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Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.banjohangout.org/archive/189772
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Kennyj - Posted - 10/24/2010: 21:56:06
I see a lot of people recommending The Murphy Method for beginners to learn banjo. It seems like this is probably the most popular recommendation for DVDs here. I've also seen a couple recommendations for Dr. Banjo/Peter Wernick videos as well. Both seem to have different videos for different levels that you can work your way through based on your current ability.
I ended up ordering "Get Rolling: Ultra-Easy No-Fail Intro to Bluegrass Banjo" by Wernick before I saw all the Murphy Method recommendations. I still haven't bought my banjo yet -- but I decided to order early because someone may be loaning me a banjo very soon.
Anyone have experience with both? What do you think? I liked Wernick's philosophy of teaching (based on the essays on his site), but it seems like the Murphy Method is much more popular here.
I guess it can't hurt to own both (other than the cost). . .
Can't wait to get my banjo. I may get the loaner within days -- but I probably won't be able to purchase for a month or two.
BobbyE - Posted - 10/24/2010: 22:37:40
Both will be good for beginning but they offer two entirely different approaches to teaching and learning. Wernick is gonig to present his material in tab while Murphy is entirely a 'learning by ear and memorizing' approach. The key will be which method best suits the way that you learn best. Different people prefer one or the other based on results. Those who speak highly of the Murphy method do so since they learn better by 'ear' than by tab. Once you begin your journey you will discover which method works best for you.
Bobby
Moore.music - Posted - 10/25/2010: 00:57:35
Hi There
I am by no means an expert banjo player but have gone through all manner of instruction material . I seem to learn best by ear but I have been in music a long time and play other instruments as a pro so I have an astute ear. But I do like to look at the TAB on something to find out "How did they do that" .I also found out that just trying to play along with my favourite songs helped lots and lots but not trying to play Earls stuff note for note. Just trying to play along. I found some licks just started to appear from nowhere. I think one DVD you may like to watch is the first one from Jens Krüger . He can get you started on such an easy pleasant way in no time at all and have you playing in minutes.Then you have to look for what you like.The Hangout and you tube are vast reference libraries where you can sample all sorts of methods.
Most important is getting started having fun and not getting your head in a whirl with this and that. Practice should not be a chore.
Have fun I think we all do here in the Hangout and i believe Banjo is, at least in my experience one of the most fun instruments out there.
Get pickin´
Nigel
mebacon - Posted - 10/25/2010: 03:50:47
I don't know that there is a huge difference between Pete Wernick's and Murphy Henry's method. I think they would both agree on the value of ear training. I would get a banjo before making any big investments in DVD's. Then I would spend the $30 for Volume 1 of the Murphy Method and see what you think compared to the way Pete teaches on his DVD. The first volume of the Murphy Method will deliberately take you 3 to 6 months, So it isn't a gigantic expense.
fixdent - Posted - 10/25/2010: 05:31:03
You can also do a seach on youtube. There are Murphy method examples of different songs on there.
Murphy Method is a foolproof way to learn a song, but in the end you gotta work that method into different ways of learning.
Once you get started, you will be addicted to buy differen CDs, trying to get the "magic" one. (and there is none, at least that I have found yet.)
--
Gordon
coelhoe - Posted - 10/25/2010: 06:27:36
I have great respect for Wernick's approaches to teaching banjo. His "Slow Jam" DVD's were the exact solution many teaching problems around the country, especially for players isolated from jams other pickers.
In the mid-80's I joined a friend in going to one of the first of Wernick's banjo camps, down in Niwot, Colorado, near Boulder, about 100 miles from here. My pal was at an intermediate level and tips on how to get to the next plateau, but I had been playing actively for 15 years at the time and I was interested in Wernick's teaching philosophy and methods. I came away with new teaching ideas but also with a reinforcement of my own methods using classroom techniques (I was a history teacher) in presenting the banjo.
I particularly like Wernick's "If it sounds good, it is good" motto, which helped a lot people who were stuck with not sounding exactly like Earl.
But a few years before I had had a similar discussion with Murphy Henry one afternoon at BG festival in south Georgia. The only real difference I can recall is at that time she was somewhat more focussed on teaching particular songs and arrangements rather than the instrument itself, at least in discussion. To be fair, I have only seen short snippets of her videos.
I'd start with Wernick, but once you are "rollin" then try Murphy's. You have no idea how much easier it is nowadays to get started, and started correctly, on banjo. Good luck!
Kennyj - Posted - 10/25/2010: 07:38:53
Thanks all,
I may start with Wernick's and then pick up Murphy's after I get started.
banjer5 - Posted - 10/25/2010: 08:00:12
It's kinda like apples and oranges, both are real good and Pete has a unique style which I really like. Not having used either (I'm pre DVD learning) I can't speak from experience but DVD learning is excellent and far superior to TAB alone. A really good teacher is best in my opinion but many have difficulty finding them.
Fred
Edited by - banjer5 on 10/25/2010 08:02:34
Kennyj - Posted - 10/25/2010: 08:04:20
I plan to take lessons from a teacher at some point. I just don't think I can afford everything at once.
Tam_Zeb - Posted - 10/25/2010: 08:37:38
Hi Kenny
Welcome to the Hangout
I have Murphy's and Pete's Video's and as has already been stated the two approaches are entirely different.
Pete's "Get Rolling" video focuses on the CGD Chords strumming your way through lot's of tunes and he doesn't get into teaching rolls till near the end of the video. Practicing those chord changes is an excellent way to develope your fretting hand skills and prepares you for the things you will learn later on.
Murphy's Beginning Banjo Vol 1 gets straight into teaching the Scruggs Style fundimentals. Slides Pull-Off's Hammer On's etc.
