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Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.banjohangout.org/archive/195952/2
Emiel - Posted - 01/13/2011: 00:38:47
quote:
Originally posted by banjofanatico
Jacques Brel is alive and well and living in Paris -- or maybe not.
Edited by - Emiel on 01/13/2011 00:45:16
beezaboy - Posted - 01/13/2011: 04:17:23
Here briefly & roughly is what I've learned about the tb in America:
1900 - Ragtime (Ossman & Van Eps record it on 5-string).
1900 - Beginning of "dance craze" in U.S.
1910 - Recording industry innovating and building.
1910 - Tenor banjo "invented" to supply dance ensemble banjo.
1910 - Tango introduced (from Argentina via Paris).
1910 - Tin Pan Alley cranks up.
1915 - Tenor banjo comes to fore as part of dance ensemble.
1915 - Tenor banjo to rhythm section of dance bands
1915 - Foxtrot (called "quick step" or "one step" variety.
1920 - Jazz ("hot", "sweet", "dixieland" - many names to describe style
1920 - Dance bands add instruments
1921 - Lange develops "modern" tenor banjo" (19 frets + resonator)
1923 - Vega & Bacon produce "modern" tenor banjo.
1925 - The Charleston, flappers, shieks, flasks & Dancing.
1925 - Eddie Lang plays the guitar.
1925 - Radio brings jazz and dance music home.
1930 - Dance bands add instruments; add arrangers; "hot" jazz in flux;
music slows down; smooth & refined; goes more 4/4 from 2/4; guitar replaces tenor banjo in rhythm section as it is more flexible and gives
smoother texture; string bass replaces tuba in rhythm section; foxtrot slows down; dance bands swell to "Big Band" and "Swing" in an orchestrated style of jazz to which the guitar is much favored. Tenor banjo "clang" begins decline.
1935 - Radio carries declining tenor banjo for a short while. Reser's Eskimos disband.
1935 - The tenor banjo is dead. R.I.P.
1948 - "I'm Looking Over A Four Leaf Clover" Art Mooney band begins tenor banjo sentimental era.
1955 - "The Banjo's Back in Town" - brief tenor banjo resurgance with nostalgia underpining
1960 - Candy striped boater tenor banjo in nostalgia nightclubs
1970 - Pizza parlor tenor banjo - a sentimental journey.
1980 to 2010 - Tenor banjo kept alive thru local and national organizations that congregate and "bash" from time to time.
The core of tenor banjo repertoire is music from teens and twenties.
The foregoing is documented in the literature both scholarly and popular.
There seems to be a dearth of material documenting the history of
the Celtic or Irish tenor banjo. I will speculate now and state that
this is due to the niche environment in which this genre exsists and to the few (tenor banjo population-wise) adherents that embrace the
style [BHO notwithstanding].
Compass56 - Posted - 01/13/2011: 09:26:30
quote:
1980 to 2010 - Tenor banjo kept alive thru local and national organizations that congregate and "bash" from time to time.
DanielT - Posted - 01/13/2011: 09:36:37
quote:
Originally posted by Compass56
This statement might be just a hair on the reductionist side of things, but I guess I get the gist of it.
Klondike Waldo - Posted - 01/13/2011: 10:37:38
quote:
Originally posted by beezaboy
Here briefly & roughly is what I've learned about the tb in America:
1900 - Ragtime (Ossman & Van Eps record it on 5-string).
1900 - Beginning of "dance craze" in U.S.
1910 - Recording industry innovating and building.
1910 - Tenor banjo "invented" to supply dance ensemble banjo.
1910 - Tango introduced (from Argentina via Paris).
1910 - Tin Pan Alley cranks up.
1915 - Tenor banjo comes to fore as part of dance ensemble.
1915 - Tenor banjo to rhythm section of dance bands
1915 - Foxtrot (called "quick step" or "one step" variety.
1920 - Jazz ("hot", "sweet", "dixieland" - many names to describe style
1920 - Dance bands add instruments
1921 - Lange develops "modern" tenor banjo" (19 frets + resonator)
1923 - Vega & Bacon produce "modern" tenor banjo.
