stanleytone - Posted - 07/15/2011:  05:06:57

it wasnt a hinderance to bela fleck either

quote:

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Originally posted by steve davis

Tab has never been a hindrance to me.

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Jim Yates - Posted - 07/15/2011:  07:30:13

quote:

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Originally posted by Rich Weill

quote:

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Originally posted by Old Hickory

Tab is just numbers and lines on paper. Those numbers and lines aren't holding you back from learning your chords and progressions. They're not holding you back from developing an ear. They're not making you look at them when you could be listening to slowed down music in headphones and trying to figure out for yourself what's going on. They're not keeping you from seeking out answers elsewhere to your questions about music. The tab isn't making you use the tab. The tab isn't keeping you from hearing what you're playing and making connections to what you've already learned and heard. The tab isn't making you use the tab or freeze up when you don't have it or forget what's in it.  The tab isn't doing or responsible for any of that.

Tab is, was and always will be about transmitting the mechanics of banjo playing: play this string at this fret for this long, now play this string at this fret for this long, etc.

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I think there is at least one area in which tab itself has changed the way banjo music is played and, in my personal opinion, done so detrimentally.

A very strong case can be made that tab "is, was and always will" misrepresent the rhythm of songs it "transmits" -- and has changed the rhythm of these songs for the worse as a result.  Tab notates an 8-note measure as 8 notes of equal duration, regardless of whether they actually are (or may be) played with a long-short-long-short bouncy rhythm.  Tab (unlike sophisticated standard notation) has never paid attention to rhythmic subtleties.  Consequently, banjo music has become progressively less bouncy and more metronomic as players conformed their playing to the simplified, even-value way in which tab represented (or, rather, misrepresented) the notes of a measure.

****************************************************************

Rich is correct in saying that subtleties of rhythm are not usually indicated in tab, although I've seen and written swingy tabs with an indication that 2 eighth notes should be read as triplets with the first 2 notes tied.  This is also true in most standard notation.  If we indicate every variation in the notation, it becomes very cluttered and hard to read.  The same is true for fiddle tunes.  Many of the trills and ornamentations are left up to the player and the basic tune is written in the book or lead sheet. I don't believe most musicians rely solely on the tab sheet or music notation to know what bluegrass or old time or jazz... should sound like.  Of course you should listen to whatever genre of music you're interested in playing.

   I sometimes use a lyric sheet when I'm learning a vocal part.  I use it only until I can sing the song without looking at it.  I would never go on stage with a sheet of paper, lyrics, tab or standard notation in front of me.   I realize that I could learn the lyrics, and I often do, by listening to the recording, but the lyric sheet is a learning tool just like tab or standard notation.  I don't think everyone should use tab.  From reading the many threads on the topic, it's obvious that some folks get by fine without it, but please don't say that no one should be allowed to use it.

  There are people who have the same attitude about the use of capos.  I don't care how you learned it or what you use to get the sound; if it sounds good, it is good.

Edited by - Jim Yates on 07/15/2011 07:39:02

Michael Smith - Posted - 07/15/2011:  08:08:43

quote:

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Originally posted by Anjie

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​I do not disagree with you; ​if I conveyed that I thought tab was useless as a learning tool, I apologize.  As most of the posts on this thread have mentioned, it is a wonderful tool.

My original post was intended to be a total self-congratulatory pat on my own back - a celebration that I was starting to make the transition away from being one of those "banjo learners who simply cannot remember how to play their lessons or the new tunes their teachers have given them".

As someone who doesn't really have a clue as to what the heck she's doing, it was a big deal to begin that transition and not  have my eyes glued to a book.  When I bought the Murphy Method DVD,  I was able to have a song translated to me in terms of "do a forward roll and then a backward roll in this chord and then do the same thing in this other chord".  That was liberating to me.  I WANT to be able to play along with fellow players, I WANT to be able to pick out pieces of a song by ear, I WANT to be able to improvise and customize and create.... for me, I cannot do any of these things if I am incapable of looking away from the tab.

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Ahhhhhh, now I see the light.  :-) I am with you Anjie regarding the different between learning a song via tab or via something like the Murphy method. Of course if someone can never look up from the tab, that would suck for sure. But when I read comments that tab is bad, etc etc, I just can't seem to understand what the big deal is. it's just a way of representing the picking and fingering. I will not toss my tabs of songs that I learned and then don't pay for a while. I want to be able t go back and be reminded how it goes sometimes.

I applaude you for your breakthrough. But save your tabs. You might want to look back some time. Or send one to a friend.

I wonder if banjotom2 feels like he is in purgatory.  :-)  (what the heck is purgatory supposed to be anyway?)

overhere - Posted - 07/16/2011:  03:06:10

I being one who wasn’t able to use tabs probably as someone else above mentioned it takes a lot of concentration on two things at once and could be my problem as well with A.D. plus my inpatients.
So I can’t really say tab is good or tab is bad. I do however think this.
When engaging into a music form such as bluegrass as is with other forms of music such, and the form is really based more on improvising then in written form there should be a starting point but there should be a cut off point as well. I think after learning chord progressions, basic roll patterns and how those roll patterns are used to open spaces for melody notes and learning what bluegrass music is which leads to the freedom it provides as in some forms like jazz improvising then that is the time to let tabs go. That to me is the only purpose of tabs.
A lot of us older folks way back had to learn from the seat of our pants. We were either taught rudiments from those who knew the music or we adapted with what we already knew from our backgrounds in music. Which by I mean we were familiar with the sounds of country and mountain string music. It was part of our everyday lives. If you lived in rural America your radio played country music. A lot of country music was repetition by which I mean often the same songs done by different artists in their own particular styles and the way they chose to perform them. Country had an element of freedom attached. Which thank god allowed for anyone with some talent to reproduce in their own way of interpretation. That’s why country was so appealing to those rural folks. After the radio show was over, someone could pick up a banjo, or guitar, fiddle and have their own radio show right in the kitchen with friends around a table singing playing and having fun while getting loopy on a dozen cups of coffee..
I am not denying that the banjo has been taken to higher levels all I’m saying is that the banjo (bluegrass) most of us love and enjoy and we do appreciate the Bela Flecks and those who take it to the epitome of musicianship, it is still majority a grassroots down to earth rooted music meant for the freedom it provides.
Every so often some one will come along and play an old song a brand new way. It is being played by the person who threw his tabs away. you can bet on it.

steve davis - Posted - 07/16/2011:  03:36:10

You don't need to get away from tab to be able to improvise.They are just two different skills.
I grew up playing country music by ear,but later I found tab which unlocked the doors to how to use the finger picks and phrasing of bluegrass.
Tab was my blueprint for how to pick a banjo since nobody around here knew how to do that or show me.

Now,many years later,tab still shows me how a tune goes so that I can then change it to what pleases me.
Nobody has to throw tablature away.Take what you like from tab and change it to suit your style.

