Tuneager - Posted - 12/07/2009:  11:37:48

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I have noticed the terms "Jazz" and/or "Bebop" thrown around very loosely regarding the banjo. Jazz is sometimes a rather nefariously nebulous term when applied to musicians like Kenny G or Yanni who certainly couldn't play Bebop like Parker or Coltrane.

There are many phenomenal players and I enjoy seeing new directions and ways of playing the banjo. To my ear, the only 5-string banjoist I've heard who ever came close to fulfilling the category of "Jazz", or more specifically"Bebop", is Pat Cloud. His approach to the banjo utilizes a melodic style approach and a knowledge of music theory that is very unique.

While there's some other recordings with him, Higher Power in 1983 was his only solo recording. While most of us play the banjo with our right hand, so does Pat, but he's left-handed and able to do things most players can't. To quote Tony Trischka, "He is the first five-string player to achieve a wide-reaching command of the jazz vocabulary, and as such inhabit a rarefied world which he now shares with a select few. To hear him play is amazing, but to watch him elicit those streams of "boppish" notes from a predominantly bluegrass instrument is other-wordly."

Pat Cloud certainly deserves his due, I know a lot of you have heard of him, but in the mean time...

Here's 3 great videos of Pat Cloud playing live:

youtube.com/user/cloudjo56#p/u...IVH7sl040 Parker's, "Anthropology"

youtube.com/user/cloudjo56#p/u...xbcrQXzSw Monk's, "Straight No Chaser"

youtube.com/watch?v=sMQXqi3UlEo Gershwin's, "Lady Be Good"


Since originally posting this thread I have uploaded 4 videos of Pat Cloud that I shot at informal jam sessions in 1992, which can be seen here, both with links to video here on BHO, and on You Tube (where you can watch the videos in Fullscreen):

Foggy Mt. Special (w/ Bill Knopf accompaniment):
banjohangout.org/myhangout/vid...p?id=3695 BHO
youtube.com/watch?v=LZRyaX7QeVE You Tube

Farewell Blues (w/ Tony Furtado and Yoshihiro Arita):
banjohangout.org/myhangout/vid...p?id=3730 BHO
youtube.com/watch?v=DLOwXdwP1Io You Tube

Honeysuckle Rose (w/ Bill Knopf accompaniment):
banjohangout.org/myhangout/vid...p?id=3712 BHO
youtube.com/watch?v=VvTqmQfU3uQ You Tube

Soldier's Joy (w/ Carroll Best):
banjohangout.org/myhangout/vid...p?id=3883 BHO
youtube.com/watch?v=xKzmuApeUvY You Tube

If I upload any other videos, I will post links here in the future.

You can find 10 free audio downloads kindly provided by Pat previously at:
patcloud.com/PChtml/recordings.html

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Edited by - Tuneager on 02/01/2010 09:36:31

trapdoor2 - Posted - 12/07/2009:  13:52:14

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Pat was a member here for a while (a few years ago). He tried to share his knowledge with us as much as possible. As I recall, he drew some fire for some reason and left.

People like Pat have a vision that few others comprehend...and it is often difficult to share that sort of vision with others. I enjoyed his forum topics and hope he's doing well. His pentatonic tutor is excellent and I keep it in my reference library next to Bill Keith's book.

===Marc

pearcemusic - Posted - 12/07/2009:  14:03:47

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yep ... took a lesson from him 28 years ago ... I'm still working on it.

Also played bass in ensembles with him ... he is amazing.

I would add that guys like Bela and Ryan as well as Noam are quite capable of boppish playing .... as well as many other things, as we know.

Pat played at the Banjo Cafe in Santa Monica in the early 80's ... with different groups of guys.
Most memorable for me was Pat, Bob Applebaum and Tim Emmons ... with different guitar players, but I think Barry Solomon was the guy I saw with them the most ....

Those were great days for Bluegrass and acoustic jazz in So Cal.

Laurence Diehl - Posted - 12/07/2009:  14:22:53

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Pat is great. I don't understand what you mean by this statement:
"His approach to the banjo accomplished a theoretical approach that single-string style simply can't do. "

dhergert - Posted - 12/07/2009:  14:23:17

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Pat is a remarkable player in many ways. I am honored to say that he is a friend. My wife and I try to catch his shows whenever we can.

Pat's grasp of the use of full chord jazz patterns is the best of any player I've ever seen and while his understanding of just about everything banjo is way over my head, I love jamming with him.

My understanding is that he is currently working on a Gypsy Jazz album in his "free time". He's on staff at Disneyland full time, playing plectrum and 5-string banjo with various bands and special musical projects around the park.