1925 - The Charleston, flappers, shieks, flasks & Dancing.
1925 - Eddie Lang plays the guitar.
1925 - Radio brings jazz and dance music home.
1930 - Dance bands add instruments; add arrangers; "hot" jazz in flux;
music slows down; smooth & refined; goes more 4/4 from 2/4; guitar replaces tenor banjo in rhythm section as it is more flexible and gives
smoother texture; string bass replaces tuba in rhythm section; foxtrot slows down; dance bands swell to "Big Band" and "Swing" in an orchestrated style of jazz to which the guitar is much favored. Tenor banjo "clang" begins decline.
1935 - Radio carries declining tenor banjo for a short while. Reser's Eskimos disband.
1935 - The tenor banjo is dead. R.I.P.
quote:
Originally posted by beezaboy
1948 - "I'm Looking Over A Four Leaf Clover" Art Mooney band begins tenor banjo sentimental era.
1955 - "The Banjo's Back in Town" - brief tenor banjo resurgance with nostalgia underpining
1960 - Candy striped boater tenor banjo in nostalgia nightclubs
1970 - Pizza parlor tenor banjo - a sentimental journey.
1980 to 2010 - Tenor banjo kept alive thru local and national organizations that congregate and "bash" from time to time.
The core of tenor banjo repertoire is music from teens and twenties.
The foregoing is documented in the literature both scholarly and popular.
There seems to be a dearth of material documenting the history of
the Celtic or Irish tenor banjo. I will speculate now and state that
this is due to the niche environment in which this genre exsists and to the few (tenor banjo population-wise) adherents that embrace the
style [BHO notwithstanding].
Edited by - Klondike Waldo on 01/13/2011 10:38:26
NYCJazz - Posted - 01/13/2011: 11:02:31
quote:
Originally posted by Compass56
I'm not familiar with the work of Mr. Morgan.
banjofanatico - Posted - 01/13/2011: 11:47:18
Yes, thanks for projecting your own personal musical predjudices onto the music and presenting it as "history".
Emiel - Posted - 01/13/2011: 12:52:30
quote:
Originally posted by banjofanatico
Yes, thanks for projecting your own personal musical predjudices onto the music and presenting it as "history".
beezaboy - Posted - 01/13/2011: 12:56:03
quote:
Yes, thanks for projecting your own personal musical predjudices onto the music and presenting it as "history".
Edited by - beezaboy on 01/13/2011 14:06:31
beezaboy - Posted - 01/13/2011: 13:21:42
Photo #1 - schmaltz?
Photo #2 - sentimental appeal?
 Schmaltz? |
banjofanatico - Posted - 01/13/2011: 22:29:01
See how many more times you can use the word "schmaltz". Name-calling is so intellectual.
beezaboy - Posted - 01/14/2011: 02:29:39
quote:
First of all lets look at the definition of Schmaltz:
schmaltz also schmaltz (shmälts)
n.
a. Excessively sentimental art or music.
Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 01/14/2011: 03:46:30
John,
quote:
"Schmaltz" is a red flag word in the context of this discussion
clawhammerjazz - Posted - 01/14/2011: 09:23:44
Beeze, I want to express my appreciation for your tenor banjo time line, but like Klondike Waldo, perhaps add a suggestion or two for further follow up and possible additions. Klondike's reference to the San Francisco/West Coast traditional jazz revival might possibly be dated just a little earlier. The major influence was the formation of the Lu Watters' Yerba Buena Jazz Band in 1939. Two banjoists were part of the early band--Harry Mordecai and Clancy Hayes. While Hayes is the more famous (he was also a vocalist and drummer) , it's important to note that he played the guitar banjo primarily, and not the tenor. Mordecai could, therefore, be thought of as the pivotal four string banjoist that helped influence the revival. A similar revival in New Orleans (ca. '42-'44) followed on the heels of the one on the West Coast with the "rediscovery" of some of the traditional jazz musicians there, most notably, the trumpeter Bunk Johnson and the clarinetist, George Lewis. Germaine to this thread's tenor banjo discussion was the inclusion of Lawrence Marrero on purely rhythm banjo in the most influential New Orleans Johnson/Lewis revival bands and their recordings. Marrero's banjo in many ways "drove" the bands, and his influence, in my opinion, was substantial both in this country and in Europe, and has often been overlooked. I would also suggest you might be careful in dating the death of the tenor banjo in 1935. Your dating completely overlooks the tenor banjo's role in the emergence of western swing music. While it's true the tenor was replaced by the guitar in most of the popular bands in the 1930's and the swing era, the tenor not only held its ground but produced arguably in Smokey Montgomery one of its greatest players in that time frame when you have declared the instrument's death. As western swing emerged with the appearance of Milton Brown and His Brownies in 1932, Brown depended heavily upon the rhythm work (he also did melody breaks, too) of his banjoist Ocie Stockard. In fact, Brown was so dependent upon Stockard's banjo, he felt no need of a drummer for his ensemble. In her book, The Jazz of the Southwest (Univ. of Texas Press, 1998), Jean A. Boyd defines well the reason the banjo maintained it's importance in this emerging brand of music: "Because western swing bands played primarily for dancing in large dance halls or honky tonks and without public address systems, western swing rhythm sections were (needfully) more forceful and dominant than those of most horn bands." In that same vein, it's important to take note of the fact that although Bob Wills used drums (1934 OKC and beyond), he also utilized the tenor banjo in similar fashion, both with the work of Sleepy Johnson and Will's brother, Johnnie Lee. Will's Texas Playboys very first recordings (20 sides) were made in 1935 with Johnnie Lee on banjo. Ocie Stockard would also work later on with Wills. Still another important tenor banjoist of the era was Smokey Rodgers, who played the banjo for Spade Cooley's California based band. Rodgers was also the composer of several of Cooley's hits, including "Shame, Shame on You," which, in the early 40's became Cooley's theme song. As mentioned above, your date (1935) given for the tenor banjo's demise is the very year the other and best known Smokey of western swing and member of the Banjo Hall of Fame, Smokey Montgomery, joined the Light Crust Doughboys. Smokey's appearance with the Light Crust Doughboys in the 1936 Gene Autry movie, Oh Susannah, and his solo on the group's performance of Tiger Rag in the movie, should at least give you pause in your dating. John Mark Dempsey, in his book, The Light Crust Doughboys Are on the Air (Univ. of North Texas Press), reports a man coming up to Smokey later in life and telling him that as a youth he went back to see the movie, Oh Susannah, ten times just to be able to see and hear Smokey play the banjo again and again. You can check his performance out here: youtube.com/watch?v=vy4hoZdrHqU Finally, one wonders what influence, if any, the western swing banjoists might have had on Mordecai and others. So many of the same tunes the western swing bands played, like Tiger Rag, were picked up from the repertoire of New Orleans and the other bands of the 20's jazz era. Given the fact that California was one of the significant venues for western swing, and the 30's became the era of the Hollywood cowboy, it's at least worth considering a bridge might be there, or at least one that kept the tenor banjo's demise at bay. --Best regards to all, Cjazz
Edited by - clawhammerjazz on 01/15/2011 07:00:54
Klondike Waldo - Posted - 01/14/2011: 10:23:54
Thanks, CJazz. Lu Watters Yerba Buena Jazz band spun off several other bands, some of which concentrated on playing the music (And in the style of) of King Oliver's Creole Jazz Band. I recall the Bay City Jazz Band, and Turk Murphy's Jazz band in particular. I had a gig in Gloucester , MA one summer with Carl Lunsford who played with Turk. Nostalgia? Maybe. Schmaltz? Hardly.
beezaboy - Posted - 01/14/2011: 15:26:26
John - Thank you for your insight. I've been concerned about how
to treat these "territory" bands and the tenor banjo after the great
tumble the tb took in the Swing Era (Big Band). The Big Bands were
so popular nationally on radio and records that jazz history dominates the literature. From the historical perspective seen from the jazz band standpoint the tenor banjo was dropped in favor of the guitar.
