Klondike Waldo - Posted - 02/10/2011:  11:16:42

---

Ed, regarding your question:(One wonders if the Irish ever tried using a Saxophone in a ceilidh...)
May I recommend a book By Susan Lindsay, local ITM flutist and Saxophone player about the Irish Dance Hall scene a generation or two ago:
"Meet You At The Hall" Some of the dance hall musicians, including notably Joe Derrane are still playing in the Boston area.

Klondike Waldo - Posted - 02/10/2011:  11:20:29

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by pgroff

Daniel,

I agree with your perspective and with your excellent points earlier in this thread.

I meant no criticism of your earlier post that I quoted.... only that, literally, it would be sad (for me) if we decided to write John off as a serious scholar.

I say that *not* as a musicologist myself. But I am a scholar in other fields, and I do believe that amateurs can sometimes contribute research of very high quality.

I also agree that some good, or at least fun, can come out of this discussion, for those that like to talk about this stuff... of course that's not as much fun as the playing, for me.

Hey, if you're reading this, did you see that Ome "5-string short scale plectrum" (all 5 strings running full-length) on ebay recently? I have been thinking about putting a different nut/bridge on a short-scale guitar banjo to make a "5 string tenor" tuned GDAEB -- sort of a conjunction of the GDAE "octave mandolin tuning" and the DAEB "jazz tuning capo'd at the 2nd fret." You could get away with a pretty long scale for a tenor because there wouldn't be a stretch to the high C, C#, D notes.... What forum would that go in? Would I no longer be involved in traditional Irish music because this is a break from the past (especially if I play newly composed Brendan Tonra tunes) .... or would beezaboy claim an out because it's no longer a tenor banjo....

PG

---

I' been wondering about going the other way- a five string tenor banjo tuned CGDAE, an octave below a five string Scottish fiddle. I'll bet that would open a world of new possibilities...

pgroff - Posted - 02/10/2011:  11:25:13

---

Klondike,

Re: "Meet you at the hall" by Sue Gedutis.

That's a great book and more examples of recordings etc. with the sax could be cited.

For John, note that there's tenor banjo content in Sue's book too -- Joe Derrane's brother was the tenor banjo player George Derrane (RIP), mentioned I think by Daniel in an earlier post, and Mr Kelly (RIP) and others are also mentioned.

If I remember correctly, I introduced Sue to some of the sources she used for that wonderful book when she was starting work for her graduate thesis at Tufts. When I had a small shop in the Boston area I used to meet and play with a lot of the Irish musicians from the "Dudley St. dancehall" era, many of whom are sadly no longer with us.

PG

---

Edited by - pgroff on 02/10/2011 11:36:36

pgroff - Posted - 02/10/2011:  11:30:30

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Klondike Waldo

quote:

---

Originally posted by pgroff
[PG

---

I' been wondering about going the other way- a five string tenor banjo tuned CGDAE, an octave below a five string Scottish fiddle. I'll bet that would open a world of new possibilities...

---

Klondike,

I think Dave Cory's modified Silver Bell (SB pot with homemade neck, 5 long strings) may have been tuned that way. Dave is a great Irish-style tenor banjo player who lived in the Boston area when I was there and is now back on the west coast I think. I heard his custom 5-string tenor was stolen last year, unfortunately:

theirishtenorbanjo.ning.com/vi...stolen-on

Listen to some of Dave's great playing here:

cdbaby.com/cd/magicsquare

Jeremy Kammerer also had a very innovative instrument he played like a (tenor? mandola?) when I would run into him in California Irish music sessions in the 1980s.... I could be way off, but I'm thinking it was a mandolin-banjo pot with a homemade neck that had 5 long gut strings, played single-string style with a pick.....

PG

---

Edited by - pgroff on 02/10/2011 11:39:10

DanielT - Posted - 02/10/2011:  12:41:00

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by pgroff

I do believe that amateurs can sometimes contribute research of very high quality.

