beezaboy - Posted - 01/20/2011:  15:20:36

---

Thanks Mike for the distictions you have defined.
You say:

quote:

---

and carrying on the tradition.

---

What tradition exactly?
Why is it important to carry on the tradtion?
How is the tradition carried forward.?
What are the parameters or limits upon the musical composition before it is deemed to fail to carry on the tradition?

One place I thought to look for Irish tenor banjo history
was the liner notes for tenor banjo recordings.
Here is one fairly typical of what I could find on the internet:
Sean O'Driscoll and Larry Egan, The Kitchen Recordings (Clo lar-Chonnachta, 2003).
The notes explain:
The title of the album says it all; this recording of Irish music on banjo or bouzouki and button accordion was recorded in the O'Driscoll kitchen on a Sony four-track recorder. That is not, I hasten to add, a comment on the technical quality of the production, which is for the most part exactly what it should be. Rather, it reflects what we have: the old tunes, admirably cranked out by two competent players who know their way up and down and over the back of their instruments, playing as for a group of friends squeezed into a small, cozy and sociable space. There are no fancy studio tricks here, just a well-chosen and well-balanced selection of jigs, reels and hornpipes, and one slow air; Irish music as it is meant to be.
And this is the essence of my feel for the tenor banjo in Irish
music and why I suggest that it is steeped in sentimentalism.

And, Straighty Flanagan plays tenor banjo on this CD [Irish Dance Music] described as:
24 tracks illustrate traditional dance-music repertoires, styles & contexts found in Ireland, Britain & America in the first half of this century.

I have found many more that are similar to the above. The appeal
seems to be the playing of music from the past. Or, as has been stated here, new compositions that draw from and sound like tunes from the past [hornpipes, jigs, reels, airs, ballads, sentimental songs].

BDCA - Posted - 01/20/2011:  15:36:26

---

Hey Breezy Boy,

You just don't get it regarding Irish Trad. You may be spot on regarding sentimentality in other forms of music but you come off as completely ignorant both in your knowledge of the genre and in your misinterpretations of a few written texts twisted around to justify your position.

I for one will not waste anymore bandwidth for what is becoming a lame argument. I am sure those others that are Irish musicians will agree and put this stupidity to rest.

Nothing personal but you are starting to sound like the troll I mentioned in the beginning of this thread.

Adh mór ort

Bob

---

Edited by - BDCA on 01/20/2011 17:29:39

DanielT - Posted - 01/20/2011:  19:03:54

---

Bob,

I speak English and use words and phrases that were used in the nineteenth century. Does that mean I'm steeped in sentimentalism?

NYCJazz - Posted - 01/20/2011:  20:17:26

---

Bob

There's no need for name calling.

You'll get more out of this site by being polite, even if you digagree.

BDCA - Posted - 01/20/2011:  20:41:43

---

Sigh...

No name calling ....simply making an observation that one of our members appear ignorant of a particular genre of music and does not seem to want to be informed. That's his prerogative and my comments cast no dispersions on his intelligence. As for the "T" work, again, an observation and not name calling.

I think that Beezaboy brought up an interesting topic and as stated earlier I learned a lot of history about the tenor in other genres.

Much like the "taking the piss" comment, I appear to have been misinterpreted.

Over and OUT!

Bob

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 01/20/2011:  21:13:24

---

Also in 3 different danish folk music styles the tenor banjo has survived and is still going strong.

One of the styles was developed icw. the introduction of the tenor in the 20s - in the two older styles the tenor replaced the mandolin back then.



Polle

NYCJazz - Posted - 01/21/2011:  07:31:40

---

Polle

Do you have links for any musical examples?

pgroff - Posted - 01/22/2011:  06:50:27

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by NYCJazz

Bob

There's no need for name calling.

You'll get more out of this site by being polite, even if you digagree.

---

Nathan,

I agree with you about the importance of respect here as we debate the facts.

It has to be said, however, that to describe the use of a particular instrument in a particular genre of music as "nostalgic" or "steeped in sentiment" or "playing tunes of yesteryear" can be very offensive to some serious musicians. Though some musicians do not mind the nostalgia label for what they do, others find this "name calling" in effect.

Just as in the case of terms for ethnic or racial self-identification, labels matter and a writer can show respect and a willingness to learn by being sensitive to how a "group" understands itself.

I really don't think John meant intentionally to offend. But if you are going to put a glib, pejorative label on the meaning or appeal of music for some community to which you don't belong, better be *very* convincing in your facts and arguments .... or have a very thick skin....

Another musical example would be "Dixieland" -- a self-identification by some, but an insult to others. Then we could go on to "minstrelsy," "smooth jazz...."

To most of us who are interested in the tenor banjo in Irish music, John has not been convincing. His arguments have also been a "moving target" as he retreated, from some pretty blatant claims made in his first post, to a slightly more nuanced position.

To me it's great to be able to learn from other points of view, so I am interested that John sees the role of the tenor banjo in postwar music as essentially nostalgic or retrospective. But I think this tells us more about him than about the tenor banjo in Irish music.

Best,

Paul

---

Edited by - pgroff on 01/22/2011 07:12:27

pgroff - Posted - 01/22/2011:  06:53:50

---

The OP:

quote:

---

Originally posted by beezaboy

While pondering the station of the tenor banjo in the post war
years I concluded that it has been relegated to a place of
sentimentality and nostalgia. It's presentation, image and
repertoire steeped in schmaltz. Candystriped coats and
boaters. Even the Irish phenomena complete with 1000
notes a minute is the product of Irish folk music, tin whistles, concertinas and the occassional bagpipe (hopefully Uilleann).

When writing on a topic my mentor always cautioned to write
the truth (that which can be supported by citation to authority).

Well?

