zluszcz - Posted - 05/21/2009:  06:16:12

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Hey Everyone-

I've been playing for about a 8 months and am progressing at a decent clip. I can play through the lead parts of several songs and know the basic chords in the open G tuning.

I've taken lessons for about two months from a local Bluegrass/Old Time teacher. I like the guy, but not sure are methods are meshing too well anymore. I hate to admit it, but I've been learning by looking at tab and listening to the recordings using stuff on line (Rick McKeon) and some books (Janet Davis's YCTYTB).

I really want to learn to play by ear without relying on tab, but I'm struggling to get there both on my own and with the teacher's help. He shows me some chords and then lays down the song on CD and then tells me to listen, listen, listen and then practice, practice, practice. Any advice on how to work on learning to play by ear?

Many thanks,
Zack

steve davis - Posted - 05/21/2009:  06:26:44

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I learned playing by ear by playing along with someone who played by ear...my dad.He learned
to play by ear from his mother.
I think playing by ear is best learned by example from someone that plays by ear and offers
patient advice.The foundation of my playing by ear is in hearing the chord changes.

Pool

Banjophobic - Posted - 05/21/2009:  06:38:51

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Zluszcz

Training your ear is a continual process, as is learning to play the instrument. There isnt a system that will train your ear in "X" amount of time. Time and persistance and playing with others, listening to CD's/records and understanding chord progressions, will eventually get your ear trained.
Tabs is a useful tool for figuring out fingerings/roll patterns etc, and should be used in conjunction with ear training-not taking the place of your ear. Be patient and keep working on getting your ear better. Its the most 'tool' any musician can have-.

Trewq36 - Posted - 05/21/2009:  06:39:40

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Start with a song you already KNOW, something you can hum/whisle/sing with out the recording, tab or sheet music. Such as "Happy Birthday" or "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star". Pick a note to start then decide if the next note is up or down scale and find it (for example "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star" could be played A,A,B,B, or G,G,A,A, depending on where you start).

Once you master a few of those you can then try to learn ones you're not so versed with. But you must first get the tune in your Head. Thus start with ones that are already in your head.

Never play the same thing once......yoR

steve davis - Posted - 05/21/2009:  06:59:19

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I believe you must first get the chord progression in your head.This will keep you grounded in the tune while you figure out the melody notes which exist within the chords or their slightly altered forms.

Pool

Texasbanjo - Posted - 05/21/2009:  07:23:00

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When I first started learning to play by ear, I'd listen to a song over and over until I had the melody in my head and could sing or hum the melody. Then I'd try to figure out the chord progression. After that I'd pick out the melody notes and make sure that each melody note was in the correct bar and on the correct beat. Then I'd try to figure out how to make it sound like bluegrass. Try sliding into a melody note and finishing off with a roll. Try a hot lick at the end of a musical phrase. After I'd done that several times, I found I didn't need to write the melody notes down and I had found melody "patterns" that fit various melody notes. After that, it became easier and easier to just listen and let my brain and fingers get together and do whatever they wanted -- worked and still works for me.

Let''s Pick!
Texas Banjo

grantnc - Posted - 05/21/2009:  07:36:47

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Zack,

I do have a little more specific advice: I find it easiest to listen for the bass note. If you know the bass note, you know the root of the chord. If you know the root, it's not too difficult to try the major (F), then the seventh if that isn't right (F7), then the minor if that isn't right (Fmin), etc. Once you know the chord, you can figure out the rest.

I'll put out a caveat here: I'm not much of a banjo player, but I have sung in gospel quartets since I can remember and played guitar since high school. And, like everyone says, it takes practice and you never stop learning about it.

Grant

george craciun - Posted - 05/21/2009:  07:38:13

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I learned (and play) totally by ear. If you are a by ear player, the way to start, is to learn a few very simple tunes on your own - wildwood flower and in the willow garden are great starters. Work out the chords on your own first, then when you have all the 2 or 3 chords you need, work on the rolls and timing necessary to make it sound like you think it should. All the while you should be hearing the tune in your head as you work through it. Later on, when your skill levels improve, you can play along with a favourite CD or slow jam with other learners. That is my method. If you have a good ear, it is not too difficult, but there's no way getting out the need to practice, practice, practice. Since I never had any instructions at all, my fingering is somewhat unconventional (lead index, 3 finger) and I do not ( and cannot) anchor any fingers as most pickers do. But hey, I still have fun playing and even manage to squeez in a jam once in a while. Am finally learing the name of some main chords and can play in most any chord with the help of my capo, but tend to favor playing in C (or drop C or single C) over the usual open G. Hope that helps more then it harms. Good luck and happy pickin".