---

Paul, I absolutely agree with you on this. But there's no harm in calling BS when you see it. (And it can go in the other direction as well–just because you might be a trained musician doesn't mean everyone's going to want to play with you.)

Klondike Waldo - Posted - 02/10/2011:  13:48:10

---

Paul, I'm sorry I did not know you when you were in The Boston Area. Sue Gedutis worked at Berklee Publishing when I was in the IT Department there. I didn't play banjo back then (1995-2000), mostly bagpipes- Highland, Lowland and Scottish smallpipes. I sat in in a few sessions at The Snug when she and her husband were leading them too. One of the button box players mentioned in the book, Billy Caples, played for our wedding back in 1982.

pgroff - Posted - 02/10/2011:  14:50:19

---

Hey Klondike,

Well, tell all the gang hello for me. What a great town Boston is, for every variety of Irish music. I wasn't playing the banjo when I lived there, but for a good while I got to play along with a lovely banjo player, Louise Costelloe (and her husband Tommy McCarthy on the fiddle) every Tuesday night at their pub, The Burren. Then there were great pro players always passing through on tour, sometimes joining the sessions, the local folks and new kids picking up the music, new musicians moving into town and the students over from Ireland for the summer.... Great scene, and I miss it.

PG

---

Edited by - pgroff on 02/10/2011 14:55:37

pgroff - Posted - 02/11/2011:  16:56:26

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrittDLD1


(One wonders if the Irish ever tried using a Saxophone in a ceilidh...)

---

Hi Ed,

Re: one example of contemporary use of sax (with tenor banjo) in Irish music:

youtube.com/watch?v=48DghVQ5Tg...e=related

PG

---

Edited by - pgroff on 02/11/2011 17:00:06

BDCA - Posted - 02/11/2011:  21:49:27

---

And another:

youtube.com/watch?v=yC3AwVWzd8...ed#at=248

Cya!

Bob

pgroff - Posted - 02/12/2011:  07:13:58

---

Hey Bob,

Another great example of Irish sax for Ed. Also another great example of a great personal banjo style -- an honest modern approach to using the tenor banjo as "music first" (not merely for nostalgia or a re-creation of the past) in the post-war era, an idea that has been a point of contention in this thread.

John made claims above that suggest to me he is downplaying the importance of the word "living" when we discuss a living tradition:

"Paul: You are right - I'm not getting it. I am not advocating that
the sole reason banjoists and others are emersed in Irish tenor banjo music is sentimentality. People simply like it. What I am advocating is that by its very repertoire (by and large) it becomes a sentimental journey. The music is from a bygone era - and this creates the aura. The music sets the stage. It settles like a fog and permeates the players, listeners and assemblage. It eminates a nostalgic tone that is unmistakable. I have difficulty understanding how this cannot be seen by those who have posted here.
Taking your points:
communicating with the feet of dancers - Jigs, reels polkas and the like? Traditional dances. Isn't it folk dancing to the tunes of yesteryear? This is how I define sentimentality.
enlivening all sorts of community gatherings, - a Ceilidh by another name? What is a living tradtion? I think its a tradition established in the past with the word "living" put in front of it because we happen to be doing it in 2011."

To me, what we mean by a living tradition is very important in this discussion, because that is the real refutation of his basic argument (re: Irish music) that in the post war period it is a "re-creation of the past."

In all these youtube clips (and in the video of Dave playing his customized version of a tenor banjo), the music is great in the present, being reinvented by fine players of all ages, and includes all sorts of elements that never before could have co-existed. The powerful music in the last clip posted by Bob does represent a truly living tradition, comparable to the omnivorous english language - modern, innovative, assimmilative, even though its history too is always present (in both senses of that last word).

I think that understanding was part of Ed's point in guessing about the use of saxophone.