Don't memorize it and play it that way for the rest of your life.
I can't remember exactly how a piece of tab goes after I've played the tune on my own and personalized it for my taste.

overhere - Posted - 07/17/2011:  03:11:38

"Nobody has to throw tablature away.Take what you like from tab and change it to suit your style"
then throw it away hhaaah...lol, only kidding
I wasn't saying it was useless I was only encouraging those who find it impossible to use. I never taught banjo. actually I never ran into anyone around here that wanted to learn it but I did long time ago teach a lot of friends country guitar. As I had no formal music back ground it was all hands on teaching them chords then showing them where to play and how to get melody notes and some about tempo and rythems. no tabs just showing them live. Most of them went on to be better musicians then me hahah. seriously they did.

steve davis - Posted - 07/17/2011:  03:57:52

There is more than one way to learn how to play good music.My Dad taught me how to play by ear.He played pedal steel,guitar,banjo,piano and even clarinet and saxophone by ear.
He showed me how to hear chord and key changes and how to stay with wherever the lead was going,even if they had timing problems.Great lessons in real life playing situations.

My Mother played piano by reading music and didn't play by ear.Dad used to give her a hard time about not being able to play by ear,but they (we) played music together at home for years.He'd request something from her sheet music(country,folk or popular music) and I would play along on banjo or guitar.
I got advice from both of them.Ear playing advice from Dad and reading music from Mom.

We also had a very talented band teacher in school where I played snare drum by reading drum notation from the 5th grade to the 12th in concerts and parades.
We also have a very musical Advent Christian Church in Port Clyde.Most of my relatives were and are very musical people so I was treated to great musical experiences from different directions...very fortunate.

When I first saw a piece of tab I found it very simple to sight read it correctly and like to help people see the simplicity of using tab.

steve davis - Posted - 07/17/2011:  05:25:59

Tab will never make sense until you can read time correctly and easily.

 I like to recommend taking a few snare drum lessons to get a clearer understanding of reading time and maintaining good rhythm.

Edited by - steve davis on 07/17/2011 05:29:30

o2playlikeEarl - Posted - 07/17/2011:  07:04:28

I used tab to basically learn a melody but there isn't really a 'wrong' way to play a song. Unless your goal is to play a song EXACTLY like Earl, Sonny, J.D. etc. but they never play a song the same way twice so why should we? As long as the melody is recognized, how can it be 'wrong'?

Old Hickory - Posted - 07/17/2011:  08:30:59

quote:

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Originally posted by o2playlikeEarl

As long as the melody is recognized, how can it be 'wrong'?

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Because harmony is as important as melody. Because what goes on between the melody notes represents a player's thinking about music and helps define their style and approach.

I'm not saying that anyone needs to exactly reproduce any other player's version of any song. And I'm not saying that playing the song differently than the way they played it is wrong.

I'm saying that when you can't find the way on your own, tab can be your road map to a big wide world of banjo between the melody notes.  I think I've said before that when I can't figure something out or don't have the time, tab shows me quickly what's going on.

A great example of this is the tab book to Bela Fleck's "Drive" CD. A real eye opener. For most of the material, once I determine the key I can work out the chords and  easily find the "melody" notes for myself.  I can play perfectly acceptable versions.  But I can hear they lack something.   Until I saw the tab, it wasn't clear to me what he was doing with his right hand.  Or the alternative tunings he was using.

And this gets to another, similar, point.  I rely on a few certain right hand patterns or techniques for a lot of my playing - in particular my improvising.   Tab helps show me other things I might not discover on my own.  The rolls Alan Munde uses on "How High the Moon" and the inside type of forward-backward roll Bela Fleck can do for many measures in a row without ever once touching the fifth string.

In the end, I'm using tab to help increase the number of things I can call on when I'm out there playing the real world - without tab.

Richard Dress - Posted - 07/17/2011:  09:06:33

To continue in the direction Steve Davis is going, the melody notes and the filler notes are not really that important.  Most of them can be moved around or substituted, or even left out altogether  The tabs of Earl Scruggs, Ralph Stanley, and Eddie Adcock all playing the same song can look very different.  (Listen to their versions of "Handsome Molly" atn my homepage.)  What is important to the tune sounding correct is how the spaces between the notes are treated, and tab doesn't show that at all.  Nope, not even one little bit.  Of course, I don't play much melodic/chromatic stuff and over there the rules may be different and only the notes are important--I can't say; I am just talking about regular three finger picking..

One of the best uses of tab (other than for banjo basics) is to get the exact note-for-note transcription of, for example, JD Crowe playing famous simple Jimmy Martin breaks.  Learn the tab and play along with the original cut.  If you can match up the notes at the right time, then you will learn something useful:  how JD thought about the spaces between the notes.

Otherwise, what is the point of learning something note-for-note, something that was played that particular way only once in all eternity?  Wouldn't be better to learn how to play something different every time, something that also sounded like bluegrass?

As far as keeping old tab for reference, it can't hurt but it is a lot of work.  I have two 4-inch 3-ring binders full of old tab and about twice a year I go look something up.  The best thing is to put the tab with the iTunes entry so you can play the song and see the tab at the same time.

o2playlikeEarl - Posted - 07/17/2011:  09:22:02

quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Dress

To continue in the direction Steve Davis is going, the melody notes and the filler notes are not really that important.  Most of them can be moved around or substituted, or even left out altogether  The tabs of Earl Scruggs, Ralph Stanley, and Eddie Adcock all playing the same song can look very different.  (Listen to their versions of "Handsome Molly" atn my homepage.)  What is important to the tune sounding correct is how the spaces between the notes are treated, and tab doesn't show that at all.  Nope, not even one little bit.  Of course, I don't play much melodic/chromatic stuff and over there the rules may be different and only the notes are important--I can't say; I am just talking about regular three finger picking..

One of the best uses of tab (other than for banjo basics) is to get the exact note-for-note transcription of, for example, JD Crowe playing famous simple Jimmy Martin breaks.  Learn the tab and play along with the original cut.  If you can match up the notes at the right time, then you will learn something useful:  how JD thought about the spaces between the notes.

Otherwise, what is the point of learning something note-for-note, something that was played that particular way only once in all eternity?  Wouldn't be better to learn how to play something different every time, something that also sounded like bluegrass?

As far as keeping old tab for reference, it can't hurt but it is a lot of work.  I have two 4-inch 3-ring binders full of old tab and about twice a year I go look something up.  The best thing is to put the tab with the iTunes entry so you can play the song and see the tab at the same time.

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 I cannot disagree with any of this....well said

blindsniper - Posted - 07/18/2011:  02:57:22

quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Dress

Here is an archived discussion of going beyond tab to create melody:  banjohangout.org/topic/200821

The basic idea is to derive the melody from the lyrics, rather than memorize tab.

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 You speak the truth.  I followed this advice and am not looking back.

thetexan - Posted - 07/18/2011:  08:01:17

Hi Anjie,

Welcome to the wonderful world of banjology!

I'm afraid you are giving tabs a undeserved condemnation.  It appears that, from your description, you became dependent on having tabs in front of you to play a song.  This indicates a fundamental when using tabs.  Tabs are not intended to be used in the same way a pianist uses sheet music while playing a concerto.  Never will  you use music in the actual performance of bluegrass music.  This is a peculiarity of bluegrass banjo.  Everything you will ever do with a banjo when playing as an accompanyment instrument with other people will be memorized or impromptu.  You will never play from sheet music.

