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beezaboy - Posted - 01/07/2011: 07:33:01
While pondering the station of the tenor banjo in the post war
years I concluded that it has been relegated to a place of
sentimentality and nostalgia. It's presentation, image and
repertoire steeped in schmaltz. Candystriped coats and
boaters. Even the Irish phenomena complete with 1000
notes a minute is the product of Irish folk music, tin whistles, concertinas and the occassional bagpipe (hopefully Uilleann).
When writing on a topic my mentor always cautioned to write
the truth (that which can be supported by citation to authority).
Well?
beezaboy - Posted - 01/07/2011: 07:54:26
quote:
Well what?
Fishing for your opinions.
Is my conclusion valid?
Jim D - Posted - 01/07/2011: 08:34:25
Perhaps you have the framework of the universal banjo truth....
quote:
While pondering the station of the _______ (fill in type) banjo in the post war years I concluded that it has been relegated to a place of
sentimentality and nostalgia. It's presentation, image and repertoire steeped in schmaltz. ____________ (describe type of music-style-specific schmaltz.).
Yes, I'm a cynic.
trapdoor2 - Posted - 01/07/2011: 08:47:34
Makes me wonder exactly when the tenor/plectrum was first schmaltzified. I mean, did Hollywood do the dirty deed or did some popular postwar venue like Mikey Finn’s pull the pin on the banjo-schmaltz grenade? Surely Hollyweird had a lot to do with propagating the image of the 1890’s ice-cream ‘n’ banjos image.
Nostalgia is always a strong driver. By the end of WWII, people who had been in their teens and 20’s prior to the turn of the century (1900) were now the first gen of ‘elderly’ to benefit from ‘advanced’ medical treatment such as penicillin, etc. Their impact on the banjo is probably one of transmission to following generations…tales and stories to kids and grandkids mean a lot. These nostalgic tales are often muddled, hyperbolic, recast or stolen (uncle Bob tells uncle Joe’s story as if it were his own). I can easily see where when Gramps talks about the wild Steamboat banjo days, his grandkids are visualizing Eddie Peabody (who is popularly selling 33-1/3 LPs in the postwar era) maniacally strumming on the hurricane deck while everyone dances along.
It isn’t much of a leap from there to Hollyweird’s portrayal of boater-enhanced-ice-cream-striped strummers serenading their favorite bustle-bouncin’-babe.
From a musical standpoint, I think Eddie Ross was the earliest strummer (chord melody?) to record as a solo stylist. He had perfected his style on the 5-string (and he didn’t use a plectrum) just after the turn of the century but AFAIK, he didn’t actually record until 1921.
beezaboy - Posted - 01/07/2011: 10:00:51
I'm going to jump in for a minute because I am really
interested in your views.
I will opine that the ingredients for the tb schmaltz grenade
were made in 1948 when bandleader,Art Mooney (particular
purveyor of past-sentimentalities) went out and purposefully
hired Paul Whiteman's banjoist, Mike Pingitore, to make the
old 1927 "I'm Looking Over A Four Leaf Clover" record. The tune
went to number one demonstrating that there was money
in nostalgia.
BDCA - Posted - 01/07/2011: 11:29:13
You could possibly make the same comment about Mandolins looking back to the heyday of mandolin orchestras. On the other hand, some of those "nostalgic" instruments are selling for $250,000 and up. And your comment on Irish music is clearly from a position of complete ignorance.
Schmaltz is in the eye of the beholder...
Cya!
Bob
trapdoor2 - Posted - 01/07/2011: 11:51:49
Well, that recording evidently got Mr. Peabody to thinking about cashflow. 
I suspect there was a general feeling of nostalgia after WWII. The Art Mooney recording was a hit and hits = fanbase. Nostalgia isn't anything new, naturally; every generation has its own...often 20yrs previous (50's look back to 30's, 70's look back to 50's, etc.) but sometimes further back.
However, somebody decided to combine anachronistic components to create a fictional milieu...and it grew legs. Were Art Mooney & Co. dressing up in boaters?
I'm still blaming Hollyweird.
beezaboy - Posted - 01/07/2011: 13:11:12
quote:
And your comment on Irish music is clearly from a position of complete ignorance.
Yes. I admit ignorance about the "Irish" tenor banjo phenonenon.