Here is a quote from Winfred Sargeant, Jazz: Hot and Hybrid (New York: Da Capo Press, 1975), p. 225:
"The big commercial bands of the 1920's used it [tenor banjo], partly for its strong, twanging contribution to the rhythm section, but partly too, becauser it looked appropriate and was regarded as a sort of trade mark of jazz during that period. Since then it has tended to disappear almost entirely. Today, it still has a few faithful adherents, but in the vast majority of bands it has been replaced by the guitar"
The essence of this summary has been repeated many times in jazz history books where the research opportunites are plentiful.
I have not been totally unmindful of the path of the tenor banjo
after it was expelled from the Big Bands. Attached from my collection
is a photo of Lu Watters performing in 1947. I just haven't had direction until your post and Klodike's suggestions.
Thanks for the cite - I'll get busy.
John
 Lu Watters @ Hambone Kellys 1947 |
beezaboy - Posted - 01/14/2011: 15:51:14
Oh, I forgot in connection with CJazz's ideas -
Here is a photo of Slim Jim and his Rough Riders
1933-1934 from my tb photos. This was probably
the type of group playing western swing for dancing,
etc which I confess to having very little background.
 Slim Jim and the Roughriders 1933-1934 |
McMandolin - Posted - 01/14/2011: 17:08:52
Polka bands often used tenor or plectrum banjos. They aren't necessarily mainstream but polka bands are a part of American popular culture
beezaboy - Posted - 01/14/2011: 17:52:48
quote:
In her book, The Jazz of the Southwest (Univ. of Texas Press, 1998), Jean A. Brown
Mountain Blue - Posted - 01/14/2011: 23:27:44
quote:
Gracious! Is there something wrong with schmaltz? Somebody should have told me earlier because for the last 25 years I've been thinking that it was good because it was fun, the audience loved it and it made me a lot of money! I agree with Tony, as usual.
Frank
Edited by - Mountain Blue on 01/14/2011 23:29:47
John Gill - Posted - 01/15/2011: 03:39:06
Hey
Great to see some talk about the West Coast Revival and Lu Watters and Turk Murphy. I think I can add some insight into this area.
I played banjo with Turk Murphy's Jazz Band for 10 years. For those who may not know, Turk Murphy was the trombonist in Lu Watters' Yerba Buena Jazz Band.
The first banjo players in the Yerba Buena Jazz Band were Russ Bennett and Clancy Hayes. I met Russ many times during my time with Turk, he played a beautiful Vega Artist Deluxe tuned to guitar tuning and he played it left handed. Clancy always played a 6 string banjo. In the early days of the Watters Band he can be seen with a B&D Montana 6 string. So the sound of the early Watters Band was propelled by 2 guitar tuned banjos. I got to know Lu Watters also and he told me that he preferred the low end sound of plectrum and guitar tuning and he preferred that to tenor tuning. He liked the darker sound rather than the brighter sound.
In around 1946 Harry Mordecai replaced Russ Bennett. I got to know Harry too. He and his wife were regulars at Turk's club Earthquake Mcgoons. Harry also used guitar tuning, or as he called it, uke tuning. He can be seen in the photo Breezeboy put up of the Watters Band playing an open back Silver Bell Six String. He aslo had a Silver Bell Plectrum, a #2 0r #3 I think, and his main banjo was an Epiphone Recording A. He tuned his plectrums to guitar tuning. An interesting point worth mentioning is that Clancy Hayes was never a regular member of the Watters Band, but was brought in often for recordings and radio shows. He was a popular radio singer in the Bay Area during the 30's and 40's and he had a large following of fans. He also wrote some hit tunes (Huggin' And A Chalkin") and some western swing ("Broken Promises"). He finished out his career as intermission perfromer at Earthquake McGoons. The last banjo player with Watters was Pat Patton, a good player, who played a Weymann with the vine down the fretboard tuned PLECTRUM tuning (Hooray). Harry Mordecai and Pat Patton both went on to play with Turk Murphy. Turk also preferred the sound of the plectrum tuning to the tenor. He made one exception however for our Banjo Hangout friend Eddy Davis who did a stint with the band in the early 80's. Turk really loved Eddy's playing. I got moved up to the clarinet chair for awhile. I know Monte Ballou played a little with Turk on tenor and he was primarily a guitar player and 6 string banjo player, and there was another tenor player that did a short stint with the band in the 50's. But you'll find the West Coast Revivalists about 95% plectrum and guitar tuners.
