bigal37 - Posted - 10/27/2009:  05:46:36

No matter where I put the bridge or how much or little relief in the neck or how high or low the action... when I fret the 3rd string it goes sharp. I have a RK-85. Could anyone give me advise on what I can try?


Alan

Emiel - Posted - 10/27/2009:  05:59:52

Third string intonation problems are pretty normal for banjos... Compensate by playing, pulling the string. Or try a compensated bridge.

Emiel

http://www.flickr.com/photos/emieldk/
http://www.bluerounders.com

Pepper Laing - Posted - 10/27/2009:  06:06:17

It does seem to be a problem many people have, and I have too, and from day to day with temp/humidity it changes. When I was really having the problem tho it was my tail piece was loose and moving slightly. Also your nut could be to high. Have you changed string guages lately?

www.myspace.com/pepperlaingt...nestarkillers

JIMBO53 - Posted - 10/27/2009:  06:38:00

It's pretty much an inherent condition of the beast. The Moon curved bridge addresses the problem as well as a number of compensated bridges. I've even seen nuts compensated at the third string, too. Not sure what the technical acousti-sonic scientific explanation is, but it sure can be irritating.

"Life Has Been Easier On Me Than Any Lazy Person Like Myself Has The Right To Expect"-Pete Seeger

Glenn Tate - Posted - 10/27/2009:  06:48:09

Are you tuning with a tuner? If so, try to tune the 3rd string just a few cents flat. Not enough to sound bad, but just a little. If I tune any of my banjos and even my Martin D-28 exactly to what the tuner says, they will not fret out true. There is a little wiggle room on tuning a string a little flat, so it won't fret out sharp.

"The more you know, the more you kmow you don't know."

Glenn

roy.carpenter - Posted - 10/27/2009:  06:53:47

I had the same problem on all my banjos (I've owned 6 so far) and my mandola. My solution was to

1. check the action and adjust the coordinator rods accordingly. I've been staying away from the truss rod since I broke the one on my 12 string.

2. Verify the position of the bridge.

2. Check that the problem is more serious up toward the head stock.

3. Buy a nice piece of beef for a stew with a nice big bone in it, cook the stew, eat the stew, keep the bone, dry it out.

4. Cut the bone to the shape of a nut.

5. Check the action according to this site:

http://www.frets.com/FRETSpages/Mus...taction.html

6. Cut the slots in my new bone nut according to the frets.com advice and it's usually a lot better.

I found that almost every factory set up fretted instrument has the slots in the nut cut way too high. Often the distance between the nut and the first fret is too long as well, so I reposition the nut by filing the top of the fretboard slightly.

It's a real pain in gallipsie any way you look at it though. If you start playing with the slot depth on the nuts, it involves filing, restringing, testing, filing, restringing, testing, over and over, until you realize you filed too much and you have to get a new nut and start the process over. That said, I've managed to resolve that problem - or at least improve it a lot - on all my instruments. Good luck Alan.


Roy Carpenter

And to think of all the time I wasted not playing the banjo...

Edited by - roy.carpenter on 10/27/2009 06:54:52

grm405 - Posted - 10/27/2009:  07:31:17

Your nut slots are too high. You don't have to make a new nut, just file the slots deeper. The other problem might be too heavy of a string. The heavier the string, the more it is sharpened when fretted. I use a .012-.013 third and have little to no problem with sharp 3rd strings.

My OME will fret a few cents sharp (2-3, which is the smallest movement of the digital needle) on the first fret, and within tuner error the rest of the way up. Considering the smallest marking on my tuner is +- 5 cents, that is an insignificant error.

This topic comes up every couple of days. Almost always the answer is likely the same as almost all banjos come with nut slots which are too high. The reason is that it is easy to cut the slots deeper and a lot harder to make them less deep. Manufacturers err on the side of caution. Placing the bridge or a compensated bridge will make the intonation correct at the 12th fret but does little at the first fret. Problems there usually are in the nut slots.

Gerry

BanjoSKP

roy.carpenter - Posted - 10/27/2009:  07:37:33

See? Told ya.

Though I would add that, while I bow to Gerry's wisdom, it's FUN to make a new nut. You can then tell people, "See that there nut? I made it myself."

But that's good advice about the string guage. Counter intuitional, as they say. You'd think the heaver the string, the more it would resist. Weird but good to know.



Roy Carpenter

And to think of all the time I wasted not playing the banjo...