---

bohemian - Posted - 01/28/2011:  07:49:27

---

Perhaps the most interesting and animated thread on the BHO in ages.

I saw and met Gerry O'Conner (sp) in No Calif a few years back. Interesting to note that in a discussion with him, he was tuned to CGDA, the "standard" tuning for tenor banjo and not GDAE, the "modern" Irish tenor tuning. He was also playing 19 fret instruments and not the 17 fret version favored by some of today's Irish tenor banjo players.

I see beezaboys point, I think.

Part of the extension of his premise , logic and postings is that ( forgive me for interpreting here) there really isn't any modern music or a clear tenor banjo specific evolution to any new style or sound or direction of the instrument. That the main focus of the tenor banjo is "nostalgic" or music form another age ie pre war.

I personally find no offense in his assertions or use of many of the terms and words that seem to strike at the core of devotees of a chosen genre be it early jazz Dixieland or Trad Irish ( not to be confused with Celtic.. new age folk fusion) .
I am sure it is obvious to all that the mention of 1000 notes is an exaggeration but a common opinion of many who listen to Irish muisc/Irish banjo.
For many years I was involved in Irish Trad music ( mostly as a box player) and attended sessions in Central and No Calif. I guarantee if you had heard one particular Irish Tenor banjo player at one of these sessions , you too would have the OP's opinion. And this banjo player was the session leader. Swell.

I have owned quite a few banjos, Tenor included.. but never interested in playing Irish Trad on one nor do I have a strong enough interest in Dixieland or early Jazz or the pre war music generally played on the tenors and plectrums to actually get serious about the four string. I would be interested in hearing music ,other than these traditional styles, being played on tenor and plectrum. This is not to say I don't enjoy Irish Trad, or Dixieland or Early/Hot Jazz...I do and in particular I really really like Western Swing on tenor ( havent heard WS on plectrum) Smokey was hot.

Another observation. I'll bet there are more 20's tenor Gibsons converted to five string ( including my 1925 TB3) than have remained as original tenors.

What I really appreciate about this thread is the passion exhibited about the banjo and history/musicology and the diversity of opinions and collective historical knowledge.

BTW for those of you who may not know this, P Groff is one of the finest Trad Irish concertina and box player/hisitorian/technicians in the States. I will add to that, generous and helpful and a major contributor to the world of trad music... be it IRTRAD, blues, R&B etc...

Always good to "see " you Paul

---

Edited by - bohemian on 01/28/2011 08:05:14

beezaboy - Posted - 01/28/2011:  14:06:51

---

quote:

---

I really really like Western Swing on tenor

---

Light Crust Doughboys

pgroff - Posted - 01/28/2011:  14:15:51

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by bohemian


I personally find no offense in his assertions or use of many of the terms and words that seem to strike at the core of devotees of a chosen genre be it early jazz Dixieland or Trad Irish ( not to be confused with Celtic.. new age folk fusion) .
I am sure it is obvious to all that the mention of 1000 notes is an exaggeration but a common opinion of many who listen to Irish muisc/Irish banjo.

Always good to "see " you Paul

---

Hey J,

Great to read your pull-no-punches stuff too.

I like how you put the laurel wreath on me (just as exaggerated as those "1000 notes") after giving me the Brutus treatment!

:-)

Seriously, I know there are differences of opinion among musicians:

'sOK with you then if I describe your own playing/repertoire (or your favorite musicians' playing/repertoire) as "steeped in schmaltz?" Cause that was one judgment that was received poorly by the Irish traditional banjo players.

with sincere* thanks but truly sincere respect as always,

PG

* "sincerity is everything in show business -- if you can fake that, you've got it made"

---

Edited by - pgroff on 01/28/2011 14:19:01

beezaboy - Posted - 01/28/2011:  17:37:59

---

Chauncey Olcott 1899.
The real jazz age tenor banjo in Irish music.
Listen:
youtube.com/watch?v=UgoArcyfBmE

beezaboy - Posted - 01/28/2011:  17:50:30

---

More:
youtube.com/watch?v=ooJCOadnaV0
If you don't like this you need an x-ray to check for an absence of heart

DanielT - Posted - 01/29/2011:  11:55:38

---

You're not calling these examples "Irish music," I hope?

drybones - Posted - 01/29/2011:  13:12:09

---

Traditional music gets updated depending on how it's played I'd say. The Pogues are a good
example of that (someone mentioned them) -- the Rolling Stones worked out of the blues
and so on.
A related question to the original posting might be -- why spend years laboring at playing
the banjo -- and learning songs that have limited commercial appeal -- when you can learn
cakewalk, or some other program, pretty quickly?
A connection to the history of the music ( a sentimental connection) is one of the reasons
I like it.

db

Klondike Waldo - Posted - 01/29/2011:  17:11:16

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beezaboy

Chauncey Olcott 1899.
The real jazz age tenor banjo in Irish music.
Listen:
youtube.com/watch?v=UgoArcyfBmE

---

Chauncy Olcott was an American, and not of Irish ancestry. As a Tin-Pan Alley songwriter, he wrote his "Irish" tunes to cash in on the 1890's fad of sentimental "Irish" songs for Music Halls. That was a nostalgia based style. Oddly enough, around the same time in Chicago, Chief O'Neill was collecting and publishing genuine Irish Traditional music.

