There are, but original five-string flat heads intact tend to pass quietly through dealers or collectors. So if you are a serious six-figure buyer and you want one, let the dealers/collectors know.

I think it also needs to be pointed out that back in the 20's and 30's, there simply was no demand for five string banjos. The music which that instrument became synonymous with hadn't come along yet! So it's hard for us to understand today, but the tenor banjo WAS the hot instrument of those days; much like the guitar is the hot instrument, the instrument that everyone plays, is today. So therefore the manufacturers of banjos probably made upwards of 95% of the banjos as tenor, and plectrum banjos. I will also point out that it seems to be increasingly common for people converting banjos today to NOT have a tone ring installed, in the sub mastertone banjos, such as style 00, 1, 2, 10 and 11. Quite often, even the original mastertone models, such as style 3, 4, granada, that were originally an archtop configuration - are converted to a flathead but the rim is NOT cut; rather - a "no cut low profile flathead" tone ring is installed. What I'm getting at is people are becoming less eager to modify an original prewar banjo in such a manner that it can't "be put back" like it was. As far as other parts being changed - for instance the flange, tension hoop, tailpiece, etc., - those original parts can, and do fail; that is - break, warp or simply reach a point they don't do the job they were intended to do. Is there a mind set mystique going on with those banjo? Probably!! But, is there something real going on with those instruments? NO doubt there is!

wairahi,

You have to treat this like a pathological disease spectrum. There’s a pre-war authenticity spectrum. Where the instrument is on the spectrum is determined by the quantity and importance of the original components that are part of the instrument. The value of the instrument is usually commensurate with where it is on the spectrum.

If you are looking for a prewar original flathead with an original five string neck well… Good luck! If you find it I can’t immagine the price ;-)

banjopaolo,

You don't have to imagine what the prices might be; they're often listed. Below is a link to an original RB-3 that's available from Steve Huber.  It's on the high end of the authenticity spectrum.

Original Pre-war Gibson RB-3

Your question is a good one Horace, and it has been debated nearly endlessly here on BHO. "What is original anyway?" Check the archives for an eye-watering "spectrum" of opinions (good word from Wayne). It's just like the age-old question "What is bluegrass anyway?"

What matters in the end is what YOU want and what YOU can afford. Read all the ads you see anywhere with a sharp eye and discrimination (and a good memory) to educate yourself. Compare these points with asking prices. For instance many of the tension hoops and one piece flanges from circa 1929/30ALL had poor metallurgy and were VERY subject to breakage and/or disintegration until Gibson's supplier got the metallurgy worked up in the early 1930s. So it's not unusual for this period of banjos to have replaced tension hoops and one piece flanges. They are not original. They might be original pre-war though. You'll see how asking prices are affected. You ask yourself just where did these prewar parts come from? They might even be post-war, from the same maker as prewar. How do YOU value those?

An ALL ORIGINAL 1925-29 RB 3 is going to have an asking price maybe $20,000 more than a TB or PB 3 with a modern conversion neck. So is that ORIGINAL banjo neck worth an extra $20,000 to you? Very few buyers care enough to pay an extras $20,000, so why quibble over the definition of original. And the Style 3 banjo was Gibson's most common by a factor of hundreds. The rarer the banjo, the rarer the original neck, and the higher the premium.

What is a more meaningful question in my experience is; has the seller openly and honestly identified all the non-original parts? Do they even know how to do that? You have to suss that all out with educated questions and observations, in conversations/phone calls/emails/videos with the seller. I once bought a prewar Gibson with a conversion neck (plus the original tenor neck) and when I took it apart for some reason I was surprised and disappointed that the tension hoop was not original nor by the correct maker. It had been a month or so since I bought it. I informed the seller, with no rancor nor demands. He said he didn't realize that because he'd never taken the banjo apart, and apologized. Live and learn for me. It's a perfectly fine modern tension hoop, and if I ever sell the banjo it will be clearly identified. It's from 1929 when the early pot metal tension hoops tended to disintegrate -- perhaps that's what happened at some point in its life. I like the banjo just fine.