5stringypsy - Posted - 10/27/2009:  07:51:56

Yes, this issue has about drove me to seek counseling Lots of good advice here and I can attest to some of it. I had this issue with all 3 of my banjos I've owned and finaly got the guts to take my nut files and slot saws and do as I had read and guess what.. it worked! (except for the 3rd string but it is tollerably workable now.)
The nut on my current banjo, which I have recently aquired, was set up and dressed already and there is still the most minute of variance on the 3rd string, I'm really happy with it. I have tried allot of different bridges and the compensated bridges help allot but for some reason, and this may not be true for everyone, I decided to try just a standard old thin top bridge (allot of them I notice are a little thicker on top and you can cut the slots to slant back etc. etc, thats another topic) but the old style skinny top bridge worked better correcting this for me than anything, or at least getting it closer. Just play around with it. I've accepted the fact that it's part of banjo life to have that string be an intonal problem (it's what I get for makin fun of banjo players for years for "not being able to keep that stupid thing in tune" lol..)

HIKE FASTER I hear a banjo...

I failed to mention that my biggest problem was when I capo'd and doin the neck relief, nut and bridge knocked the problem out 100% cept the 3rd string, which is tollerable now at least.

Edited by - 5stringypsy on 10/27/2009 07:54:11

farmer bob - Posted - 10/27/2009:  08:26:32

I build my own banjos and also suffered with intonation problems I blamed it on my own design flaws until I started making compensated bridges. Simply moving the third string bridge section forward 1/8" or so solved the problem. Man oh man those banjos sound great!. I can now play up and down the fretboard and stay in tune. Bad intonation is like walking with a stone in your shoe fix it or you will go crazy... Bob.

JW - Posted - 10/27/2009:  11:06:06

I had the same problem a couple of years ago on my RB-250. I tried all the tricks mentioned and ended up putting an Arthur Hatfield compensated bridge on.
I haven't had an issue with it since.

John
91' Gibson RB-250
(Greg Rich Era)

steve davis - Posted - 10/27/2009:  11:12:01

I make my own compensated bridge which fine tunes all the strings.

Alan says that no matter where he puts the bridge the 3rd string frets
sharp,but you can move the bridge too near the tailpiece and the 3rd string will fret flat.
Of course the other strings will fret more flat than the 3rd.

Prof - Posted - 10/27/2009:  12:12:09

I have a Hatfield compensated bridge, but my 3rd string still frets sharp, particularly at the 4th fret (and not much a problem further up the neck). Could this be an issue with truss rod adjustment???

Dan

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I've got it made in the shade if the tree don't fall...

Edited by - Prof on 10/27/2009 12:13:05

steve davis - Posted - 10/27/2009:  12:14:40

Move the bridge toward the tailpiece until the 3rd string doesn't fret sharp.

Prof - Posted - 10/27/2009:  13:46:12

Steve, would that be the case even if the other strings are ok?

Dan

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I've got it made in the shade if the tree don't fall...

The Old Timer - Posted - 10/27/2009:  18:08:25

I've had this problem on all my Gibsons, including ones with conversion necks. I learned something here from the discussion of the nut slot depth, I'll try that out.

What I wanted to mention though, is, I think it has something to do with Gibson fret spacing. The banjo I have with the LEAST intonation problem on the 3rd string is the 67 Vega Earl Scruggs model. With no fussing at all, it has the best overall intonation, of 6 other Gibsons I've had.

That said, I've learned to just "live with it", tune the 3rd string a bit flat, and just don't play a lot of notes on the 3rd string that sustain. Learn to get off of that 3rd string fast when you're fretting it! Don't let it play in unison with the same note from other strings.

The Old Timer

I can win the attention of most any girl, wherever I may roam -- But singing and playing on a banjo alone, won't work against a trombone! Uncle Dave

roy.carpenter - Posted - 10/27/2009:  23:48:00

Just another thought: aside from coordinator rod adjustment, compensated bridge, and nut slot depth, there's also the way you play, pressing down very hard. I know Earl has said that it's best to try to pick lightly with the right hand instead of digging in and plucking hard. I think the same may apply to the left hand. I know when I started off and wasn't sure about my fingering, I tended to press down very hard, whereas now I seem to be able to use a much lighter touch and thus bend the note a lot less. I mean bend it by pressing straight down, not choking it.

I wonder if anybody here has an opinion about fret height. I've also been known to file my frets down a bit, though the result isn't as dramatic as adjusting the nut slots.

Roy Carpenter

And to think of all the time I wasted not playing the banjo...

Glenn Tate - Posted - 10/28/2009:  07:25:53

I would say that the higher the frets are, the lighter you need to hold your chords. Pushing down too hard will pull them out of tune. I have a Recording King RK-85. It is a great banjo, but it requires a light touch on setting the capo and in holding chords.

"The more you know, the more you know you don't know."

Glenn

steve davis - Posted - 10/28/2009:  09:19:02

When I used a straight bridge I would move the bridge toward the tailpiece to help the 3rd string at the expense of a "right on" 4th and 5th string.
They would fret a little flat,but I like a little flatness in the harmony of a chord.

I can't stand sharp notes.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Prof

Steve, would that be the case even if the other strings are ok?

Dan

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I've got it made in the shade if the tree don't fall...