Of these two video's I much prefer the Murphy Method.. However as you build your knowledge and skills Pete's other videos such as his Branching Out Video series provide really excellent tutorials that will take you beyond the basic stuff.
Murphy doesn't use TAB in her teaching and that's really why I found her approach to teaching easier to understand and I learned the basics very quickly. I didn't have the burden of having to learn TAB at the same time I was learning the mechanics of playing the banjo. However as I have progressed beyond the beginner stage I find that I am using TAB more and more as a learning tool.
Every persons approach to learning is different. I don't have easy access to good teachers so I have had to rely on videos and books as my learning sources. I now use a much broader range of video tutorials by a host of other teachers but I found the lessons I learned from the Murphy Method and Geoff Hohwalds teachings gave me a great foundation on which to develope my skills.
Hotrodtruck - Posted - 10/25/2010: 09:46:18
Pete explains what he is going to show you, then he shows you, and then he again explains what you have just seen. He also explains how the things you learn work at other places on the fretboard, based on the moveable chord formations, so that you can expand the usefulness of them. Although he demonstrates how to do things (the monkey see. monkey do approach), he also provides tab so you can review what you have learned without jumping back and forth on the DVD. He uses the best of both methods. Pete also advocates learning by listening and experimenting as much as possible. Tab is really not hard to learn. It is a simple method of illustrating fingerings and fretboard locations. Learning tab provides you with a useful skill that even the pros use. Sometimes the supposedly "easy" way is not the best in the long run.
YMMV
Mike
John Allison - Posted - 10/26/2010: 05:46:48
Both systems are good, no excellent, learning tools. I learned from Pete Wernick's DVDs as I am more of a visual learner and the combination of verbal, visually watching the DVD and then using the tab for those parts I did not fully grasp worked for me. And, with that said, the learn by ear really seems to be catching on and is a well respected, tried and true, method of learning. Most of my building of my tool box full of songs is done, today, by ear using tabs only when I do not know the song. I have not used the Murphy method, so I cannot comment on it but have sat in on a few of her classes at Midwest Banjo Camp and like the way she presented her information. As far as Jam DVDs, I will definitely recommend those of Pete Wernick. It is all in how you seem to learn ...... and, only you can answer that.
Michael Smith - Posted - 10/26/2010: 11:20:45
I have used quite a bit of Murphy tapes and DVDs. I really like them for what they are. But you might want to keep in mind that some songs are not necessarily taught the same way as original recordings were made. I was just about to get the DVD that shows the Ballad of Jed Clampett until I found out that they teach a simplified version of it. I decided to stick with the version in Earl's book and get through that way, even though it is tougher for me to learn it that way.
Having said that, I am still a fan of their teaching method. It works for me, and you get helpful hints along the way regarding finger placement and things like that, which help transitions from one lick to the next.
dflowers - Posted - 10/26/2010: 12:23:59
Ok time for my two cents worth. I almost fell over when Pete Wernick said. "And that is exactly how Earl played Blueridge Mountain Home", on one of his DVD's Now, that is a good building block. I have not seen the Murphy Methold DVD's, but I have a profound respect for what Pete is attempting to do in his teachings. Plus, he makes it fun at the same time. Good luck on your journey.
marklori - Posted - 10/26/2010: 12:28:45
I don't think there is any "best" method. I have leaned heavily on Murphy's DVD's and her method works for me. It's a great way to learn songs. I am thinking of going with Tony Trishka's online school. In my opinion you need to learn from as many different sources as you can. You might pick up different things with each teacher. For instance I just discovered banjophobics videos here on the hangout and am finding them to be a treasure trove... but they will be AFTER either Wernick or Murphy. Whatever you do, make sure it's fun and it'll work out.
Pete Wernick - Posted - 01/12/2011: 09:03:10
I recently came across this thread and thought it might help if I jump in.
I'd like to clarify a number of things.
1. I do NOT recommend a lot of learning banjo instrumentals by rote when you're just starting. It's a lot of effort spent, it rarely yields results that can be used in a real jam, and mostly... **It does not get you very far down the road to any sort of ability to play with others.**
2. Even memorizing breaks to *songs* (which are generally easier than instrumentals), shown EITHER by tab or by "showing" on a video, is not a beneficial approach. Either way... you are being taught to be a closet player. Real players don't just memorize solos. They make them up, often on the fly.
3. Memorizing/reading/being exactly "shown" every note of a solo is sort of like "Memorizing paragraphs in Chinese" as a supposed way of learning Chinese. You don't benefit in the long run by memorizing whole paragraphs that you copied from someone else. Instead you need to:
4. First learn to play along with othersn (or at least others on a video), following simple chord changes, first strumming, then rolling (this is what my 1-hour Get Rolling video is all about). We were the first to put out full length jam-along videos with chords shown, simulating real jamming situations. They are bestsellers, since almost every player on every instrument needs this training to get on board with real-life jamming. A banjo player can roll while changing chords, and fit in well, as well as building their foundation of real musicianship.
5. THEN learn to put melody notes together with rolls to start making up your own solos. I show a lot of that in my main (oldest) and bestselling video Beginning Bluegrass Banjo. Where Get Rolling is a good start on the foundation of music making, and using a few rolls, It's the BBB video that really shows how the style works. Slides, hammer-ons, most typical licks and lead-ins... AND making up your own solos.
6. Until you're playing with others making "real music", and not just trying to recite something copied from another person, you are not really playing bluegrass banjo. You're just imitating someone who knows how to play. It does have a short term reward ("look, I can play a song")... But that is not learning to fish, you are being given fish, and the process is tedious and hard to grow from because you're not being taught the logic of how it's done, you're just imitating someone without knowing how it works. People who learn that way often have bad timing problems because they haven't learned real musicianship yet. Bad timing problems mean big trouble when you try to jam.