Like sheet music tabs are simply a written archive of a series of notes someone else has put on paper to relay to a future player.  When you use tab you should be simply learning what that other person did.  You either learn the whole song or parts of it.  Tabs are a wealth of banjo information, but never intended as a crutch.  The fact that you used them as such and became dependent on them as a crutch is not a tab problem, but rather an operator problem.  Please read my post (thetexan) at this thread.......

banjohangout.org/archive/148477

Learning the banjo is identical to almost all respects to learning a spoken language from a learning process point of view.  If you claimed you had learned to speak Spanish you wouldnt walk around with a book on Spanish grammer every where you went.  If you did, you couldnt say you actually speak Spanish.  You would still be dependent on the grammer book.  Learning the banjo, just like Spanish, requires internalizing the lessons so that you truly know the language, whether Spanish or banjo.

Your problem indicates that you never used the tabs to actually learn what was on them and thus became dependent on them while playing.  This isnt how it's supposed to work.  Use tabs as simply a guide to learn the music, nothing more.  In this respect tabs are no different from using Murphy where you watch and learn.  When watching someone else demonstrate something, you are forced to learn it there on the spot or else come away with nothing.....you cant have Murphy with you everywhere you play.  The same with tabs.  The fact that you DID NOT internally learn from the tabs (thus freeing you from needing them) means you did not finish the job of learning from them.  You became dependent on what was on paper and not what was internally learned and the net result was that, once again, tabs get a bum wrap.

Tabs are an indispensable resource, so much so that it makes me cringe every time the subject of Murphy and tabs come up.  Tabs are a tool that YOU SHOULD NOT SHY AWAY FROM.  Did you hear me?  DO NOT STOP USING TABS!  Instead use them correctly, the way they are intended.......as a invaluable PART of a complete, systematic, methodical learning process.  Use Murphy (read watch others demonstrate to you), use cds, listen to masters play.  The key here is to absorb, learn, internally, memorize, and yes, RECITE.

Most of what you do on the banjo will be a recitation of something you have learned.  Much of what we do is rote memory recital.  Every time you play a lick you are coldly, subconsciously, mechanically, rote reciting the thing.  Just like reciting words or phrases in a spoken language.  You apply style, artistry and technique to the hundreds of rotely memorized things you have learned.  The application of your artistry, style and technique applied to what you have learned makes you......you.  Banjo mastery always consists of these two parts, as does every other form of art for that matter.

Absorb all you can from as many different sources as you can.  Do not NOT use tabs.  This would be like a concert pianist swearing off sheet music.  The problem is misuse of tabs, not some inherent fault with tabs.  The key is to LEARN, INTERNALIZE, MEMORIZE.

If you cant play Cripple Creek without having the tab in front of you, then you haven't learned Cripple Creek.  Dont worry, this is a common problem and goes away after some introspection about process and method.

tex

Edited by - thetexan on 07/18/2011 08:03:51

Joe Larson - Posted - 07/18/2011:  08:29:30

quote:

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Originally posted by thetexan

Learning the banjo is identical to almost all respects to learning a spoken language from a learning process point of view.  If you claimed you had learned to speak Spanish you wouldnt walk around with a book on Spanish grammer every where you went.  If you did, you couldnt say you actually speak Spanish.  You would still be dependent on the grammer book.  Learning the banjo, just like Spanish, requires internalizing the lessons so that you truly know the language, whether Spanish or banjo.

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 Funny, I was just thinking about this today and how if you really want to learn a language you need to immerse yourself in the culture, live in the country whose language you're trying to learn. To play Bluegrass banjo you need to listen to Bluegrass music. A lot. Buy the CDs, Go to the festivals. Go to jams.

Here's another approach - the way I learned to play by ear - instead of picking out a melody and putting rolls around it, I played rolls and tried to find the melody inside it. So find a tune that's not too fast, something like Will The Circle Be Unbroken and play along with it. Use just one roll like Alternate Thumb or Forward-Reverse. Don't worry about playing the melody at first just play your roll and listen for the chord changes and try to find them on your banjo. When you can follow the chords and stay in time, try a different roll - don't use the forward roll until you're confident you can follow along. Then listen for the melody notes, especially on the banjo break. See how many you can find. To get some of the melody notes you'll have to change your roll. Do this over and over until you're sick of it, then go on to another tune. This isn't the "right" or "wrong" way to do it, it's just another way.

j

Anjie - Posted - 07/18/2011:  12:01:42

quote:

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Originally posted by thetexan

Your problem indicates that you never used the tabs to actually learn what was on them and thus became dependent on them while playing.  This isnt how it's supposed to work.  Use tabs as simply a guide to learn the music, nothing more...   The fact that you DID NOT internally learn from the tabs (thus freeing you from needing them) means you did not finish the job of learning from them.  You became dependent on what was on paper and not what was internally learned and the net result was that, once again, tabs get a bum wrap.

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And that, Tex, is exactly what I meant by Tab Purgatory.  It was my lack of comprehension of the tab that was detrimental, not the tab itself.  That's why I was in purgatory - I was just stuck in a zone where I couldn't progress because I couldn't internalize the tab, let alone embody what it was showing me.  Indeed, it was not the tabs fault, it was my own tunnel vision.

Rich Weill - Posted - 07/18/2011:  12:46:44

Tab clearly is a valuable resource.  The question is:  at what stage of a player's development is that resource most useful?  [I'm speaking now of tab transcriptions of entire songs and instrumentals, not bits of tab used to illustrate rolls, left-hand techniques, licks, etc.]

I wouldn't equate the tab version of a complete song with a foreign language grammar book.  Tabbed rolls and licks, perhaps, but not the tab of an entire song.  No, if Earl Scruggs is to the banjo what William Shakespeare was to the English language, then the tab of a Scruggs solo is comparable to a great piece of literature, not a grammar book.  [Carrying the Shakespeare analogy one step further, a Scruggs recording is like Olivier performing Shakespeare, while Scruggs in tab is like Shakespeare on the page.]  Beginning language students should learn to speak plainly before they study (and adopt phrases from) great literature.  Similarly, banjo students should learn to play plainly before they lift ideas from the tab transcriptions of great players and include them in their own renditions.

That's where I think tab is most useful:  as a source of ideas.  It shows you interesting, alternative ways (often those used by great players) of expressing the same melody over the same chords.  Once you've worked out the chord progression and melody in roll patterns, tab is one place to go for ideas on how to vary your arrangement, add interesting ornamentation, and the like.

The problem may be that some people use tab too soon.  Using the language model, it is advanced literature that should be used only after you've already learned elementary grammar. 

blindsniper - Posted - 07/18/2011:  23:12:03

quote:

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Originally posted by Rich Weill

Tab clearly is a valuable resource.  The question is:  at what stage of a player's development is that resource most useful?  [I'm speaking now of tab transcriptions of entire songs and instrumentals, not bits of tab used to illustrate rolls, left-hand techniques, licks, etc.]

