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martycutler - Posted - 02/06/2010: 07:31:11
quote:
Originally posted by Ira Gitlin
[quote]Originally posted by renofan52
[b]
BTW, Marty, my favorite Wretched Refuse memory was of a show in Dec. 1975 at a church in Greenwich Village, where the whole band was in costume. IIRC, you wore a bathrobe, slippers, and a beret. Matt Glaser was in drag, Bob Jones was a purple-robed wizard, Shulberg was a Hasidic rebbe, etc. I think Ben Freed may have posted some photos of that show somewhere. Got a link to it?
One of my most memorable Wretched Refuse gigs--and that's saying a lot. I was playing with the Fiction Brothers at "My Father's Place" in Roslyn in the afternoon, and had to head back to Brooklyn to prep for a WR set at the Darco String Band Festival that evening. Everyone decided they would whip up an outfit. The idea was that all of the other bands (predominantly old-time string bands) had the same blue work shirt, vest, and fedora outfits so we wanted to be different.
I didn't have anything prepared, so I ended up in a bathrobe and beret with a Hawaiian-design pair of swimming trunks.
Here's a link to a page on my Web site, and there are some other old gig photos:
web.mac.com/martycutler/Site/O...otos.htmlFeel free to poke around.
Cheers,
Marty
stormoveroklahoma - Posted - 02/06/2010: 09:01:24
quote:
Originally posted by martycutler
quote:
Originally posted by Ira Gitlin
[quote]Originally posted by renofan52
[b]
BTW, Marty, my favorite Wretched Refuse memory was of a show in Dec. 1975 at a church in Greenwich Village, where the whole band was in costume. IIRC, you wore a bathrobe, slippers, and a beret. Matt Glaser was in drag, Bob Jones was a purple-robed wizard, Shulberg was a Hasidic rebbe, etc. I think Ben Freed may have posted some photos of that show somewhere. Got a link to it?
One of my most memorable Wretched Refuse gigs--and that's saying a lot. I was playing with the Fiction Brothers at "My Father's Place" in Roslyn in the afternoon, and had to head back to Brooklyn to prep for a WR set at the Darco String Band Festival that evening. Everyone decided they would whip up an outfit. The idea was that all of the other bands (predominantly old-time string bands) had the same blue work shirt, vest, and fedora outfits so we wanted to be different.
I didn't have anything prepared, so I ended up in a bathrobe and beret with a Hawaiian-design pair of swimming trunks.
Here's a link to a page on my Web site, and there are some other old gig photos:
web.mac.com/martycutler/Site/O...otos.html
Feel free to poke around.
Cheers,
Marty
We used to go to "My Father's Place" when we were in college in the late seventies - early eighties. My roommate is from Roslyn and I lived in Brooklyn for fifteen years.
I saw many a brawl after hours outside of there...a lot of people on Long Island in those days seemed to like to go to the bars to fight....not me. I was only looking for cute women to meet. The fighting seemed to get more intense the closer to Montauk you got.
Small world.
Thanks for the memories Marty.
Storm from Vermont
Back to Pat.
gdoc - Posted - 02/10/2010: 22:35:24
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Hanway
Hey, what did the umpire in baseball say? "I call 'em as I see 'em." LOL
better unpire: "I call em as they are."
best umpire: "they ain't until I call em."
sorry to go off topic, but I couldn't resist.
Tuneager - Posted - 02/16/2010: 12:59:27
What's more, bluegrassers have their own style categories linking right-hand technique to famous players, i.e., "Scruggs Style," "Reno Style" and "Keith Style." Personality linked technique is somehow revealing because nobody really has a market on common string technique. Banjo instruction utilizing accepted music basics such as music theory, sight-reading (as opposed to tablature), and the practice of scales and arpeggios, is virtually nonexistent. These accepted instruction methods are common methods on all other instruments and are the tools and foundations of personal style - not personalities or technique. It's why it could be argued that in terms of instruction, five-string banjo is still at a "folk" instrument level of development and is the reason it is relegated to the "miscellaneous" category of musical instruments.
steve davis - Posted - 02/17/2010: 04:24:19
Wow,this sounds like a big problem,tuneager...what do you
think the solution might be?