Regards to all
John Gill
clawhammerjazz - Posted - 01/15/2011: 09:21:34
Beeze, thanks for your correction regarding Jean Boyd as the author of The Jazz of the Southwest. My mind was obviously focused on Milton Brown and his Brownies, hence the mistake of calling her Jean Brown. Such mind stuff seems to be happening all the more frequently these days. I went ahead and corrected my previous post. John G., thanks for your post and weighing in on the subject. I became a Watters, Murphy, Scobey and Hayes fan about ten years ago through my piano playing partner who used to hang out in the Chicago jazz clubs back in the days when Scobey was there. Please know I certainly consider and bow to your banjo and banjoist information as regards the Watters' band as being definitive. My misinformation regarding Harry Mordecai, who I did know was a plectrum player--but not his tuning--in part came from the Wally Rose bio that is to be found at the San Francisco museum site (sfmuseum.org/bio/rose.html) which lists Mordecai as part of the original band. Also, there is some information on Mordecai in Jim Goggin's book, Some Jazz Friends, Vol. 2, that indicates Mordecai came to San Francisco in 1938 as a musician and met Lu Watters shortly thereafter, hence my assumption. Your comments regarding some of the Watters' banjoists and Murphy's preference in banjo sound certainly helps shed some light, at least for me, on why the plectrum seems so strongly favored among west coast trad jazz players. Ultimately, what seems cool to me, though, is the fact that those few of us who actually care deeply about such things can share our various bits and pieces of knowledge and even misinformation here on the banjo hangout to gain a better and more accurate picture and understanding of the music we play and enjoy and the tradition of which we are a part. Again, thanks for your post. I'm grateful for what I've learned. --Cjazz
Edited by - clawhammerjazz on 01/15/2011 09:46:27
beezaboy - Posted - 01/15/2011: 10:15:43
JohnG - Thanks!
It is interesting that in the old cadenza magazines I have
been reading on microfilm (from Library of Congress) the
columnists of the early 1920's note that the plectrum
banjo is much favored on the west coast and the tenor
banjo on the east. The reason given is that the plectrum
tuning enables and facilitates close harmony chords whcih
blend much better in the ensemble or ork. The tenor, they
opine, is favored in the east because it can serve two roles
as a melody instrument and as a rhythm instrument. The
tenor, they say, produces open harmony which is not as
pleasing as the closed harmony of the plectrum. The tenor
being a compromise and also more "traditional" in the east
back then. Point is: it appears that the plectrum banjo has
a west coast tradition and appeal that apparently carried
forward from the 20's to the "Lu Watters era".
Klondike Waldo - Posted - 01/15/2011: 14:11:20
Beez, all the banjo players I worked with in the '70s who played plectrum were from the west coast or Colorado, except for one guy from Chicago who played Chicago tuning (go figure). There were a very few who played both tenor and plectrum- which often meant I had to be ready to shift keys depending on which banjo they were using. Excellent ear training!
BDCA - Posted - 01/15/2011: 19:34:21
Wow! I am really learning a whole lot about jazz banjo that I never even suspected. Thanks and keep it up!
Cya!
Bob
Viktor Velthuijs - Posted - 01/17/2011: 15:58:41
Interesting thread. Learning a lot, thanks for the discussion and sharing it all!
beezaboy - Posted - 01/20/2011: 06:37:31
Some remarks.
I'm reading Gage Averill's "Four Parts, No Waiting".
This book is not for the faint of brain.
It has been quite some time since I've encountered a book
with words and phrases never seen and concepts difficult to
fathom (it has been since I briefly majored in Engineering in college many yrs. ago).