He's a great guy, it's BHO's loss that he doesn't come around here anymore.

pearcemusic - Posted - 12/07/2009:  15:03:17

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quote:

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Originally posted by dhergert



Pat's grasp of the use of full chord jazz patterns is the best of any player I've ever seen and while his understanding of just about everything banjo is way over my head,

He's a great guy, it's BHO's loss that he doesn't come around here anymore.

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totally agree ... his understanding is way better than most of us.

He opened himself up early on ... to more complex harmonic and linear concepts.
... and in my discussions with him, he never cared HOW you played ... single string, etc ... he was interested in passing the music on to us "mere mortals".

Pat was a legend on the east coast when I moved to Cal in 1980 .... I sought him out right away .... great talent ... great guy

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Edited by - pearcemusic on 12/07/2009 15:23:33

pearcemusic - Posted - 12/07/2009:  16:16:26

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tuneager

quote:

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Originally posted by Laurence Diehl

Pat is great. I don't understand what you mean by this statement:
"His approach to the banjo accomplished a theoretical approach that single-string style simply can't do. "

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I was trying to convey that from a music theory point of view, single-string style (or Reno style if you wish) just can't accomplish the wide variety of asymmetrical phrasings and complicated harmonic substitutions for more basic chords, or the emphasis of certain dissonant intervals quite as well as Pat's approach which melodically is just not possible using a single-string improvisational style which is just too linear.

That's not to say that single-string style isn't a great improvisational tool, it's just not Bebop or Jazz to me in the same way that Pat's playing is. There's some great single-string style players and some great players that may sound "boppish" at times, but it's just not the same. Pat Cloud is an anomaly to the banjo much in the same way as Allan Holdsworth is to the guitar. To my ear he's the only banjo player to truly have become a jazz musician. To put it another way I don't see him as a banjo player trying to play jazz as much as he is a jazz musician who just hapened to pick banjo as his instrument of choice.

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I see what you are saying ... although Holdsworth is hardly be-bop.

Pat and Allan both approach the instrument (in part) from a linear top to bottom of the instrument point of view ... they "see" the fingerboard as a total musical "box" rather than the more "boxy" approach of "chord" focused players.

The only problem with your single string comment is that ... there are those of us who look at single string playing in a more "guitar"-ish way.
If you put us in the same mold as a straight up reno style player, you might have to take all of the great bop guitars players out of the "bop" world too. they are all .. in essence ... single string players.

I think Pat would agree with that statement.

pearcemusic - Posted - 12/07/2009:  17:32:02

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tuneager

I guess I'm not getting the point across properly, I just see too many banjo players claiming to play jazz when they are just noodling solos, and Pat seems to be the only one to me who really has the in depth knowledge and ability to pull it off melodically. His approach is unique to banjo, sorry to offend any single-stringers out there, that was not my intent, but what Pat does can't be duplicated with your approach. Single-string and Reno style became a synonymous term at one point, and then it was adapted for other styles of playing. On the other hand, great jazz guitar players are hardly comparable to single-string style banjoists. Holdsworth's music may hardly be bebop, but his soloing is closer to Parker and Coltrane, pushed even farther out there, than most all other guitarists around. If you have some samples of Pat Cloud solos worked out in the single-string style I'd be glad to give them a listen. I was just trying to pay homage to an under-appreciated genius. I would never presume to know what Pat would or wouldn't agree with, but I know him a lot better than you might think.

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I'm not offended at all (how could i be? I'm no where near the types of players we are mentioning) ... it's a great post about a great player .... and yes a VERY unique player as is holdsworth ... love 'em both.

... and I don't presume what Pat thinks ... but in my speaking with him, I think that he would give great respect to straight up bebop guitar players ... I think of the guys from a Mike Stern approach ... or even Pat Metheny, who can bop with the best of them.

Pat is a very self deprecating genius ...

btw ... I think of Holdsworth as very Coltrane-ish, but less Parker-esque. Allan himself claims to not use the types of scalar sounds that more traditional jazz guys use. He is also a self deprecating genius.

I've enjoyed your perspective ... thanks for posting.

another btw ..
Bob Applebaum and Barry Solomon play with him on anthropology and straight ... (if I'm recognizing them correctly)
brought back some memories .... thanks

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Edited by - pearcemusic on 12/07/2009 17:51:05

pearcemusic - Posted - 12/07/2009:  18:05:57

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tuneager

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Most of my favorite musicians have been self-deprecating because they pay homage to all the greats who came before. The one's I've met who think they are the greats and are arrogant, it makes me just lose interest in their music.