Tom Hanway - Posted - 03/06/2010: 21:02:10
Kill the bum (umpire, player, manager, etc.) LOL
No, there's no accounting for other people's ... whatever.
I think bluegrass is ... pretty okay.
Still on or off topic, you're either on the bus, or you're off the bus.
No, that's not it, um,
"Wow,this sounds like a big problem,tuneager...what do you
think the solution might be?" - Steve Davis
Steve, or somebody out there, are you being rhetorical. I mean, rhetorical?
Enquiring minds want to know. Who knew?
Okay, then, who?
Tom Hanway - Posted - 03/06/2010: 21:05:49
God bless Pat Cloud and his music. Music loves him.
Tom Hanway - Posted - 03/06/2010: 21:16:44
God, it's good to hear banjo players pick.
steve davis - Posted - 03/07/2010: 05:16:25
Rhetorical...well,yes as in not expecting an answer,but more sarcasm,I guess,directed
at tuneager for suggesting that banjo players are at some kind of lower level
of musical expression because of the way they learned to choose the next note.
I have a foundation in playing by ear which I learned from my parents,friends
and tab. I do know how to sight read rhythm notation,which has helped me
immensely in sight-reading tablature.
There are thousands of different ways to learn how to play music...one's just
as viable as the other,imo.
A note played is a note played and people don't care how you learned it,as
long as it sounds good.
pearcemusic - Posted - 03/07/2010: 05:54:12
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Hanway
Kill the bum (umpire, player, manager, etc.) LOL
No, there's no accounting for other people's ... whatever.
I think bluegrass is ... pretty okay.
Still on or off topic, you're either on the bus, or you're off the bus.
No, that's not it, um,
"Wow,this sounds like a big problem,tuneager...what do you
think the solution might be?" - Steve Davis
Steve, or somebody out there, are you being rhetorical. I mean, rhetorical?
Enquiring minds want to know. Who knew?
Okay, then, who?
with a point, but very funny, me thinks Tom be is.
Banjophobic - Posted - 03/07/2010: 17:33:55
quote:
Originally posted by Tuneager
What's more, bluegrassers have their own style categories linking right-hand technique to famous players, i.e., "Scruggs Style," "Reno Style" and "Keith Style." Personality linked technique is somehow revealing because nobody really has a market on common string technique. Banjo instruction utilizing accepted music basics such as music theory, sight-reading (as opposed to tablature), and the practice of scales and arpeggios, is virtually nonexistent. These accepted instruction methods are common methods on all other instruments and are the tools and foundations of personal style - not personalities or technique. It's why it could be argued that in terms of instruction, five-string banjo is still at a "folk" instrument level of development and is the reason it is relegated to the "miscellaneous" category of musical instruments.
This too, is another 'cut and paste' reply to a thread, since Ive seen this reply before too. Its clear to me that Tuneager types out canned replies and pastes them to threads, whether of not they have any signifcant correlation to the topic at hand.
This one, imo, is pure "hooey".....
Tom Hanway - Posted - 03/07/2010: 23:10:38
quote:
Originally posted by Banjophobic
quote:
Originally posted by Tuneager
What's more, bluegrassers have their own style categories linking right-hand technique to famous players, i.e., "Scruggs Style," "Reno Style" and "Keith Style." Personality linked technique is somehow revealing because nobody really has a market on common string technique. Banjo instruction utilizing accepted music basics such as music theory, sight-reading (as opposed to tablature), and the practice of scales and arpeggios, is virtually nonexistent. These accepted instruction methods are common methods on all other instruments and are the tools and foundations of personal style - not personalities or technique. It's why it could be argued that in terms of instruction, five-string banjo is still at a "folk" instrument level of development and is the reason it is relegated to the "miscellaneous" category of musical instruments.
This too, is another 'cut and paste' reply to a thread, since Ive seen this reply before too. Its clear to me that Tuneager types out canned replies and pastes them to threads, whether of not they have any signifcant correlation to the topic at hand.