I wouldn't equate the tab version of a complete song with a foreign language grammar book.  Tabbed rolls and licks, perhaps, but not the tab of an entire song.  No, if Earl Scruggs is to the banjo what William Shakespeare was to the English language, then the tab of a Scruggs solo is comparable to a great piece of literature, not a grammar book.  [Carrying the Shakespeare analogy one step further, a Scruggs recording is like Olivier performing Shakespeare, while Scruggs in tab is like Shakespeare on the page.]  Beginning language students should learn to speak plainly before they study (and adopt phrases from) great literature.  Similarly, banjo students should learn to play plainly before they lift ideas from the tab transcriptions of great players and include them in their own renditions.

That's where I think tab is most useful:  as a source of ideas.  It shows you interesting, alternative ways (often those used by great players) of expressing the same melody over the same chords.  Once you've worked out the chord progression and melody in roll patterns, tab is one place to go for ideas on how to vary your arrangement, add interesting ornamentation, and the like.

The problem may be that some people use tab too soon.  Using the language model, it is advanced literature that should be used only after you've already learned elementary grammar. 

---

 An interesting analogy, Rich.  I keep thinking about a thread Rob Bourassa started about musicality.  Tab has its place as a tool to remember something you just figured out, or to explain scales, or chords.  But does it enhance musicality.  For years I have been using tabs for finger-picking guitar, but developed dependency on tab.  Tab makes it possible to play things you learnt, but it is musicality that makes it possible to jam.  of course that means there is a toolbox full of tool, such as theory, scales, syncopation etc that may first have to be learned, but the real learning then comes with jamming, because that helps develop musicality.  And musicality reduces dependency on tab.

Heck, dunno if that will make any sense to subscribers to this thread, just my two cents worth.

Ian

rchesbro - Posted - 07/19/2011:  06:26:03

I sat in front of tab and played Foggy Mountain, Lonesome Road Blues, Fireball Mail, etc. over and over and over until I had them. This took incredible time, but they're locked in.

I've been on a quest to learn Big Sciota and could find no relevant tab so I reverted to some random dude on the internet and was forced to figure out what he was doing by sight/ear. This process, although taxing, takes much LESS time to learn than the rote tab method.

steve davis - Posted - 07/19/2011:  07:22:26

That depends on how well you can read tab.
I can place a piece of any tab in front of me and play through it as written(sight read) on the first viewing.

This is very handy to quickly go through someone else's arrangement to see if it's anything I can use for my own arrangement.
I can also listen to someone play and figure out what they are doing,but with fiddletunes,sometimes in odd keys like Bb or F,or 3 to 4 parts,I get where I need to be quicker with tabs.

Charles in SC - Posted - 07/20/2011:  19:15:22

Anjie, I played from tab trying to learn to play banjo for 12 years. I had 3 teachers at different times. I did not learn to play banjo until quit the teachers and figured it out on my own from bits and pieces I had learned over the years. I found that there are a lot of teachers that believe that teaching you to play songs is teaching you to play banjo.
These are two separate things. Learning to play a banjo will require that you play the banjo enough so that you can play the sounds that you are thinking as you go through a tune as easily as you can converse without having written text in front of you to read from.
When you interview a prospective teacher ask if he or she will be teaching you to "play the banjo or teaching you to play songs".
If they do not know the difference then you need to look for another teacher. I have found that there are a lot of banjo teachers that are great players but not good teachers. A teacher does not need to be a great player to be a great teacher.
Just my .02

Tim13 - Posted - 07/20/2011:  19:32:05

I'm the type of learner that excels when I can see material printed or drawn. When another banjo player tries to quickly show me a lick, I have little hope of being able to transpose it to my banjo, and learn it. Now, if that picker goes slow enough for me to do a quick and dirty tab of the lick, I can easily learn it. That is how tab is useful for me.

Tim

Rich Weill - Posted - 07/20/2011:  20:59:33

quote:

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Originally posted by Charles in SC

Anjie, I played from tab trying to learn to play banjo for 12 years. I had 3 teachers at different times. I did not learn to play banjo until quit the teachers and figured it out on my own from bits and pieces I had learned over the years. I found that there are a lot of teachers that believe that teaching you to play songs is teaching you to play banjo.

These are two separate things. Learning to play a banjo will require that you play the banjo enough so that you can play the sounds that you are thinking as you go through a tune as easily as you can converse without having written text in front of you to read from.

When you interview a prospective teacher ask if he or she will be teaching you to "play the banjo or teaching you to play songs".

If they do not know the difference then you need to look for another teacher. I have found that there are a lot of banjo teachers that are great players but not good teachers. A teacher does not need to be a great player to be a great teacher.

Just my .02

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From the March 2011 Banjo NewsLetter:

"[M]ost people like to teach song by song. ... I met a guy who said he played banjo.  He said his teacher was ... 'the greatest teacher; in a year I learned six songs, and boy I can play them.'  The second he said that I knew how he was being taught, song by song.  I said, 'Do you know the names of all the chords you play?' and he said, 'Most of them.'  That's not the way to learn – unless you can apply what you learn from one song and put it on to some other song by yourself.  I don't teach song by song, I polish song by song.  I give the person the tools ... so they can do any song."

-- Roger Sprung

http://banjohangout.org/group/sprungcircle

rogersprung.com/

Edited by - Rich Weill on 07/20/2011 21:12:25

BDCA - Posted - 07/21/2011:  05:46:57

quote:

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Originally posted by Rich Weill

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From the March 2011 Banjo NewsLetter:

"[M]ost people like to teach song by song. ... I met a guy who said he played banjo.  He said his teacher was ... 'the greatest teacher; in a year I learned six songs, and boy I can play them.'  The second he said that I knew how he was being taught, song by song.  I said, 'Do you know the names of all the chords you play?' and he said, 'Most of them.'  That's not the way to learn – unless you can apply what you learn from one song and put it on to some other song by yourself.  I don't teach song by song, I polish song by song.  I give the person the tools ... so they can do any song."

-- Roger Sprung

http://banjohangout.org/group/sprungcircle

rogersprung.com/

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I took guitar lessons from Roger when I was a kid first starting and he was all about the sound of the band and chord progressions. He taught me that if you don't know the chord, play something, anything is better than nothing. I went on to tour with Roger and a few years after starting lessons I won ribbons at Galax and Union Grove. We didn't have no stinkin tab...all by ear.

Cya!

Bob

steve davis - Posted - 07/21/2011:  12:50:31

There are various ways to become a good musician.

Pete Wernick - Posted - 07/21/2011:  12:52:39

I'll jump in here since no one has mentioned my recent video How to Make Up Your Own Banjo Solos. This includes the most rudimentary kind of soloing (rolling through chords), then how to add in a bit of content with standard licks, then the hard part: putting a melody together with rolls. I show the ways this is done, using five common songs. The first video is all about G in first position, and the second one is about other keys (esp. D) and up the neck in G.

The essence of Scruggs style soloing is: While rolling and chording, try to get a finger onto the string with the melody note on it!

That is much easier to say than to do... Requires knowing the melody for one thing, and for another it presents timing challenges. And most of all it requires patience. It's harder to learn to fish than to hire someone to catch one for you. But make no mistake... this is what "real players" do. None of us just routinely memorize something that someone else figured out. We don't have enough memory to play that way!