7. There are lots of ways to learn to play banjo, but I chose my approach and will advocate for it because I consider it the quickest, most direct way to learn to be a "real" banjo player who knows how to do more than copy an exact arrangement. Real players don't go to jams armed with 100 memorized solos. They think on their feet and are good at "faking". That's what ALL "real" players do. That's what I teach people to do, whether in person or on videos.
8. I think I'm the only banjo teacher who's read literally thousands of evaluation forms of my teaching. I've been using them for over 20 years, so I feel I know what works and what doesn't work, because I get a huge amount of feedback from my students, written anonymously. I have learned a lot from my students about how to teach most effectively. All told, I've been teaching banjo for 45 years and have sold about half a million of my instructional products. I know they work, and have launched a great many players, worldwide.
Last, I hope this has been informative and while it may appear dogmatic, I have a passion for explaining my approach, because I see many players who feel lost with only the "memorize this" approach to playing Scruggs style. Earl does not memorize all his solos, and few players do that.
For the investment of $30, anyone curious can buy anyone's video and surely learn something. It's cheaper than taking lessons (2 hours for $30). Worth gambling on, I would hope.
I'm in the middle of my banjo camps right now, but if anyone wants more info, they can check out my videos at drbanjo.com/beginning-banjo.php.
Happy picking!
Pete
Richard Dress - Posted - 01/12/2011: 09:42:12
Here is a big chunk of great advice and insightful observations on learning to play music on the banjo. I just read Pete Wernick's column in Banjo Newsletter and that had some of the same good ideas. There is a huge difference between learning to play memorized stuff on the banjo and learning to play the banjo, and Pete does a good job pointing this out.
I don't have any direct experience with either Wernick's or Murphey's approach, but I am sure they both will provide the right info in terms of necessary banjo technique. Pete Wernick has a clear understanding of what else it takes to actually play the instrument and weaving that understanding into his teaching method has to add a lot of value to his video lessons.
bindle stiff jim - Posted - 01/12/2011: 09:55:49
in my opinion, after playing/battling with this instrument for years now, i wish more than anything i'd have started as pete teaches. strumming through chords with songs. i would be miles ahead now had i not wasted 2-3 years starting straight off with rolls hammer-ons, slides and pulloffs.
you shouldn't try to run before you walk. if you can't change chords smoothly you can't play music on a banjo. it doesn't matter how fast you can TIM TIM TITM MIT or any other roll with any fancy embelishments.
Stick with Pete, use the others later
just my two cents.
phb - Posted - 01/12/2011: 10:14:10
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Dress
There is a huge difference between learning to play memorized stuff on the banjo and learning to play the banjo
Pete Wernick - Posted - 01/12/2011: 11:39:30
quote:
Murphy doesn't use TAB in her teaching and that's really why I found her approach to teaching easier to understand and I learned the basics very quickly. I didn't have the burden of having to learn TAB at the same time I was learning the mechanics of playing the banjo.
wildboar - Posted - 01/12/2011: 13:45:11
"Some of the comments in this thread seem to think that "Pete uses tab, Murphy doesn't".
I have DVDs from Pete and Murphy. The biggest difference is that Pete provides the TAB for a reference (IT ISN'T NECESSARY for learning anything... and you won't have to go to confession for looking at it). I prefer having the paper reference and I encourage Pete to continue supplying it (the booklets fit perfectly into the neck of my banjo case). The teaching on video is similar between the two, and I think you will be able to learn from either. This is what always had me scratching my head when people would proclaim how 'different' the Murphy Method is.
Edited by - wildboar on 01/12/2011 13:50:17
marklori - Posted - 01/12/2011: 14:10:39
I've got 3 of Murphy's videos and have learned a lot from them. Yes - it is learning by rote. That being said, I've learned a lot of licks and skills that are basic skills that I will need and are seemingly taught by all teachers by one method or another. Where Pete is right (at least as far as my experience covers) is that I have not learned any skills toward making my own music. I've assumed, so far, that this is from lack of experience and natural talent. I'll be checking out Pete's site just as soon as I recover from Christmas overspending. My belief is that the more sources you can learn something from the better. Thanks Pete for the posts - you have peaked my interest.
Pablo9364 - Posted - 01/12/2011: 14:59:30
Wildboar is right. I watched this thread early on and see some members sort of pigeon holing one method has using tab and the other teaches without tab and this could affect the decision on which method to choose.
Tab is provided for reference purposes. You really don't have to use it. The dvd's go way beyond use of tab. Having nine pete wernick dvd's which are used regularly I like the fact that Pete makes very good use of the running time on the dvd. He has applied a lot of thought on the content and talks about what is truly important in learning bluegrass banjo. For sure he isn't wasting valuable time telling me each and every note he is pickin on the dvd. tab is an aid and over reliance on tab should be avoided-any good teacher/student knows this.
I think anyone who is learning the banjo in a serious way should at some point get Pete Wernicks DVD's. They contain essential tips and advice from a true master of the instrument.
Ritchie Mintz - Posted - 01/12/2011: 15:01:42
As a 50+ year banjo player and teacher, I'd like to weigh in on this topic. I agree with Pete that learning banjo by rote will not get you there. I also support Pete and his methods 100%. Nobody has put the time and effort into teaching banjo like Pete has and he has the results to prove it. (BTW, Pete and I have been bluegrass buddies and we go way back. We know each other's music pretty well. There really is only one Dr. Banjo.)
