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Richard Dress - Posted - 01/14/2011: 09:31:19
Mike that is so right on that it sends a tingle down my leg. There are a bunch of pickers who will just grab a banjo, learn a forward roll and then go out and play it in a band. No muss, no fuss. These pickers are invisible to us regular hang-outers because they are out picking and trying to earn some money.
Then there is the mob of pickers like me who need everything explained over and over. I too have filled my shelves with banjo learning methods (no Wernick or Murphey) because, well ... I thought that was how to progress on the banjo. Enough people believe this fiction to support a small banjo teaching market. A market with a miniscule customer base of the most reluctant spenders on the planet.
The dirty little secret is that all the technique you need is explained in the first DVD you buy.
RedDragon - Posted - 01/14/2011: 09:31:42
quote:
Originally posted by Rich Weill
I'm all for one-on-one instruction, but maybe it shouldn't start too early.
I think there's a lot of merit in this idea. I do think it can be useful to have initial instruction - especially if you've never played an instrument before, particularly a stringed instrument. I think a lot of this talk about the catastrophic dangers of picking up "bad habits" is overcooked (how did the early pioneers, who didn't have teachers, avoid picking them up?) but I guess it is possible for people to come up with some really weird hand positions, or whatever, and I remember an entertaining story about a guitar player who taught himself piano for a number of years without realising that you were supposed to use your thumbs, too.
Like you, I never took initial banjo lessons, because I'd played the guitar for years and didn't need them, but I did take initial guitar lessons, as I really had no idea where to begin by myself. They lasted about six months, at which point my teacher basically sent me off by myself to experiment "for at least a year", since I already had the basic tools to take myself closer to where I wanted to go. I think this was a good approach, for me at least, and showed a lot of integrity from a guy who was essentially giving up an income stream. At least after those lessons I was at a point where I
could pick up new things from books, records, or wherever.
The advantage of doing this and
then considering (more) lessons, apart from "get[ting] any unproductive short term objectives out of [your] system" and figuring out your learning style, is that you'll already have a basic idea of what's what, and, more importantly, you'll be able to discern which particular areas
you need to work on, and seek out instruction in those areas. You'll have tried to do a bunch of things, figured out basically what's involved in doing them, and seen where you're having difficulties doing it. Instruction is a lot more meaningful and productive, I think, when you already have a clear idea what you want to achieve, when you're motivated to achieve it, and when you already have sufficient background to see how that instruction is fitting into your overall progress. And, as you say, you can evaluate any potential teachers, because you're now not completely clueless as to what's going on, and can make an informed decision based on your own needs instead of just placing faith in some random guy and whatever philosophy he might have.
I have yet to be convinced that this is any less "efficient" than a grand masterplan approach. It might seem like noodling around and wasting a year or two, but for all we know that "wasted" time spent experimenting might actually accelerate the effects of any subsequent lessons you have and put you ahead at the end of the day. An awful lot of people seem to have "if only I knew this when I was starting! I'd have saved so much time!" stories, but it doesn't seem to have done them any harm. I'm not aware that there's any reliable data to start making claims about how one approach is more "efficient" than any another. Getting feedback from one's own students is certainly a valuable thing to do, and any instructor worth his salt will do this in some form or another to improve on his own approach, but it's hardly a representative or unbiased data set to start drawing more general conclusions from. The student putting in enough effort to figure out where
they want to go seems likely to remain the safest and most reliable approach, to me.
DantheBanjoMan - Posted - 01/14/2011: 09:43:29
I know this wasn't one of the choices, but I like the Janet Davis books and videos. She gives a good basic background and I found the info useful both for playing solos and playing background with my band. I haven't tried Pete's videos yet, but the Murphy Method required too much memory work for me and I find it useful to have tab.
Pickervergnugen - Posted - 01/14/2011: 11:33:33
Well, I have been watching this thread since it started and felt it was time to say something from the "newbie point of view" I have been playing for just under 5 months and have felt the method I have chosen, works best for me. I do not have a musical background other than playing a little bit of Bass, and I little bit of guitar, however I have always been exposed to music from a young age, so I believe that is where you ear begins to be trained. At age 46 I knew that taking on the banjo would be an large task, since unlike most instruments you are indeed coordinating both hands and telling your fingers to follow commands with little piecesof metal attached to them it just ain't natural. I will say that I also researched for hours and hours the different types of methods available as well as talking to other banjo players and instructors. My conclusion was that , although I can read tab fairly well, it did not offer the immediate auditory and visual queues that I need to progress. I chose the Muprhy Method, and believe me, not without a debate in my head, due to the fact that as stated previosly in this post there are a ton of products avaialble that claim to do all sorts of miraculous things. That being said I also went into this learning with the commitment that I was already fighting the age curve and it would be a life long pursuit including hours and hours of practice, of which I do for at least 2-3 hours a day. After learning this way I have found I have more confidence to go out and attempt to jam, I have seen other very accomplished musicians who have used the "Murphy Method" and recommend it. I am sure they have also incorporated other teaching methods into their arsenal. So to me this is a constant learning experience that over time may have me use a variety of teaching resources as well. What I can say is that this debate over "monkey see monkey do methods" as opposed to more traditional learning methods is pointless in my eyes albeit my limited experience. As long as you are learning the instrument you choose, by the learning method you enjoy and progress at a level you are comfortable with then that is all that matters. There must be something to this " ear method, regardless of who teaches it, since I have noticed just in these 5 months there are more and more traditional teachers starting to explore this teaching method. As far as Murphy's method, I would say this. The method has allowed me to learn these licks and songs note by note, chord by chord including listening for the chord changes, learning the chords, vamping techniques which allows me, although not very good yet to enjoy the company of other musicians, and most importantly allows me to take the stress of the day and go out on the porch with a frosty beverage and annoy the neighborhood dogs with my playing. Will I ever play in a band, who knows, who cares but if I do it wont probably be until I am in my 60's and at that point the bands name would be " To Old To Care" . But seriously I have found that any time I needed something from Murphy Method Folks whether it be , Murphy, Red or Casey that all I have to do is pick up the phone or send an email and I am answered usually within 24 hours with a live person or e mail. That is customer service. Since I spent the money once, not each week or month as in traditional teachings, and they still treat me as if I was one of their "in person students". They are not a buy and forget type of Company. I am sure that all methods including those mentioned here and all the teachers who post here have good merits to thier teaching methods and I am sure they are all effective. Bottom line is what works for the student, regardless of whether it is traditonal teaching, by ear methods, tab methods, theory or a combination of all the above, is what matters. So to me the debate is good for conversation, but at the end of the day I will be willing to bet the Pete Wernick method is fantastic, The Ross Nickerson method is fantastic, the Tony Trischka Academy is fantastic, as well as all of you that are teachers here, however are these methods perfect for everyone, no!