At my basic banjo camp (Jan. 2-7 in Boulder, CO) most students learn to create a workable solo. In general it helps to have supervision, but I rarely just recommend "a teacher" because there are so many banjo teachers who are not good at teaching this.

Anjie's cooking analogy makes sense... first do a couple of easy recipes following instructions, then learn to work on your own and use recipes for reference. The Shakespeare analogy is also good. Learn to "speak" in a simple way, and use brilliant players for reference, and steal what ideas you can (using tab by all means!).

Remember, music was invented before writing!

DVDs are great because you can replay them whenever you need to. If the instructor knows how to teach appropriate to your level, you will learn.

Pete

Joe Larson - Posted - 07/21/2011:  13:08:48

OMG! I thought I was the only one who learned this way. Everyone else seems to pick out a melody and then wrap the roll around it and I guess that works just fine too but coming from a fingerstyle guitar background it just seems so much more natural to me to play a roll - either F-R or AT - and then listen and find melody notes while rolling

j

Old Hickory - Posted - 07/21/2011:  13:38:18

quote:

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Originally posted by Charles in SC

When you interview a prospective teacher ask if he or she will be teaching you to "play the banjo or teaching you to play songs".

If they do not know the difference then you need to look for another teacher.

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I understand the point you're making, which is there's a difference between being able to play songs on an instrument and actually being a musician.

I've commented any number of times in this thread and others that I think it's tough for a non-musician to start on banjo and have to learn both the instrument and enough about music to become a musician.  And I guess it's tough to teach that, too.

But the devil is in the details, and when we get to the details, I start to disagree with you a bit.  I think the point's already been made that songs (tunes) we play on banjo contain lots of pieces that are used in many other songs.  New players may not realize that at first.  But they should eventually, either with the teacher's help or on their own. The speed at which that realization, that lightbulb moment, arrives will vary from individual to individual. For some, it never arrives. We're not all cut out to be musicians.

If I were still teaching banjo and a prospective student asked me your suggested question -- am I going to teach them  to play banjo or to play songs -- I'd say:

I'm going to try to teach you both. I know that you'd like to make something that sounds like music as quickly as possible. So your very first exercises are going to contain pieces that you'll use in your very first songs and in most of the songs you play for years to come. You should be playing a simple song in just one or two lessons. Sometimes we'll interrupt the learning of songs to discuss chords and what they have to do with how songs go and how learning your chords is key to learning even more songs . . . and eventually figuring songs out on your own or being able to improvise when you're playing with others.  I have no idea how quickly you're going to learn these things or if they're all going to make sense.  And if the little bit of theory I try to teach -- because I don't know a lot of theory myself --  doesn't come easy to you, then maybe we'll concentrate more on songs and I'll do my best to help you see the similarities of one song to another so that you can eventually put the pieces together.  . . .   And, by the way, I teach from tablature and expect you to learn how to read tablature because it is the most widely accepted system for communicating -- on paper -- how to play specific tunes on banjo. It's the only way I know how to assure that I've sent you home with exercises without having to rely on your memory.  And once you can read tablature, you'll be able to learn from far better players than I.

If a prospective student doesn't like my answer, then it would be better for both of us if they found another teacher.

Is there a difference between learning to play banjo and learning to play songs?  Probably.  Can the latter lead to the former. Definitely.

banjonez - Posted - 07/21/2011:  20:37:22

Treat a tab as a series of licks to learn. Memorize whatever licks are in a certain song (some are better for this than others), then isolate, learn, and apply them to other songs... copy and paste. Like the last 4 measures of Foggy Mountain Breakdown can be used in lots of places where you find a D chord followed by a G at the end of a break. That may not be the best example, but if you take a lick by lick approach, rather than treating a tab as a series of individual notes that comprise a song, then you develop a bag of tricks to draw from and you can build your own breaks.

overhere - Posted - 07/22/2011:  03:20:47

First what makes you want to play a certain song? It’s because you are attracted to it. It has a catchy melody. It has some lyrics you like and the overall sound of The song is appealing. Of course there are times when someone had requested it and you HAD to learn it but for the most part you learn a song because you want to. Therefore the sound and everything else about the song is already in your head.
For the most part using Pete’s theory you start by playing some chords and because of your knowledge with the music you most times guess the right chords and patterns. You have a good idea about the rhythm so you pick some rolls that give the rhythm. Now is the fun part. Also the secret to playing bluegrass. In those chords is every note needed for the melody, lick run or what ever. An experienced player knows as he picks away at those chord progressions that the notes are all there ready to jump out from behind the bush. And he is ready when they do.
Another problem with depending on tab. Say you learn the song to a T. But the tab is in the key of G. What do you do if the singer your backing that day sings in E say. Capo? Capo to where? The twelfth fret? You could capo to A but you’d still have to play out of the D shape.
I kinda like the freedom of the old “by ear “ way myself.

steve davis - Posted - 07/22/2011:  04:07:09

Whatever lets you become familiar with your banjo is good.
Another good tool is a "Lick" book such as "Hot Licks for BG Banjo".

This kind of tab gets your fingers and ears experiencing note combinations that you wouldn't necessarily think of on your own.
Going to new places on the strings can lead you to new choices and original ideas.

All the choices such as teachers,tabs,dvd and noodling can open doors for your playing.It doesn't happen overnight and you can evolve over your whole life.

2finger3finger - Posted - 07/22/2011:  07:37:49

I picked up my basic banjo chops from Murphy Henry's fundamentals course, on cassette tapes!. Since then I've switched to her lessons on DVD.

That said, there's no way I could ever learn Don Stover's Black Diamond without tab.

At a seminar, Bill Evans said a couple of things I found helpful, if you're going to use tab.

1) He noticed this from watching his daughter practice piano: Look at the left hand part, then the right hand part. Unless it was the reverse. In any case, if you're having trouble, try getting one hand down, then the other, rather than both at once.

2) When you are working with tab, look at it then look away from it. As suggested above, learn 1-2 bars, but don't play it while looking at the tab itself. Try to absorb what it has to tell you, then play without it.

When I was taking lessons from Bob Altschuler, he would tab out 1-2 bar licks and fills for me, which was very helpful. He would leave it up to me how to fit them into song arrangements. Finding a first-rate teacher like Bob is the upward path, without a doubt.

Tab does not make you a better musician. You have to get away from it to do that.

diagonally - Posted - 07/22/2011:  12:43:58

I think your referring to two different skills:

1) memorizing the music so you don't have t to refer to the tab. I think Ross Nickerson (Google banjoteacher) does some training in that vain.

I liken this to reading story vs reciting it from memory. The text is neither good or bad its simply a way to record it.

I don't have a great memory so it takes me a lot of effort to memorize a peice by wrote. Ones I know by heart are the ones I've played hundreds of times.

in some ways banjo pieces are harder to memorize I find for example a piece on piano is generaly much easier to  for me to memorize.