This one, imo, is pure "hooey".....
Agreed, it's like baiting and trolling your own thread with a canned rant. I see the broad point he's trying to make about bluegrass banjo instruction, though I disagree with the feeble (straw man) form of argument limited to right-hand technique, and yet this incipient screed is tantamount to off-topic spamming of one's own thread. How odd and silly it is to hijack one's own thread away from the relevant topic.
Scruggs style, by the way, cuts through the "hooey" regarding what is considered bluegrass banjo style and technique. Scruggs is the commonly accepted standard and brings bluegrass with it wherever it goes.
But why did he bring up this non-issue, a straw "homunculus" - not even a straw man, when his thread title is Jazz, Bebop, and Pat Cloud. I have a fair idea where this redundant baiting is tending. Thank you very next...!
DNFTTs
Edited by - Tom Hanway on 03/08/2010 04:13:31
Laurence Diehl - Posted - 03/08/2010: 10:11:52
You may not agree with Charlie, but he does seem to have provoked a very spirited - and I think useful - discussion here. Maybe that's what he intended...or maybe not.
Laurence
Tom Hanway - Posted - 03/09/2010: 01:15:27
quote:
Originally posted by Laurence Diehl
You may not agree with Charlie, but he does seem to have provoked a very spirited - and I think useful - discussion here. Maybe that's what he intended...or maybe not.
Laurence
Laurence, you are more than fair in your assessment of the provocative ideas introduced here by Charlie - it's almost as if he's playing devil's advocate, but I think not. I detect a motivation, and maybe I'm wrong, but I'm going with my gut.
Charlie (Tuneager) may be stirring things up deliberately, or not - it's moot - but he's cutting and pasting the same diatribe from thread to thread, distracting and detracting from his own thread here. Also, his message tends to besmirch dedicated bluegrass banjo players who take style and technique very seriously. It's not even worth debating. You don't have to go that far and I wonder if it's misguided loyalty or reverence for Pat Cloud. Pat Cloud doesn't need that kind of help. NFW!
But again, to answer his pointed assertions:
Scruggs style, by the way, cuts through the "hooey" regarding what is considered bluegrass banjo style and technique. Scruggs is the commonly accepted standard and brings bluegrass with it wherever it goes.
Edited by - Tom Hanway on 03/09/2010 01:30:46
pearcemusic - Posted - 03/21/2010: 12:22:24
I finally found the missing page from my 1980 lesson with Pat .... still challenges me today.
the first 3 pages from a prior post
pg 2
pg3
Edited by - pearcemusic on 03/21/2010 12:27:07
beegee - Posted - 03/21/2010: 14:54:55
It hurts my head just to read it.....
Tom Hanway - Posted - 03/23/2010: 23:16:06
Is this trigonometry or Kabbalah?
SOH-CAH-TOA
pearcemusic - Posted - 03/24/2010: 06:05:01
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Hanway
Is this trigonometry or Kabbalah?
SOH-CAH-TOA
I was so overwhelmed when I got these pages in 1980 ... it made NO sense to me at all. I stopped playing the banjo for a while ... it became too much work.
So I focused on playing bass .... unfortunately, all of those music principles apply there as well ... so .....
Now ... 20 years later ... I understand everything he was teaching me.
I actually use it !!! .... EVEN IN BLUEGRASS (sometimes) !!!
It was a great study that FORCED me to dig in .... some of it still tweaks my head, but I get it ... I guess.
pearcemusic - Posted - 03/25/2010: 05:47:27
Pat's new book ... due out in May
should be really good !!!
Ronnie Ramin - Posted - 03/25/2010: 08:17:06
I look forward to his new book. I had his first one, before it was picked up by Mel Bay. I loved it, still do. I corrected typos and such in the Tab. Very interesting material, I've been looking forward to this one for a while.
Ronnie
Mirek Patek - Posted - 03/26/2010: 02:32:51
It is off-topic, but I would like to understand the logic behind chosen cover picture. Is it the product placement of aluminium-rim banjo? Is it Pat's endorsement? The missing hook is intentional?