Based on my level of commitment I want to have a firm foundation in bluegrass then branch out into other froms such as single string, Classical, Rock, melody, and for me the works of Tim Weed. But until I feel that I can branch out into those learning methods I am VERY Happy with the Murphy Method and the depth of products that they offer, including live teaching, but being in Tucson that is just not an option so the videos are my way to go. They offer all of the items you spoke of including, chording, music theory, vamping and most importantly how to play with others. I do not know if the other mehtods mentioned here work as well, but they probably do for the right person.
All I can say is that in my limited time learning the banjo, I can now listen to a song on Bluegrass Junction, and pick out the licks and begin to improvise and learn these songs. That tells me I either I have a audiographic memory, devine intervention, or I have picked the correct learning method for me and my ear is beginning to "tune in". So in case you have not noticed already I am a big Fan of the Murphy Method at this point in my learning curve. Will I move on to other methods, or more tradional learning at some point, sure, as I believe you can learn valuable information from all methods and isn't the banjo a lifelong learning experience?
I want to thank everyone in BHO for the wealth of knowledge, advice and debate this sight offers it makes learning the banjo and continuing this journey an absolute pleasure
Jim T - Posted - 01/14/2011: 12:14:46
I always hate to see these discussions labeled as "xxxx vs yyyy". Unfortunately, in our competitive society this usually leads to folks thinking one method (in this case) has to come out as a winner. I realize that numerous posts have stated that all methods have value, but the conatation is still there.
In my banjo learning I've used material from both methods under discussion here, as well as materials from Goeff Howald, John Lawless, Bill Evans, and Tony Trischka. Also lessons from a private instructor and, of course, all the valueable material here on the Hangout and on You Tube. I've gotten a lot of useful information out of all of them.
Regards, Jim
Banjophobic - Posted - 01/14/2011: 12:37:03
The most important thing about any method, is to train players to be 'musicians' first, and 'banjo players' second. Understanding how music works and the mechanics of the banjo, in relationship to each other, is fundamental to really knowing how to be a player. Any method that shows you the how, and the why, is the one to follow, in my opinion.
StanleyK - Posted - 01/14/2011: 12:47:23
Well now, I've been following this thread all the way through because I'm going to take the plunge myself in 2011. I thought I might just chime in.
I haven't even acquired a banjo jet, but I started researching different banjo brands and teaching methods weeks ago. I've visited lots of websites and read lots of reviews and teaching methods and been trying to figure out what's best for me. I read all of Pete Wernick's threads as well as the accompanying comments and I think perhaps his methods are going to be the best for me. If not, I may supplement with the Murphy Method or something else. Just like lots of people have said in this thread, it's up to the individual and how that individual learns to determine the best method for him or her. Some may benefit from a combination of methods to give them a good base to build on. It seems to me that Pete's methods would be best for me and I think I would learn to play faster and be able to play with others sooner without embarassing myself (too much). I would love to be able to go out and socialize and play with other "banjo people" and that really is what attracts me to his methods. But, like I said, we shall see.
So, this spring I'm going to be dropping lots of hints around the house as well as washing a few more dishes, folding a few extra dryer loads and additional husbandly duties to endear myself to the boss a little more. Perhaps it won't take long before she gets the hint that I NEED a banjo like I've always wanted and of course all of the accompanying accessories and learning materials. Then, I'll start to learn the basics about bluegrass playing this summer and fall and maybe I will score a trip to Colorado Banjo Camp next January to meet Pete. It's a perfect plan: what could go wrong? 
Prof - Posted - 01/14/2011: 12:58:06
Keep the part about the accompanying accessories and materials to yourself....for now. "Honey, it's a once in a lifetime investment in my happiness."
Laurence Diehl - Posted - 01/14/2011: 12:58:13
quote:
Originally posted by Banjophobic
The most important thing about any method, is to train players to be 'musicians' first, and 'banjo players' second. Understanding how music works and the mechanics of the banjo, in relationship to each other, is fundamental to really knowing how to be a player. Any method that shows you the how, and the why, is the one to follow, in my opinion.
I couldn't agree more! We are musicians who play the banjo.
Laurence
StanleyK - Posted - 01/14/2011: 14:31:01
quote:
Originally posted by Prof
Keep the part about the accompanying accessories and materials to yourself....for now. "Honey, it's a once in a lifetime investment in my happiness."