2) Improvising, customizing the tune for yourself adding you own licks etc. again that is another skill and there are training material out there that focus on that

quote:

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Originally posted by Anjie

quote:

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Originally posted by eagleisland

Tab can be enormously helpful for new players.  Understanding tab is also really helpful for more experienced players - for example, if trying to find out how another player did something.  I often tab stuff out if I'm learning something by ear (when one gets used to it,  it can really show you graphically if you're doing something in the most biomechanically efficient way).  I also find it really helpful if I'm writing a new tune or working up a new arrangement on a break - having it tabbed out means I've got something to go back to if I haven't played that piece in a few months and can't quite remember how I did it.

But you're quite right, Anjie - tab can be a crutch, and you're not the first person who has found themselves over-reliant upon it. I liken it to a road map - useful for figuring out where to make your turns, but the map can't drive your car for you or tell you which lane to drive in.

One trick that helps break the tab habit for some people is to take it slow.  Start with the first two measures, lock 'em in so you can play 'em without tab.  Then add the next measure or two, and play 'em without tab.  And so on until the entire piece is playable w/o tab. 

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Couldn't agree more - all of the replies have been spot-on.

The best analogy that I can think of is cooking.  Recipes are great for a beginning chef; you can follow recipes and make amazing meals.  They provide guidelines and a roadmap for going from raw ingredients to a final product.  However, once you understand the recipe and the interactions of ingredients and process, you can begin to customize and tweak and create wonderful meals on your own.

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spaz - Posted - 07/22/2011:  17:11:58

Hi Anjie. First off, playing 'backup' banjo is probably harder than playing lead (because most poeple learn the latter when starting) so I wouldnt get too concerned about that. Recently I used a GPS system in a car for the first time ever. After about 10 minutes of driving I realized I had no spatial concept of where I was. I generally have a really good sense of physical location and it was a very odd feeling. I turned off the GPS and 're-synced' my 'inner GPS' ;-)
But I noticed the feeling was similar to the difference between 'playing' the notes and 'reciting' the notes. Personally, I like tab, and unfortunately used to be able to read it as fast as I could play, which made it easy to use as a crutch. Since then I've focused on only using it to learn not songs. Banjoeze said something similar. Use it to learn tunes or rolls and then 'patch' those together in different ways. I am kind of a beginner and was worried for a long time that I wouldnt be able to get away from tab, but it happens if you let it. :-) Welcome to the hangout!

Dan Sparkman - Posted - 08/22/2011:  04:16:34

     I took a year's worth of banjo lessons, one hour a week, learning from a teacher who used tab.  40 years later I got a banjo (finally) and Earl Scruggs' book.  In the meanwhile I had played guitar and bass in numerous rock bands.  Somewhere in that first year, I assimilated enough music theory that I could listen to a song, figure out the key by comparing a record with the tones fretted on the banjo, and fill in the remaining chords using music theory.  Being a bassist helped a lot, as I had to know the chords and scales to make bass lines, but not the melody. 

       As most people will tell you, the melody is the vocal part of the song.  Of course you need to learn it as it defines the song!  I read somewhere that the first note of a song is usually the key it is in, but this is not always true.  The concept of key is just a method to use when figuring out the melody and chord changes. Learning the chord relationships found in the Circle of Fifths makes nearly every song much easier and quicker to learn.  Likewise, being able to tell a major from a minor chord, a seventh chord, etc. etc. from the others by ear makes everything similarly easier.  This will come by sitting down with a record and your instrument and fiddling around, so to speak, and working out songs you want to learn for which there is no sheet music or tab available.

       Right now, I am working on a song, "The Escape of Old John Webb", as played by the Kingston Trio and their former banjoist, the great Dave Guard.  Guard used many techniques in his banjo playing, so it is not enough to learn rolls and just roll through chord changes.  In "Escape", Guard introduces and solos in the song with a very specific sequence of notes which I consider important enough to use as is, and not to solo with myself, as I think his efforts rather define the song.  In learning these solos, I first determined the key of the song by comparing the general sound of the song with chord changes that eventually fit with what comes out of the recording.  Knowing this quickly made the scales and chords needed known to me, and I could much more easily work out the precise sequences of notes in the solos (fortunately this song is relatively slow in tempo).  From there, I copied these solos down in tab to use as an aid to refresh my memory if I don't play the song for some time.  So I consider tab as a useful tool, in some situations.  I don't consider what I have written down in tab for "Escape" as some kind of legal agreement to which I am bound for life; I may think of something more pleasing and/or original to me to use as a replacement as time goes by.  But at least now I have something I can quickly learn and re-learn as needed.

      Another song I am working on by the Kingston Trio is "Buddy Better Get On Down the Line", which Dave Guard co-wrote with Jane Bowers.  He has a fantastic, old-timey introduction solo for this song that also rather defines it, but it goes much faster.  I first determined the key of the song, as set out above.  Knowing this made the chord sequence easy to learn, and gave me a clue to the scales, which would make working out the solos much simpler.  However the speed of this solo caused me to spend several hours listening to this solo again and again while writing what I hope are the correct notes down in tab in order to have the tab as a reference to learn the solo.  What is even more difficult is that I have decided that Guard flat-picked this solo, as the note sequence simply does not lend itself to Scruggs-type rolls.  I finally finished this process after several hours.  I could never just sit and learn this solo from memory by listening to it over and over, as it is much too complicated and long.  As Ross Nickerson advises in his book, "Encyclopedia of Bluegrass" , I will memorize the tab that I have written down.

    Yet another song I am working on by the Kingston Trio is "Georgia Stockade Blues", as played by John Stewart, who plays it straight out with Scruggs rolls, double hammers and all, and not slowly, either.  I have cds and not a record player, and have no way to slow down a record to be able to copy solos note for note at a leisurely pace.  With the " Georgia Stockade Blues", I determined the key and the chords used in the introduction, and then I have just started using rolls to roll through the chord changes, which, with some precisely placed double hammers, pretty well give a nice replica of Stewart's efforts.   I wrote out the words to the song to use as a reference, and filled in the chord changes at the appropriate places.  The solo pretty well follows the chord changes made during the verses, using rolls to keep the piece moving.  I don't consider which roll was used when to be especially important in playing this song, because the whole thing moves along at such a fast tempo that particular note sequences  are not devastatingly important to this solo, so long as chord changes and tempos are adhered to.  I think a lot of bluegrass songs are like that, and to be honest, what would be accomplished by replicating such solos note for note?  Earl Scruggs admits in his book that he seldom plays his own solos the same way twice, and I think really good jammers on any instrument would not feel comfortable or creative with slavish adherence to anything done before.  Some musicians do learn some solos note for note and play them that way always because the solos are so well known for certain note sequences that one would feel wrong to change them, or sometimes simply out of laziness, to be able to play a good-sounding solo easily again and again (always before a different audience!) without getting too adventurous and risking getting lost in the solo or fluffing it.  Did you notice that I did not mention using tab in relation to learning "Georgia Stockade Blues"?  I did not use it at all, and did not need to.