---

Edited by - Klondike Waldo on 01/29/2011 17:12:08

drybones - Posted - 01/29/2011:  17:54:27

---

Chauncey was of Irish descent according to this:
lockport-ny.com/History/stories2.htm

He had a house in Saratoga Springs near where I work. At one time there was money
to be made writing for Irish immigrants.

cardcow.com/images/set296/card00504_fr.jpg

db

Klondike Waldo - Posted - 01/30/2011:  14:23:52

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by drybones

Chauncey was of Irish descent according to this:
lockport-ny.com/History/stories2.htm

He had a house in Saratoga Springs near where I work. At one time there was money
to be made writing for Irish immigrants.

cardcow.com/images/set296/card00504_fr.jpg

db

---

Perhaps he may have had some Irish ancestry, but that certainly does not make what he wrote traditional Irish Music.

beezaboy - Posted - 01/30/2011:  15:29:21

---

One history concerning Olcott and "Rose" is that he
was in Ireland walking with wife when inspired to
write the song. Whatever its history, it is a lovely song.
Spaeth writes that Olcott was an Irish singer.

---

Edited by - beezaboy on 01/30/2011 15:30:32

Klondike Waldo - Posted - 01/30/2011:  16:16:55

---

Spaeth may have written that Olcott was an Irish singer, but Chancellor Olcott was born in Buffalo. His mother was Irish, as was her second husband, Chauncey's stepfather. My Wild Irish Rose is indeed a lovely song, but it is no more a traditional Irish song than any of Stephen Fosters songs. It is a sentimental American song about nostalgia for Ireland. He was for a time and actor and singer of operetta. That's more likely where you would find the matrix for his type of composition rather than in traditional Irish music.

Emiel - Posted - 02/09/2011:  02:44:49

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beezaboy


1955 - "The Banjo's Back in Town" - brief tenor banjo resurgance with nostalgia underpining
1960 - Candy striped boater tenor banjo in nostalgia nightclubs

---

Came across a picture to further document this period in the postwar history of the four-string banjo. The great dance bands were declining, but the banjo was back from coast to coast:



From: The Wonderful Era of the Great Dance Bands by Leo Walker. Howell-North Books, Berkeley, California, 1964.

pgroff - Posted - 02/09/2011:  04:02:56

---

Emiel,

That's a great picture that does capture the "revival" or even "re-enactor" role of some musicians -- where they are obviously trying to conjure up for the audience a bygone era -- by their clothing, and presumably by their repertoire. Possibly they also tried to do their best to play in a style that they consider authentic to a previous era, though it's always challenging for a musician to accomplish that.

I personally would never discount the fun those guys were having or the entertainment value to their audience. Such "re-enacting" can be a very serious* and profound journey for a musician, or it can be a crude, exploitative, cynical, or ignorant parody of honest music. We can see all the levels of honesty in such revivalism if we look at the range of those who have been performing pre-war styles of American blues music, since the 1960s. The "early music" movement(s) in European art music, the "sea music" interpreters, and of course the civil war re-enactors would be other examples among many that come to mind. Some of those musicians are great, but for some the crass fakery dominates.

However, back to your photo .... some members here on the hangout who do play American music on the 4 string have gone on record that they would not want to wear such outfits or present their music in this kind of context.

PG

* To me, "serious" for a musician refers to depth of commitment and accomplishment, and doesn't imply "humorless." Great music can encompass every shade of emotion and experience, including joy, lightheartedness and fun!

---

Edited by - pgroff on 02/09/2011 04:06:58

BDCA - Posted - 02/09/2011:  04:09:39

---

The other problem with this picture is that the guy in front appears to be a large manikin suspended by that steel rod in his chest. What's up with that?

Cya!

Bob

Emiel - Posted - 02/09/2011:  04:48:05

---

PG, good analyzing...

Emiel

pgroff - Posted - 02/09/2011:  05:18:28

---

Emiel,

Thanks, and thanks BDCA for the light touch.

Sorry if my answers on this thread sound too academic. That's partly because I am trying to answer beezaboy's arguments in a very reasoned way to avoid a shouting match.... and I guess partly because I think that way when I'm writing. Not so much when I'm playing, I hope.

Re: individual musicians' willingness to "costume" for nostalgic effect, here's one example that illustrates my point:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Compass56

I've always taken the position that I would take any gig anywhere, and I will wear any outfit required. I've done rock things and jazz things, and I've dressed as I was asked. I've played bluegrass music in overalls and a corn cob pipe. I dressed as a sailor (The whole band did so.) to match a bank's marketing scheme at their stockholders meeting. With all of that said, I've never been asked to wear sleeve garters, a straw boater, and/or vest. If I was ever asked to wear that stuff, I would have to turn down the gig. I truly hate that stuff. I know others feel very comfortable in those clothes, but not me. To me, that outfit is a gross caricature of a certain style of music. For me, that outfit is a cliche in which I want no part.

Respectfully

Tony L.

---

I think it's interesting that Tony wouldn't mind "costuming" for bluegrass, but sees the sleeve garters as a caricature. Maybe (just my guess) this is because his personal integrity is more deeply invested in the quality of his New Orleans music and he wants to make sure that when he plays that music the audience respects it as music, not merely as nostalgic spectacle. Tony, tell me if I got that wrong.

PG

John Gill - Posted - 02/09/2011:  16:51:18

---

For a long time in the 1960's and 70's I played in "Banjo Nightclubs" In NY city we had Your Fathers Mustache, The Red Garter, The Red Onion and several other "Banjo Parlor" themed nightclubs. You had to wear the outfit. The only musician who didn't was a washboard player named Joe Terra who had his own outlandish costume. At The Mustache outfit was, white pants, white shirt, shoe string tie red and white stripped vest and arm garters. The wait staff wore the same outfit but with black pants. But you had to wear the costume or you wouldn't get hired. It was a fun place to work, and I don't remember anybody complaining about the dress except that the garters had a tendency to cut off the circulation in your arms. We worked 5 or 6 hours a night, breathing in huge clouds of cigarette smoke and drinking beer and eating peanuts and we got paid about $6 an hour. The real good guys and girls could make as much as $10 and hour. It was all manufactured nostalgia, but it was fun and the clubs did unbelieivable business. The main thing about those clubs was that they kept the banjo in front of the public, and aspiring banjo players had a place to watch and learn from the pros. Those were great days and I miss them. Sure it was corny, but it was a blast. Sometimes it's good to let the serious side of things go once in a while and just have fun.
John Gill

Compass56 - Posted - 02/09/2011:  17:48:42

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by pgroff

Emiel,

Thanks, and thanks BDCA for the light touch.

