I learned how to do the bowline knot - spent a few nights practicing and got that down.
The problem is the loops won't fit over my ends. The nylon is too thick to fit between each individual end. I was able to get the wound 4th around the end, but not the 3rd. I didn't try with the 1, 2, or 5 string since I couldn't get the 4th on.
I attached pictures of my tail piece. The strings on the 1st and 5th are the old strings. Even then the premade loops on those strings were hard to fit. I had to push hard to get them in between the gaps.
Is the best advice getting a new tailpiece? Is there something I'm doing wrong?
hektic - Posted - 02/06/2013: 16:14:38
I also first got nylgut strings a couple months ago, I followed Zepp's bowline knot diagram
zeppmusic.com/bowline.htm
I was also having trouble at first, but I figured out you can kindof adjust the size of the loop when your tieing the knot.
heres how mine turned out:
Hope that helps a bit
Edited by - hektic on 02/06/2013 16:17:58
Marc Nerenberg - Posted - 02/06/2013: 16:15:24
Are you creating a loop before slipping them over the end of the tailpiece? if so, that would be the wrong way to go about it.
Try slipping the string between the posts at the spot where the posts are narrowest (and the channel is thus the widest). Then bring the string up on the opposite side of the post and tie it on.
SCclawman - Posted - 02/06/2013: 16:25:23
Marc,
Yes, I was creating the loop before slipping over...i also tried to slip the string between the posts and even then they wouldn't fit...the channel is just too narrow i think on my banjo.
hektic, thanks for the pic...that was real good to see...
hektic - Posted - 02/06/2013: 16:43:38
I also created the loops before slipping them on,
Next time I'll try what Mark suggested.
Edited by - hektic on 02/06/2013 16:45:13
banjered - Posted - 02/07/2013: 08:42:42
It is pretty tight. I prefer using Bill Rickards smooth-no-burrs "no-knotts", or Fielding's tailpiece (at Elderly). I use a bowling only on the fourth string because I want two strands of the vulnerable wound string crossing over the sharp bend at the top of the tailpiece. For the other strings I just use a simple overhand knott that has a catch knott at the tip of the string such that it is caught by the overhand knott/loop. I have never had even one of these slip in dozens of knotts. Yes the no-knotts could be wider for Nylguts/nylon, but as long as there is enough metal for the loop to hang on to, and once the tension is on, it is not going anywhere. So I make all the loops first, then hook them over the posts. YMMV. Banjered
harvey - Posted - 02/07/2013: 11:37:19
I cannot see how tying your bowline knot before attaching the string represents a problem here (or more generally for that matter). Either there is enough room for the loops, or there is not, surely? Or is there another reason for your preference, Marc?
It could just be your tailpiece. I have a Goldtone banjo with a no-knot-style tailpiece that measures approx 2.1cm across the posts of the tailpiece (i.e. from the beginning of the 5th string post to the end of 1st string post, if that makes sense!). My Bart Reiter has a No Knot brand tailpiece that measures about 2.5cm across. The Reiter just about has the space for looped Nylguts; but I imagine it would be tight on the Goldtone.
Edited by - harvey on 02/07/2013 11:37:47
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 02/07/2013: 11:53:03
I use a simple square (reef) knot to create a loop in nylon strings for the banjo. It is considerably easier to tie, takes up less room and works just as well.
banjopickingman - Posted - 02/07/2013: 13:14:58
I had the same problem. The pegs on a particular cheap-o no-knot were too close together to accommodate nylguts. It makes no difference whether you tie it first or later or what type of knot you use. The space between posts was just too small for the strings to fit. I bought a cheap no-knot tailpiece from Elderly which worked fine.
cbcarlisle - Posted - 02/07/2013: 16:13:14
Bought some nylguts - need help putting them on
I always figured everybody did it the same: one leg at a time.
It's been too many years since I last got my knots in a twist; I can't remember whether the snake comes out of the hole and goes around the tree or vice versa.
But, seriously, folks. I just make an overhand knot at the end and tighten it down to make a "ball," so it won't pull through, and make another overhand (single) loop. I've never had any trouble in the past dozen years.
Marc Nerenberg - Posted - 02/07/2013: 18:17:59
quote:
Originally posted by harvey
I cannot see how tying your bowline knot before attaching the string represents a problem here (or more generally for that matter). Either there is enough room for the loops, or there is not, surely? Or is there another reason for your preference, Marc?
...
If you look at the picture of his tailpiece, the posts appear to be narrower further down, thus leaving room to slip the string between the posts closer to the banjo than at the tip of the post. My theory is that he would be able to get the string around the post if he inserted it at the bottom of the post, instead of trying to squeeze it through the narrow channel at the tips of the posts.