      Using Earl Scruggs' book, I did learn to read tab again, and I still consult it and other books when I feel a need to use tab.  There are lots of songs written in tab for me to learn if I wished in all of these books, but either I do not wish to learn these songs, or I am intimidated by the task of memorizing lines and lines of tab, or perhaps  I just don't want to spend a lot of time learning and memorizing a precisely-reproduced song or solo which musicianship and artistry really belongs to somebody else.  Ross Nickerson recommends getting away from tab as soon as possible.  The bottom line is that I consider tab as a learning tool, for which it is quite useful at times, but I really wouldn't want to be on stage with my eyes glued to tab sheets instead of taking in the efforts of my fellow musicians or that hot lady out there in the third row.  Tab is useful in the same way that sheet music is useful, and tab is in fact a very useful stop on the road to learning to read and write sheet music, which I think is highly recommendable and which I myself am also learning at this moment.  Tab is quite useful to a banjo player because you don't need endless amount of ledger lines to put the music that you are working on down in writing, so when I submitted my first written song to the Library of Congress' Office of Copyrights, I wrote out the  vocal, and bass parts in sheet music and the banjo and guitar parts in tab.  And so they were accepted.

Edited by - Dan Sparkman on 08/22/2011 04:28:50

Old Hickory - Posted - 08/22/2011:  06:55:48

quote:

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Originally posted by Dan Sparkman

I read somewhere that the first note of a song is usually the key it is in, but this is not always true.

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It's the last note, or more likely the root note of the last chord, that most often reveals the key. Again, not always. But the vast majority of songs -- especially those you're likely to encounter in bluegrass -- resolve back to (or end up on) their 1 chord. That happens even if the song starts on the 4 or 5, as many do.

billlink - Posted - 02/21/2012:  18:19:34

If you want to be a writer, you have to learn to read first. 

I have never understood musicians who think it is a bad thing to be able to read music.  Being able to improvise and "play by ear" is great, but so is being able to play something that is written down very well.  Either one is good.  Both is better. 

Why limit yourself?  The more you know, the more you know.

Edited by - billlink on 02/21/2012 18:25:23

Jody Hughes - Posted - 02/21/2012:  20:19:07

Please check out this thread that contains the first two videos in my "Breaking Away from TAB" series.  It might provide some direction and ideas.

banjohangout.org/topic/228142

It will be further developed over time but you need to start somewhere :P

Harpist - Posted - 02/22/2012:  00:53:16

Spot on! It all comes from a fear of not doing it 'right' For me, the lightbulb moment was when I realized that if I decided on a tune, there would be half a dozen different tabs, all equally 'right' - so, hey, MY way's right, too. Real folk musicians always put their own spin on things once they learn the tune.

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Originally posted by seanray

quote:

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Originally posted by Anjie

​I couldn’t “think for myself” when it came to playing the banjo. 

______________________________________________

That's the real problem right there. Tab isn't inherently evil but it can make you lazy if used in isolation. Critical listening and noodling are essential to learning how to think for yourself in terms of playing the banjo.

Just play. Make stuff up and don't be afraid of screwing up because we all do.

 

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banjoy - Posted - 02/22/2012:  04:53:27

Hey there Anjie wow what a great thread you've made here. I have personal experience that I think is directly relevant to the topic of your thread, which may add insight from a slightly different direction...

I began playing classical violin at age 10 through the public school system I got very good very fast and over the 8 years I played classical violin was able to participate in all kinds of chamber groups, full orchestras, all-state competitions, etc. Throughout that experience I was taught that you cannot improvise, don't even try. I know this because at age 13 I specifically asked my teachers when we get to learn how to improvise, and that was the answer: you can't, never, don't try. And I believed it. But, that is what I wanted to do. I always wondered how my friends, same age, who played rock and roll guitar,could play without having sheet music in front of them.

Anyway, after 7-8 years of that stuff I really got tired of it. I dropped violin and picked up banjo, then immediately bought all the tab books that were out then, in 1978, 79. Earl's book, Tony Triska and Wernick books. All good stuff.

Because I had 8 years of experience in interpreting sheet music to played music, I picked up tab very quickly. Within 6 months I could play very well, any tab I saw, I could also sight-read tab very well (play for the first time seeing it). But, after attending my very first jam session where I quickly saw how clueless I was, I realized instantly I had to un-learn some things and re-learn other things.

I ABSOLUTELY agree with all the posters here who have mentioned ear training, or "hearing." That, I believe, is fundamental to internalizing music through your heart, rather than your mind. Way back then, I realized after all those years of playing music, and being able to pick up banjo very quickly from tab, I did'nt even know the most fundamental thing like what a chord change was, or why it was.

My path then focused on ear training. I learned how to make all major and minor chords up and down the neck. I would make up my own exercises, of just mindlessly play rolls and chord changes, forcusing on clarity and tone.

But I have never viewed tab as an evil or a crutch. For me, it had become a crutch, and I can easily see where total dependence on it can be, if you continue growing as a musician, a mold you want to grow beyond. Tablature is a fantastic way to learn, It is much easier than classical music notation, it can be accurate, and it does allow the mind to grasp what the heck is going on.

Ear training really started happening for me when, about 20 years later, I actually started attending jam sessions for real. At first I'd just lay back and grapple with figuring out the chord changes and not play because I was so nervous. Anyway, over the years I did un-learn and re-learn some things.

Another thing I would do was to tune in a radio station that played music completely outside of my comfort zone, and jam to the radio. At first just finding chords, then rythym patterns, rolls whatever. In those days, it was my "Band In The Box" lol.

Tablature, training videos, all that are fantastic learning tools. Some are better than others, but you can get something positive from all of it I believe. Ear training and understanding the fingerboard I believe are crucial to growing beyond tab. But if you begin with or learn tab later, you're not gonna divorce yourself from it, because it's just too valuable a tool.

- - - - -

In regards to note-for-note interpretations of tab. that mirrors exactly the issues I had with playing classical music years ago verbatim, as written. Unless the tablature you have in your hands was written by the person who wrote the tune, I would suggest using tabbed songs only as a guide, and not as a rule. I learned that lesson well through this experience: I learned quite a few fiddle tunes out of Tony Triska's early Bluegrass Songbook and Melodic Banjo books. Yet, when I jammed on those tunes with fiddlers, no one played it like the tab. Ever. Anywhere I played. To this day. And to compound it, I found that fiddle tunes, like many other genres (blues for example) have flair and inflection that vary from region to region of the country. It's like a musical dialect. So someone who plays a fiddle tune up in Canada or New England will have a different slant on it than a fiddler in Cajun country, or out west.

So the tab becomes one interpretation of one performance of a tune. I mean heck, even Earl Scruggs does not play FMB the same way twice. I've heard him play it all sorts of different ways, most of them nowhere to be found in tab I guarantee.

- - - - -

Finally, I would say that since you are learning from tab, never abandon it. Tab can be your friend. But, since you are having these inquiries you sound kind of like I did years ago, you wanna just play the instrument!

Here is how I've come to view learning music

Learning a lick, roll, chord, song or technique = brain engaged

Playing a lick, roll, chord, song or technique = brain disengaged.

It really is left-brain right-brain stuff. Hopefully they fire on all cylinders.

- - - - -

Hopefully, this helps. Good luck with this, hope to see more posts from you this is all good stuff. Very good thread. Excellent perspectives from everyone IMO.