I'm under the impression it is about playing
old Irish fiddle tunes
on the tenor banjo. Single string melody plucked with a pick a la the mandolin. Harry Reser with a brogue. "Paddy Went To Dublin" plunk plunk. Is there something new about the music...is the repertoire
revolutionary? If it is as I think...playing the fiddle music of yesterday (yestercentury(?) note for note on the banjo then it is a sentimental journey. If not, I would like to be enlightened.
BDCA - Posted - 01/07/2011: 14:40:37
Yes. I admit ignorance about the "Irish" tenor banjo phenonenon.
I'm under the impression it is about playing old Irish fiddle tunes
on the tenor banjo. Single string melody plucked with a pick a la the mandolin. Harry Reser with a brogue. "Paddy Went To Dublin" plunk plunk. Is there something new about the music...is the repertoire revolutionary? If it is as I think...playing the fiddle music of yesterday (yestercentury(?) note for note on the banjo then it is a sentimental journey. If not, I would like to be enlightened.
First of all there is no "phenomenon" that I am aware of and yes, some of the tunes are hundreds of years old and others are relatively recent, but that is immaterial. The music we play developed as dance music, hence the different tempos which conform to different dance steps...jigs, reels, slip jigs, etc. It has only been in the last 50 years that the music came out of the kitchens and into the pubs and onto the stage.
The sentimental, nostalgic side of Irish music is the Danny Boy type crap that is popular in a lot of Irishesque pubs in major cities from New York to Bangkok. Much of it was written in New York by Jewish songwriters in decades past, but totally unrelated to Irish Traditional music or this banjo related topic.
If you want to be "enlightened" Google Enda Scahill or Gerry O'Connor. Very little nostalgia there...
Bach is played note for note on the violin..is that also a sentimental journey? Maybe your genre is House Music or Trance?
I find it hard to believe that someone who claims to be a musician by virtue of being involved on a music oriented forum can make such simplistic and lame comments. Or are you just a troll?
Cya!
Bob
NYCJazz - Posted - 01/07/2011: 15:57:37
I'm of the opinion that pretty much ALL banjo music out there, including Bluegrass is schmaltzy and has a major element of phony nostaligia.
I'll leave out Irish banjo out of that statement because it's a genre that I don't have much experience with.
The BG community is under the delusion that their music wasn't a post WW-ll phenom.
It's kinda ironic that the phony nostalgia surrounding the tenor/plectrum genre is for the 1890's... an era BEFORE the 4-string was even around!
I consider myself fortunate that I was never exposed to the schmaltz. I played in a legitimate trad jazz band back in the late 70's when I was in college, and I've been in the big city for many years, which has allowed me to experience a lot of banjo in a context of top quality jazz.
Klondike Waldo - Posted - 01/08/2011: 06:07:03
The tenor banjo enjoyed a resurgence in the Trad Jazz revival (although many of the West Coast banjoists played plectrum) in California starting around 1942, so it's not strictly a post-war phenomenon. I can hardly agree that the 1920's tenor banjo craze was without schmaltz and hype.
I cut my teeth as a professional musician just over 40 years ago playing in "Banjo bands", particularly in Your Father's Mustache in Boston and Cape Cod. Yes it was schmaltzy, but it was also lots of fun and a wonderful training ground for a performer, an many of us were introduced to Trad Jazz through just such bands. I played with guys who played with George Lewis in New Orleans, with Turk Murphy in San Francisco, and I played for a few years with BHO member Mike Hashem and Jimmy Mazzy (At Sweeney's Gay '90s" for starters) you get the picture.
Edited by - Klondike Waldo on 01/08/2011 13:07:24
ruraltradpunk - Posted - 01/08/2011: 09:17:20
quote:
Originally posted by beezaboy
quote:
And your comment on Irish music is clearly from a position of complete ignorance.
Yes. I admit ignorance about the "Irish" tenor banjo phenonenon.
I'm under the impression it is about playing old Irish fiddle tunes
on the tenor banjo. Single string melody plucked with a pick a la the mandolin. Harry Reser with a brogue. "Paddy Went To Dublin" plunk plunk. Is there something new about the music...is the repertoire
revolutionary? If it is as I think...playing the fiddle music of yesterday (yestercentury(?) note for note on the banjo then it is a sentimental journey. If not, I would like to be enlightened.