However, from reading so far I have an early impression (by analogizing) that there is a distinction between the sentimentalism that surrounds the jazz tenor banjo and the sentimentality associatiated with the "Irish" tenor banjo. That distinction in a word
is "commercialism". The jazz banjo nostalgia tour and the placement of the jazz tenor banjo as a symbol of the carefree, boistrous past evolved from thoughtful folks who sought a monetary gain. "Four Leaf Clover" (1948) was motivated and carefully crafted to sell records
(it worked). The Red Garter-type atmosphere was created to fill
the establishment and sell food and beverages ($). Pizza with banjos and straw hats the same (altho it may not have started that way as Mr. Johnson seems to have had a sincere affection for jazz). However, the many pizza pretenders, it is submitted, were motivated by money not melody and by sheer number shifted the focus to selling nostalgia.
Now, the Irish folks sentimental journey seems more akin to the
Weavers and Pete Seeger genre. Old songs that evoke a memory-like
emotion. Perhaps more pure as it does not have as much in the way of a commercial underpinning. The melodies of old reels, jigs,
hornpipes and ballads perhaps conjure memory-like emotions that depict in the mind's-eye the gaiety surrounding the gathering of
friends and neighbors at a schoolhouse dance or other festival
enjoyed by forebearers. Whether motivated by lucre or motivated by
a sentimental yearning the result is similar. The tenor banjo today
takes us on a journey to the past
DanielT - Posted - 01/20/2011: 07:42:32
quote:
Originally posted by beezaboy
This book is not for the faint of brain.
quote:
Originally posted by beezaboy
Now, the Irish folks sentimental journey seems more akin to the Weavers and Pete Seeger genre. Old songs that evoke a memory-like emotion.
BDCA - Posted - 01/20/2011: 08:01:04
Brezaboy, you are confusing Irish Traditional Music (instrumental) with Irish folk music, which does run the gamut with a good deal of it running to the sentimental. However, we are talking about the role of the banjo and it really plays little or no part in Irish Folk Music. In fact, if I remember correctly, Tommy Makem played a 5 string in the 60s.
Cya!
Bob
pgroff - Posted - 01/20/2011: 08:04:07
beezaboy,
With greatest respect for you as a fellow banjo enthusiast and a fellow historian, you are really not "getting it" with regard to the Irish traditional music community.
Sure, nostalgia can be part of any human activity that has a history.
But you continue to insist in *reducing* the appeal Irish traditional music as *merely* nostalgia.
As others (like myself) who actually participate in Irish traditional music keep telling you, the main feature of this community is that it is alive and today the music is fulfilling its social role -- communicating with the feet of dancers, enlivening all sorts of community gatherings, and soul-satisfying just to hear. It doesn't exist only to remind us of the past, although we are always conscious of the history of the tradition to greater or lesser degrees.
Compare an old European city with its architectural reminders of the past (and a real pride in its history), but in which life goes on today with births, deaths, cell phones, internet....
To say that the value of say Paris or York is only "nostalgic" would obviously be insulting to those living their lives there, now.
I do understand that this can be a hard idea for some Americans* to grasp, because much of our popular culture has so highly valued "progress" or even a rejection of the past (technology, fashion, politics). Then the US has been swept by truly sentimental counter-trends that really do capitalize on nostalgia (such as those mock-1950s diners or the Disney theme park mock-communities). But though there are crass and mawkishly nostalgic strands in some varieties of Irish music (as you might find in some Polka music or in big band swing as sometimes played today), that's not really what the music is about to me and to the Irish musicians whom I respect the most.
Possibly you have been exposed to Irish music that does confirm your opinions. Please believe me, though that there is *also* a lot of "the real thing, with its value as music here and now, to an intergenerational community" in the Irish tradition. I really encourage you to seek out that community and its wonderful living music before you publish such glib judgments -- for your own sake as a scholar.
Best regards always,
PG
* Although there actually are a lot of "living traditions" in America that you will find, for example among hunters, gardeners, cooking traditions, etc... that are comparable to how Irish traditional music is understood and valued by those who love it.
Edited by - pgroff on 01/20/2011 08:05:59
Emiel - Posted - 01/20/2011: 09:01:51
quote:
Originally posted by BDCA
Brezaboy, you are confusing Irish Traditional Music (instrumental) with Irish folk music, which does run the gamut with a good deal of it running to the sentimental. However, we are talking about the role of the banjo and it really plays little or no part in Irish Folk Music. In fact, if I remember correctly, Tommy Makem played a 5 string in the 60s.