---

Prof - Posted - 10/29/2009:  05:15:41

Perhaps I moved it a bit too much, because whatever song I was playing sounded ok on the lower half of the neck, but the shave and a hair cut was un-pleasingly flat. I guess I just figure something else must be going on since I have a compensated bridge and still have some sharpness in that string.

Dan

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I've got it made in the shade if the tree don't fall...

tomberghan - Posted - 10/29/2009:  07:53:42

What is the vibrating string length (where you have the bridge now) and what gauge string do you have on there now? (Just the 3rd string)

Edited by - tomberghan on 10/29/2009 07:55:03

Prof - Posted - 10/29/2009:  09:36:49

I'm at work now, so I'm not sure of the vibrating length measurement (it's back in the original position), but the 3rd string's a 13.

Dan

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I've got it made in the shade if the tree don't fall...

Edited by - Prof on 10/29/2009 09:38:17

tomberghan - Posted - 10/29/2009:  11:25:15

Hi Dan,
Personally I suspect that is your problem. The string is too light for the mensur at that pitch. For a string to produce a stable pitch (specific pitch) it must have a requisite mass (weight/density) and elasticity. (Science not opinion)

You are using light gauge strings (very problematic). Now, a lot of banjoists don’t mind the behavior of such a light plain steel string, but, the short story is that a 0.013 plain steel string is not stable at that mensur. After you strike the string, the string will start out sharp, then, the pitch will fall. But it depends on how long the mensur is (the vibrating string length). This is the main reason why a 9 foot grand piano sounds better than a spinet. So, the problem you are having is that after you strike the string you are not sure where the pitch is because it changes and that is bothering you.

Like I say, it doesn’t bother many people.

It bothers me, so I use a much heavier strings. Actually I use an 0.018 wound for my third and it is absolutely stable. But, it has much more mass and elasticity than your 0.013 plain steel string has.

Stop by the ol' music store on your way home from work and pick up a pack of heavier strings or just a couple of singles and experiment. You will see for yourself.

And, when you use heavier gauges you can get away with a little lower action. So try the strings first before raising the action.

Edited by - tomberghan on 10/29/2009 13:14:54

Prof - Posted - 10/29/2009:  12:19:12

Interesting -- I thought I had heard that the lighter strings would be less prone to sharping since they are more elastic than heavier gauges.

Dan

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I've got it made in the shade if the tree don't fall...

steve davis - Posted - 10/29/2009:  12:32:22

I just thought of something,Dan.
If the compensated bridge were on backwards there would be no way
that you could tune it correctly.

If you know your way around things like that,please disregard.

Edited by - steve davis on 10/29/2009 13:30:23

tomberghan - Posted - 10/29/2009:  13:50:14

>>>I thought I had heard that the lighter strings would be less prone to sharping since they are more elastic than heavier gauges.<<<

Elasticity is only one part of the equation. Mass is the other big one here. Your 0.013 lacks enough mass for that pitch and mensur. If you don’t have enough mass then you don’t get a stable pitch (the problem you may have now). In the first place, a plain steel string is not very elastic. A gut string is much more elastic, and if we keep going in this direction, a rubber band is even more elastic, but will sound like cow manure because it lacks enough mass (at that pitch, at that mensur).

At a fixed mensur, the lower you go in pitch, you eventually have to use a wound string, or different material (or get a longer banjo (longer mensur). So, you can’t just use a big ol’ fat plain steel string because it will just go “Doink” instead if “Boooong.” Anyway, at that mensur and that pitch, you are on the borderline of getting a plain steel string to be stable and have a “musical quality.”

This is a major reason why banjoists often complain about the 3rd string.
Mensur, pitch, mass, elasticity, resonance . . . it is physics

About the compensated bridge thing . . . it won’t help a string that is not stable. Readers are warned not to confuse stability with intonation.

Where exactly does the problem start? Open string? (Then THAT is a stability problem) First few frets? (Again, probably stability) Or, way up the neck? (If that, then the problem is intonation and maybe a compensated or Moon-style-bridge would help)

I would have to be there to determine if your third was not stable versus having intonation problems. If it were me I would try a heavier gauge string first. It is an inexpensive and quick experiment.

Of course there are a lot of famous Bluegrass banjoists that use light gauge strings and many of their third strings are not stable, but they play so fast you don’t really notice it. Also, some banjos have tone rings, of course, and different styles of tone rings, and when a banjo really gets “ringing” like a bell, then the instability of a the third string gets masked somewhat.

Like I say, sometimes it just depends on how finicky one’s ear are. (I did not say accurate, I said finicky).

Refer to this article by Don Zepp
http://www.zeppmusic.com/bridgeset.htm

Edited by - tomberghan on 10/29/2009 17:49:50

farmer bob - Posted - 10/29/2009:  14:06:21

If you go to my homepage photo's. I posted a photo of a compensated bridge I made to offset the problem with the third string. The bridge only compensates for the third string... Bob.