As an Irish person, and a trad player, I find it pretty brassy that someone who admits ignorance about both trad music and the tenor banjo in trad music can so flippantly dismiss it - there are lots of "living" traditions out there mate, and Irish traditional music is one of them. As for enlightenment - it's the digital age, so enlighten yourself if you're so inclined. Check out the Irish Tenor Banjo site that hangout member Ptarmi set up, among other things.
Cheers,
Jill
beezaboy - Posted - 01/08/2011: 13:26:23
"Troll"?
"Brassy"?
I think some of you folks have an exalted view of the music you play.
Or should I say "defend".
Hackles up when someone questions the genre. Why?
Why do you find it necessary to launch a personal attack when your idiom is questioned?
Old fiddle tunes suddenly become "living traditions".
That sounds like jargon that masks the issue presented.
I've seen and heard Scahill, O'Connor, McKenna and others.
They are terrific tenor banjo players in the "single string" style.
Their virtuosity is not the issue.
The issue is the era from which the music is drawn and presented.
I see a correlation between the tenor banjo/tuba combination popular in the 1920's and the tenor banjo/concertina blend. They both are antiquated by todays measure.
The repertoire for Irish tenor banjo seems to be old fashioned music from a bygone era. Jigs and reels are long passe just as the one-step foxtrot faded away. Where are jigs and reels danced today? At the local bistro? I think not. I imagine they are danced at folk festivals complete with period costumes celebrating a past unknown to most of the curious attendees.
And that horseshoe lands near the schmaltz pin.
BTW - save the vitriol it just makes me smile at your provincialism.
ruraltradpunk - Posted - 01/08/2011: 13:54:18
Who's launching personal attacks now, Beezaboy? The final line of your post says it all - your arrogance is mind numbing - thanks for reminding me of why I don't spend much time here.
Compass56 - Posted - 01/08/2011: 14:01:33
I'm not particularly interested in nostalgia. I'm interested in jazz. (jazz harmony, jazz arrangement, jazz soloing, etc.) when I listen to my favorite banjoists (Vappie, Eddy, Cynthia Sayer) I don't hear banjo. I hear jazz, and the jazz they play is as modern as tomorrow.
BDCA - Posted - 01/08/2011: 15:04:24
Breezeboy, you are clearly a fool and I will waste no more bandwidth on this thread....
beezaboy - Posted - 01/08/2011: 15:33:48
quote:
a fool
Yes, I see now that I am fool for starting this thread.
I did not realize that it would become so incindiary.
It was not my intention to insult anyone or denigrate their music.
I was Just probing for insight.
I'm sorry.
Compass56 - Posted - 01/09/2011: 09:25:11
I like this thread. Like all of the music that I like, this thread has brought out passion, intellectual positioning, anger, and point of view. I hope more people decide to post here. Beezaboy certainly set the tone early on in his original post. From the first line (to quote my grandfather) "The price of poker went up":
"While pondering the station of the tenor banjo in the post war years I concluded that it has been relegated to a place of sentimentality and nostalgia. It's presentation, image and repertoire
steeped in schmaltz. Candystriped coats and boaters. Even the Irish phenomena complete with
1000 notes a minute is the product of Irish folk music, tin whistles, concertinas and the occassional bagpipe (hopefully Uilleann)."
These lines are somewhat incendiary I guess, but what do they really say that is so offensive? To me, not much. They say that 4-string banjo has become a bit sentimental and schmaltzy. If one goes to a dixieland music festival or types in "4-string banjo" into the "Search" box at YouTube, he will find that Beeza's point isn't too hard to defend. A lot of that stuff is pretty nostalgic in a bad way.
I do not, however, feel that these charges can be leveled at all banjo music. Don Vappie, Cynthia Sayer, and Eddy Davis (among others) are creating beautiful interesting music that is (thankfully) free of the problems to which Beezaboy alludes. Their music is challenging and new (even on 90 year old tunes). To me, the key to making music that doesn't suffer from these maladies is to think music first and banjo second. This statement may seem obvious, but as I listen to the music of many of today's banjo stars, it is clear that they throw everything out the window in favor of a banjoistic approach. The sad (to me) sentimentality to which Beezaboy speaks usually happens when banjoists take such an approach. I guess that's why I listen to a lot records by Cynthia, Eddy Davis, and Vappie. Their styles are very different from one another, but they all seem to think music first and banjo second.
Beezaboy, thanks for this interesting, thought-provoking thread.
Respectfully
Tony L.