Oh, so it's like it was when I bought my recurve bow.....Good point.
Rob Bourassa - Posted - 01/14/2011: 21:34:03
I would try everything.
I had two books back in the 70s. Scruggs and Wernick. I love the way both of those guys play.
I haven't heard Murphy play much, but I like the idea of getting rid of the tab.
I had a teacher, and that was a very important step for me.
Sarge1201 - Posted - 01/15/2011: 22:57:11
quote:
Originally posted by Rob Bourassa
I would try everything.
I had two books back in the 70s. Scruggs and Wernick. I love the way both of those guys play.
I haven't heard Murphy play much, but I like the idea of getting rid of the tab.
I had a teacher, and that was a very important step for me.
I would add that the "Rob Bourassa" method is pretty darn good too!
banjo-oz - Posted - 01/16/2011: 08:31:24
I would like to point out to all those teachers who have written a how to play banjo books and all those who have put out instruction DVD"S, I HAVE DONE MY BIT TO KEEP YOU IN FOOD!! I have over the years gained a small mountain of books and a reasonable number of DVD"S but not being a born or gifted musician I struggled for years until I discovered "The Murphy Method" DVD"S, I feel I then surged if not quite leaped forward in my playing. Like many I found that when learning from tab a couple of days later I could not always remember what I had learnt. The Murphy Method cured that.
It has been noted that some of the songs Murphy teaches are simplified versions so what I do is when I have got a good handle on the song I go to the original version be it on tab or a DVD and learn the correct parts where they differ, it seems to work for me.
I have also found that by using the Murphy Method my ear for tuning the banjo and picking out the notes of any tune has improved.
If I list the main banjo teaching aids that have been best for me in the order found it would be:-
(1) Pete Werniks dvd/tape "beginners bluegrass banjo"
(2) Janet Davis book "you can teach yourself banjo"
(3) The Murphy method DVD"S
And at a later date
(4) Earl Scruggs Book
(5) Steve Sparkmans "Stanley Style Banjo"
(6) Jim Mills "A Winning Banjo Style"
I thank them all,
Tam_Zeb - Posted - 01/16/2011: 15:12:22
quote:
Originally posted by banjo-oz
I would like to point out to all those teachers who have written a how to play banjo books and all those who have put out instruction DVD"S, I HAVE DONE MY BIT TO KEEP YOU IN FOOD!! I have over the years gained a small mountain of books and a reasonable number of DVD"S but not being a born or gifted musician I struggled for years until I discovered "The Murphy Method" DVD"S, I feel I then surged if not quite leaped forward in my playing. Like many I found that when learning from tab a couple of days later I could not always remember what I had learnt. The Murphy Method cured that.
It has been noted that some of the songs Murphy teaches are simplified versions so what I do is when I have got a good handle on the song I go to the original version be it on tab or a DVD and learn the correct parts where they differ, it seems to work for me.
I have also found that by using the Murphy Method my ear for tuning the banjo and picking out the notes of any tune has improved.
If I list the main banjo teaching aids that have been best for me in the order found it would be:-
(1) Pete Werniks dvd/tape "beginners bluegrass banjo"
(2) Janet Davis book "you can teach yourself banjo"
(3) The Murphy method DVD"S
And at a later date
(4) Earl Scruggs Book
(5) Steve Sparkmans "Stanley Style Banjo"
(6) Jim Mills "A Winning Banjo Style"
I thank them all,
Hi Les
It seems from your post you have been playing the banjo for quite a while and have tried various methods to get a kick start.
The Orginal Posters enquiry was asking about two specific approaches to help beginners get started. ie Pete Wernick - Murphy Method.
The thread seemed to wanter off-topic a little but I see you have Pete Wernick's Beginners Bluegrass Banjo. Since no one else has commented on the DVD I wonder if you would care to. It might help the OP to know if Pete's tutorial was helpful to you. Did Pete explain things in detail, did you learn a lot from the DVD or did it fail to meet your expectations?
Did you buy the Murphy Method before or after you bought Pete's Beginners Bluegrass Banjo DVD?
How do they compare was the OP's Question --------
As you say beginners spend a lot of money buying various instructional books, cd's and video's and it would be good to get some
independent feedback from the people who buy and use these products. We hear a lot about the Murphy Method and Janet Davis and a few others on the Hangout but not a lot of comment on Pete's material. Now it's just possible that Pete's students have truely mastered the banjo after using his Beginners Bluegrass Banjo DVD and are out pickin at a jam session every night whilst all the closet pickers are sitting by their computer's honed into the Hangout trying to figure out why it's taking so long to learn the fundimentals.
In short if the key to learning how to improvise is to be found in Pete's Beginners Bluegrass Banjo DVD then it's important that all beginners should be told.
StanleyK - Posted - 01/16/2011: 15:28:50
Excellent points Tam Zeb; I'd like to hear some other recent beginners chime in also. I'm sure each method has its good and bad points and I'm sure since different people learn different ways that there will be a variety of opinions.