Sorry if my answers on this thread sound too academic. That's partly because I am trying to answer beezaboy's arguments in a very reasoned way to avoid a shouting match.... and I guess partly because I think that way when I'm writing. Not so much when I'm playing, I hope.

Re: individual musicians' willingness to "costume" for nostalgic effect, here's one example that illustrates my point:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Compass56

I've always taken the position that I would take any gig anywhere, and I will wear any outfit required. I've done rock things and jazz things, and I've dressed as I was asked. I've played bluegrass music in overalls and a corn cob pipe. I dressed as a sailor (The whole band did so.) to match a bank's marketing scheme at their stockholders meeting. With all of that said, I've never been asked to wear sleeve garters, a straw boater, and/or vest. If I was ever asked to wear that stuff, I would have to turn down the gig. I truly hate that stuff. I know others feel very comfortable in those clothes, but not me. To me, that outfit is a gross caricature of a certain style of music. For me, that outfit is a cliche in which I want no part.

Respectfully

Tony L.

---

I think it's interesting that Tony wouldn't mind "costuming" for bluegrass, but sees the sleeve garters as a caricature. Maybe (just my guess) this is because his personal integrity is more deeply invested in the quality of his New Orleans music and he wants to make sure that when he plays that music the audience respects it as music, not merely as nostalgic spectacle. Tony, tell me if I got that wrong.

PG

---

PG, I'm not much of a musician, but you're right. I deeply respect the New Orleans jazz that I love so much and try so hard to try to play. I guess I take my cues from my favorite musicians in NOLA. (Wendell Brunious, Don Vappie, Carl LeBlanc, Shannon Powell, Kermit Ruffins, etc.) Since they don't wear that stuff, I don't wear it. I have spoken to many of my New Orleans idols about the costumes. They all say basically the same thing: They say that those are dixieland costumes, not the garb of New Orleans jazz. They say that they don't associate dixieland music with their city. That music (they say) is more closely associated with dixieland meccas like Portland and Sacramento. I've never been to those cities, so I know nothing about that, but I know that I'm not comfortable in those clothes.

As for the overalls, I don't play bluegrass at all. That job was the one and only time I've every had a bluegrass gig. I have no emotional investment in that music at all. I was told to put on a pair of overalls, play a few bluegrass standards and go home. That's what I did.

Sincerely

Tony L.

beezaboy - Posted - 02/09/2011:  18:10:49

---

Mustache. New Orleans. 1960's.

Your Father's Mustache New Orleans 1960's

Compass56 - Posted - 02/09/2011:  18:13:58

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beezaboy

Mustache. New Orleans. 1960's.

---

That was a long time ago. I'm trying to deal with NOLA music circa 2011.

Klondike Waldo - Posted - 02/09/2011:  19:05:41

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beezaboy

Mustache. New Orleans. 1960's.

---

The Blonde lady playing banjo in that poster is Joannie Dragon, I'm pretty sure. She was playing in Boston and Cape Cod when I started at YFM back in 1969. That Picture may actually be from Boston, Cape Cod or New York. Jay Bracket was one of the trombone players in Boston, but he had played in NYC and NOLA along with Ronnie Bill. He , Ronnie, and George Blood (from Easton, MA) made an LP with George Lewis in New Orleans in 1965, a year before I started learning tuba as a high school sophomore. Neal Unterseeher(sp?) from the New Orleans YFM was the Bandleader in the Cape Cod YFM one summer. The club is still there in Dennisport, BTW, but has not been open for years. I saw the signs still on the old barn when I was down that way to play (bagpipes) for a wedding last July.

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 02/09/2011:  21:21:13

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beezaboy

Chauncey Olcott 1899.
The real jazz age tenor banjo in Irish music.
Listen:
youtube.com/watch?v=UgoArcyfBmE

---

Arrgh... I've tried to stay out of this one...

Beeze, you've GOT to be kidding!?!?

I hate to tell you... but THAT is NOT 'Traditional Irish Music"!!!!
THAT is NYC Tin Pan Alley -- at its finest! Right up there with
MacNamara's Band!

You're right... that IS.... (What's the Gaelic word for chicken fat?)
Most of the Trad Irish players, I know, would laugh their *sses off
at a remark that silly. (And probably dump a pint on you, as well!)

My Irish Grandmother would roll in her grave, hearing you say that.

She emigrated from County Tipperary, in 1914, when she was 18 --
and even knew how to thatch roofs. (Not that she ever needed that
particular skill again...)

Her brother, my Grand Uncle, played Irish fiddle and... concertina. I
remember enjoying visits to their house, when I was about 5 years old.
Unfortunately, he died shortly after that... So I don't remember any of
the tunes he played. But I can still remember the smell of his pipe tobacco.

Now, move away from the microfilm, slowly... and lay your highlighter down.
You need to get out of the house more often. There might even be a 12-step
program for it.

All of this is said as friendly teasing (REALLY!) --
by fellow banjo historian.

Best-
ED

Compass56 - Posted - 02/10/2011:  04:03:44

---

Beezaboy, I always enjoy your contributions to this forum, but now I'm a little confused. For six pages, you've talking about nostalgia as if it were a dirty word, yet, you're now talking positively about restaurant/bars from the 1960s where patrons pay to watch musicians, dressed in the garb of the 1890s, play in an extremely retro style. What gives?