[/quote]

amen to that !!!

thanks for listening to Birdland .... meager attempt, but I'm glad to have just gotten thru it !!!

I'm a forever student ... always enthralled with what those who came before me (in music .. not necessarily in age unfortunately) have accomplished.

AND ... like you, I'd bet, I'm always hunting for better ways of doing things on the banjo that are different.

I saw your list of fav musicians ... quite a list !!!

many many of my faves as well.

gdoc - Posted - 12/07/2009:  21:47:13

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Just a light side note.. One time I asked Pat if he ever used a capo. He said very politely, "no, I need all them notes."

Laurence Diehl - Posted - 12/08/2009:  08:52:15

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tuneager

quote:

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Originally posted by Laurence Diehl

Pat is great. I don't understand what you mean by this statement:
"His approach to the banjo accomplished a theoretical approach that single-string style simply can't do. "

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I guess Pat can simply accomplish certain things that other players could only dream of and his playing is beyond compare. The amazing thing is he holds back most of the time, but when he lets loose it's just crazy.

Regardless, your playing is quite excellent as well. You deserve all of the 5 star ratings on your page. Keep on Pickin'..............

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Hey, thanks a lot. I am not trying to champion "single string" type playing versus anything else - I am actually rather uncomfotable in that style, but I turn to it to get the notes I want when nothing else works!
But check out this guy - he is not a banjo player playing jazz, he is a jazz player playing banjo, in my opinion. Lots of single string too...

banjohangout.org/myhangout/med...icid=1891

banjohangout.org/myhangout/med...icid=1811

stanger - Posted - 12/08/2009:  16:13:45

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Hi, Tuneager...
Good topic!
I admire Pat a lot. The thing about Pat is he learned how to play using the same influences most bluegrass players have, developed a real desire to play be-bop on his chosen instrument, and came to excel at his chosen music genre.
Just like a sax player can play rock instead of jazz, or a piano player can play country instead of jazz, Pat showed the jazz community that a 5-string banjo has just as legitimate a place in the music as a guitar or bass- jazz doesn't have to have horns in it to be jazz.

At the same time, Pat showed the banjo community that the 5-string banjo is a fully capable and a fully sophisticated instrument instrument in it's own right. It isn't trapped in it's roots as a folk instrument like the dulcimer- it's just as good at playing 12 tone scales as any other jazz instrument is, with a distinctive voice and approach all it's own.

Few of us have the passion for the instrument Pat has, and few of us immerse ourselves as deeply as Pat in a very complicated music style. Few of us are willing to put in the time- a formidable amount of time and effort, in head learning and hand learning, that Pat did to accomplish his goals.

Be-bop is not a style of jazz that is no-brain easy listening stuff. It takes a lot of intellectual engagement to listen to and to play. And relatively few folks ever become at ease with the most out-on-the-edge stuff. I'm just glad we have a few really good banjoists who have the chops and confidence to handle the music, and I'm glad Pat was around to lead the way.
regards,
stanger

gdoc - Posted - 12/08/2009:  18:42:45

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quote:

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Originally posted by stanger

Hi, Tuneager...
Good topic!
I admire Pat a lot. The thing about Pat is he learned how to play using the same influences most bluegrass players have, developed a real desire to play be-bop on his chosen instrument, and came to excel at his chosen music genre.
Just like a sax player can play rock instead of jazz, or a piano player can play country instead of jazz, Pat showed the jazz community that a 5-string banjo has just as legitimate a place in the music as a guitar or bass- jazz doesn't have to have horns in it to be jazz.

At the same time, Pat showed the banjo community that the 5-string banjo is a fully capable and a fully sophisticated instrument instrument in it's own right. It isn't trapped in it's roots as a folk instrument like the dulcimer- it's just as good at playing 12 tone scales as any other jazz instrument is, with a distinctive voice and approach all it's own.

Few of us have the passion for the instrument Pat has, and few of us immerse ourselves as deeply as Pat in a very complicated music style. Few of us are willing to put in the time- a formidable amount of time and effort, in head learning and hand learning, that Pat did to accomplish his goals.

Be-bop is not a style of jazz that is no-brain easy listening stuff. It takes a lot of intellectual engagement to listen to and to play. And relatively few folks ever become at ease with the most out-on-the-edge stuff. I'm just glad we have a few really good banjoists who have the chops and confidence to handle the music, and I'm glad Pat was around to lead the way.
regards,
stanger

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Stranger, you said a mouthfull!!! I agree almost to the tee..only exception is I bet Pat Cloud could play jazz on the dulicmer. (just kidding, but he might).