Cya!
Bob
Emiel - Posted - 01/20/2011: 09:04:19
quote:
Originally posted by pgroff
I do understand that this can be a hard idea for some Americans* to grasp
pgroff - Posted - 01/20/2011: 09:17:40
quote:
Originally posted by Emielquote:
Originally posted by pgroff
I do understand that this can be a hard idea for some Americans* to grasp
A very Europe-centric view. The USA is full of traditions. I think you know, but there are a lot of people over here that still argue that the USA has no history, culture or traditions...
Edited by - pgroff on 01/20/2011 09:21:53
Emiel - Posted - 01/20/2011: 09:27:30
PG, I assumed you were from Europe, because of that statement, I should have looked better. But that doesn't change the point. And I agree with you. And the other tenor banjo tradition in the US (jazz, standard tuning): Beez is right about the schmalz content often. I could do with some less. I do like the performance and sound of Eddy Davis and the Woody Allen band, btw.
DanielT - Posted - 01/20/2011: 09:31:12
quote:
Originally posted by Emiel
[quote]Originally posted by pgroff
A very Europe-centric view.
beezaboy - Posted - 01/20/2011: 09:35:06
quote:
As others (like myself) who actually participate in Irish traditional music keep telling you, the main feature of this community is that it is alive and today the music is fulfilling its social role -- communicating with the feet of dancers, enlivening all sorts of community gatherings, and soul-satisfying just to hear. It doesn't exist only to remind us of the past, although we are always conscious of the history of the tradition to greater or lesser degrees.
beezaboy - Posted - 01/20/2011: 09:51:40
quote:
he's just taking the piss...
BDCA - Posted - 01/20/2011: 09:56:15
quote:
Originally posted by Emielquote:
Originally posted by BDCA
Brezaboy, you are confusing Irish Traditional Music (instrumental) with Irish folk music, which does run the gamut with a good deal of it running to the sentimental. However, we are talking about the role of the banjo and it really plays little or no part in Irish Folk Music. In fact, if I remember correctly, Tommy Makem played a 5 string in the 60s.
Cya!
Bob
This is not about the five-string banjo. It is still used by those who now are The Dubliners, and others as well... And the tenor banjo is still used also in songs from the Irish repertoire. This summer I was at a concert by The Dubliners in Amsterdam, and Barney McKenna played the tenor banjo on songs like "The Black Velvet Band", "The Wild Rover", "The Auld Triangle"... And I like it, by the way...
DanielT - Posted - 01/20/2011: 09:58:39
quote:
Originally posted by beezaboy
Zealotry.
The tactic shall be to demean the individual because the ideas expressed are somehow threatening?
BDCA - Posted - 01/20/2011: 10:02:12
Hey Breezy Boy:
quote:
Originally posted by beezaboyquote:
he's just taking the piss...
See, here it is again. What have we here?
Zealotry.
The tactic shall be to demean the individual because the ideas expressed are somehow threatening?
It doesn't seem to be very flattering to the person making the post.
beezaboy - Posted - 01/20/2011: 10:10:36
quote:
Taking the piss means joking around or being facetious...
pgroff - Posted - 01/20/2011: 10:16:53
quote:
Originally posted by beezaboyquote:
As others (like myself) who actually participate in Irish traditional music keep telling you, the main feature of this community is that it is alive and today the music is fulfilling its social role -- communicating with the feet of dancers, enlivening all sorts of community gatherings, and soul-satisfying just to hear. It doesn't exist only to remind us of the past, although we are always conscious of the history of the tradition to greater or lesser degrees.
Paul: You are right - I'm not getting it. I am not advocating that
the sole reason banjoists and others are emersed in Irish tenor banjo music is sentimentality. People simply like it. What I am advocating is that by its very repertoire (by and large) it becomes a sentimental journey. The music is from a bygone era - and this creates the aura. The music sets the stage. It settles like a fog and permeates the players, listeners and assemblage. It eminates a nostalgic tone that is unmistakable. I have difficulty understanding how this cannot be seen by those who have posted here.