Edited by - Compass56 on 01/09/2011 19:18:11
funkassfrank - Posted - 01/10/2011: 04:24:23
As an Irishman,I'm pleased to say I'm with beezaboy all the way,trad Irish music is schmaltzy,sentimental and stuck in a particular time as is trad jazz,isnt that the reason it's called trad?And what of it,if we wanted to play contemporary music i'm guessing most of us wouldnt be playing banjo,we would be stuck behind a bank of synths,mixers and turntables,it is the sentimentality and oldy worldyness of the banjo which draws me to it and I'm a youngish guy,so lets put down the handbags guys,all us banjo nuts are sad sentimentalists.Peace and love.Peter
BDCA - Posted - 01/10/2011: 05:17:00
As an Irishman,I'm pleased to say I'm with beezaboy all the way,trad Irish music is schmaltzy,sentimental and stuck in a particular time as is trad jazz,isnt that the reason it's called trad?
Just because you are Irish it doesn't mean you can't be ignorant about Irish trad. There are many Americans totally ignorant of Jazz, House, Trance, Bluegrass, Classical, etc. I, a musician for almost 45 years, admit ignorance of most genres of music..especially Opera.
First of all lets look at the definition of Schmaltz:
schmaltz also schmaltz (shmälts)
n.
a. Excessively sentimental art or music.
b. Maudlin sentimentality.
c. Liquid fat, especially chicken fat.
Well there is definitely NO chicken fat in Irish trad. I would also hesitate to call the lively dance music played in pubs and stages around the world sentimental nor maudlin. So I think we may have a semantic (as opposed to Semetic...chichen fat..get it...) issue here.
Is there schmaltzy Irish music...ABSOLUTELY..but it isn't Irish trad. Danny Boy is the epitome of Irish Schmaltz. In fact it isn't really Irish...written by Frederic Edward Weatherly, an English lawyer in 1910. Many of the "I wish I was back in Ireland" songs can be awfully schmaltzy and were really written for the prosperous, but homesick Paddys in New York at the turn of the century. I cringe when I have to play some of those tunes at gigs....
Trad, on the other hand is a different animal. When we say trad, we are referring to what is essentially instrumetal Irish Dance music in the form of jigs, reels, set dances, slip jigs and hornpipes. Some hundreds of years old and some brand new. It simply doesn't fit the definition of schmaltz.
BTW,attached is the instrument I played at last nights "gig". It's a 5 string synth Mando-Blaster played through a Roland guitar synthesizer. I also play a carbon fibre giuitar and used to play in a Poguesesque band in Ft. Lauderdale called the Big Shillelaghs. We played a few schmaltzy songs when we had to but we usually kicked ass...and we NEVER did Danny Boy. We were supposed to tour with Garth Brooks in Ireland but the band showed up drunk to the contract meeting in Miami and that was the end of that... No sentimentally there.
Cya!
Bob
Edited by - BDCA on 01/10/2011 05:17:54
funkassfrank - Posted - 01/10/2011: 06:29:16
Hey Bob,thats just what I was I was gettin at although in a roundabout,slightly tongue in cheeky kind of way,all forms of music have their fair share of cheesy tunes even the most contemporary forms,I dont profess to having an indepth knowledge of trad Irish but neither would I be completely ignorant and whilst I can appreciate the virtuosity of players such as scahill and O Connor et al,jigs and reels just all sound the same to me going round and round and never going anywhere,but thats just individual taste.I do however love the trad punk sounds of The Pogues,Blood or Whisky Dropkick Murphys etc.BTW I'd love to hear how that super mando synth doohickey of yours sounds,any chance of a sound file or YT clip of her in action,if it soundsw half as cool as it looks,I'll have some please!Peter.
BDCA - Posted - 01/10/2011: 06:46:19
,jigs and reels just all sound the same to me going round and round and never going anywhere
EXACTLY! Lots of the Guinness shirt crowd in all the pseudo Irish bars in the States think exactly the same...and all of us serious trad musicians know it. You really have to be seriously into the music before you can understand the subtleties and nuances of the various tunes. There are two different 5 part tunes I play which are so similar I will sometimes start one and finish the other because I slip into the wrong tune. To any NORMAL person they sound almost identical. Irish trad is a bit like Jazz used to be...very few rich Irish trad superstars out there. When I lived in Ireland no one made any money playing trad. Show bands playing schmaltzy country music were the rage...