Back Porch Picker

Richard Dress - Posted - 05/21/2009:  07:42:21

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Someone recently had the same issue--here is what I said:

Here is a zip file that runs on your browser. It is a multi-media lesson plan for playing by ear--i give it to my students (it assumes you are learning Cripple Creek--Scruggs' style).
http://tinyurl.com/4f8xq4

Banjov1 - Posted - 05/21/2009:  08:04:27

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Lots of good advice here. One additional thing that's really helped me to play more songs by ear has been a slow downer program. You can use Audacity, the Amazing Slow Downer. I use Transcribe! But actually slowing down a tune to half or 1/3rd speed makes it MUCH simpler to pick out passages, especially when you factor in all the easy looping functions.

Once I started picking out things at slow speeds it was a little easier to pick out things at faster speeds.

Tony

drwt1 - Posted - 05/21/2009:  08:21:54

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I learned by ear...but mostly I learned by WATCHING..If you can see what the player is doing, that really helps, along with hearing what he's doing, too...but, that's just me...

thetexan - Posted - 05/21/2009:  08:37:21

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zluszcz,

When you attempt to learn to play the banjo you are learning a language just like Spanish or Chinese. The learning process in both banjo and Spanish is essentially identical.

You can no more play the banjo (proficiently) without being able to play by ear than you could learn Spanish without listening and understanding the Spanish words being spoken to you.

There are two parts to this process. One, stuffing your brain with as many banjo "vocaulary words" (licks, notes, phrases, runs, chords, chord transitions, etc) as possible as well as learning the syntax of how to string those words together. And, two, learning to use those words conversationally which is a two part process in itself; one speaking the words and, two, hearing and understanding the words.

During the "stuffing your brain" phase of learning you want to absorb as many banjo "things" as possible, such as licks, chords and transitions. These can be had from many sources including but not limited to tabs, CD's, videos, being physically taught, experimentation, etc. For this phase, tabs are one of the best ways because tabs represent a written archive of thousands of banjo vocabulary. This is where many new players go astray; they use tab for the purpose of learning a song (which isnt bad in and of itself) rather than seeing tabs as a rich source of hidden banjo treasures that can be extracted and used to enrich your banjo vocabulary, later to be used in the "spoken banjo".

During the second phase of learning (and these two phases can and do run concurrently) you learn to use all of these banjo "words" in "sentences" and "paragraphs" while at the same time learn to listen to and understand what is being said to you. You cannot possibly understand a Spanish word spoken to you unless at some point previously you have familiarized yourself with that word. This is why you can listen to two people speak in Spanish and you can occasionally pick up a word or two like "adios", "buenos dias" etc. However, I suspect you cannot recognize any Swahili words while listening to two Africans speak because you are not familiar in any way with Swahili.

This is a long analogy to make this point. The more you are familar with and practiced on banjo licks, chord transitions, runs and the like the more you will be able to listen to and understand what is being played when listening to someone else, thus, enhancing your ability to learn by listening or by ear. The more you are familiar the more you will learn. The learning curve associated with this process is gradual but constant and if applied systematically will guarantee more rapid success.

Tab is important for one phase of learning but not for the other. Learning by ear is important for the other phase of learning but not for the other.

And notice that I have never mentioned memorizing speeches as part of the process. When a new player learns songs from memory as the first step in learning they tend to continue on that trend and keep memorizing songs. This is equivalent to wanting to learn Spanish, but rather than using a systematic approach to learning Spanish, deciding to learn by memorizing a bunch of Spanish poems or speeches by rote instead; believing that others would rather listen to you recite Spanish poetry as a solioquy than engage with you in meaningful conversation. This is where back-up vs. lead comes into play.

Most new players jump right into learning songs, usually from tab, as their initial introduction to learning the banjo. We all have done this and there's nothing wrong with it. It's exciting to make the banjo do something fancy and we love it because that's what drew us to the banjo in the first place. In fact it's so cute it makes more experienced players want to stop and take baby pictures, remembering what it was like when they first started.

And while this is normal it leads to a common problem that plagues most banjo players from then on. And that is the neglect of the meaningful study of the banjo language, specificly, back-up. Most new players concentrate on lead and solo work when, in fact, they should, from the start, concentrate on back-up. Most of what you will ever do on the banjo (about 95%) will be back-up and, unless you take the correct path now, that will be the thing you are the least proficient at.

When you go to a jam, you will be asked to perform back-up 95% of the time and be asked to play a solo or lead 5% of the time. You tell me which you think you should be good at.

This doesnt mean that you can't be artistic while playing backup. In fact, if you are a back-up master you will be a shining star in the performance time after time; in fact 95% of the time! And yet back-up is the most neglected part of the banjo language among most average players, simply because they weren't led down the right path at the early stages of their learning.