Paul Michael - Posted - 01/16/2011: 16:37:37
Pete, I am posting my question here on BH rather than by email in case others are at a similar place to me & might benefit from your answer. I've been playing for a little over a year & have jammed maybe a dozen times (but struggled at times to hang on). I'd like to jam more but opportunities don't come as often as I'd like. Here's where I'm at: I've learned where most of the major full chords are located up & down the neck & can change from the F shape to the D shape pretty smoothly. When I change to a barre chord I'm a little slow getting back to one of the other shapes. I'm beginning to learn how to make minor chords & 7th chords. I feel like I have the basic 8 note roll down fairly well & can change chords while rolling OK (I can also vamp OK). I've also discovered I can nearly nail the melody to a tune I know well but I don't do very well combining the melody with a roll. I haven't learned to "find" the melody within a chord nor how to fret other nearby melody notes while holding a chord. I also think I need to learn some licks to play between phrases of music, when other musicians are pausing. Your description of learning musicianship or how to play what's in your head sounds like the obvious goal. I've read about your DVD's--"Beginning Bluegrass Banjo" and "Make Up your own banjo solo's," and others. So now that you have an idea of where I'm at in experience, which of your DVD's do you think would be most beneficial to help me improve? Thanks for your help.
quote:
Originally posted by Pete Wernick
quote:
Murphy doesn't use TAB in her teaching and that's really why I found her approach to teaching easier to understand and I learned the basics very quickly. I didn't have the burden of having to learn TAB at the same time I was learning the mechanics of playing the banjo.
I am going to stay around on this topic and answer anyone and everyone who thinks methods other than mine work better.
Ouch. This may sound kind of extreme, but next month I turn 65, and I have been trying to provide the best teaching materials for bluegrass banjo since I wrote my book Bluegrass Banjo at age 27. With "time running out", I have decided to really promote my methods as the ones that cover all the bases, from "just starting" all the way to "quite advanced".
Just because some of my teaching materials are old (Bluegrass Banjo book came out in '74, Beginning Bluegrass Banjo video in 1985) doesn't mean they're outdated. I stand by those methods, though I add new wrinkles to my teaching each year.
It pains me when I see people prefer other methods to mine, giving reasons that I don't think hold up.
It most especially pains me when I teach my annual Basic Skills Banjo Camp (as I did last week) and literally most of the people who show up are completely "tab bound" (or rote-arrangement-learned-without-tab-from someone-bound) and have no idea how to do anything on the banjo without very exact instructions. They have not been taught musicianship, but just "how to imitate someone". That's not how real banjo players play. Most teachers teach this "rote" way, and I have the unpleasant task of informing many students that they've been taught in a way I consider highly inefficient (in fact, that's how I taught when I was starting to teach banjo, in the 1960s).
Before the end of the first day they are all jamming, and by the last (6th) day, most of them have created their own solos on a song of their choice. At that point, they "know how to fish" and are truly a "real banjo player", albeit an inexperienced one. But they are ready to get that experience by jamming and by working out their own arrangement by ear.
I'll answer the quoted comment above by saying as clearly as I can:
My method does not depend AT ALL on tab. I show every single note, and slowly, and I do slow repeats, and there are split screen closeups to make it easy to see. If you can memorize that and want to avoid tab, great, but most people wouldn't mind a written reference.
So yes, I have tab in ALL my products, because it is by far the easiest way to write down what it takes *a long time* to show, and have it for reference. My methods do not include just "sitting with a tab". I wouldn't think of calling that "teaching".
I strongly discourage tab learning or ANY BUT A SMALL AMOUNT of "rote" ("do it exactly as I show you") learning of whole songs -- UNTIL you already know how to play and you're just looking for useful details. We learn language, and most people learn music best by hearing, watching and following (not reading). That doesn't mean providing a written version is bad. It's easy to show an 8 note roll visually, and THEN say, look at the tab of the roll *if you need to*.
If a person needs tab in front of them to play anything, I strongly discourage that and have them put their tab away. Reading and memorizing do not use the same brain circuits that real players use when they play. Time to use the right circuits. It's tricky to teach, but the results come, and they last. Bluegrass is based on ear skills, not reading. That's a good thing for the several musicians I know who are blind!
For many people, a revelation comes when they *learn* the 8-note roll and learn to change chords while playing the roll. NOW they're actually playing music, and can do it with no tab. And it sounds good and works great in a jam.
In my Beginning Bluegrass Banjo DVD I do show, very slowly,, a few simple rote arrangements (with tab provided for reference) . This is to show how a roll can include melody notes, just by varying which string your thumb hits. Then-- the player needs to try to fly on their own. I show *how* to make an arrangement of a simple melody. Recently I've put out two two-hour videos (Make Up Your Own Solos) showing the process of figuring out your own solos. These are the first videos to show this process in detail on several songs. Tab is provided, yes, for reference, but the gist of the video is "teaching to fish", not "here's another fish". The tab for each song only matches *one* of the various workable ways I show on-screen how to include the melody.
Some of the comments in this thread seem to think that "Pete uses tab, Murphy doesn't". My teaching is slow, thorough and detailed (just like hers), AND tab is provided for reference. If you don't want to use tab, my method does not require it.
It's not on target to speak of my Branching Out on the Banjo videos in this thread. These are quite clearly designated as "ways to add lots of ideas into your playing *once you already know how to play Scruggs style, and want embellishments*" So these are "high school and college" materials, not to be compared with how I teach beginners.
Summarizing... the way to learn how to be a real banjo player is not by "memorizing other people's paragraphs". Classical music works that way. Bluegrass does not. You must learn to think for yourself, and develop ear skills like "finding a melody on the neck of your instrument." I teach that, and then what to do along with the melody to play it Scruggs style.
To read about how I teach beginners and why I do differently from most other teachers, go to this article: drbanjo.com/instructional-teac...dents.php, aimed at teachers, but hopefully illuminating to anyone struggling to try to learn how to really play banjo, and not just try to mimic someone who can play, thinking that somehow they are learning how the style works.