That said, I'll speak for myself and say that TAB never worked for me. I offer an alternative. My banjo instruction book, Conversational Bluegrass Banjo, teaches exactly how I learned and play. While Pete has played and taught music for the last 30 years, I worked a different career with music as a beloved hobby. So I don't have quite the teaching experience that Pete has but I've still taught hundreds of people to play. I will let my book speak for itself. You can check it out at AustinPickinRanch.com. Here is an unsolicited review from one of my happy readers:
"Hi Ritchie,
Thank you, Thank you, Thank you. Your book is great. It is the first banjo book I have seen with a clear curriculum and obvious scope and sequence. I Love It! I took your advice and put everything I thought I knew about playing the 5-string away and started from page one. I enjoy your explanations and appreciate the deviation from TAB. Your notation makes a lot of sense and allows me to see the rolls in parts. I know that if I am having troubles in a lesson I need to slow down and if that doesn't help, go back and practice the new rolls until I can do them in my sleep. After all, they are really the same as the previous lesson ... only a little different. Clearly your teaching techniques are very insightful! Thank again."
My website has a sampler that gives a pretty clear idea of how I teach and what to expect. There are many methods and they meet many varied needs, depending on the individual learner. I hope my note here makes it easier, not harder to decide which method is for you.
Sincerely,
Ritchie Mintz
Austin, Texas
repicker - Posted - 01/12/2011: 15:15:57
I will have to attest to Pete's method. I have attended 3 of his "full immersion" banjo camps and have come away with much to work on but also a full set of basic skills to build on. Shortly after attending Pete's beginning camp I played with a group at a campground - that after only playing for about 6 months. I have played in church, with a weekly jamming group and played with a band in a couple of gigs since then - all feeling very comfortable and confident in the basic skills that were taught by Pete. I have been playing now for about 4 years and feel very comfortable at taking breaks on the fly for normal jamming tunes in normal keys. Pete's method works. I also have a couple of Murphy's DVD's and have used them exclusively to supplement the foundation that was built by Pete Wernick. Thanks, Pete.
Glendon Lackey - Posted - 01/12/2011: 20:03:20
I say get Murphy method DVD to learnt play, but get a wernick book as a reference book. I have a book by him that basically tells everything you would need to know about banjo playing but I don't recommend using it to learn by. I got the most out of it after I learned to play. But thats just the way I learned. you find the best way for you to learn.
Jody Hughes - Posted - 01/12/2011: 20:55:20
Wow, I think you are getting ahead of yourself, seeing as how you don't have a banjo yet. Start with a song that has three chords at the most, that you already know how the tunes goes, and learn it on the banjo
Thanks
Jody,
ihavenothingtosell.com
Edited by - Jody Hughes on 01/12/2011 20:59:01
Kennyj - Posted - 01/12/2011: 22:46:23
Actually my original post was made months ago. I've had a banjo for awhile. I liked Pete's DVD, but I'm mostly using Tony Triscka's site
Rich Weill - Posted - 01/13/2011: 06:35:32
IMHO, the key statement Pete Wernick makes is about the importance of learning "how the style works" and "knowing how it works." Until you understand the component parts of bluegrass banjo music and the role each element serves, it's hard to start thinking like a banjo player.
From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 01/13/2011: 07:29:32
Pete Wernick,
Thanks for your time and posts and coming down the the trenches. It is like a free lesson for guys like me.
Ken
Rich Weill - Posted - 01/13/2011: 11:13:22
Pete: If you're still following this thread, I'd like to ask you a question. Let me preface it by saying that I agree with you 100%. I was taught to play by Roger Sprung, whose method bears a lot of similarity to what you've said here: no tab, no written music of any kind, no rote learning, starting from chords and rolls over chords and then adding the melody -- all by ear, etc.
As I described in a thread many years ago (banjohangout.org/archive/94819), my experience with the Murphy Method also comports with your description. I found it to be a very effective way to learn a specific arrangement of a specific song, but without much wider benefit.
But, to be fair, many BHO'ers who have stuck with the Murphy Method much longer than I did have claimed here that they did not just learn rote arrangements of specific songs. Rather, they say that they learned licks that they were then able to use in appropriate places in new songs. In other words, they maintain that the Murphy Method taught them a banjo vocabulary (to use your language metaphor). The more Murphy Method pieces they learned, the bigger their vocabulary and the easier to select banjo "words" and "phrases" for new material.
That wasn't my experience but, for the sake of argument, let's assume this description of the Murphy Method is correct.
My question is: Can you assess "Pete Wernick vs Murphy Method" under that assumption -- where the Murphy Method is not simply learning entire songs by rote, but rather (in theory, at least) learning swappable, modular song chunks to reassemble as needed?
Personally, I have never had much success playing from a bag of licks. I use a few standard ones, but no more than that. I find it difficult to think of songs in those terms. I think in terms of rolls over chords which catch the melody and, where appropriate, embellishing the melody with slides, hammers, etc. Pre-fab licks, for me, are mostly reserved for where the melody pauses.
Devotees of the Murphy Method, however, claim to have success playing primarily from the licks Murphy teaches. Presumably, once their lick bag is big enough, they can manage to find suitable licks to express the melody.
Can you contrast what you teach to this "learning licks" view of the Murphy Method?
minstrelmike - Posted - 01/13/2011: 11:33:05
Where I see the difference isn't in the methods.
I've seen many rote players who cannot do anything but rote and I've seen others who have used that as a starting point for playing music.
The main difference I see in those two populations is that the 'players' got out and played with other people at jams. They memorized enough via Murphy or tab or teacher to feel competent enough to attend a jam and then their learning changed although they may not have realized it themselves. For the ones who didn't attend jams but 'saw the light,' I suspect they did the same thing without realizing it. They started experimenting on their own, developing their own break to a brand-new song or just feeling confident on the fingerboard to start noodling themselves and discovering songs such Oh Susannah on their own.
If you don't experiment on your own and listen for your own music, you don't learn to do that. If you noodle, then any information folks give you is viewed a starting point which is why -any- method works well for some people. But if you don't noodle, then certain lessons plan that don't force experimentation tend to reinforce the idea of rote 'learning.'