So here is what I recommend.

In everything you learn put back-up in the forefront rather then lead. You will aquire the ability to play lead, both from memory and improvisation, in direct proportion to your ability to play back-up. So, while concentrating solely on playing solos tends to cause neglect of back-up, the reverse is not true. Concentrating on back-up enhances your ability and proficiency on playing lead and quickens the learning of lead parts. Again, however, the reverse is not true.

1. Keep learning as many banjo "things" as you can from as many sources as you can.

2. Practice those "things" as much as possible being careful to practice perfection and not error.

3. Begin listening to the masters as they play back-up. Their back-up play is wonderful to behold and could stand alone as entertainment! Listen to what they do and how they do it. Again, the more banjo vocabulary you know the easier it will be to recognize what they are doing.

4. Formulate a systematic and methodical approach to you studies and practice. Take a step-by-step approach building on what you already know. Learn chords, play chords, learn transitions, play transitions, learn substitution licks, play those licks. Mix them up in a thousand different ways until you can do it at will.

5. Learn some lead stuff. All work and no play makes for a dull learning experience. Learn a song here and there. Learn a lead break here, and there, while always maintaining a proper ratio of lead to back-up study and practice. I recommend about 20% lead and 80% back-up in the first 1000 hours of practice.

6. Start by learning everything in Janet Davis' book Back-up Banjo just as she presents it. You can learn other stuff at the same time from other sources. But you are not done until you are capable of teaching everything in her book to someone else.

7. Get out and jam with others. Every jam is a learning experience and you should find something that can be useful everytime you go. In fact you should go fully intending to seek out and find something to learn. Then go home and refine it and perfect what you learned.

With the banjo there seems to be more players who have reached learning plateaus or stagnation than with most other instruments. I think this is because the banjo language while not difficult theoretically, does require lots of practice. And it can seem much easier to become content with one's ability than to push oneself to climb higher.

Keep the fun in it but stay systematic and remember two words and a phrase.

1. practice
2. back-up
3. "You will make your reputation on what you do with the banjo 95% of the time rather that what you do with it 5% of the time"

Im sorry for the length but perhaps others can benefit from this.


Welcome to the brotherhood of banjo linguists!

tex

p.s. here are some other posts of mine you may want to read.

http://www.banjohangout.org/forum/t...IC_ID=147688
http://www.banjohangout.org/forum/t...IC_ID=142861
http://www.banjohangout.org/forum/t...IC_ID=137023
http://www.banjohangout.org/forum/t...IC_ID=145568

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Edited by - thetexan on 05/21/2009 16:20:04

Banjocoltrane - Posted - 05/21/2009:  08:49:41

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Visit my blog at:
http://jodyhughesmusic.blogspot.com

I go into detail about what learning by ear is


Thanks,
Jody Hughes
http://www.jodyhughesmusic.com

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Edited by - Banjocoltrane on 05/21/2009 08:50:05

minstrelmike - Posted - 05/21/2009:  10:58:49

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There are two things you need to learn to play music. One is learning actual techniques on the instrument such as chords and plucking patterns. The other is learning how music works which is knowing verse and chorus and knowing melody versus and arrangement.

You can learn licks, chords, TECHNIQUES by tab or by ear or by teacher.
You can also learn SONGS by tab or by ear or by teacher.

That's just one of the confusions about learning by ear.
What you _really_ want to be able to ultimately do is 1) be able to learn by any and all methods and
2) be able to play a song _on_your_own which means you have to be able to create an arrangement from a melody using the instrumental techniques you have available (the stuff you've practiced).

There are several ways to do this. The first step is to find the melody. Try plucking out Oh Susannah or some children's song and see if you can get the melody--the notes you'd sing. another way to find melody is to play the chords to a song up and down the neck and see if you can find the melody on the 1st string. (This also gets you used to playing up and down the neck on _any_ song.) Another way to 'find' the melody is to learn to read music and then you can use pretty much any music book in the world. I don't believe that's a bad thing, but do think being able to pick up a melody by ear is helpful. I think one thing that holds some folks back is that we generally learn instrumentals first on the banjo because there's more going on and everything, but I think it's harder to _hear_ a melody from an instrumental played on banjo, especially for a beginner. Work on singing songs to begin developing the ear.

The next step, which is something you can already practice, too as long as you have some melodies no matter how they were obtained, is to build up arrangements from melody using chords and rolls and licks.