If anyone is put off by my emphatic and maybe even confrontational tone, I regret that, but after 45 years of teaching banjo, I have decided to be publicly impatient with methods of teaching that I think are not the most direct path to the goal, even if they do eventually work for some people. There are just too many people wanting to learn, working hard and not getting real results. (Many of them quit, even.) It doesn't have to be that way.
Pete
Pete Wernick - Posted - 01/16/2011: 19:18:18
quote:
I feel like I have the basic 8 note roll down fairly well & can change chords while rolling OK (I can also vamp OK)
Paul,
You're at a very good level of development. The above skills are just what you need to jam, and give you the foundation for the next step.
But just checking... you said "the basic 8 note roll". How many different rolls do you know? If you don't have four of the main ones (as taught in my beginner's video, and others), you should learn them... forward/backward, "FM Breakdown" roll(s), a forward roll, and TITM. There are more, but those are the main necessary/sufficient tools for the job.
quote:
. I've also discovered I can nearly nail the melody to a tune I know well but I don't do very well combining the melody with a roll.
So that is your next step. It's a difficult one, as the timing can become confused. That's the new banjo player's most common problem (in particular, those who play strictly by rote).
quote:
I haven't learned to "find" the melody within a chord nor how to fret other nearby melody notes while holding a chord. I also think I need to learn some licks to play between phrases of music, when other musicians are pausing.
All you need to do there is fill the space with a straight roll. Yes, though, there are a few very common phrases people substitute for just rolling on a chord.
quote:
Your description of learning musicianship or how to play what's in your head sounds like the obvious goal.
You have that right! But I'd say it's not the only goal. There's a lot of drilling (doing different rolls w. chord changes), so rolls go into muscle memory.
quote:
I've read about your DVD's--"Beginning Bluegrass Banjo" and "Make Up your own banjo solo's," and others. So now that you have an idea of where I'm at in experience, which of your DVD's do you think would be most beneficial to help me improve? Thanks for your help.
The next skills for you to tackle are shown in my DVD
Make Up Your Own Solos. The 1st DVD is all about simple, straight melody-based solos in G and it shows lots of ways of putting melody notes into the basic rolls. The key concept is:
While rolling in time, and making all the chord changes, try to get a finger to the string that has the melody note on it. So-- if you can roll in time and you know where the melody is, you're not too far off.
2nd DVD is about keys other than G, (mainly D), and up-the-neck in G.
The Beginning Bluegrass Banjo DVD covers the same skills but devotes about 30 minutes to it, compared to the 2 hours on each of the 2 newer ones devoted entirely to creating solos.
As any teacher well knows, a "real" banjo player has to do a lot of trial and error experimentation at some point, to have the flexibility to play breaks on songs in unrehearsed situations. I prefer teaching some of that flexibility almost from the start, once a rhythm/chord foundation is in place.
Pete
picKen - Posted - 01/16/2011: 20:23:00
I'm still not sure which method is the best for learning to play but I do know that ever since I found BHO, My head is soaking up more useful instruction than my fingers can spit out. I started with tab and still use it but thanks to you all at BHO I now try new things like figuring out FMB by ear, vamping, memorizing the chromatic scale,........ I figure I'll lay down cash on a method when you all stop posting. Thank you ALL!!!!
Jim T - Posted - 01/16/2011: 21:03:00
quote:
Originally posted by picKen
I'm still not sure which method is the best for learning to play but I do know that ever since I found BHO, My head is soaking up more useful instruction than my fingers can spit out. I started with tab and still use it but thanks to you all at BHO I now try new things like figuring out FMB by ear, vamping, memorizing the chromatic scale,........ I figure I'll lay down cash on a method when you all stop posting. Thank you ALL!!!!
Heck Ken, don't worry about what we think, just get one of them and have at it! All of the instructional methods have a lot to offer and chances are you'll end up working from more than one, like most of the rest of us.
Jim
dlc - Posted - 01/16/2011: 21:04:41
Hey Pete!
He's right. You weren't a real bike rider until you got rid of the training wheels, and you won't be a real musician until you wean yourself off tabs and other rote crutches.
Very interesting thread.
Tam_Zeb - Posted - 01/17/2011: 01:59:58
I think ALL methods have an element of rote in them and it's unfair to suggest that the Murphy Method is simply memorizing tunes.
Those that would have you believe The Murphy Method is just about learning a couple of tunes clearly does not understand the stratagy of Murphy's teaching approach. It's all about learning the BASIC structure of Scruggs Style how to play rolls, hammer-ons, slides, pull-offs, pinches, chokes, harmonics, vamping, back-up, good timing, tone and taste and a whole lot of other stuff besides.
The way Murphy teaches these elements is with the aid of a tune but the goal isn't learning the tune as such it's learning how to construct music in the Scruggs Style using the kind of basic elements that Earl might use when constructing a tune.
What the students of the Murphy Method memorise is the fundimentals of the style and if they use the method correctly it opens a door to go on to learn more challenging material from other sources. They shouldn't feel the need to be 'locked in' to one solution.
As I have said previously the Murphy Method is only a stepping stone a place to start learning to play the banjo. Just like taking driving lessons, once you pass your driving test you can drive without 'L' plates but your no expert it's just the beginning of a lifetime of exploration till you aquire the confidence.
Like any method if a beginner doesn't develope beyond the fundimentals and relys on "The Method" whether it be Pete Wernick's, Murphy Henry's, Janet Davis' a one-to-one with a teacher or any other approach then they are missing the whole point.
The goal of any banjo student is to aquire the skills that will enable them to improvise, play real bluegrass music on the fly, with or without others this just doesn't happen overnight. "The Method" is only a means in order to lay down a foundation stone.