Tom Hanway - Posted - 12/08/2009:  19:11:14

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It's nice to be left in awe after watching these videos and hearing everybody rallying around Pat Cloud, who truly deserves all the admiration and respect.... Music loves him.

aroblin - Posted - 12/09/2009:  03:45:33

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Thanks very much for the videos, Tuneager.

What a great master.

Lots of respect and appreciation.

stanger - Posted - 12/09/2009:  05:06:53

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This thread got me thinking about influences.
Banjo players all have their professional influences- J.D. Crowe, Pat Cloud, Fred Cockerham, Eddie Peabody, or whoever. Like any fans of a particular instrument, some folks listen to many different players and others favor just a few.

But at the same time, local players have just as much influence on beginners as the professionals- maybe more, because a huge part of learning to play the banjo is the learning of who plays the instrument.

We have very few stars who sell millions of records at a whack, and those players who do are folks like Bernie Leadon, who played as part of a group, the Eagles, where the banjo was just another instrument that was used sometimes in the band.

Folks like Earl Scruggs are real rarities for us, and for most of us, the opportunities to have a flesh and blood experience with a real virtuoso is rare. Back when I first started in 1962, my main influences weren't the guys who were on the records- I listened to my stack of vinyl until all the grooves were grey, but the listening didn't make the playing any more comprehensible to me, and back then, there were only two books I could find devoted to the 5-string; Pete Seeger's book, and a Guckert chord manual that was written in 1903 and was still in print.

The people who first gave me some vague means of penetrating the veil of banjo mystery were a very small handful of locals- older folks who had learned a lot like I first learned, by picking up a banjo when they were teens, getting what the could from others, and sticking with it. Every one of them had a very singular style and none of them knew how to read music, didn't know any theory, and could only play relatively few tunes- someone who had a repertoire of 20 songs was considered a real expert player.

Things are much different now. There is a vast wealth of educational material for the banjo, and the systems of teaching are much improved. There is more standardization and more division of approach now than back then- today, there are a lot of players who have never tried to learn frailing on one side or 3-finger on the other, or all the in-between styles that are still being played.

Many beginners are learning in isolation. They buy books, DVD's, tapes, charts and all kinds of stuff, and get what they can, but they don't go looking for the guy across town, or over in the next county, who has been playing for years.

For sure, finding other players locally isn't easy. It takes a lot of getting out and digging them up. And it takes an amount of social courage to call someone out of the blue, and even more to just show up at their door some afternoon, banjo in hand. But once I made those efforts at age 18, I learned a lot, not only about the banjo. I learned about banjo players, who as a group, are almost all starved for sharing what they know and don't know.

With every player I found, I found one more. Then two or three more. When I went off to college, I ended up knowing players from one end of the state to the other in time. And every single one of them influenced me in many ways.

When I joined the Navy, I used to travel around with a banjo on my shoulder- no case, just a strap- after I learned where the areas were that the music was being played. I could have been mugged, maybe, and got my banjo ripped off in some of those places, but it never happened. To the reverse, my banjo was a magnet that brought strangers to me. Most often they only knew of someone who played, but I met lots of players, too.
And as I learned from them, they learned from me. Over time, I became the local guy who folks dug up. And I know I influenced lots of these people, just as I was.

I like jazz, always have. But I didn't like be-bop much for a long time. My real introduction to it came from a bass playing friend of mine. He started out as a kid playing rock on his electric bass, but had the same attitude I had- it's all good, and every kind of music has something to offer for any kind of instrument. He didn't know squat about bluegrass, but he liked it once he got to know some, and I taught him lots of tunes we played together.

Eventually, I was able to lay an acoustic bass on him, and shortly afterwards, he decided to make a living as a bass player. That was over 30 years ago now, and he's still making a living with that acoustic bass I gave him. To make a steady income, he realized that he needed to be able to take any calls that came his way, regardless of the type of music, so he learned jazz. He immersed himself in a music genre that, at first, was just another way of making money, but he soon came to love it.

And shortly afterward, taught me to love it, too. We became each other's main influences, and we still influence each other to this day. Once I reached out, more and more came back. It's all a big circle if a person keeps his ears open and takes anything that comes as serious and valid. When a person passes it on with good will and honest intent, the circle continues to grow.

The fellow or lady right next door can be the best musician you have ever heard, but it won't happen unless one of you reaches out to the other. Finding a teacher is great, but finding a friend is even better, and those local influences are the strongest of all.