Tony L.

---

Edited by - Compass56 on 02/10/2011 04:09:31

funkassfrank - Posted - 02/10/2011:  05:17:42

---

plobaire sicin is the irish for chiken fatthats for Ed btw

---

Edited by - funkassfrank on 02/10/2011 05:18:45

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 02/10/2011:  05:29:12

---

Thanks, Frank!

Best-
Ed Britt

beezaboy - Posted - 02/10/2011:  05:34:10

---

Hi Kids:
Topic: "Irish Traditional Music" & The Tenor Banjo.
The English language appears to be wanting for a word to describe
an appeal to a deep seated emotional attachment or longing.
"Sentiment"; "Sentementality"; "Sentimenalism"; "Nostalgia";
"Memory Lane" (probably more "Genome Lane" for very old music like "Irish Tradtional
Music") all fail to describe the condition. Basically, it is an emotional draw or appeal
to music that developed and evolved in times past. A music with deep roots in
the past if you will. And that's what "Irish Traditional Music" is. Harp and fiddle music.
The tenor banjo is used in "Irish Traditional Music" to re-create...to replicate
a style (type) of music that evolved eons ago. It's appeal is not to moderninity.
Its appeal stems from an enjoyment from hearing and playing metered, melodious
sounds that originated in times long ago.
This website explains it pretty well:
voyagesphotosmanu.com/irish_music.html
Contrast with the tenor banjo of the mid-twenties when it was an integral part
of the dance band rhythm section playing and contributing to the sounds of today (1920-1930); a music that was new (brand new; written yesterday)...or like Harry Reser (for example) that used the tenor banjo to play the melodies of today (1925-1935) not yesteryear.
Harry Reser and the Eskimos played today's songs on the radio for goodness sake.
The appeal of the tenor banjo in "Irish Traditional Music" is to sound the notes and meter
of a music concieved in the past. As such, it is being used to appeal to sentimentality.
And when accompanied by the trappings of long ago Ireland it becomes schmaltzy.
So what?, you say.
Well, I wanted to understand the disctinctions and write them down.
I have.
That's it. Me. I wanted to sort out the place of the tenor banjo in post WW II USA.
I have. It's solid.
AND - I have you, my friends on Hangout, to thank for your varied views. Thanks!
Topic: "Dixieland" tenor banjo in post-war USA.
For the most part, a clear appeal to the popular conception of the excitement of the
"roaring twenties". Some schmaltzy some more serious (jazz with a furrowed brow).
The tenor banjo in post war USA has been used to replicate a style and type of music
concieved during the period 1900-1935. Since WW II the tenor banjo has been a
spokes-instrument for a by-gone era. It's appeal to sentimentality.
As to both counts ("Irish Traditional Music" & "Dixieland"), I'm not expressing an opinion
as to worth or value. I'm not editorializing.
Just sayin'

pgroff - Posted - 02/10/2011:  06:11:38

---

John,

You are simply wrong.

The words you used, such as "nostalgia," "schmaltz" etc, and the descriptions you used of the appeal of Irish music to many of its current players, listeners, and dancers, are just literally inaccurate.

As well, many of them are pejorative, insulting to some serious musicians, as can be seen from their dictionary definitions and the responses of some musicians here. Some of those terms you chose are generally used in today's english language particularly to express the concept of poor musical taste and an appeal to cheap sentimentality.

You have been refuted time and again in this thread, often with more politeness than some of your stubborn and thin-skinned answers deserved. You have been dishing out the insults right and left, but seem surprised when those offenses are registered in the responses from many other players here.

I'm sorry to tell you this, but as an experienced teacher I recognize the signs of a person who is ignorant (in this case of the concept of living, traditional music) and who sadly resists learning something new. There's no shame in ignorance but an unwillingness to admit it will hinder if not prevent learning.

Let go of your misconceptions about the dominance of the past in the minds and feelings of traditional musicians. Sure, the history of the tradition is all around us, like the history of New York is present all around New Yorkers and water is present all around the fish. But traditional music is not undertaken solely to evoke memories of the past, it is not necessarily nostalgic or sentimental or schmaltzy (and when it is, that can be seen by many of the best musicians as a failure in quality). We are working with it today, like some carpenters use an old tool such as a hammer or a plane sometimes (but sometimes a nail gun), because it does the job for us now. Tradtional music is satisfying today as music, always new to us and always alive and changing. Sometimes we can take particular satisfaction that an ancient element within the tradition (maybe an old tune, though always it will need to be reinvented to exist in the present) "still works great" for our purposes, just like that old pattern of hammer can still be right for the job, but our job is not merely to enjoy the oldness. This is obvious when you see little kids making music in the tradition just for the joy of experiencing it, in the same way and at the same time that they are learning their first language:

youtube.com/watch?v=AE4E-fTifo...r&list=UL

youtube.com/watch?v=rUj33lE3wvY

And I could go on with such examples all day.

With great respect and hope that you can open your mind to what many of us are trying to show you,

Paul Groff

---

Edited by - pgroff on 02/10/2011 06:15:40

beezaboy - Posted - 02/10/2011:  07:02:45

---

quote:

---

You are simply wrong.