Improvisation to my mind comes from years of experience and in order to gain experience you need exposure to many methods whether instructional, in a jam situation, at a master class, noodling on your own, experimenting or listening to other great banjo players.
Before you can begin to improvise you need to aquire foundaton skills first an foremost.
My personal view is you should soak up as much information from as many sources that are available to you. No one method provides all the answers no one method provides a complete solution.
I am starting to wander off topic again so I will pause for now except to say. We have talked alot about the Murphy Method here and I feel at times that I am championing her cause but thats not really why I am in this thread. I am truely interested to hear some independent views about Pete Wernick's Beginners Bluegrass Banjo DVD. This is after all what the original poster wanted to learn more about.
So please let's hear from someone who has actually used Pete's Beginners Bluegrass Banjo DVD.
Edited by - Tam_Zeb on 01/17/2011 02:05:26
JoeDownes - Posted - 01/17/2011: 02:42:31
quote:
Originally posted by Tam_Zeb
Before you can begin to improvise you need to aquire foundaton skills first an foremost.
I think those 'foundational skills' should be kept to a minimum. If you know a few rolls and a few arrangements you can start improvising slowly. I started with stuff like Amazing Grace and Sitting on top of the world, slow songs with pentatonic melodies, and I started to play them very slowly, but without arrangement, making stuff up as I go along. After I done this for a year or so I got Pete's Intermediate Jamming tape, which helped me a lot to to strengthens those skills, and to develop backup skills.
To me, those jam tapes are Pete's greatest achievement on the Bluegrass DVD market. It was a new approach that enables you to practice your jamming skills, it really forces you to use your ear and develop improvisational skills.
I would recommend to any beginner to get the slow jam DVD as soon as possible to get used to making stuff up as you go along. Of course it's even better to attend a real life slow jam, if that is possible at all.
Tam_Zeb - Posted - 01/17/2011: 05:52:12
quote:
Originally posted by JoeDownes
quote:
Originally posted by Tam_Zeb
Before you can begin to improvise you need to aquire foundaton skills first an foremost.
I think those 'foundational skills' should be kept to a minimum. If you know a few rolls and a few arrangements you can start improvising slowly. I started with stuff like Amazing Grace and Sitting on top of the world, slow songs with pentatonic melodies, and I started to play them very slowly, but without arrangement, making stuff up as I go along. After I done this for a year or so I got Pete's Intermediate Jamming tape, which helped me a lot to to strengthens those skills, and to develop backup skills.
To me, those jam tapes are Pete's greatest achievement on the Bluegrass DVD market. It was a new approach that enables you to practice your jamming skills, it really forces you to use your ear and develop improvisational skills.
I would recommend to any beginner to get the slow jam DVD as soon as possible to get used to making stuff up as you go along. Of course it's even better to attend a real life slow jam, if that is possible at all.
Hi Joe..
I disagree - that 'foundational skills' should be kept to a minimum
Making stuff up as you put it is not learning Scruggs Style - It's only making stuff up.
The Slow Jam DVDS are not really part of this discussion these are fine but they don't teach Scruggs Foundational Skills. The discussion is about Pete's Beginners Bluegrass Banjo DVD vs the Murphy Method
I know it's hard but please try to stick to the topic at hand let's hear from someone who has actually used Pete's Beginners Bluegrass Banjo DVD. Then maybe we can move on to other things instead of recycling these same points of view again and again.
These kind of debates have been going on for years now simply because people tend to wander off the original topic.
Edited by - Tam_Zeb on 01/17/2011 06:19:49
wb4yal - Posted - 01/17/2011: 05:56:09
I agree with most here that the best method is what teaches YOU the best. I have used Pete's DVDs and I have used Murphy's DVDs and I have received benefits from both. But nothing will be a substitute for a good teacher. The feedback and the insight you will get from personal instruction will definitely make you a better musician and banjo player. Jamming with others will allow you to mature and to grow in your picking.
Good luck!
JoeDownes - Posted - 01/17/2011: 13:13:28
quote:
Originally posted by Tam_Zeb
Hi Joe..
I disagree - that 'foundational skills' should be kept to a minimum
Making stuff up as you put it is not learning Scruggs Style - It's only making stuff up.
The Slow Jam DVDS are not really part of this discussion these are fine but they don't teach Scruggs Foundational Skills. The discussion is about Pete's Beginners Bluegrass Banjo DVD vs the Murphy Method
I know it's hard but please try to stick to the topic at hand let's hear from someone who has actually used Pete's Beginners Bluegrass Banjo DVD. Then maybe we can move on to other things instead of recycling these same points of view again and again.
These kind of debates have been going on for years now simply because people tend to wander off the original topic.
Recommending Pete's jam tapes isn't exactly off-topic. With the slow jam tape a beginner can start to learn to improvise right away, after learning a minimum of foundational skills. That's what I like about Pete's approach.
Pablo9364 - Posted - 01/17/2011: 14:02:10
Joe the slow jam dvd is excellent because there are so many new techniques and skills that once learned can be practised with the slow jam dvd over and over. Backup vamping patterns,backup licks, fill licks, rolls, lead breaks etc. It forces you to keep time to maintain correct rythym and is ideal for a beginner like me because its nice and S L O W.
I think its good to get a variety of methods to try out new things. But as mentioned earlier most of what the student needs to learn may be on the first dvd he ever sees. There are some who need a teacher for lessons because they may lack self discipline and are unable to practise in a structured way and therefore need direction and focus that a teacher can provide.
Tam_Zeb - Posted - 01/17/2011: 15:39:53
Hi Joe.