Here's another example in which the Irish music tradition is so strong and vital that it has incorporated a very alien, ancient instrument from a very different, ancient musical tradition.... through the committed and original work of another fine musician:

youtube.com/watch?v=sMgw9xI-OcY


PG

---

Edited by - pgroff on 02/12/2011 07:27:45

DanielT - Posted - 02/12/2011:  08:18:40

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by pgroff

Here's another example in which the Irish music tradition is so strong and vital that it has incorporated a very alien, ancient instrument from a very different, ancient musical tradition....

---

Nice! Here's the tradition being played through a very modern instrument:
youtube.com/watch?v=MEk-gj0douk

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 02/12/2011:  09:38:38

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by DanielT

... Here's the tradition being played through a very modern instrument:
youtube.com/watch?v=MEk-gj0douk

---

I worked for the computer maker, DEC (Digital Equipment Corp.) back in the early-'80s.
At that time there was a LOT of work going-on about improving keyboards, and creating
alternative user-interface methods.

One of the things that kept popping-up was that the "Qwerty" keyboard was originally
designed to SLOW-down typists. (On the early Linotype and typewriters, the mechanical
keyboards couldn't work that fast.) Another... the ergonomics of the standard typewiter
keyboards really weren't optimum...

So... there were lots of 'blue-sky' concepts for various keyboard layouts. etc. One of the
keyboard ideas that got a lot of interest, (and is STILL around) was the 'split' keyboard --
where you had the left-half of the keyboard set at a compound angle to the right-half --
for better ergonomics:


Source:ergonomicsmadeeasy.com/blog/6-...keyboard/


I worked in DEC's Corporate Industrial Design Group -- and there were a few concepts being
worked-on by some other designers. One day I pointed out to them, and the Human Factors
Group, that split keyboards were a very good idea -- but NOT quite as innovative as they
thought. Since viable spilt keyboards had been around since the 1830s.

And I brought in my Wheatstone Aeola, to prove it.

Needless to say, most of them had never seen a concertina. Some of the engineers in the
group were quite familiar a "Wheatstone Bridge" electrical circuit -- but never knew that the
same Charles Wheatstone was also involved in the concertina!

What was I saying about Renewal, Rebirth, and Revival?
Traditional ideas keep on going, and going... just like the Energizer Bunny...

Best-
Ed Britt

PS --
What's really funny, is that I met some great folkies at DEC, in other departments,
who were heavily into traditional music and dance... THEY knew concertinas VERY
well... There was even a folk band in the Boston area called Wheatstone Bridge.

---

Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 02/12/2011 09:48:37

NYCJazz - Posted - 02/12/2011:  09:39:22

---

Daniel

Wonderful

beezaboy - Posted - 02/12/2011:  11:46:31

---

[quote]To make this clear:
It is the musical repertoire to which reference is made here
concerning the place of the tenor banjo in post WWII America.
I've been cited to two youtube posts that demonstrate young
people performing Irish Traditional Music. The age of the performer
does not define the musical repertoire or the age that the musical
selection was codified. My position is that the tenor banjo in
Irish Traditional Music is playing a sentimental repertoire of music
concieved in Ireland long ago.[/quote]

The YouTube posts with Sax and Nintendo are enlightening.
They also have in common a repertoire consisting of music
derived from past times.
Here are the Youtube Titles:
Seamus O'Donnell, John Carty, Brian McGrath, Jim Murray - More Reels
2 Irish reels played on khene :Trim the velvet
Irish jigs on Nintendo DS (Daigasso Band Brothers)
I am focusing on the tenor banjo in Irish Traditional Music is all.

---

Edited by - beezaboy on 02/12/2011 11:47:42

pgroff - Posted - 02/12/2011:  11:59:29

---

John,

As we have told you time and time again, in Irish music new repertoire is being composed all the time, and other tunes from outside the tradition are being incorporated within it.

You also made a claim earlier that this was a "style" of music that evolved in the past.