Here are a few of mine. In their way, they were all the best players I ever heard...
Paul Crowder, Adele Hunter, John Thomsen, Harry Chirumbulo, Mark Statler, Bill Sweetwood, Bill Cheatwood, Paul Savignac, Paul Bock, John Beebanger, Louise Thornton, Bill Liles, Greg Boyd, Fred Frank, Jack McGrath, Bruce Harvie, and 100 others. Some of these friends are here on the Hangout, and a few of them are fairly well known, but most are just like me... they play for the love of making music.

When you go looking, the world of music can really open up. The banjo can play anything that fits. You are the only limitation.
regards,
stanger

pearcemusic - Posted - 12/09/2009:  06:23:58

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quote:

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Originally posted by stanger


Here are a few of mine. In their way, they were all the best players I ever heard...
Paul Crowder, Adele Hunter, John Thomsen, Harry Chirumbulo, Mark Statler, Bill Sweetwood, Bill Cheatwood, Paul Savignac, Paul Bock, John Beebanger, Louise Thornton, Bill Liles, Greg Boyd, Fred Frank, Jack McGrath, Bruce Harvie, and 100 others. Some of these friends are here on the Hangout, and a few of them are fairly well known, but most are just like me... they play for the love of making music.

When you go looking, the world of music can really open up. The banjo can play anything that fits. You are the only limitation.
regards,
stanger

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awesome post stanger ....

my journey started with a single record, an old gibson electric bass, and 2 teenage pals who wanted to play rock music together. Then a few records later I discovered 5 string banjo, bought a $25 harmony ... didn't know squat ... couldn't find a banjo book or player anywhere.

Then I ran into Bob Gaddis (beegee) around 71 or 72 .... he got me on the right track.
Showed me Scruggs style ...

fast forward 35 years ... I could never list the number of musicians that have influenced me.

I think, if I were to think hard, I could find one thing that I've learned from every single player I've ever played with .... (some things were "how not to do's")

Musicians for the most part are generous sharing people ... as evidence by this forum ... the more you know, the more you learn, the more you get to know ....

To keep it to the "bop" thread ... It took me quite a while to like to listen to it. Once I discovered the richness of the music, I wanted to know all I could in hopes of being able to play with others who play the type of music. It was a daunting task for me, but the players I played with encouraged me ... and now, I can sort of hold my own.

I'm no where near Pat Cloud's ability ... and never will be ...

but I continue to meet guys who put up with me ... and are willing to teach me along the way.

pearcemusic - Posted - 12/09/2009:  08:59:39

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I think I have original hand written pages from the first lesson I took from Pat in 1980.
Hopefully Pat won't mind if I post pics for those on this thread ....
and I REALLY AM still working on those lessons, though the focus has changed many times over the years.

.... there is a great pic of Pat and Bill Knopf at the Blueridge Pickin' Parlor from the late 1970s .... 5th from the left.

billknopf.com/photos.html

(4th from the right is a pic with Bill, Kenny Blackwell, Howard Yearwood and me at the 1984 Olympics ... WOW time flies !!)

pearcemusic - Posted - 12/09/2009:  10:11:50

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tuneager

quote:

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Originally posted by pearcemusic

.... there is a great pic of Pat and Bill Knopf at the Blueridge Pickin' Parlor from the late 1970s .... 5th from the left.

billknopf.com/photos.html

(4th from the right is a pic with Bill, Kenny Blackwell, Howard Yearwood and me at the 1984 Olympics ... WOW time flies !!)

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That's very cool that you got to play with Bill Knopf, he's another really great player, I remember that pic of Pat and Bill from one of Trischka's banjo books. One of the highlights of my life was going to Tenn. Banjo Institute weekend in 1991 having lunch with Bill Knopf, Pat Cloud, Pete Seeger, John Hartford, and Bill Keith. Afterwards, I helped push a car out of the mud with Pete Seeger next to me!! I followed Pat around that whole weekend and rode to the concert at the end with him, Bill Knopf, and Bill Keith. It was a great weekend, I was in banjo player heaven.

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Bill is a GREAT guy !!! I've played bizillions of gigs with him and the other guys in that pic.

Every year he attends the Topanga Banjo Fiddle contest and accompanies his students in the banjo portion of the contest. He is a very generous guy.
I worked at the Blueridge (I'm pretty sure the store where that pic was taken) in the early 80's so I spent a lot of time around those guys.

One day I was practicing electric bass ... some Jaco-esque bebop tune in the main lobby of the store. Pat sat down with me and said ... "Ok Jaco ... let's go!" .... he played his butt off ... I sat there trying to keep up ... I always feel so stupid in the presence of greatness.

androo - Posted - 12/09/2009:  12:41:19

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If you're going to talk about jazz banjo Ryan Cavanaugh is driving that bus now!