I hear what you are saying but the discussion is about Pete's Beginners Bluegrass Banjo DVD vs the Murphy Method and not about his other DVD's which I agree are great.
JoeDownes - Posted - 01/17/2011: 16:22:52
Tam Zeb, I don't like these kinds of conversations, so it's fine with me if you don't reply to this. Your last posts were off topic. It's alright with me if you want to ask your own questions on this thread, but please stop telling me I'm off topic when I reply to the original poster's question.
Tam_Zeb - Posted - 01/17/2011: 16:23:37
Hi Joe
A quote from Pete Wernick
"1. My Get Rolling video is not what should be compared to others' methods. That video is my basic "for-idiots"-equivalent to make SURE that ANYONE can play music on the banjo, and it's an easy and quick intro to chord changing and rolling. Beginning Bluegrass Banjo is my full course, spending just a few minutes on "strumming Red River Valley" and such, and then getting into rolls, then rolls/chord changes, then actual arrangements each using just a single roll. Then favorite licks and on into how to create a solo."
You carry on I am out of here.......
StanleyK - Posted - 01/19/2011: 07:15:21
I'm still interested in people's opinions on the original topic. I'd like to hear what others think about the Wernick or Murphy methods being best for them or does a combination of the methods work best?? Or is it just up to the individual and how they learn??
Kennyj - Posted - 01/19/2011: 07:24:21
What's funny (as the OP) is I'm currently using neither. :) I ended up joining tonytrischkaschoolofbanjo.com because I wanted something more interactive but couldn't afford a face-to-face teacher. I'm generally a good self-learner, but I really wanted to have feedback and direction. Perhaps down the line, I will revisit picking up a learning DVD. Given what I know now, I think I'd prefer Pete's... I like the idea of having TAB to use with practice. I don't always get to practice my banjo in front of the computer, so being able to practice a song with the tab would work better for me.
This is what I do with Tony's site. I watch the lesson a couple time, then I work on it with the tab... Unless he gives me a special lesson to work on... Then I attempt to transcribe it to paper (not necessarily tab) so I can work on it away from the computer. I've been happy with my decision so far. I'll almost certainly pick up Pete's jamming DVDs at some point.
Tam_Zeb - Posted - 01/19/2011: 10:31:23
Hi Kenny
Great you found a solution to your learning needs. It's important to ask questions first and make an informed choice rather than go in blindly.
Good Luck
Paul Michael - Posted - 02/02/2011: 17:31:38
quote:
Originally posted by Pete Wernick
quote:
I feel like I have the basic 8 note roll down fairly well & can change chords while rolling OK (I can also vamp OK)
Paul,
You're at a very good level of development. The above skills are just what you need to jam, and give you the foundation for the next step.
But just checking... you said "the basic 8 note roll". How many different rolls do you know? If you don't have four of the main ones (as taught in my beginner's video, and others), you should learn them... forward/backward, "FM Breakdown" roll(s), a forward roll, and TITM. There are more, but those are the main necessary/sufficient tools for the job.
quote:
. I've also discovered I can nearly nail the melody to a tune I know well but I don't do very well combining the melody with a roll.
So that is your next step. It's a difficult one, as the timing can become confused. That's the new banjo player's most common problem (in particular, those who play strictly by rote).
quote:
I haven't learned to "find" the melody within a chord nor how to fret other nearby melody notes while holding a chord. I also think I need to learn some licks to play between phrases of music, when other musicians are pausing.
All you need to do there is fill the space with a straight roll. Yes, though, there are a few very common phrases people substitute for just rolling on a chord. quote:
Your description of learning musicianship or how to play what's in your head sounds like the obvious goal.
You have that right! But I'd say it's not the only goal. There's a lot of drilling (doing different rolls w. chord changes), so rolls go into muscle memory.
quote:
I've read about your DVD's--"Beginning Bluegrass Banjo" and "Make Up your own banjo solo's," and others. So now that you have an idea of where I'm at in experience, which of your DVD's do you think would be most beneficial to help me improve? Thanks for your help.
The next skills for you to tackle are shown in my DVD
Make Up Your Own Solos. The 1st DVD is all about simple, straight melody-based solos in G and it shows lots of ways of putting melody notes into the basic rolls. The key concept is: While rolling in time, and making all the chord changes, try to get a finger to the string that has the melody note on it. So-- if you can roll in time and you know where the melody is, you're not too far off.
2nd DVD is about keys other than G, (mainly D), and up-the-neck in G.
The Beginning Bluegrass Banjo DVD covers the same skills but devotes about 30 minutes to it, compared to the 2 hours on each of the 2 newer ones devoted entirely to creating solos.
As any teacher well knows, a "real" banjo player has to do a lot of trial and error experimentation at some point, to have the flexibility to play breaks on songs in unrehearsed situations. I prefer teaching some of that flexibility almost from the start, once a rhythm/chord foundation is in place.
Pete
Paul Michael - Posted - 02/02/2011: 17:57:20
Pete, I got the DVD you suggested--Making Up your Own Solos--about a week ago. It has really opened a whole new world for me. I guess I was in a "rut" playing / practicing the same things everyday. I'm not nearly to the end of it yet but I've already learned some new rolls and various licks that fit into lots of different songs. For folks that haven't discovered the value of DVD's, I'm sold and plan to use them steadily in the future. I enjoy playing along on songs which is fun & it forces me to stay in time.