Taking your points:
communicating with the feet of dancers - Jigs, reels polkas and the like? Traditional dances. Isn't it folk dancing to the tunes of yesteryear? This is how I define sentimentality.
enlivening all sorts of community gatherings, - a Ceilidh by another name? What is a living tradtion? I think its a tradition established in the past with the word "living" put in front of it because we happen to be doing it in 2011.
and soul-satisfying just to hear - Why? Jazz, Swing, Boogie-Woogie, Big band, Rock & Roll is usually not satisfying to that degree. Such music is usually entertaining. Hymns, classical music and the like usually evoke a deeper emotional response. It touches some internal chord. And that chord in the case of Irish banjo, I submit, strikes some sort of nostalgia gene.
irisharts.org.uk/pt.do
From a personal note - I studied and played the highland pipes for many years. I belonged to an independent bagpipe band with a
bandleader, sgt., and others who immigrated from Scotland. I attended social gatherings and Highland festivals. I read the history.
I was into it in a big way. It was soul satisfying and I loved the music. The activity continued traditions and music from a bygone era. In a word: it was schmaltz. I knew its most fundamental draw was sentimentality then and I know it now. I wasn't reading about pipers in the daily news. I was reading about them in history books and magazines from organizations devoted to saving the past. I didn't think sentimentality every moment that I was participating but the trappings of sentimentality were ever present. I, like many people, enjoy schmaltz. But I am unable to elevate that which derives its being and essence from the past to a status commensurate with what is moderne. Justin Bieber tunes are moderne. Irish fiddle tunes are not. They represent a look (both visually and auraly) at the music that was.
DanielT - Posted - 01/20/2011: 10:39:55
quote:
Originally posted by beezaboy
What I am advocating is that by its very repertoire (by and large) it becomes a sentimental journey. The music is from a bygone era - and this creates the aura. The music sets the stage. It settles like a fog and permeates the players, listeners and assemblage. It eminates a nostalgic tone that is unmistakable. I have difficulty understanding how this cannot be seen by those who have posted here.
beezaboy - Posted - 01/20/2011: 11:35:45
Here we are only focusing on the tenor banjo in Irish music.
Mick Moloney writes in his "The Irish Tenor Banjo" found in the
O'Connor's tutorial that it was "tradtional music fans" that
resoundingly embraced Barney McKenna's tenor banjo and
that McKenna's Dubliners achieved popularity during the "Irish
and English folk revival".
Are there any other books or articles that deal with the
history and place of the tenor banjo in Irish music?
Klondike Waldo - Posted - 01/20/2011: 12:34:19
quote:
Originally posted by BDCA
Brezaboy, you are confusing Irish Traditional Music (instrumental) with Irish folk music, which does run the gamut with a good deal of it running to the sentimental. However, we are talking about the role of the banjo and it really plays little or no part in Irish Folk Music. In fact, if I remember correctly, Tommy Makem played a 5 string in the 60s.
Cya!
Bob
mikeyes - Posted - 01/20/2011: 12:54:18
quote:
Originally posted by beezaboy
Here we are only focusing on the tenor banjo in Irish music.
Mick Moloney writes in his "The Irish Tenor Banjo" found in the
O'Connor's tutorial that it was "tradtional music fans" that
resoundingly embraced Barney McKenna's tenor banjo and
that McKenna's Dubliners achieved popularity during the "Irish
and English folk revival".
Are there any other books or articles that deal with the
history and place of the tenor banjo in Irish music?
Edited by - mikeyes on 01/20/2011 13:05:53
yellowdog - Posted - 01/20/2011: 15:18:53
Fascinating history above, Mike. Thanks for posting it. I'm not a bluegrass player but I have to give you an early "heads up" that you will get objections to the last line of your reply above that states, "BG is stage music only, by the way...". Because anyone, beginners included, can attend and play bluegrass in crowded weekly informal bluegrass jams almost anywhere today, even here in Atlanta, and never go near a stage. BG is definitely not stage music only.
Thanks again for turning me on to ITM three years ago with your posts and website. I am very indebted to you because our ITM sessions, and even my practice sessions, are so much fun. And now I know even more from your excellent post above, (except for the BG comment.)
Frank
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