Laurence also provided some links to Tom Slavicek playing some great jazz on banjo as well.

pearcemusic - Posted - 12/09/2009:  13:27:09

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quote:

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Originally posted by androo

If you're going to talk about jazz banjo Ryan Cavanaugh is driving that bus now!

Laurence also provided some links to Tom Slavicek playing some great jazz on banjo as well.

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Ryan is a great player for sure .... I don't know about driving the bus, though.
I've played with Pat at his best, and he is a sight to see.

Tonecaster - Posted - 12/09/2009:  18:31:27

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I agree with Doub. On the long trip of Jazz you can have different drivers at different times and they all can drive it just fine. Great job on Birdland by the way, Doub.

Russ

pearcemusic - Posted - 12/09/2009:  19:15:50

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tonecaster

I agree with Doub. On the long trip of Jazz you can have different drivers at different times and they all can drive it just fine. Great job on Birdland by the way, Doub.

Russ

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thanks Russ ... 'preciate you listening

here's page 1 of my first lesson with Pat circa 1980 .... thanks Pat ... I hope this is ok.
you can see my scribbling on the page ... sorry for that ....


pg 2


pg3



I just realized I'm missing the page where he explains the different dominant chord sounds to practice over the V chord. I'll look for it and post

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Edited by - pearcemusic on 12/10/2009 10:29:31

mikey5string - Posted - 12/10/2009:  10:51:34

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hey doub. i was playing the chord changes you have up there and im trying to play all the chords below the 5th string.

how would you make a Cmaj7th? it is a C with a 7th (B) right? it comes out to be an Em chord and sounds very minor to me.

i can play the B on the 3rd string 4th fret and the C on the 2nd string 1st fret but having those two notes so close sounds
pretty dissonant to me.

do you have any suggestions?

minstrelmike - Posted - 12/10/2009:  10:58:56

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The only real Cmaj chord position I've found is the F shape with the 1st string dropped:

F: 3213
F7: 3211
FM7: 3212
which means you need to move everything up to the 10th fret.

5559 is also a CM7 but I find the sound unsatisfying.

The Eminor shape works well enough. The fingerings of extended chords are tricky and I change them depending on circumstance. when playing solo, I want the bass (4th string) to sound coherent. when playing in a group where other instruments will have the bass and the 5th notes of every chord, I'll focus more on the additional notes.

Some folks say this is also an FM7: 2123 but others say it ain't because the lowest note 'ought' to be the highest one. Choosing inversions is always tricky.
Mike Moxcey

pearcemusic - Posted - 12/10/2009:  11:14:12

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quote:

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Originally posted by mikey5string

hey doub. i was playing the chord changes you have up there and im trying to play all the chords below the 5th string.

how would you make a Cmaj7th? it is a C with a 7th (B) right? it comes out to be an Em chord and sounds very minor to me.

i can play the B on the 3rd string 4th fret and the C on the 2nd string 1st fret but having those two notes so close sounds
pretty dissonant to me.

do you have any suggestions?

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my favorite Cmaj7 is 9555
with the maj7 in the bottom .... I use it all of the time ...
as a matter of fact I'm using that exact voicing on a Christmas song with the fam band tomorrow night.
so
B on the 4th string
C on the 3rd
E on the 2nd
and
G on the first

that ii-V-I in C could be
Dm 7767 or just the top 3 strings of the voicing
G7 ... 5767 (this voicing has a 9 and no 3rd)
and
CMaj7 9555

you could sub a C#7 for the G7
so
Dm ... x767
C#7 ... 9666
and
CMaj7 ... 9555

this is all middle of the fingerboard in it's voicings ...
if you want below the 5th FRET .... it's a stretch, but you could do
2410 for a Cmaj9 (it's fine)
or
2505 ....

I like the dissonance ....

these exercises were mostly for scale studies, but getting thru the changes can help you see starting points for scales within the chord shape.
Pat was teaching me to see larger chunks of the fingerboard ... with scales ... fragments ... and harmonizations of the scales ...

These things still kill me ...

mikey5string - Posted - 12/10/2009:  12:20:40

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now that im playing it i really dig the dissonance of the 2410 chord the 5767 shape is cool too. that would be a GM7th correct?

another form i like is (in this example its a Dm7 i believe) 7987. its a bastard for me to hit that chord clean though at any speed though. you could go right to a CM7 by changing the 4th string to the 10th fret.

learning/playing new extended chords really gives me new ideas and fresh approaches to playing/composing. thanks.

pearcemusic - Posted - 12/10/2009:  23:33:18

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quote:

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Originally posted by mikey5string

now that im playing it i really dig the dissonance of the 2410 chord the 5767 shape is cool too. that would be a GM7th correct?