Edited by - banjoy on 02/22/2012 04:54:49

Corwyn - Posted - 02/22/2012:  07:40:45

quote:

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Originally posted by Anjie

The best analogy that I can think of is cooking. 

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Cooking is a great analogy.  A recipe is the simplest way to communicate a dish to others.  Telling someone to keep eating until they get the dish would be extremely frustrating for those who don't have a precise sense of taste (or a weight problem :-).  After some learning simple dishes can be cooked without a recipe.  Professional cooks (especially bakers) use formulas with precise relationships and woe betide the prep chef who deviates.

Music is exactly the same.  Listen some time to someone trying to describe how to play even a measure.  It's this finger on this fret on this string, etc.  It takes minutes to convey what can be read in tab at the speed of the music.  When one gets to improvising, one can only have one person playing anything complicated at a time (everybody else vamps).  The very best improvisers might have two, and we are all amazed.  An orchestra can have 50 or 100 people all playing different complicated things, which mesh seamlessly, but they require written music to do it.  

steve davis - Posted - 02/22/2012:  09:31:49

The only thing I would worry about as far as learning the banjo is to know good timing from bad.



As far as note/lick choices,learning tunes or getting the fingers in synch with each other.playing by ear,teacher,tab or a combination of all is good.

I spent the first 15 years of playing the banjo by ear,looking at chord diagrams and taking advice from a very good play by ear player..

The good timing I picked up by osmosis from my musical family and very musical church.



I started reading and writing tab in 1975 and still use it today because there's nothing wrong with it,but just like new fad diets,no one thing is the "be all/end all" path.

Use as many different ways of learning as possible and don't pick up any bad timing habits.

Bad timing is the most difficult thing to correct.



The best way to avoid learning bad timing is to play with people that have good timing which,btw, is also the best way to learn how to play by ear on the fly...by playing with those that have that ability and never playing with someone that has a bad timing problem(until you are experienced enough to get through it but not let it influence you).



Spend more time playing with other people rather than mostly tab,imo.

If you believe tab is hurting your playing,you could probably be using it in a more productive way.

Edited by - steve davis on 02/22/2012 09:35:29

BanjoJohnny - Posted - 02/22/2012:  23:27:08

Learning a lick, roll, chord, song or technique = brain engaged

Playing a lick, roll, chord, song or technique = brain disengaged.

It really is left-brain right-brain stuff. Hopefully they fire on all cylinders.

Frank (Banjoy), this sure makes sense to me... hopefully both sides of my brain. I was told to practice the rolls and neck until I could "speak it" like a foreign language. Brain disengaged would be Dreaming in Banjo.

Johnny

banjoy - Posted - 02/23/2012:  01:05:40

quote:

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Originally posted by BanjoJohnny

Learning a lick, roll, chord, song or technique = brain engaged

Playing a lick, roll, chord, song or technique = brain disengaged.

It really is left-brain right-brain stuff. Hopefully they fire on all cylinders.

Frank (Banjoy), this sure makes sense to me... hopefully both sides of my brain. I was told to practice the rolls and neck until I could "speak it" like a foreign language. Brain disengaged would be Dreaming in Banjo.

Johnny

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Wow someone actually read something I wrote LOL.

Yeah the use of the brain in the process is a realization I had years ago. I realized that at some point in growing as a musician, that thinking about music was definitely getting in my way. Then I had this "ah-ha" moment about learning music vs playing music, and her ya go.

I think the biggest stumbling block for many musicians is never getting past their mind. So, quite literally, you have to be in your mind to learn music. Then, you have to be out of your mind to play it. Sounds funny, but I've found truth in this.

Jatkins - Posted - 02/23/2012:  08:39:11

If there's one thing I've learned in life it's that only a very few, fundamental things are equally true for everybody. Why? Because everybody thinks and processes information differently. The parts of your brain that you manage to harness and put to work for you aren't the same as anyone else's. Information that comes into your brain through your eyes and ears, therefore, undergoes a highly individualistic process of analysis and interpretation before you can put it to use with your mouth or hands. While many of these neurological pathways share commonalities with those used by other persons, each person's learning process is unique to that individual. Therefore, everyone learns differently, and what works seamlessly for one person can present an insurmountable roadblock to somebody else who's no less intelligent or dedicated.

Personally, I can't read music notation and I can't read tab, and I'm convinced that I never will. I've tried many times, over and over, with books and sheets of tab, but the only thing I ever managed to absorb from tab was the most basic, elementary of roll patterns, and that probably because the book I used was accompanied by an audio CD. Everything beyond that has been a dead loss. It doesn't matter how many times I try:  I get two or three notes in, and my eyes glaze over. A sheet of tab is no more music to me than a stone with Egyptian hieroglyphics would be. Even tunes I'm intimately familiar with dissolve into a dyslexic jumble of notes that just don't seem to have any logical relationship to one another. I even tried taking a class in clawhammer banjo with a highly regarded local teacher about two years ago; it was a disaster. I was the dunce of the class, never managing to progress beyond the first lesson. After six weeks of frustration and humiliation, I threw every scrap of class paper in the garbage can...

The only thing I can make of all this is that I'm hard-wired for different kind of learning. I would not presume to say that I can play as well as anyone else here. That's not for me to say. But I've attained a certain level of proficiency that surpasses anything I ever thought myself capable of when I first picked up the banjo, and that gives me some satisfaction, and in the end, that's what it's all about, isn't it? I may never be as good a picker as the next person -- after all, there's always a faster gun, right? But playing by ear is what works for me, and as long as I can parse out the chord progressions in a tune and augment them with enough melodic threads and chord inversions, I know I'll be able to make a worthwhile contribution to the tunes we play in our band. And it's something more than I'd ever be able to do if, God forbid, somebody passed a law that stipulated there was only one approved way play. I guess that can't be entirely bad, right?

banjoy - Posted - 02/23/2012:  09:53:34

Hey Jatkins, for what it's worth, some of the finest musicians I have had the pleasure of making music with never learned a lick of theory, nor could they read music and I don't think tab had even been invented when they learned. But they were the finest musicians and could tear up their instruments, in a good way.

And, Earl Scruggs himself never learned tab. His tunes were transcribed by others. He couldn't ever read the tabbed transcriptions. He may have learned it lately, don't know about that.

I agree 100% with the points you raise.

Edited by - banjoy on 02/23/2012 09:56:28

Anjie - Posted - 02/23/2012:  10:30:14

bo_mcpickin - Posted - 02/23/2012:  18:06:28

Something that has helped me start moving from tab to playing by ear is using Audacity. I can open the mp3s, highlight a section of the song, and use the "effect -> change tempo" option to slow it down (without changing the pitch).

Brian T - Posted - 02/23/2012:  19:00:54

I suspect, without bothering to read any of this thread,
that there are a few ( I did say FEW) who cannot remember the first note on page 2.
I am one of those rare birds.
Don't interrupt.
If I could have figured this out in 1960, don't you think I would have
and could have abandoned SN or TAB by now?
No more charts? Just play?
Does not work for me. Put the charts in front of me and I can blast away.
1. I have a very good time.
2. end of story