(There are many excellent classical and jazz musicians who came out of the standard rote-oriented approach used in school music lessons and that 'evidence' 'proves' those methods work to certain folks. Of course, I ask how many students in total went thru those programs and use the paltry number who keep playing music into later life as proof those methods don't work to teach music well for -most- people).
Missing the importance of crucial steps occurs all over the place. Many of the folks who learned by listening to records think that was the main step in how they learned yet they forgot that they already played guitar for 3 years before starting banjo. Certain things they learned about music while taking up guitar are also critical for -playing- banjo but since it happened with a different instrument, they think it didn't matter as much as it did.
Pete Wernick - Posted - 01/13/2011: 11:47:18
quote:
My question is: Can you assess "Pete Wernick vs Murphy Method" under that assumption -- where the Murphy Method is not simply learning entire songs by rote, but rather (in theory, at least) learning swappable, modular song chunks to reassemble as needed?
mebacon - Posted - 01/13/2011: 12:22:15
I really doubt that there is a gigantic difference between what Pete, Roger, or Murphy are teaching. They might have some different style points, but it all ultimately gets down to understanding rhythm, hearing chord changes, knowing how tunes are put together in the bluegrass genre and using the tools you have learned in progressively more creative ways. I am indebted to Murphy because the first time I tried to learn the banjo, strumming wasn't what I was expecting to hear from the banjo and so I put it down. Then I learned Banjo in the Hollow and it sounded like real banjo music and motivated me to keep working at it. Now I get the need to understand tunes in terms of the chord structure and I like to strum or vamp or play an alternating thumb roll through a tune I know and figure out how it is put together. Picking out melody on my own is still hard but not impossible. Murphy unequivocally teaches you to improvise. So does Pete. So does Roger. I just want to thank all those great teachers out there for taking the time and caring enough to let we of less talent and/or less time into their world. They could have kept it all to themselves.
Tam_Zeb - Posted - 01/13/2011: 12:33:48
quote:
Originally posted by Pete Wernickquote:
Murphy doesn't use TAB in her teaching and that's really why I found her approach to teaching easier to understand and I learned the basics very quickly. I didn't have the burden of having to learn TAB at the same time I was learning the mechanics of playing the banjo.
I am going to stay around on this topic and answer anyone and everyone who thinks methods other than mine work better.
Ouch. This may sound kind of extreme, but next month I turn 65, and I have been trying to provide the best teaching materials for bluegrass banjo since I wrote my book Bluegrass Banjo at age 27. With "time running out", I have decided to really promote my methods as the ones that cover all the bases, from "just starting" all the way to "quite advanced".
Just because some of my teaching materials are old (Bluegrass Banjo book came out in '74, Beginning Bluegrass Banjo video in 1985) doesn't mean they're outdated. I stand by those methods, though I add new wrinkles to my teaching each year.
It pains me when I see people prefer other methods to mine, giving reasons that I don't think hold up.
It most especially pains me when I teach my annual Basic Skills Banjo Camp (as I did last week) and literally most of the people who show up are completely "tab bound" (or rote-arrangement-learned-without-tab-from someone-bound) and have no idea how to do anything on the banjo without very exact instructions. They have not been taught musicianship, but just "how to imitate someone". That's not how real banjo players play. Most teachers teach this "rote" way, and I have the unpleasant task of informing many students that they've been taught in a way I consider highly inefficient (in fact, that's how I taught when I was starting to teach banjo, in the 1960s).
Before the end of the first day they are all jamming, and by the last (6th) day, most of them have created their own solos on a song of their choice. At that point, they "know how to fish" and are truly a "real banjo player", albeit an inexperienced one. But they are ready to get that experience by jamming and by working out their own arrangement by ear.
I'll answer the quoted comment above by saying as clearly as I can:
My method does not depend AT ALL on tab. I show every single note, and slowly, and I do slow repeats, and there are split screen closeups to make it easy to see. If you can memorize that and want to avoid tab, great, but most people wouldn't mind a written reference.
So yes, I have tab in ALL my products, because it is by far the easiest way to write down what it takes *a long time* to show, and have it for reference. My methods do not include just "sitting with a tab". I wouldn't think of calling that "teaching".
I strongly discourage tab learning or ANY BUT A SMALL AMOUNT of "rote" ("do it exactly as I show you") learning of whole songs -- UNTIL you already know how to play and you're just looking for useful details. We learn language, and most people learn music best by hearing, watching and following (not reading). That doesn't mean providing a written version is bad. It's easy to show an 8 note roll visually, and THEN say, look at the tab of the roll *if you need to*.
If a person needs tab in front of them to play anything, I strongly discourage that and have them put their tab away. Reading and memorizing do not use the same brain circuits that real players use when they play. Time to use the right circuits. It's tricky to teach, but the results come, and they last. Bluegrass is based on ear skills, not reading. That's a good thing for the several musicians I know who are blind!
For many people, a revelation comes when they *learn* the 8-note roll and learn to change chords while playing the roll. NOW they're actually playing music, and can do it with no tab. And it sounds good and works great in a jam.
In my Beginning Bluegrass Banjo DVD I do show, very slowly,, a few simple rote arrangements (with tab provided for reference) . This is to show how a roll can include melody notes, just by varying which string your thumb hits. Then-- the player needs to try to fly on their own. I show *how* to make an arrangement of a simple melody. Recently I've put out two two-hour videos (Make Up Your Own Solos) showing the process of figuring out your own solos. These are the first videos to show this process in detail on several songs. Tab is provided, yes, for reference, but the gist of the video is "teaching to fish", not "here's another fish". The tab for each song only matches *one* of the various workable ways I show on-screen how to include the melody.
Some of the comments in this thread seem to think that "Pete uses tab, Murphy doesn't". My teaching is slow, thorough and detailed (just like hers), AND tab is provided for reference. If you don't want to use tab, my method does not require it.