Mike Moxcey Fort Collins, Colorado, USA
http://moxcey.net/mike/minstrel/index.html

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Edited by - minstrelmike on 05/21/2009 10:59:14

Rich Weill - Posted - 05/21/2009:  15:05:38

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quote:

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Originally posted by thetexan

There are two parts to this process. One, stuffing your brain with as many banjo "vocaulary words" (licks, notes, phrases, runs, chords, chord transitions, etc) as possible as well as learning the syntax of how to string those words together. And, two, learning to use those words conversationally which is a two part process in itself; one speaking the words and, two, hearing and understanding the words.

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Let me respectfully disagree with thetexan in this respect: A lot of the banjo "vocabulary" to which he refers is ornamentation. You can play a very nice banjo arrangement by ear without most of it.

In my opinion, the first steps to playing by ear are (1) finding the chord progression, (2) finding the single-note melody line, and (3) learning how to roll over the chord progression while inserting melody notes in appropriate places. Fancy licks and runs can come later. Even slides and hammer-ons can come later. Chords, rolls, and melody notes should be your first priority IMHO.

[I went into this in a bit more detail yesterday on this thread: http://www.banjohangout.org/forum/t...IC_ID=148370]

Richard Dress - Posted - 05/21/2009:  15:31:44

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"You can play a very nice banjo arrangement by ear without most of it." - this may sound like heresy but I agree 100%. A lot of us here don't have the time left to learn a life-time portion of 'how to play the banjo'. We want the fast track plan. If Ralph Stanley can sound great with 2 rolls and 2 licks, why do we have to learn all this stuff? Rich Weill seems to have the answer.

thetexan - Posted - 05/21/2009:  15:40:56

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Rich,

I agree there are a lot of ornamentation and extravagances that can be learned but would not be considered profitable for a newbie for the purpose of progressing him along a learning tract. However, what I was refering to was the general principle that regardless of what is learned a person's ability to 'recognize' what is being heard is dependent on what is familiar.

You mentioned in you referenced post about finding melody, at least at first, can sometimes be a trial and error process. I agree. My point is that the very act of trial and error is a learning sequence which itself results in adding these discovered tidbits of experience and knowledge to the entire familiarity knowledge base. These then can be later used in recognition of what is being heard, either played by someone else or listening to yourself.

My overall point is that, in the learning sequence, the more building blocks one has to work with when attempting to play anything, the easier it will be to play that thing by ear. Even the trial and error process is easier if you have many building blocks to work with rather than few.

Using the Spanish analogy, sometimes one just has to jump in and try to join in a conversation in Spanish even if you dont know many words. But even that experience adds to the knowledge base making the next attempt easier.


Your suggestions for chord changes and melody work is very good.

tex

Richard Dress - Posted - 05/21/2009:  16:05:13

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Tex,

You were a good target for me to use to make a point. I like your posts and even save a lot of them. I can't even remember any I disagreed with, really. Cheers.

SandyR - Posted - 05/21/2009:  22:43:18

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For something concise, I like Trewq36's advice. What I always say is that you can learn to play from yourself. You can be your first teacher by humming or singing (or even mentally doing so) and then "transcribing" yourself on the banjo. How to get started? "Pick a note" works. Something like "Red River Valley" is good, if you know the melody, because it lends itself to easy layout on the course of banjo strings.

mdgodaat - Posted - 05/22/2009:  03:42:33

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If you can hear a tune in your head or hum or whistle a tune that you know you are already playing by ear. All you have to do is sound it out on the fretboard.

Seek the melody first then work the chords into it or vice versa.

When playing banjo not every single melody note is always played to achieve the melody of a song. Some melody notes are skipped over and other harmony notes are played instead that will help fit your rolls in and achieve the same tune. Effects, licks, chords, rolls, backup and such are fit in to the timing of a song or rolls with the melody combined in it.

Play what sounds good too. Just because you're not playing every melody note doesn't mean you're not playing the song. You can throw whatever you want in a song if it sounds good and the timing is right. As long as it all comes out in the wash you'll be okay.

Bluegrass in my blood. Now, if I can only get it to my fingers ?

Rich Weill - Posted - 05/22/2009:  06:50:02

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quote:

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Originally posted by thetexan

Your suggestions for chord changes and melody work is very good.

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Thank you. These suggestions are not original. This is the way Roger Sprung -- the only instructor I've ever had -- teaches the banjo. No tab, no written music of any kind, no "watch me and copy me." It's: (1) strum the chords, (2) roll the chords, (3) get near the tune without moving your left hand, and (4) add passing notes with your left hand. And (as minstrelmike suggests) do it with one roll throughout, then go back and do it again with a second roll throughout, and then a third. [And then "rinse and repeat" in the key of C, and perhaps D.]

Roger has you play 20 songs this way -- multiple versions, and in multiple keys -- before anything fancy (not even a slide or a pull-off) is added.