We are telling you:

The style is still evolving and continues to evolve.

New instruments (as the tenor banjo once was new to the tradition) are being added all the time.

New tunes are being written and played.

Old tunes are being played in a new style.

Ed made the point that this living tradition might even have incorporated such seemingly different instruments as the saxophone (different that is from the stereotyped instrumentation you list in your first post above)... I believe he may have been trying to illustrate for you the flexibility and ongoing life and growth of this tradition.

We then proved his speculation right (yes on the sax) and added more examples of seemingly different instruments that are being added all the time.

In Irish music, the tenor banjo is not likely chosen by many players because it is "old fashioned." It is one of a variety of instruments that have been shown to do the job. More recently, other fine musicians have proved that other instruments, originally not used in the Irish tradition, can also work well in the tradition.

Would you now like a series of youtubes showing postwar Irish tenor banjo players playing tunes composed in the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s 1980s, 1990s, and/or more recently?

Or is there *no possible evidence* that could cause you to drop this idea to which you are clinging?

PG

---

Edited by - pgroff on 02/12/2011 12:03:11

BDCA - Posted - 02/12/2011:  13:12:07

---

Hey Breezy Boy:

Traditional <> Sentimental

pgroff - Posted - 02/12/2011:  14:34:05

---

Angelina Carberry on tenor banjo:

youtube.com/watch?v=9FWQXuVwWD...e=related


In the video cited above, first tune is old, second is a modern composition of fiddle player Sean Ryan:

thesession.org/tunes/display/1868

Now, someone with an open mind might gain an interesting insight into the freshness and ongoing innovation in repertoire of the Irish dance music tradition by purchasing Angelina's lovely cd,

"An Traidisiun Beo" *

celticgrooves.homestead.com/cg...lina.html

thesession.org/recordings/display/1873

Here she plays, along with some great old tunes, a variety of recently composed tunes ... for example the reel written by Chicago fiddler Liz Carroll in honor of another postwar Irish traditional banjo player, Pauline Conneely! Other recently composed tunes on that cd were written by Charlie Lennon, Paddy Kelly, Paddy Fahy, and Finbar Dwyer.

BTW, in the youtube clip I posted above, the first reel played by the Khene player was Finbar Dwyer's "The holly bush:"

thesession.org/tunes/display/1566

Back to Angelina Carberry's cd -- this is just one example demonstrating the fresh, evolving repertoire from which today's and tomorrow's Irish traditional musicians will be able to draw, hardly "a sentimental repertoire concieved [sic] in Ireland long ago."

I admit I may be biased here, toward accepting such compositions by known authors as traditional... since I'm fortunate to have learned a lot from fiddler Brendan Tonra, some of whose tunes entered the tradition decades ago and others of which were composed in Watertown, MA this year..... and from Ed Reavy Jr, the son of one of the most prolific composers of Irish tunes... Ed sr. wrote most of his compositions in Philadelphia.

PG

* you should be able to find a translation of this Irish title on the web....

---

Edited by - pgroff on 02/12/2011 14:43:28

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 02/12/2011:  15:25:02

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beezaboy

quote:

---

...
It is the musical repertoire to which reference is made here
concerning the place of the tenor banjo in post WWII America.
...
My position is that the tenor banjo in Irish Traditional Music is playing
a sentimental repertoire of music concieved in Ireland long ago.

---

...I am focusing on the tenor banjo in Irish Traditional Music is all.

---

Mr. Beeze...

"Traditional" and "sentimental" are NOT directly interchangeable.
There ARE semantic differences between the definitions, meanings,
and cultural connotations of those two words.

I suggest you investigate the subtleties of those semantic differences --
to better understand WHY your position is being met with such a
negative reaction.

A 'Traditional repertoire' is NOT the same as a 'Sentimental repertoire'.
In what ways?