---

It's time to cite to authority in the literature - popular or academic.
Pure denials are not helpful. "I say, you say" are not productive anymore.
We've had our fun. Now, point out authority for your position.
If you can.
The issue is the place of the tenor banjo in post WW II USA vs. its
place (broadly) 1910-1935.
For "Irish tenor banjo" here's a couple from me:
Mick Moloney, "The Irish Tenor Banjo," in Gerry O'Connor, The Complete Guide to
Learning the Irish Tenor Banjo (Dublin: Waltons Publishing, 1977), pp. 5-53.
Moloney explains the exurberance and appeal of the banjo in Irish music in the 1920's "in part because the music was designed for lively dancing". Moloney writes: "In the early 1960's, the meteoric rise to commerecial success of The Dubliners in the Irish and English folk revival was to have a profouond effect on the fortunes of the banjo in Irish music." [Emphasis supplied].
Banjo Mike Mulready, "Irish Style Tenor Banjo," All Frets n. 50-01 (January/February 2007): pp. 34-38. Mulready writes: "The early 78 rpm Irish music 'enthnic' recordings provided the gateway for the tenor banjo as an 'Irish' instrument in the 1920's." Further Mulready states:
"Since then [McKenna], the Irish tenor banjo has grown in popularity with key exponents, such as, Mick Moloney, Gerry O'Connor and more recently Kieran Hanrahan, undrscoring a more defining role for the instrument on par with the fiddle to convey the melocic spirit of Irish traditional music..." [emphais supplied].
Mr. Hanrahan:
youtube.com/watch?v=oiP6UALS0Aw

beezaboy - Posted - 02/10/2011:  07:27:25

---

To make this clear:
It is the musical repertoire to which reference is made here
concerning the place of the tenor banjo in post WWII America.
I've been cited to two youtube posts that demonstrate young
people performing Irish Traditional Music. The age of the performer
does not define the musical repertoire or the age that the musical
selection was codified. My position is that the tenor banjo in
Irish Traditional Music is playing a sentimental repertoire of music
concieved in Ireland long ago.
Isn't it?
youtube.com/watch?v=AE4E-fTifo...r&list=UL

---

Edited by - beezaboy on 02/10/2011 07:28:25

BDCA - Posted - 02/10/2011:  07:27:27

---

Breezy Boy...your point is?????

pgroff - Posted - 02/10/2011:  07:39:38

---

Hi John,

Now you ask for evidence contrary to your (new, revised) claim that:

"The tenor banjo is used in "Irish Traditional Music" to re-create...to replicate
a style (type) of music that evolved eons ago. It's appeal is not to moderninity. [sic]"

1) For starters, how about the many answers to you from Irish musicians (before I entered this thread), telling you "no, you're wrong, we are not solely concerned with recreating the past." You have not convinced any of them, or me, that your perspective on our tradition is more profound than our own experience of it. Again and again, we have told you that the music is evolving in style, repertoire, instrumentation, the role of musicians in the wider society, etc. etc.

Even when traditional musicians may sometimes (not always) create a performance that could include an old tune, in an old style, on an old instrument, they will be doing so for their own present purposes which are rarely limited to purely retrospective emotions. We like to play it and hear it now because we like the music now. And more commonly, any performance today will include many modern elements uniquely combined in the present (for only one possible example, maybe a new style of melody instrument perfected around 2006, a tune composed ca 2000, a general sort of rhythm and phrasing that might go back to the 1920s, a style of ornamentation that might have been invented around 1960, an accompanying instrument that was introduced to the tradition around 1970, etc. etc...).

Next, how about the evidence I just presented to you in my last post, of a young girl my daughter's age, for whom playing and enjoying Irish music is obviously a part of her present musical experience with no decades-old memories to evoke. Note she is now joining the company of an intergenerational community who all can share this music in the same way they could share the shade or fruit from an old tree -- in the present, because it's great right now.

Are you going to tell me that as she learns to read, or to ride a horse, or to cook a meal, or play a video game, these are "nostalgic," "schmaltzy," or purely retrospective activities because some other person did them before she was born?

Although if I read you correctly, you seem finally to have retreated from some of the negative terms you hurled (without ever apologizing for your rudeness in making the offensive characterizations they imply), you still are insisting that Irish music is about the past.

As has been pointed out to you in many responses, this is a narrow view. Reminds me of the story of the six blind men and the elephant. You are grasping one part of the reality but mistakenly thinking that is the whole.

This tendency is also apparent when you work with sources such as those you quote. You are noticing the aspects of the tradition (and the statements others make about the tradition) that fit your previous perspective, but you are not getting the big picture.

Good luck in your scholarship and further writing on this subject!

Best regards,

PG

---

Edited by - pgroff on 02/10/2011 07:44:45

beezaboy - Posted - 02/10/2011:  08:11:58

---

Dear Paul:
Actually I did apologize when I realized that my initial flippancy
hurt some feelings or in some cases engendered rage.
Posted - 1/8/2011 6:33:48 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
a fool
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, I see now that I am fool for starting this thread.
I did not realize that it would become so incindiary.
It was not my intention to insult anyone or denigrate their music.
I was Just probing for insight.
I'm sorry.
_______________________________________________________

More:
The tenor banjo lies silent in its case until the musician plays it.
The musician employs the tenor banjo, in part, to convey a message.
The message is found in the tunes selected by the musician. The repertoire.
The tenor banjo is just an object without its connection to the repertoire.
My research into the messages being sent by the tenor banjo
in Post-WWII America involve and spring from feelings of nostalgia and sentimentality.
That emotional response does not have to be learned or experienced.
I think it is in part environmental and part heredity.
Now, the message being sent by the tenor banjo post WWII is different from
the message being conveyed during the tenor banjo of the Jazz Age. During
the Jazz Age the tenor banjo was considered a modern instrument with a
repertoire of modern music.
For the past several decades post WWII the tenor banjo through its message
has been a spokesman for by-gone times. Both for the "Dixieland" genre and
the "Irish" music genre.
One only needs to look and listen and my conclusion, I submit, is valid.
However, if someone has citation to popular or academic authority about the
place of the tenor banjo in post WWII America please let us know.