As for the Mandoblaster..I use it like a tenor banjo, banjolin, pedal steel guitar, rock organ, steel drums, vibes amongst other things. After our gig in Ft. Lauderdale (we wrapped up at 2am) I'd head next door to a small jazz club and sit in with a synth guitar player and his band... For example, we played Galway Girl last night and I used the pedal steel function..sounded great!
I'll try to post some tracks in the near future.
Cya!
Bob
yellowdog - Posted - 01/10/2011: 09:02:58
Gracious! Is there something wrong with schmaltz? Somebody should have told me earlier because for the last 25 years I've been thinking that it was good because it was fun, the audience loved it and it made me a lot of money! I agree with Tony, as usual.
Frank
trapdoor2 - Posted - 01/10/2011: 10:09:59
quote:
Originally posted by yellowdog
Gracious! Is there something wrong with schmaltz? Somebody should have told me earlier because for the last 25 years I've been thinking that it was good because it was fun, the audience loved it and it made me a lot of money! I agree with Tony, as usual.
Absolutely not! Schmaltz is always required for good soup.
In my opinion, the schmaltzy TB/PB stuff (which I associate with Dixieland, not IR Trad) has a place, no different than any genre of music. If there was still a Shakey's Pizza Parlor here, I'd be right in there with my tenor or plectrum. What I don't care for is the 'faux' history that usually goes with it. Just one of my pet peeves: nothing more, nothing less.
My folks used to haunt Micky Finn's in San Diego back in the '60's, so I guess I have Dixieland in my DNA...
DanielT - Posted - 01/10/2011: 10:41:47
Yep, this is an interesting thread! Beez, I have to agree with some of the negative response you've received in this thread. Your statement about Irish banjo in your original post doesn't really ring true, and I would be fascinated to see the 'authoritative citations' that support your claim. If it's the only part of this post you respond to, please fill us in on the citations that led to that statement.
As I read further, my thought was that it's not about having an exalted view of the music we play, it's about someone who admits not knowing that much trying to be pithy and speak about and "solve" a tradition he obviously (and admittedly) has little experience with. You ask where do people dance reels? I play in NYC and see it all the time. I mean, you have older people, but the ones I'm friends with are men and women in their 20s and 30s who grew up with it. There are even more kids who do it. And it's not just NYC–I played a ceili dance in Mississippi this summer in a barn-sized venue. It was filled with people dancing Irish sets and I didn't notice one person under thirty there.
And Compass, you asked what was so offensive, well...I would say that the entire sentence is fairly confounding. Saying that Irish music is "a phenomena" makes it sound like new generations discovering the music are inauthentic or somehow less entitled to participate in the living tradition, saying that it's "1000 notes a minute" fails to recognize well established regional styles that have a different swing, arguing that it's "the product of Irish folk music" doesn't really make any sense to me at all because the premise of "folk music" it's based on is questionable history (unless you were part of of the 60s folk revival, when its use as a marketing term hit its zenith), and citing "the occassional [sic] bagpipe (hopefully Uilleann)" makes me and anyone associated with Irish music wonder what his exposure is all about. I won't even touch his later "Harry Reser with a brogue" statement.
Compass56 - Posted - 01/10/2011: 10:53:46
My comments were only about trad. jazz. I can't comment on Irish music or Beezaboy's comments on Irish music, because I know nothing about Irish music. One of my New Year's resolutions is to learn more about that stuff. My cousin loves Irish music, and I want to understand and share in his enthusiasm. Maybe after I do a little research I'll be able to comment on Beezaboy's comments on Irish music.
Klondike Waldo - Posted - 01/10/2011: 13:51:39
Beez, I'm sorry you live in a part of the country where people don't still dance to jigs, reels, hornpipes and Strathspeys. It's a lot of fun, the music is cracking, and to tell you the truth, that's how I met my wife. There are sessions and dances around here every night of the week- Irish set and ceili dancing, Scottish Country Dancing, Cape Breton, New England Contra none of it awash in schmaltz.
Compass56 - Posted - 01/10/2011: 14:14:04
I don't know what most of those words mean, but that sounds awesome!
claquato - Posted - 01/11/2011: 12:31:26
Beez,
I play the tenor because I was given an old Gretsch by my father in law. It was his father's banjo who used to play it at barn dances on the praries here in Canada. They played a lot of jazz/swing at the time because it was popular for the people who wanted to dance and familiar to the guys who were playing the music. Then the intsrument was given to me and now I am learning to play it in the GDAE tuning because I am just completely hooked on the sounds that come out of it and the tuning seems to make sense to my head and fingers. It just sounds right to my ear.