And I hope that the title will not misquide 4-string banjo players.
(I am sure the content will be great.)
Mirek
Tom Hanway - Posted - 03/26/2010: 03:03:33
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Hanway
quote:
Originally posted by pearcemusic
Pat's new book ... due out in May
should be really good !!!
AWESOME! Why is there space and time?
Musical principles of this order go way beyond instrument and style in Western music, though they may not have universal applications, especially if a system or style of music is not so concerned with chords, harmony and homophony.
Pat's book, the inner contents, I'm sure are enlightening and expansive. DNFTT. Definitely.
The included CD and additional FREE audio music files should also prove illuminating and eminently helpful. DNFTT.
banjopaolo - Posted - 03/26/2010: 03:05:19
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Hanway
Is this trigonometry or Kabbalah?
SOH-CAH-TOA
Well dear friends, it is simply the Abc of tonal jazz improvisation, if you like Charlie Parker and Miles Davis that's what you have to learn....
Tom Hanway - Posted - 03/26/2010: 14:36:54
Who knew? I wonder if Louis Armstrong or Roy Eldridge ever cared to study this stuff on paper. Or a lot of the great jazz musicians.
Roy was the link from Satchmo to Dizzy.
Go here to hear him blow:
youtube.com/watch?v=zctXjgd_LeQ
Do that on a banjo - on second thought, buy Pat's book....
LOL
Edited by - Tom Hanway on 03/26/2010 14:53:00
pearcemusic - Posted - 03/26/2010: 16:03:44
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Hanway
Who knew? I wonder if Louis Armstrong or Roy Eldridge ever cared to study this stuff on paper. Or a lot of the great jazz musicians.
Roy was the link from Satchmo to Dizzy.
Go here to hear him blow:
youtube.com/watch?v=zctXjgd_LeQ
Do that on a banjo - on second thought, buy Pat's book....
LOL
yep ... couldn't agree more ...
this stuff isn't for everybody ... I love satch .... and all the guys who kicked off this whole crazy jazz thing.
but ... the thing about American jazz that is amazing to me is how QUICKLY it evolved from ragtime and blues to full blown avant garde and beyond.
the study of advanced harmony is ... IMO the "portal" that we get to look thru to understand the sounds that bird, dizzy, and coltrane et al made.
bach was the "coltrane" of his time, and we still use academic structures to understand what he did back then ....
the study of modern harmony is just a newer set of structures that help us see the music of those early jazz geniuses (or is it genii? ... Tom? ... ).
I'm still working on getting those sounds to be 2nd nature ... so that I no longer think about them in an academic way ... hopefully I'll get some of it before they plant me for good
Tom Hanway - Posted - 03/27/2010: 04:47:26
quote:
Originally posted by pearcemusic
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Hanway
Who knew? I wonder if Louis Armstrong or Roy Eldridge ever cared to study this stuff on paper. Or a lot of the great jazz musicians.
Roy was the link from Satchmo to Dizzy.
Go here to hear him blow:
youtube.com/watch?v=zctXjgd_LeQ
Do that on a banjo - on second thought, buy Pat's book....
LOL
yep ... couldn't agree more ...
this stuff isn't for everybody ... I love satch .... and all the guys who kicked off this whole crazy jazz thing.
but ... the thing about American jazz that is amazing to me is how QUICKLY it evolved from ragtime and blues to full blown avant garde and beyond.
the study of advanced harmony is ... IMO the "portal" that we get to look thru to understand the sounds that bird, dizzy, and coltrane et al made.
bach was the "coltrane" of his time, and we still use academic structures to understand what he did back then ....
the study of modern harmony is just a newer set of structures that help us see the music of those early jazz geniuses (or is it genii? ... Tom? ... ).
I'm still working on getting those sounds to be 2nd nature ... so that I no longer think about them in an academic way ... hopefully I'll get some of it before they plant me for good
Doub, I'm into it, studying both from written and aural/oral sources. I still think playing by ear and using one's is at the heart of playing music in an ensemble format with sensitivity and true genius. There are so many copycats out there not listening to their inner muse, playing by rote, imitating ... but not listening anymore.