Best-
Ed Britt

---

Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 02/12/2011 15:25:25

beezaboy - Posted - 02/12/2011:  16:35:19

---

quote:

---

Would you now like a series of youtubes showing postwar Irish tenor banjo players playing tunes composed in the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s 1980s, 1990s, and/or more recently?

---

"Playing Tunes" - I assume you mean "Irish Traditional Music" tunes.

You can't.
Then it would not sound like a tenor banjo playing "Irish Traditional Music"
The very name chosen for this kind of folk music defines it as "Traditional".
"Traditional" relates to the past.
The tenor banjo in "Irish Traditional Music" is playing a repertoire
that is related to the past. Either tunes that were codified in the
past or tunes that were written yesterday to sound like tunes
codified in the past.
Synonyms for the word "Traditional" include "historic"; "ancestral";
"ancient"; "old"; "venerable".
I can hear and have heard the tenor banjo playing "Irish Traditional Music". What is the source of the repertoire? Here:
The bulk of it comes from the past, and is of some antiquity. Much of the repertory is known to have been current in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. Some is earlier in origin, and it is likely that some very old melodies and lyrics survive adapted to modern forms.
See: itma.ie/Publications/WhatIsLeaflet.html

Or:
Songs and tunes believed to be ancient in origin are respected. It is, however, difficult or impossible to know the age of most tunes due to their tremendous variation across Ireland and through the years; some generalization is possible, however, for example, only modern songs are written in English, with few exceptions, the rest being in Irish. Most of the oldest songs, tunes, and methods are rural in origin, though more modern songs and tunes often come from cities and towns. wordiq.com/definition/Irish_tr...nal_music
Now, I did not begin this thread to debate "Irish Traditional Music" but
started it in the "4-string" forum to receive ideas about the place of
the tenor banjo in the post WWII era.
It is obvious to me that the "Traditional" repertoire played on the tenor
banjo in Irish Music is music that was or sounds like it was developed
long ago.
The appeal for music written long-ago, I submit, is an appeal to
an emotion that is difficult to describe in English but the closest
word is "Sentiment". Yes, that's it: An appeal to sentiment.
The message sent by the repertoire played by tenor banjoists
playing "Irish Traditional Music" is a message that,i n some, evokes a
sentimental response in the soul of the listener. Of course, there may
be many souls who do not care for it. But, for those who do take pleasure in it, I submit, part of that pleasure is the hearing of
sounds from the past. A condition that differs markedly from the place of the tenor banjo during the Jazz Age.

Thanks to everyone who joined in with a collegial spirit.
Now, I'm going to cordially retire from this thread.

BDCA - Posted - 02/12/2011:  17:08:31

---

OK, I said I was outta here but I guess I am a glutton for punishment! Maybe others with a bit more sense than Breezy Boy, may learn something about ITM. For a so called or is it wanna be music historian, you seem to have a very poor understanding of either music or logic which is why I am really addressing this response to those with a functioning intellect. I am not calling names or trying to be rude..just stating the obvious..at least obvious to everyone but Breezy Boy.

ITM is traditional but it is also contemporary and is constantly evolving. It appeals to all ages and ranges from very strict acoustic music to music verging on rock and roll. When I play a reel on my synthesizer mandolin using a patch that sounds like jazz vibes..is it still Irish Trad???...I think so. When there is a sax, keyboards, electric bass in a group is it still Irish trad?? Absolutely!

I used to be a photography professor, and I had two types of students. Those with talent and ability and those who didn't. The untalented got hung up in the technical and never progressed to the art while the talented quickly learned and moved through the technical in order to support their art.

Breezy Boy, you seem to be hung up on the instrument and not one thing I have heard you say sounds like it comes from the mouth of a musician. I find your quest to come up with some sort of ???..what ever regarding banjos after WWII ludicrous and irrelevant. You are confusing the art with the technology. In Irish Trad, the instrument is incidental. No one really cares what you are playing as long as the music has life and soul and makes folks want to dance, tap their feet or tap a coin on a pint glass.