It's not on target to speak of my Branching Out on the Banjo videos in this thread. These are quite clearly designated as "ways to add lots of ideas into your playing *once you already know how to play Scruggs style, and want embellishments*" So these are "high school and college" materials, not to be compared with how I teach beginners.
Summarizing... the way to learn how to be a real banjo player is not by "memorizing other people's paragraphs". Classical music works that way. Bluegrass does not. You must learn to think for yourself, and develop ear skills like "finding a melody on the neck of your instrument." I teach that, and then what to do along with the melody to play it Scruggs style.
To read about how I teach beginners and why I do differently from most other teachers, go to this article: drbanjo.com/instructional-teac...dents.php, aimed at teachers, but hopefully illuminating to anyone struggling to try to learn how to really play banjo, and not just try to mimic someone who can play, thinking that somehow they are learning how the style works.
If anyone is put off by my emphatic and maybe even confrontational tone, I regret that, but after 45 years of teaching banjo, I have decided to be publicly impatient with methods of teaching that I think are not the most direct path to the goal, even if they do eventually work for some people. There are just too many people wanting to learn, working hard and not getting real results. (Many of them quit, even.) It doesn't have to be that way.
Pete
Jody Hughes - Posted - 01/13/2011: 13:37:51
quote:
Originally posted by Kennyj
Actually my original post was made months ago. I've had a banjo for awhile. I liked Pete's DVD, but I'm mostly using Tony Triscka's site
minstrelmike - Posted - 01/13/2011: 14:34:31
I forgot to add that the method is rarely at fault.
I suspect almost all of them offer suggestions for self-exploration and the folks who do that make progress on musicality and creativity whereas the ones who say "I've done all the things specifically requested' don't learn that.
I haven't gone thru the Murphy Method but I suspect the place where she tells you you can switch measure number five in this song with measure number five in that song, that she also adds, "try other switches and see how they sound." I've read her column in BNL and she encourages jamming and sharing and creating music in students.
The "roteness" of a method is often enforced by the perception of the student, not by the desires of the teacher.
Self-exploration, by definition, cannot be led by the teacher. All the teacher can do is encourage it.
RedDragon - Posted - 01/13/2011: 15:23:48
quote:
Originally posted by Banjocoltrane
As an instructor you have to be flexible to peoples needs, even in the beginning stages....perhaps even more so then.
quote:
Originally posted by minstrelmike
Self-exploration, by definition, cannot be led by the teacher. All the teacher can do is encourage it.
dflowers - Posted - 01/13/2011: 16:49:27
Taking the time to learn anything worthwhile in life, takes a lot of patience and repetition. Remember learning to write cursive in grammar school or trying to learn how to shoot a basketball?
I tried to play the banjo by just listening to music and learning a couple of cords. I was satisfied for awhile. But a person can go so far on his wits and then education is necessary. It would be great if we all had a banjo instructor available to us to personally teach us the step by step process of learning this magnificent instrument. That is not reality for most of us.
Pete Wernick has taken a lot of pains to teach us everything from the basics to the advanced stage of playing the banjo. He makes it fun and gives encouragement in his videos. If a person really and truly wants to learn to play, he is an excellent teacher. That is what Pete does. He also is very clear in his desire to teach Scruggs style bluegrass. He is himself a student of this style first and a teacher second. He has been my only teacher and I for one will recommend his style of teaching.
Lastly I just want to say that, look, there are many ways to learn how to do something. The Pete Wernick videos are one way and the way I have chosen and I am a very happy camper. I wish all of you the best in your journey. Sincerely, Don
Jody Hughes - Posted - 01/13/2011: 17:51:09
quote:
Originally posted by RedDragon
teaching someone to play a musical instrument is not like teaching someone to fly airplanes or put electrical wiring into buildings, and if they don't want to go where the instructor wants to take them, then they don't have to, and they certainly don't have to pay anyone to take them there.
When I started learning the banjo, for instance, I had one short term objective, which was to learn to play "Dueling Banjos", just like in the movie. I wanted to make those fast, twangy bluegrass banjo sounds I'd heard, and I wanted to start making them right from the beginning. Rightly or wrongly, if someone had sat me down and tried to make me strum chords to "She'll Be Coming 'Round The Mountain" I'd have gotten up and left, and taken my money with me. That may or may not be the so-called "best" approach, but as far as I was concerned, as least, any other stuff like that could come later, after where I'd gotten to where I wanted to be and was able to make the sounds I wanted to make.
Teaching someone the "best" method isn't going to help if they quit early on because they're not learning what they want to learn in the short term.
I think there are a lot of unrealistic expectations put on teachers, almost as if people think teachers can somehow magically show them how to create, which I think they just can't - folks just have to try playing around and creating things until they can do it. I usually think all a teacher can ever do is give someone a starting point - at some point, and some point early on, the student has to take responsibility for their own development and learning.
Edited by - Jody Hughes on 01/13/2011 17:56:27
Pete Wernick - Posted - 01/13/2011: 20:45:15
So glad that some experienced teachers and players are weighing in. I'd like to dispel some misconceptions about my teaching materials and methods:
1. My Get Rolling video is not what should be compared to others' methods. That video is my basic "for-idiots"-equivalent to make SURE that ANYONE can play music on the banjo, and it's an easy and quick intro to chord changing and rolling. Beginning Bluegrass Banjo is my full course, spending just a few minutes on "strumming Red River Valley" and such, and then getting into rolls, then rolls/chord changes, then actual arrangements each using just a single roll. Then favorite licks and on into how to create a solo.
Some folks are saying "just strumming" is a turnoff when someone wants to make those lovable Scruggsy sounds.