pgroff - Posted - 02/10/2011:  08:20:05

---

Hi John,

I'm not seeing any apology from you subsequent to this post of yours from page 4 of the thread:

quote:

---

Originally posted by beezaboy

Some remarks.
I'm reading Gage Averill's "Four Parts, No Waiting".
This book is not for the faint of brain.
It has been quite some time since I've encountered a book
with words and phrases never seen and concepts difficult to
fathom (it has been since I briefly majored in Engineering in college many yrs. ago).
However, from reading so far I have an early impression (by analogizing) that there is a distinction between the sentimentalism that surrounds the jazz tenor banjo and the sentimentality associatiated with the "Irish" tenor banjo. That distinction in a word
is "commercialism". The jazz banjo nostalgia tour and the placement of the jazz tenor banjo as a symbol of the carefree, boistrous past evolved from thoughtful folks who sought a monetary gain. "Four Leaf Clover" (1948) was motivated and carefully crafted to sell records
(it worked). The Red Garter-type atmosphere was created to fill
the establishment and sell food and beverages ($). Pizza with banjos and straw hats the same (altho it may not have started that way as Mr. Johnson seems to have had a sincere affection for jazz). However, the many pizza pretenders, it is submitted, were motivated by money not melody and by sheer number shifted the focus to selling nostalgia.
Now, the Irish folks sentimental journey seems more akin to the
Weavers and Pete Seeger genre. Old songs that evoke a memory-like
emotion. Perhaps more pure as it does not have as much in the way of a commercial underpinning. The melodies of old reels, jigs,
hornpipes and ballads perhaps conjure memory-like emotions that depict in the mind's-eye the gaiety surrounding the gathering of
friends and neighbors at a schoolhouse dance or other festival
enjoyed by forebearers. Whether motivated by lucre or motivated by
a sentimental yearning the result is similar. The tenor banjo today
takes us on a journey to the past

---

Here we have you ascribing a motivation of "sentimental yearning" to Irish traditional musicians post-WW2, if I am following the somewhat loose argument you make. Again, in the context of musical taste, the word "sentimental" is a pejorative to many* -- as well as inaccurate as a reductive summation of the motivations of many Irish musicians.

Again, it's one thing to share your own personal feelings about what Irish traditional music evokes for you (or the competitive highland pipes tradition, which is different in many ways from the mainstream of Irish traditional music as I know it). It's really a different kettle of fish to tell some other group what they are doing, from your perspective as an outsider. The onus is on you to convince your reader that you are right. Anyone here now convinced by John?

PG

*for example:
dictionary.net/sentimental

---

Edited by - pgroff on 02/10/2011 08:33:47

DanielT - Posted - 02/10/2011:  08:42:45

---

Beez, would it be fair to say that you're not an actual musicologist, just a hobbyist when it comes to doing historical research and critical theory?

pgroff - Posted - 02/10/2011:  09:01:44

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by DanielT

Beez, would it be fair to say that you're not an actual musicologist, just a hobbyist when it comes to doing historical research and critical theory?

---

Hey Daniel,

If your point amounts to a "defense on the basis of diminished capacity," I think that would be sad. John has clearly committed to an ambitious program of collecting banjos, researching their history, and publishing his conclusions. I for one have been taking his work seriously.

IMO the best respect I can show him is to respond very directly and honestly to *his own request* for responses to his preliminary conclusions, as stated by him in this thread.

Best regards,

PG

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 02/10/2011:  10:15:19

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beezaboy


... the message being sent by the tenor banjo post WWII is different from
the message being conveyed during the tenor banjo of the Jazz Age. During
the Jazz Age the tenor banjo was considered a modern instrument with a
repertoire of modern music.

For the past several decades post WWII the tenor banjo through its message
has been a spokesman for by-gone times. Both for the "Dixieland" genre and
the "Irish" music genre ...

---

Perhaps this topic should have been held on the 'Banjo Philosophy Forum"
since a philosphical position is at the core of the discussion.

Isn't it interesting that the music that WAS "modern" and popular during the
Jazz Age... no longer holds that same position? That seems to be a fairly
common occurrence with "innovation". It soon gets surpassed by the NEW
best thing. And then the 'half-life' (existence) of each innovation seems to get
shorter every year... Ad nauseum.

And I say that as a Product Designer -- who's chosen field IS innovation.

But there is one thing that is somewhat constant with human-nature, and
has been for the last few millennia:

. . . Renewal, and Rebirth.

Art forms have been created, flourished, forgotten, and REVIVED -- again,
and again -- for eons. Picasso was influenced -- by African tribal art, and
the cave paintings a Lasceaux -- to CREATE NEW works! (Which, in turn,
are now old hat.)

The Romans copied the Greeks. The Renaissance (literally re-birth)
copied BOTH of them.

The same process happened throughout MUSICAL history. There were
several revivals of "Folk Musics" -- centuries before the 1960s!

I'm with the Mayans and Aztecs -- 'life' is NOT a straight 2-dimensional
"time-lime". It's more like a 3 dimensional helix (or even spiraling vortex)
where cycles repeat. But those 'similar' cycles repeat in ever-changing
ways.

Some 'artists' (of ALL types) want to PUSH the envelope, and make
heroic changes to art forms. (Some succeed. Some crash and burn.)

Other 'artists' just want to make continual SMALL refinements to long-held
(cherished?) traditions. And those traditions can LIVE for centuries, and
milennia -- progressing in tiny steps. (And they are no less important, than
the more radical methods of innovation.)

The Tenor banjo was a 'new' instrument, when it was adopted into a LIVING,
existing, long-established tradition of music in Ireland. (Just like the concertina
before it.) The tenor banjo didn't START Irish Traditional Music. ITM was
already there! It was ALIVE, and it was doing just fine.