I grew up hearing the older fiddle tunes both on radio stations and in the area surrounding where I grew up in rural Washington state. I stumbled on to Rob's Scottish banjo music that he transferred from older Scottish lute tunes. I love the sounds of both traditions. They work for whatever whacky combination of cultures I've come from. I'm not personally looking to be Irish or Scottish or to belong to any other era than the one I live in. It's the tunes I hear that I like and the fact that they make me actually want to move my feet (both of which seem to be left) along with the music. When I listen to older Irish? Scottish? Cape Breton? Blue Ridge? tunes that we are still plinking out on our intruments I am thoroughly entranced by the fact that a piece of music is a specific expression of of a specific combination of moments. It's an aural picture of somebody's hope, despair, choices, consequences- what have you. When I play (or try to play) Flowres of the Forest I'm actually putting pitch to what somebody else felt 400 years ago. That's pretty cool. I know this is all a bit romantic and yet I don't feel schmaltzy about it. I don't give a hoot n' holler about being garbed up or thinking I'm being authentically anything other than one man bring another man's beauty back into the sunshine and rain. The rhythms and lilts are just plain delicious to my ear. I also like listening to stoner metal (Clutch, Down and Bison) oldtime (the Haints, Carolina Chocolate Drops, Erynn Marshall) outlaw (Johny Cash, Hank 3, Kris Kristopherson) gypsy punk (DeVotchKa, Gogol Bordello, Zydepunks) blues (Dock Boggs, Gus Cannon) and jazz (Django, Bela) for the same reasons that I like hearing Irish trad (Angelina Carberry, Enda, Neil Nolan) - it all meets me where I am right now in whatever "now" is. I'm with you that schmaltz is not an attractive quality for how I see the world right now. I don't think it inherently relegates things to being passe though. I think it's just another patina to look through when experiencing an object or expression. This is how I see the tenor banjo (jazz, blues or Celtic) and five string banjo (bluegrass or oldtime) instruments and the music we play on them.
Have fun with it,
Jason
Compass56 - Posted - 01/11/2011: 13:19:25
Jason, I really like your point of view. Thanks for sharing it.
claquato - Posted - 01/11/2011: 20:31:53
Thanks Tony,
I appreciate the feedback. This is one of several lively threads goin right now and I hope this trend continues on the Hangout. Lively interaction certainly is a means of us sharpening each other for the better...
Jason
Ronnie - Posted - 01/12/2011: 10:16:40
Post war tenor banjo?? Freddie Morgan, the music was slapstick and it was fun!!
Compass56 - Posted - 01/12/2011: 10:19:48
I'm not familiar with the work of Mr. Morgan.
beezaboy - Posted - 01/12/2011: 13:05:51
Emil:
Thanks for the link. That's the first time I've heard sexy tenor banjo.
But here's my kind of stuff. Really.
Listen to the song....enjoy the harmony.
I'm into the music when the tenor banjo was born.
youtube.com/watch?v=lVizhyu-vR4
Emiel - Posted - 01/12/2011: 13:14:29
I like that kind of stuff, but I can't really hear the banjo through my MacBook (is there one?). I'll connect some speakers tomorrow (already late evening here)... Nice music anyway...
beezaboy - Posted - 01/12/2011: 13:17:25
No tb. Too early, I think.
It's about goin' dancing.
The catalyst for the tenor banjo.
Emiel - Posted - 01/12/2011: 13:35:57
Jaques Brel was amazing...
DanielT - Posted - 01/12/2011: 14:36:32
quote:
Originally posted by beezaboy
Draw a pint mates. Close your eyes. Drift back to yesteryear.
Are these your "authoritative citations"?
beezaboy - Posted - 01/12/2011: 16:22:24
quote:
Are these your "authoritative citations"?
Authorities are what I am seeking.
I would like to have any citations concerning tenor banjo history that you have.
Hypothesis: The tenor banjo after WWII was seen as a novelty instrument. The repertoire at the core has involved music from the past. The performances have cast the banjo as an instrument from yesteryear. The appeal is to sentimentality.