2. Quite true, people often want to do a Scruggs style tune right away, and it's a shame they usually can't do one decently unless it's quite easy. Dueling Banjos and FMB are too hard for most people, take a lot of time, and often bring discouragement. So OK, Bile Them Cabbage and Cripple Creek, and some such might keep the fire burning. I'm all for it, keep that excitement going.
3. I'm not about to squelch what makes anyone happy in their hobby. In fact, one of my teaching principles is... "Do whatever gets you the most fun the soonest." At some point the question becomes, what's more fun, closet playing or playing real bluegrass? I'm a much bigger fan of real bluegrass.
4. Yes, various different learning styles. Good to show everything slow and obvious with repeats... AND provide tab. The DVD player's review and pause buttons are helpful! Some people require a teacher, as they can't tell if they're not following directions.
5. Now is a good time to get fundamentals established, timing, playing simple bluegrass songs, just with chords, and knowing when to change chords. Without this, the person will be mainly a closet player, playing "pieces" alone. Ability to play with others is a pretty big thing to turn away from. Learning fundamentals also helps a person play their pieces better.
6. A person can go whichever way they want, but until they play fundamental music (simple chords, basic rhythm) they will probably have a hard time if they try to play with others -- most people's goal. Playing with a slow recording (like one of my mighty fine play along DVDs), they can learn to make changes and roll and get the Scruggs thrill. Must keep that motivational fire burning! Learning the fundamentals of playing bluegrass music needn't be a turnoff.
6. At this point the people content to be closet players may want to learn more "pieces" (from a tab or someone telling them every note to play), while the people who want to play bluegrass music can set their agenda for that. Of course it's each person's choice. I've observed over the years though, the great majority of closet players sooner or later give up the instrument. Only a small percentage of jammers stop playing.
7. Though of course a teacher can't force a person to learn fundamentals if they seem boring, the teacher can make it clear that certain things are worth working for, and that all the players they admire have done that. Then the student can make their choice as an informed person.
I appreciate hearing all the perspectives, especially from teachers who've taught a lot of beginners.
Thanks for listening!
Tam_Zeb - Posted - 01/14/2011: 01:15:31
Hi Pete
I also believe it's very important for beginners to have free and frank discussion and exchange views on learning experiences and for teachers to sit-up and take note of what students think of the educational materials that are in the current marketplace. We are constantly being marketed with a wide-ranging list of educational products it pay's to do a little independent research.
As you mentioned earlier some of your books and videos were written in the last century and a lot of water has run under the bridge in that time. Murphys Beginner lessons were created about the same time and whilst I personally have no problem with educational material that was publish in my teens and twenties younger students might see it as old hat.
Having said that I think it is important that teachers review and update their products from time to time what might have been revolutionary gold-dust thirty or forty years ago quickly looses some of it's glitter with the passage of time. BTW I love Cripple Creek but I hate Bile my Cabbage Down with a vengeance.
I don't have your Beginning Bluegrass Banjo I was purely commenting on 'Get Rolling' and to quote your own words "That video is my basic "for-idiots"-equivalent to make SURE that ANYONE can play music on the banjo, and it's an easy and quick intro to chord changing and rolling."
Now if you yourself see this as an idiot's guide entry level then who am I to argue. The tape was given to me as a gift and have used it a couple of times but I wouldn't recommend it. By contrast I bought Murphy's Beginning Banjo Vol 1 & 2 and I am more than happy to tell people how much it helped me to get started.
Do I think it made me a banjo player overnight. NO !!! it did not, it set me on an exciting and challenging educational path and I continue to add to that journey every day as I seek out new and more challenging learning experiences.
I am very happy in my closet picking away there is nothing sad about this. Like Jody I dislike label's like 'Idiot's Guide' and 'Closet Picker' these were bad promotional ideas from another era and do not convey a positive attitute for a student to aspire to.
Murphy's lessons provided me with a starting point, a stepping stone into the world of Bluegrass music. To coin one of your phrases Murphy didn't give me a fish she taught me how to fish, she openned my closet door and I will always sing her praises.
Pete Wernick - Posted - 01/14/2011: 01:55:28
quote:
I am very happy in my closet picking away there is nothing sad about this.
quote:
I dislike label's like 'Idiot's Guide' and 'Closet Picker' these were bad promotional ideas from another era and do not convey a positive attitute for a student to aspire to.
Pablo9364 - Posted - 01/14/2011: 03:07:41
I think the idea of an "idiot's guide" or "for the complete idiot" being so popular in the "instruction book field is that some customers are so unconfident of their ability to learn that they want assurance that "even an idiot" can learn it.'
IMHO they should have called these instruction books the "monkeys guide". so simple "even a monkey" can learn it!
Tam_Zeb - Posted - 01/14/2011: 03:57:12
quote:
Originally posted by Pete Wernickquote:
I am very happy in my closet picking away there is nothing sad about this.
T.Z., I'm very glad you are glad. You're what I call a successful musician, someone who enjoys playing music.
quote:
I dislike label's like 'Idiot's Guide' and 'Closet Picker' these were bad promotional ideas from another era and do not convey a positive attitute for a student to aspire to.
Sorry about the unappealing terminology. I think the idea of an "idiot's guide" or "for the complete idiot" being so popular in the "instruction book field is that some customers are so unconfident of their ability to learn that they want assurance that "even an idiot" can learn it.
Solo playing certainly has its joys, and I do it often. But since the banjo also has such a wonderful role as part of a group, most people aspire to doing that. My quibbles with teachers are mostly about how they don't address this need but instead mainly show people how to play "pieces". If pieces are what someone (you for instance) wants to learn, then everything's fine!
I can only guess why you don't like Get Rolling: There are parts of over 20 songs on the video, and someone has to sing them, so I do, bless me! Murphy's a much better singer.