Pre-fabricated inspiration....
I think there are cultural and subcultural issues at work here, especially when it comes to playing jazz and being in inner circles/outer circles.
Horn players still rule in my book, but I grew up with a jazz-trumpet-playing dad.
Think Sly for transcendence - I know it ain't jazz:
Don't call me n....., w.....,
Don't call me w....., n......
Or this, to remember where this stuff comes from:
Ain't Misbehavin'
Lyrics by Andy Razaf
Music by Thomas "Fats" Waller and Harry Brooks
No one to talk with,
All by myself,
No one to walk with,
But I'm happy on the shelf
Ain't misbehavin',
I'm savin' my love for you
I know for certain,
The one I love,
I through with flirtin',
It's just you I'm thinkin' of.
Ain't misbehavin',
I'm savin' my love for you
Like Jack Horner in the corner
Don't go no where,
What do I care,
Your kisses are worth waitin' for
Be-lieve me
I don't stay out late,
Don't care to go,
I'm home about eight,
Just me and my radio
Ain't misbehavin',
I'm savin' my love for you.
Note: Even the walls have ears!
LOL
Edited by - Tom Hanway on 03/27/2010 04:50:33
pearcemusic - Posted - 03/27/2010: 07:00:06
quote:
[i]
Ain't Misbehavin'
Lyrics by Andy Razaf
Music by Thomas "Fats" Waller and Harry Brooks
No one to talk with,
All by myself,
No one to walk with,
But I'm happy on the shelf
Ain't misbehavin',
I'm savin' my love for you
I know for certain,
The one I love,
I through with flirtin',
It's just you I'm thinkin' of.
Ain't misbehavin',
I'm savin' my love for you
Like Jack Horner in the corner
Don't go no where,
What do I care,
Your kisses are worth waitin' for
Be-lieve me
I don't stay out late,
Don't care to go,
I'm home about eight,
Just me and my radio
Ain't misbehavin',
I'm savin' my love for you.
Note: Even the walls have ears!
LOL
love that tune ...
copycats bore me ... and I don't enjoy listening to people re-gurgitate lines that they've learned ... that goes for jazz ... OR BLUEGRASS !!
conversely ... there's nothing better than hearing someone do something with a brand new sound to it ...
I am basically an ear player.
I spent a professional playing career not understanding what I was hearing.
When I studied .. it all jelled .... it started to become clear.
Then my ear playing really began to be responsive and more creative ... in jazzier (or even pop) settings, I was able to respond to what I heard other players doing in a more spontaneous way.
I had to force myself to study .... the pay back was way more than I expected.
That's why I encourage players who are curious (like I was) to dig in and learn as much as possible .... all the time applying it to the instrument ... so that they can use it in a musical way.
bird, dizzy, coltrane, davis .... et al ...
those guys brought in some sounds that I'm still learning ...
I'm not a jazzer, but the sounds intrigue me enough to want to know what they are doing and how they got there.
What surprised me when I learned about those guys was this ....
I assumed they just fell into it .... they just made it all up creatively.
Kind of a natural thing ....
What I found out was this ...
they all were HARD studiers ... very educated ..
Speaking of trumpet players ... Dizzy was a great teacher ... forced guys to learn those harmony basics ... at least that's what I heard.
Coltrane practiced incessantly ... his son Ravi told me that's a main memory of his dad.
I'm sure others know way more than I do about these figures than I do ...
all that to say ... long winded aren't I?
the study means nothing if it isn't based in musicality.
inspiration ... dedication ....
and jazz is only one piece of the musical pie ...
KANINJACK - Posted - 06/04/2010: 07:27:47
I just got introduced to Pat Cloud's music last week, I guess I've been in the dark for the last couple of years. Amazing.
pearcemusic - Posted - 06/04/2010: 09:36:07
I know this has been stated before ... Pat teaches skype lessons. My daughter Molly takes from him. He is so very generous with his expertise ... he gives you an incredible amount for the money ... a real value.
Going thru the book with Pat as the teacher would be awesome.
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