There may still not be enough room at the bottom, but there's a greater chance that he would succeed with my method in getting the string on than with the method he is using.
ClayTech - Posted - 02/07/2013: 18:19:10
I have a no-knot, too. I just loop the string around the post, wrap the end twice around the string going up, then twice going down and slip the end through the loop directly above the post. It all cinches tight. Kind of like tying on ukulele strings, but with an extra loop.
maryzcox - Posted - 02/08/2013: 06:09:44
If you think nyl guts are complicated -- try tying on the big wound strings on a cello banjo. It usually takes two of us to do it :)
Mzc
jmoathout - Posted - 02/08/2013: 06:10:38
Patrick "Doc" Huff uses a Surgeon's Hand Tie knot as illustrated on his #169. I had to replace a sting and traced it out on paper, then made the knot. It was easy to secure the string around the tuning peg first and then make the knot at the tailpiece . It cinched up nicely.
SCclawman - Posted - 02/08/2013: 07:08:41
quote:
Originally posted by banjopickingman
I had the same problem. The pegs on a particular cheap-o no-knot were too close together to accommodate nylguts. It makes no difference whether you tie it first or later or what type of knot you use. The space between posts was just too small for the strings to fit. I bought a cheap no-knot tailpiece from Elderly which worked fine.
This is definitely my problem.
I just bought a new tailpiece from Rikard instruments. can't want to get it and see how that works out.
japus - Posted - 02/22/2013: 15:09:48
If space is tight and nylon strings can be laced around the slot......string it in the slot, then tie a clinch or improved clinch knot.
I use this knot and it works for me, I never lost a fish on any knot I tied...LOL
I never went fishing....LOL
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 02/22/2013: 15:22:40
quote:
Originally posted by cbcarlisle
Bought some nylguts - need help putting them on
I always figured everybody did it the same: one leg at a time.
It's been too many years since I last got my knots in a twist; I can't remember whether the snake comes out of the hole and goes around the tree or vice versa.
But, seriously, folks. I just make an overhand knot at the end and tighten it down to make a "ball," so it won't pull through, and make another overhand (single) loop. I've never had any trouble in the past dozen years.
Hey, hey. Watch the language. Children could read this!
J-Walk - Posted - 02/22/2013: 16:25:28
I'm anxiously awaiting the ending of this story. The new tailpiece should have arrived from Canada by now.
What's the verdict, Travis?
SCclawman - Posted - 02/24/2013: 16:59:42
J-Walk,
This story has a great ending!
The new tailpiece arrived about a week ago. I hadn't had time to put it on until this weekend. We drove and visited my parents and my dad helped me put it on yesterday. I got the strings on there, and it was just about as easy as it could be. The tailpiece was the biggest issue.
Now my issue is trying to find a way to play in D or A. I tuned up the 5th string to A b/c I didn't want to put it under the spike, and I don't have a 5th string capo. It didn't take long for the string to pop. Fortunately, I had enough string left to tie it off again. Lesson learned!
Here are a few quick first take recordings that I did tonight to try it out and see how it sounds recorded.
harvey - Posted - 02/25/2013: 11:25:39
Sounds great.
Sorry to hear of your problem with the 5th string. Personally, I've tuned up and down from G to A many times without a problem. Maybe I've been lucky -- but, equally, maybe you have been unlucky. Perhaps others can share their experiences.
J-Walk - Posted - 02/25/2013: 12:17:49
Sounds good, Travis.
Like harvey, I've tuned that fifth string between G and A many times, without breaking one. But I have broken several strings while putting them on. In my experience, if they survive the installation, they rarely break.
Where did yours break, at the tailpiece or at the tuner? I once had one break right in the middle -- which leads me to think it was a defective string.
SCclawman - Posted - 02/25/2013: 13:14:35
John,
It broke at the tailpiece.
I might work up the nerve to try it again. It happened on about the 2nd song after tuning to the A. The strings had been on for less than an hour and were still in the process of stretching.
SCclawman - Posted - 02/25/2013: 13:24:41
Also, these are the Chris Sands strings. Don't know if that changes anything.
Todd Treadway - Posted - 02/27/2013: 21:16:29
From the recordings, you seem to have had no problem adjusting to playing Nylguts. Wonderful playing, as always! just wondered if it really was no problem, or if you needed to adjust your playing style at all?
SCclawman - Posted - 02/28/2013: 04:20:23
Hey Todd,
I did not feel that I had to adjust playing style at all. It's been a lot of fun playing with them!
Ho C Ying - Posted - 02/28/2013: 17:32:27
I think nylguts sound best on thin rim banjos, like S.S.Stewart.