It sounds as though your playing is well past the level of Beginning Bluegrass Banjo, but you might have a look sometime at that video, to see if you think the approach is one you'd recommend
phb - Posted - 01/14/2011: 04:45:14
quote:
Originally posted by Pablo9364
I think the idea of an "idiot's guide" or "for the complete idiot" being so popular in the "instruction book field is that some customers are so unconfident of their ability to learn that they want assurance that "even an idiot" can learn it.'
IMHO they should have called these instruction books the "monkeys guide". so simple "even a monkey" can learn it!
minstrelmike - Posted - 01/14/2011: 06:45:40
The reason publishers don't sell books like that is because publishers are in the business of _selling_ stuff.
In-depth books don't sell. Most folks wanting to play banjo (bluegrass) do want to play FMB right off the bat, same as most folks who take up electric guitar wonder why it will take them two whole months to get on stage and have girls in the audience flashing them as they play their amazing leads.
Most newbies only want to play lead and think that's the only thing that matters so that's the sort of material they buy which means that is sort of material publishers sell.
When I lived in Colorado Springs, there was one aspiring banjoist "Joe" who I tried to teach but his problem was he wanted to only learn Blackberry Blossom. Nothing else. He was going to start with Blackberry. And he could sort of plcuk out the official lead to it slowly and had been working on it for years.
But he wasn't going to 'waste' time learning any of the basic fundamentals. What was funny is that I'd run into many other banjoists at festivals and jams and discovered that 'Joe' had taken lessons from all of them and each was frustrated the same way I was, that if only Joe were willing to start with some song a lot easier or to work on just chord changes and basic rolls before trying the holy grail of picking but that wasn't Joe's desire.
Joe didn't learn to play banjo when i was there.
But I think he was happy thinking he was learning stuff.
I don't take students who won't do simple chord changes for me. BUt I don't do it for a living either.
I can appreciate that you don't want to be doing basic strumming on simple tunes but I do demand that you show me you can do at least one simple tune with basic chord changes before we move on to -anything- else. Those students abandon me and go to a 'real' teacher who will continue to feed them arrangements sometimes for years and the teacher knows the student isn't actually learning to -play- but the student is happy paying the money for these sorts of 'lessons' and frankly, those students are the bread and butter of the music teaching profession--all instruments (probably for all optional subjects taught to adults. There are a lot of folks taking painting classes but there isn't a surfeit of professional painters).
That is why the books, videos and dvd lessons available tend to be skewed in that direction also.
You can only sell what people will buy.
Rich Weill - Posted - 01/14/2011: 07:06:08
quote:I'm all for one-on-one instruction, but maybe it shouldn't start too early. I spent several years learning from books and tapes, listening to other players jam (and, in two instances, watching them teach). By the time I decided to begin formal one-on-one lessons, I had developed an understanding of my learning style -- and had selected a teacher whose method, I knew, would suit the way I learned best. I had also experienced the frustrations of trying to learn on my own. So I was ready to put myself in a teacher's hands (particularly this teacher's hands), and "go with the program." In fact, my teacher -- who I had come to know for several years before starting regular lessons -- commented how surprised he was that I didn't push back on any of his instructions. Why would I? Why would I select him as my teacher, knowing how he worked, and then reject what he was teaching me?
Originally posted by RedDragon
When I started learning the banjo, for instance, I had one short term objective, which was to learn to play "Dueling Banjos", just like in the movie. I wanted to make those fast, twangy bluegrass banjo sounds I'd heard, and I wanted to start making them right from the beginning. Rightly or wrongly, if someone had sat me down and tried to make me strum chords to "She'll Be Coming 'Round The Mountain" I'd have gotten up and left, and taken my money with me. That may or may not be the so-called "best" approach, but as far as I was concerned, as least, any other stuff like that could come later, after where I'd gotten to where I wanted to be and was able to make the sounds I wanted to make. Playing a musical instrument is a hobby, it's something you do for fun, and I just wasn't interested in hearing about what someone else would have preferred me to want to do, however "right" they might have been about it. Teaching someone the "best" method isn't going to help if they quit early on because they're not learning what they want to learn in the short term.
RedDragon - Posted - 01/14/2011: 08:17:43
quote:
Originally posted by minstrelmike
Most newbies only want to play lead and think that's the only thing that matters so that's the sort of material they buy which means that is sort of material publishers sell.
quote:
Originally posted by minstrelmike
But he wasn't going to 'waste' time learning any of the basic fundamentals. What was funny is that I'd run into many other banjoists at festivals and jams and discovered that 'Joe' had taken lessons from all of them and each was frustrated the same way I was, that if only Joe were willing to start with some song a lot easier or to work on just chord changes and basic rolls before trying the holy grail of picking but that wasn't Joe's desire.
Edited by - RedDragon on 01/14/2011 08:57:21
minstrelmike - Posted - 01/14/2011: 09:06:42
If you can picks rolls one after the other without losing rhythm but lose rhythm when you try changing the chords, then the picking ain't the problem and from all the folks I've helped fix that error, the chording has never been the problem either. They can make the correct chord with the lefthand.
They just have no musical synchronization between their left and right hands.
Going real slow covers this issue up for awhile but doesn't actually fix it.
Changing chords in time while removing the confusion of rolls does fix the problem.
Of course, if it isn't a problem, then we advance quickly to the next thing that is a problem.
-----------------
If you want to learn a bunch of new songs quickly, I can provide some insight into how to do that, too.
-----------------------
People who are already up-to-speed don't need that sort of fix.
People who have an innate musical ear don't need practice in how to hear stuff.
People who practice several hours a day and explore on their own can use any material presented to advance.
I have techniques for the rest of the folks.
I also have techniques for folks who wish to learn to improvise after years of memorization.
And they all start in the same place--the basics of music.
Not the basics of banjo or the basics of bluegrass, the basics of music on a chorded stringed instrument.
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