In the teens and twenties the tb had been an essential part of the
development of the music of the period...ragtime...jazz either as a
melody instrument or as an essential part of the rhythm section. This is not a novel idea. Linn comments on it in Half-Barbaric Twang pages 110-111. That book is 20 years old. So, I started this thread to test the hypothesis to see if there was something post Twang that was happening with the tb and today's music. That is, music developing today.
When you compare the fortunes of the guitar to the tenor banjo since WW II you can see the contrast. The guitar has proved to be a central part of the development of various genres of the popular music of the day. Is the tenor banjo's primary appeal today to feelings of nostalgia? Does anyone have an essay dealing with the tb's status in todays music?
Edited by - beezaboy on 01/12/2011 17:02:39
banjofanatico - Posted - 01/12/2011: 18:43:13
Jacques Brel is alive and well and living in Paris -- or maybe not.
DanielT - Posted - 01/12/2011: 20:03:38
quote:
Originally posted by beezaboy
Authorities are what I am seeking.
Well, that's different than what you suggested. In context, your statement that "Even the Irish phenomena complete with 1000 notes a minute is the product of Irish folk music" seemed like more of a conclusion. In this light, I think you need to work through your hypothesis still, because while it may have its merits in American banjo music, I really don't think it works for Irish banjo. For example, I don't think that sentimentality had anything to do with Barney McKenna's use of the tenor banjo as he rose to prominence. In fact, the stories I heard were (in essence) that it was too progressive, and rejected at first. While Linn's book may point vaguely to the direction you're interested in, a more relevant book for your work might be Gage Averill's
Four Parts, No Waiting: A Social History of American Barbershop Harmony. He works through these issues (especially nostalgia) in a way that a) might help you as you look for sources and b) might help you work through the ones you find.
Greenmeat - Posted - 01/12/2011: 21:34:32
Where and when did the Irish tenor banjo style start? Eddy
DanielT - Posted - 01/12/2011: 23:04:08
quote:
Originally posted by Greenmeat
Where and when did the Irish tenor banjo style start? Eddy
Well, to expand on Polle's post the short version is that the story starts in America. The first guy to
record Irish music on the banjo is supposed to have been James Wheeler, who recorded several sides with accordionist Ed Herborn in 1916/17 but I imagine there may have been others playing it, likely on banjo mandolin (and other proto-tenor type instruments). However, I don't think Wheeler played tenor; in fact, he didn't play tunes, he just brushed chords, really. The two
big early names on the
tenor are Mike Flanagan (The Flanagan Brothers) and Neil Nolan (Dan Sullivan's Shamrock Band), both of who were active in the 1920s/1930s. There were several other banjoists in that era, though, who were less famous, and at that time, no one I'm aware of was tuning GDAE as is the convention today, except probably the banjo mandolinists (of which there were several by that time; Michael Gaffney, referenced in Mick's article would have been one). Tenors were played in the late 1940s/1950s–you had guys like George Derrane (accordionist Joe Derrane's brother) and Jimmy Kelly on tenor in Boston, while a bunch of others were based in the Catskills. In that era Jackie Roche had a banjo player (who remains anonymous) on one of his albums who was pretty interesting, as well. I don't really know about any of the others around, and I don't know if there were any in Ireland – all the activity I know of up to this point was in America. In Ireland, I'm told it wasn't until the 1960s that Barney McKenna of the Dubliners picked up the banjo (after having played mandolin). For a long time he was generally considered the "first" Irish banjo player (for whatever reason); more important, though, is that he was the first to start tuning it GDAE–it was pretty innovative at the time and a significant development because this tuning brought a generation of musicians into the tradition and led many to innovate. Really, Flanagan and his ilk weren't well known until
after McKenna was already pretty much a superstar.
So yeah, this is a short non-authoritative, off-the-top-of-my-head answer to Greenmeat, but I imagine there are others who could add more.
Ten_or_Fifths - Posted - 01/13/2011: 00:15:49
Three separate points:
Don't forget mento music. That's a post-war innovation for the tenor banjo.
I had assumed that the tenor banjo's popularity and eventual eclipse by the guitar were tied to the development of electric recording and amplification more than purely musical reasons. [citation needed]
One thing that is fascinating me right now is the different timbre of the tenor banjo depending on the genre. It sounds more "Irish" played close to the bridge, but I think that's more obvious in hindsight.
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