I've read that it's important to concentrate on playing "clean" but it's a lot more fun to pick up the pace some. Is it a good idea to practice slow / clean but also practice sometimes at faster speeds even though there are some stumbles? It seems to me that playing faster will help to pick up speed for jams. After all, a lot of jams move along at a pretty fast speed for newer players and it doesn't make sense to only play fast at jams. Also, someone told me to try to find some "speed picks." He said they're hard to find (maybe not in production anymore) but will pick up my playing speed about 30%. If you've heard of them do you agree that they help you play faster?
quote:
Originally posted by Pete Wernick
quote:
I feel like I have the basic 8 note roll down fairly well & can change chords while rolling OK (I can also vamp OK)
Paul,
You're at a very good level of development. The above skills are just what you need to jam, and give you the foundation for the next step.
But just checking... you said "the basic 8 note roll". How many different rolls do you know? If you don't have four of the main ones (as taught in my beginner's video, and others), you should learn them... forward/backward, "FM Breakdown" roll(s), a forward roll, and TITM. There are more, but those are the main necessary/sufficient tools for the job.
quote:
. I've also discovered I can nearly nail the melody to a tune I know well but I don't do very well combining the melody with a roll.
So that is your next step. It's a difficult one, as the timing can become confused. That's the new banjo player's most common problem (in particular, those who play strictly by rote).
quote:
I haven't learned to "find" the melody within a chord nor how to fret other nearby melody notes while holding a chord. I also think I need to learn some licks to play between phrases of music, when other musicians are pausing.
All you need to do there is fill the space with a straight roll. Yes, though, there are a few very common phrases people substitute for just rolling on a chord. quote:
Your description of learning musicianship or how to play what's in your head sounds like the obvious goal.
You have that right! But I'd say it's not the only goal. There's a lot of drilling (doing different rolls w. chord changes), so rolls go into muscle memory.
quote:
I've read about your DVD's--"Beginning Bluegrass Banjo" and "Make Up your own banjo solo's," and others. So now that you have an idea of where I'm at in experience, which of your DVD's do you think would be most beneficial to help me improve? Thanks for your help.
The next skills for you to tackle are shown in my DVD
Make Up Your Own Solos. The 1st DVD is all about simple, straight melody-based solos in G and it shows lots of ways of putting melody notes into the basic rolls. The key concept is: While rolling in time, and making all the chord changes, try to get a finger to the string that has the melody note on it. So-- if you can roll in time and you know where the melody is, you're not too far off.
2nd DVD is about keys other than G, (mainly D), and up-the-neck in G.
The Beginning Bluegrass Banjo DVD covers the same skills but devotes about 30 minutes to it, compared to the 2 hours on each of the 2 newer ones devoted entirely to creating solos.
As any teacher well knows, a "real" banjo player has to do a lot of trial and error experimentation at some point, to have the flexibility to play breaks on songs in unrehearsed situations. I prefer teaching some of that flexibility almost from the start, once a rhythm/chord foundation is in place.
Pete
Pete Wernick - Posted - 02/02/2011: 19:13:54
Paul,
Since playing at jams is a part of your life, yes, I recommend practicing at speeds comparable to those at the jam. Since it's most definitely important to play clean (it makes a big diifference in whether you sound good!), I suggest you set a metronome at 120 or 130 and see how cleanly you can play while staying in time. Whatever it takes to stay in time and play clean, do that! You might need to scale down some of your harder moves and leave them out or simplify them.
The sound of a clean rolling banjo is a delight, so go for that even if you play less "stuff".
Pete
Karen Kruske - Posted - 02/02/2011: 19:23:17
Thanks Pete for the information you presented. I am just getting started and have been working on a few things, but your passion for what you do has me convinced that I will benefit from using your method of learning. The check is in the mail!!!
Richard Dress - Posted - 02/02/2011: 20:05:09
"The sound of a clean rolling banjo is a delight, so go for that even if you play less "stuff"." -- Pete Wernick
That is really good advice, and free too.
Another way of looking at it is be careful when you speed up tab. Tab has a speed limit. You have to 'streamline' the tab to make it work at faster tempos.
Rich Weill - Posted - 02/03/2011: 07:36:04
quote:
Originally posted by Pete Wernick
You might need to scale down some of your harder moves and leave them out or simplify them.
Great advice, Pete. Commonly, people looking to play something faster (often so they can keep up with others) are told either to keep playing slowly and speed will come on its own, or to work on pushing their speed to the point where they start to make mistakes, and then pull back. You've pointed out a third option: the inverse relationship between speed and complexity. To play it faster, play it simpler.
The problem for some people is that they are wedded to playing things only one way. That makes simplifying difficult. In order to simply, you have to know what the arrangement looked like before the last layers of complexity were added. You have to know how a banjo arrangement is built from the ground up in order to scale it down and still retain a recognizable tune.
Z Daniels - Posted - 02/03/2011: 08:05:59
I'm gonna second Pete with the metronome comment. The metronome does not lie. That's how I got better with the speed thing. Definitely start slow and play it clean, then raise the bar. Don't raise it until you're playing clean at that bpm. Be honest with yourself. Are you really playing it clean?
Paul Michael - Posted - 02/16/2011: 06:08:16
I finished the first DVD of "Making Up Your Own Solos" last night. This banjo stuff is so fun and amazing! As I'm just beginning to build a toolbox of licks and rolls, I was shocked last night when my fingers added in a lick without any real mental intent. Pete stated on the DVD that eventually the rolls come as naturally as walking--without thought--and I got a glimpse of it. Wow! The more I practice, the smoother it's getting. Thanks for all the help everyone.
Gold Star GF-85 - Posted - 02/17/2011: 04:58:00
I think both are good sources of learning but one may fit ou need better than the other, try one of each and see what works best for you..
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