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it's an ambiguous chord because the 3rd is missing ... so it works for either G7 or Gm7.

and if I'm reading right ... the 7987 is sort of like an Am7 w/o a 3rd ... when related to the Cmaj anyway ...
it could be that ambiguous A7 as well.

fun, huh?

gdoc - Posted - 12/11/2009:  00:09:48

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See what Pat Cloud started????? back when I first learned banjo it was G...C...D7..G... Now you guys are talking about "this chord replacing that chord, missing that note or this note...? Pat Cloud would be proud.

pearcemusic - Posted - 12/11/2009:  06:48:56

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quote:

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Originally posted by gdoc

See what Pat Cloud started????? back when I first learned banjo it was G...C...D7..G... Now you guys are talking about "this chord replacing that chord, missing that note or this note...? Pat Cloud would be proud.

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banjopaolo - Posted - 12/18/2009:  06:40:53

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Hi
I'm not an expert 5 string player (I play mostly tenor but also some 5str) but I'm a jazz musician, I've uploaded a tab with the harmonies of the song 'autum leaves' for five string maybe some of you can find it intersting...
btw I must say I do not appreciate very much bebop on banjo, there are some great player of course that can play donna lee in a good way, but I think bebop frasing is very far from banjo sound, I'm that other kind of jazz (for example modal jazz) could be more suitable on banjo..
best
paolo

Tuneager - Posted - 12/19/2009:  22:05:09

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Here's a recent video I posted on You Tube of Pat playing Foggy Mt. Special at a workshop in 1992:

youtube.com/watch?v=LZRyaX7QeVE

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Edited by - Tuneager on 12/20/2009 12:12:54

gdoc - Posted - 12/19/2009:  22:16:46

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Thanks Tuneager.... wow!

pearcemusic - Posted - 12/20/2009:  08:00:04

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awesome Charlie ... thanks ....

I got a big smile on my face at about 3:10 ..... that's the PC I remember.

I wish I could turn it on like that ....

Tonecaster - Posted - 12/20/2009:  10:21:46

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I've started to go through Pats book and he really does have a great way of looking at the fretboard. Super playing! Thanks.

Russ

Jeff 1965 - Posted - 12/22/2009:  17:03:02

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tuneager

Here's a recent video I posted on You Tube of Pat playing Foggy Mt. Special at a workshop in 1992:

youtube.com/watch?v=LZRyaX7QeVE

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Dang! I never heard Pat play before. That was good! Did you hear what he said at the very end of the video? "Basically jazz is just filling in spots." Dang!

randal morton - Posted - 12/23/2009:  19:29:53

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Hey Charlie, Thanks for connecting with me. That was my VW that you, Pete Seeger, Pat Cloud & Tony Furtado help me push out of the mud by the cabin! Ha!I appreciate the help! The breaks failed, I was trying to get to the cabin to hear Pat play! What a Genius & I too am blessed to call him my friend. Thank you for posting the video's. I would suggest banjoist listening to his lp. "Higher Power" Flying Fish records. Incredible!
Your friend, Randal

Tuneager - Posted - 12/24/2009:  02:59:42

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Hey Randal,

Nice to say hello again, great to see you're still at it. Hard to believe that was all 17 years ago. You were very humble that night playing with Pat, Tony Furtado, and James McKinney. You let them have all the solos that night while you yourself had won the Winfield competition in 1975 with Mark O'Connor, of all people, accompanying you. I'll have to post another short clip , the only tune you played that night, your version of "Girl From Ipanema". In the meanwhile here's another short clip I posted on You Tube of Pat playing "Honeysuckle Rose":

youtube.com/watch?v=VvTqmQfU3uQ

stormoveroklahoma - Posted - 12/24/2009:  07:55:04

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tuneager

You're welcome, I have a few more where that came from.

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Mind posting a few more.

Pat's playing is genius. Too rare a treat to hear him. I live in Vermont but wish I lived in California (my birth state) sometimes. Does Pat teach any seminars or clinics?