(One wonders if the Irish ever tried using a Saxophone in a ceilidh...)

POPULAR music is based on COMMERCIAL market economics. TRADITIONAL
musics are based on LOVE, and FUN! -- and come from the heart. Jazz started
as an 'indigenous' music -- which became commercially popularized. (With LOTS
of less-than-competent 'wannabees' jumping on the bandwagon.)

Just like:
... o Minstrel music In the 1840s
... o Brass band music in the 1880s
... o Ragtime in the 1890s
... o Jazz/Blues in the 'teens
... o Country music in the '20s
... o Swing
... o Boogie-woogie
... o Bepop
... o Cool Jazz (and other later Jazz forms)
... o R&B
... o Rock'n'roll
... o Folk Music / Singer songwriter
... o Psychedelic/ Heavy Metal
... o Disco
... o Punk Rock
... o Rap
... o Etc. etc. -- and whatever is up-and-coming THIS season!

40 years from now there will be Rap revivers... (And probably, yet
another revival of it, 150 years from now...)

When the popular form loses it's COMMERCIAL popularity... It
RETURNS to the FOLKS who created it. Who love it regardless.
And who will continue to pass it on -- in some form -- as it creates
a NEW tradition.

Yes... perhaps that IS 'sentimental' -- but there is nothing
negative or debased about it.

If anything... Once music leaves the Commercial realm -- it
returns to its HONEST form.


Best-
Ed Britt

(Feel free to 'cite' me -- as long as it's not for speeding.)

---

Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 02/10/2011 10:30:14

Emiel - Posted - 02/10/2011:  10:30:29

---

quote:

---

[quote]Originally posted by beezaboy


... the message being sent by the tenor banjo post WWII is different from
the message being conveyed during the tenor banjo of the Jazz Age. During
the Jazz Age the tenor banjo was considered a modern instrument with a
repertoire of modern music.

For the past several decades post WWII the tenor banjo through its message
has been a spokesman for by-gone times. Both for the "Dixieland" genre and
the "Irish" music genre ...

---

I agree with the message. Unlike the tenor banjo the five-string banjo has been used to explore more modern music too, usually called "progressive styles" of five-string banjo playing, mainly some pretty modern forms of jazz. Not too popular, by the way, compared to bluegrass or oldtime... The tenor banjo hasn't done this (yet).

In modern forms of jazz, as far as the banjo is concerned, the tenor banjo has left, and the five-string is there, sometimes... There has also been some five-string banjo in pop music, cf. The Eagles or, recently, Mumford and Sons. Nowadays the tenor banjo always refers to days gone by, the five-string just most of the time...

pgroff - Posted - 02/10/2011:  10:34:41

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrittDLD1



(One wonders if the Irish ever tried using a Saxophone in a ceilidh...)



Best-
Ed Britt

(Feel free to 'cite' me -- as long as it's not for speeding.)

---

Ed,

Great post.

Yes on the saxophone in Irish bands. It was used in the dancehall bands in Boston and Philadelphia (citations available!) and noted flute player Josie McDermott (RIP) among others also played the saxophone. A lot of 20th century Irish and Irish-American bands were generalist entertainers for mixed Irish audiences. They played the most modern popular music of the day (prewar Jazz, then postwar popular music of different kinds), and could alternate this with traditional tunes for set dancing or ceili dancing. Sax has also showed up on some great recent recordings out of Ireland.

The sax was used to play the melodies of Irish dance tunes as well as in the pop music.

As you suggest, this process is an echo of earlier events such as the assimilation of English tunes, Scottish reels, military marches, quadrilles, continental waltzes, polkas, mazurkas, etc. etc into the Irish traditional repertoire.

True, a very complicated history in which at any one time, different participants had different musical tastes and goals -- and then, these tastes and goals also changed greatly over time, along with the changing repertoire and influences. Since the tenor banjo began to be used by some traditional Irish musicians, it has had a variety of different roles at different times and the playing styles and repertoire continue to evolve. Though there *is* a past to the postwar history of the tenor banjo in Irish music, the story is not *about* the past. This is a very different picture than the one John has painted.


PG

---

Edited by - pgroff on 02/10/2011 10:47:18

DanielT - Posted - 02/10/2011:  10:52:23

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by pgroff

If your point amounts to a "defense on the basis of diminished capacity," I think that would be sad John has clearly committed to an ambitious program of collecting banjos, researching their history, and publishing his conclusions. I for one have been taking his work seriously.

---

And sometimes you just have to tell the bodhran player to stop, even though he may have a very nice bodhran. Listen, I think what he's collected is great–I really do–and it's clear that he's going very deep and I respect his commitment to his archival sources. As someone with a Ph.D. in musicology, I, too, have spent a great deal of time in the archival trenches and find it exciting, gratifying work. However, I know that scholarship isn't really about simply collecting and because in this thread he's put the cart before the horse (or, the object before the human element, or the banjo before the driver) at each step, and then expected us to take his word that his perspective is the way it is, I think it's a fair question for me–and anyone else, really–to ask.

To answer his question, there is no authoritative published "history" of the traditional Irish banjo. There are several short-form thumbnail sketches out there (he's cited them, and I'm sure you've seen them), but none of them presents anything of any real analytic substance. And yet, he tells the "kids" that "we've had our fun" and it's time to "cite to authority in the literature - popular or academic." What I'm saying that his secondary sources have outlived their use value and if he's actually interested in sharpening up his analysis he needs to turn to the people in the tradition who talk about this stuff regularly. There are several who have come into this thread to tell him just such a thing, but they don't seem to make a difference to him. But then again, maybe he just doesn't want to be informed. Or maybe he's just taking the piss...I don't know what his deal is but it's fun to argue about.