We used to say, If you can do..teach, which is why I quit teaching. It would seem here if you cant play, yabber on about banjos.... You just don't get it, you don't want to get it and you never will...

My remarks ONLY pertain to ITM and may or may not apply to other genres mentioned in this thread.

Bob

quote:

---

Originally posted by beezaboy

quote:

---

Would you now like a series of youtubes showing postwar Irish tenor banjo players playing tunes composed in the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s 1980s, 1990s, and/or more recently?

---

"Playing Tunes" - I assume you mean "Irish Traditional Music" tunes.

You can't.
Then it would not sound like a tenor banjo playing "Irish Traditional Music"
The very name chosen for this kind of folk music defines it as "Traditional".
"Traditional" relates to the past.
The tenor banjo in "Irish Traditional Music" is playing a repertoire
that is related to the past. Either tunes that were codified in the
past or tunes that were written yesterday to sound like tunes
codified in the past.
Synonyms for the word "Traditional" include "historic"; "ancestral";
"ancient"; "old"; "venerable".
I can hear and have heard the tenor banjo playing "Irish Traditional Music". What is the source of the repertoire? Here:
The bulk of it comes from the past, and is of some antiquity. Much of the repertory is known to have been current in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. Some is earlier in origin, and it is likely that some very old melodies and lyrics survive adapted to modern forms.
See: itma.ie/Publications/WhatIsLeaflet.html

Or:
Songs and tunes believed to be ancient in origin are respected. It is, however, difficult or impossible to know the age of most tunes due to their tremendous variation across Ireland and through the years; some generalization is possible, however, for example, only modern songs are written in English, with few exceptions, the rest being in Irish. Most of the oldest songs, tunes, and methods are rural in origin, though more modern songs and tunes often come from cities and towns. wordiq.com/definition/Irish_tr...nal_music
Now, I did not begin this thread to debate "Irish Traditional Music" but
started it in the "4-string" forum to receive ideas about the place of
the tenor banjo in the post WWII era.
It is obvious to me that the "Traditional" repertoire played on the tenor
banjo in Irish Music is music that was or sounds like it was developed
long ago.
The appeal for music written long-ago, I submit, is an appeal to
an emotion that is difficult to describe in English but the closest
word is "Sentiment". Yes, that's it: An appeal to sentiment.
The message sent by the repertoire played by tenor banjoists
playing "Irish Traditional Music" is a message that,i n some, evokes a
sentimental response in the soul of the listener. Of course, there may
be many souls who do not care for it. But, for those who do take pleasure in it, I submit, part of that pleasure is the hearing of
sounds from the past. A condition that differs markedly from the place of the tenor banjo during the Jazz Age.

Thanks to everyone who joined in with a collegial spirit.
Now, I'm going to cordially retire from this thread.

---

---

Edited by - BDCA on 02/12/2011 17:09:30

BDCA - Posted - 02/12/2011:  19:16:55

---

This should read:

We used to say, If you can't do..teach, which is why I quit teaching. It would seem here if you cant play, yabber on about banjos.... You just don't get it, you don't want to get it and you never will...

DanielT - Posted - 02/12/2011:  22:43:33

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beezaboy

The appeal for music written long-ago, I submit, is an appeal to an emotion that is difficult to describe in English but the closest word is "Sentiment". Yes, that's it: An appeal to sentiment. The message sent by the repertoire played by tenor banjoists playing "Irish Traditional Music" is a message that,i n some, evokes a sentimental response in the soul of the listener.

---

Beez, is expressing yourself in English really your problem? I just don't think your idea is very well thought through and you're being opportunistic with your data. In short, you're putting the banjo before the horse. But here's what it comes down to: if you really think your ideas are more interesting than your sources, you should commit them to publication and see how they fare off-board. It's as simple as that. – take a chance on your ideas and see how far you get.