Storm

5stringypsy - Posted - 12/24/2009:  08:20:25

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wow.. I've never seen him before, that Foggy Mtn Special was awesome!! I wonder if we're related?? I am a Cloud by birth He looks like a few of my family members lol

5stringypsy - Posted - 12/24/2009:  08:34:29

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quote:

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Originally posted by banjopaolo

Hi
I'm not an expert 5 string player (I play mostly tenor but also some 5str) but I'm a jazz musician, I've uploaded a tab with the harmonies of the song 'autum leaves' for five string maybe some of you can find it intersting...
btw I must say I do not appreciate very much bebop on banjo, there are some great player of course that can play donna lee in a good way, but I think bebop frasing is very far from banjo sound, I'm that other kind of jazz (for example modal jazz) could be more suitable on banjo..
best
paolo

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Hey Paolo! I'm pretty new to banjo but I'm sold on playin the swing and bop, just wish there was SOMEONE close here for me to play with, all the jazz guys I know (and they're pretty good) that are close scoff at the mention of banjo lol...

on your comment, I've been having allot of fun playin along with some of those Aebersold tracks lately and all that Wayne Shorter stuff, and some of that Miles stuff like Joshua, and some of that Horace Silver stuff, that type of Jazz has prompted me to think different immediately and its a blast to play along with because like you said banjo lends itself to that stuff and its almost a sin at how potentialy easy it could be to play over that stuff and it sound beautiful.. it's just gettin someone to let you come play "jazz" on your banjo that I'm worried about lol I want to hear some1 work up un poco loco for banjo trio haha :p

pearcemusic - Posted - 12/24/2009:  09:04:49

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tuneager

Hey Randal,
In the meanwhile here's another short clip I posted on You Tube of Pat playing "Honeysuckle Rose":

youtube.com/watch?v=VvTqmQfU3uQ

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thanks again Charlie .... and Pat !!!!

banjopaolo - Posted - 12/25/2009:  15:14:48

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Hey Paolo! I'm pretty new to banjo but I'm sold on playin the swing and bop, just wish there was SOMEONE close here for me to play with, all the jazz guys I know (and they're pretty good) that are close scoff at the mention of banjo lol...

on your comment, I've been having allot of fun playin along with some of those Aebersold tracks lately and all that Wayne Shorter stuff, and some of that Miles stuff like Joshua, and some of that Horace Silver stuff, that type of Jazz has prompted me to think different immediately and its a blast to play along with because like you said banjo lends itself to that stuff and its almost a sin at how potentialy easy it could be to play over that stuff and it sound beautiful.. it's just gettin someone to let you come play "jazz" on your banjo that I'm worried about lol I want to hear some1 work up un poco loco for banjo trio haha :p
[/quote]


I play a lot of Monk tunes on banjo, both on tenor and five string, I think monk's music works very well on banjo because his sound on piano was a bit 'banjoistic', not Bud Powell's!
paolo

5stringypsy - Posted - 12/25/2009:  18:03:34

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lol... I dunno.. I think it would sound "fun" in a "not exactly like Primus kind of way but a little more serious than.." heh... Banjola.. tenor.. and a 5string?? yeah.. a washboard and an upright?? hah.. a scary Caribean circus theme song

Tuneager - Posted - 12/27/2009:  20:22:58

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I added a 3rd video from 1992 of Pat Cloud, Yoshihiro Arita, and Tony Furtado playing jazzy renditions of Scruggs Farewell Blues:

youtube.com/watch?v=DLOwXdwP1Io

pearcemusic - Posted - 12/28/2009:  11:48:08

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tuneager

I added a 3rd video from 1992 of Pat Cloud, Yoshihiro Arita, and Tony Furtado playing jazzy renditions of Scruggs Farewell Blues:

youtube.com/watch?v=DLOwXdwP1Io

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yeah baby !!!! .... really awesome fun !!!

Tonecaster - Posted - 12/28/2009:  18:58:36

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Thanks again!

BanjoSampler - Posted - 01/09/2010:  12:59:00

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I had the opportunity to take some lessons from Pat in 1981. As was stated earlier by someone else, I am still working on it!

In 1978, I was a part of the Knott's Berry Farm Invitational Banjo/Fiddle Contest. Byron Berline was one of the judges. After we all played, it was announced that I was in a playoff for first place - my opponent - Pat Cloud! Yikes!

gdoc - Posted - 01/12/2010:  01:11:55

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quote:

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Originally posted by BanjoSampler

I had the opportunity to take some lessons from Pat in 1981. As was stated earlier by someone else, I am still working on it!

In 1978, I was a part of the Knott's Berry Farm Invitational Banjo/Fiddle Contest. Byron Berline was one of the judges. After we all played, it was announced that I was in a playoff for first place - my opponent - Pat Cloud! Yikes!

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Who won?