Just know what you're buying, and know what you're willing to pay. And don't be a sucker. Be sure you get full disclosure.

Anyway I own a perfectly original TB3 (I play also Tenor) archtop tube and plate flange sounds fantastic as a tenor, I guess it would sound great also with a new conversion five string neck… one day maybe I will do it!

My question is this. Where are all the original parts to the pre wars ? Are people stockpiling? You see on here all the time “pre war” banjos for sell but none of or most of the parts are replacement parts from Prucha or different places . Even the pre war arch top tone rings are suddenly be replaced. Those original parts ,tension hoops, hooks, tone rings ect, have to be somewhere.. right ? Conspiracy ??

Will, there are original pre-war arch top tone rings for sale on BHO right now.

Banjo convertors have scores of orphaned tenor and plectrum necks that they can't give away. Jim Mills must have had 50 on display in his shop. I saw a popular neck maker in northern NY who easily had 50 hanging up in his shop.

Broken tension hoops and one piece flanges make for a brisk market in "parted out" banjos that have been abused, in fires, car accidents, floods. leaving some usable parts behind. Especially from non-Mastertones since many of their metal parts are identical with Mastertones.

I will agree that there seem to be a disturbing number of "original pre-war flathead tone rings" that have been horded by some banjo experts. I've always really REALLY wondered how they got orphaned.

I think the prewar woody 5 strings are a bargain.
Such as : banjohangout.org/classified/114612

quote:

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Originally posted by banjopaolo

If you are looking for a prewar original flathead with an original five string neck well… Good luck! If you find it I can’t immagine the price ;-)

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Didn't Jim Mills buy up all those banjos then open his home to allow folks to see and play them?

quote:

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Originally posted by aaronoble

I think the prewar woody 5 strings are a bargain.
Such as : banjohangout.org/classified/114612

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That's a great price!

I saw a '41 Gibson RB-00 (same banjo, decorated differently) at Retrofret in Brooklyn, New York, in fall of 2013 with an asking price of $4,500.

quote:

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Originally posted by Old Hickory

quote:

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Originally posted by aaronoble

I think the prewar woody 5 strings are a bargain.
Such as : banjohangout.org/classified/114612

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That's a great price!

I saw a '41 Gibson RB-00 (same banjo, decorated differently) at Retrofret in Brooklyn, New York, in fall of 2013 with an asking price of $4,500.

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RB-00s have mostly come down from there. None for sale at the moment (except for the perennial one at Grunge for $5k), but they have tended to be priced ~$3500 (with shipping) in recent years. And these tend to be nearly original.

Grunge= Gruhn (autocorrect) in my last comment

Wayne, perhaps you were joking about Jim Mills. He certainly didn't buy "all of them". But if he found good specimens (a particular skill he had developed) and knew there was a market for it/them (another great skill he had), he had ready cash to pay a price he found reasonable (another skill of his) and buy.

He didn't buy them to open a free museum in his home. He ran a serious business. Yes, with an appointment, visitors and browsers could stop in. I'm sure Jim knew that great word-of-mouth came from having visitors. He made an excellent impression with his shop.

The day I visited, he was hosting a potential buyer who had come from Japan to select a banjo.

Jim was a fine businessman.  A class act.

quote:

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Originally posted by The Old Timer

Wayne, perhaps you were joking about Jim Mills. He certainly didn't buy "all of them". But if he found good specimens (a particular skill he had developed) and knew there was a market for it/them (another great skill he had), he had ready cash to pay a price he found reasonable (another skill of his) and buy.

He didn't buy them to open a free museum in his home. He ran a serious business. Yes, with an appointment, visitors and browsers could stop in. I'm sure Jim knew that great word-of-mouth came from having visitors. He made an excellent impression with his shop.

The day I visited, he was hosting a potential buyer who had come from Japan to select a banjo.

Jim was a fine businessman.  A class act.

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Thanks for that Dick.  I was under the impression that be bought up many if not most of the 'famous' ones and held seminars in his house.

He did a few seminars, but you had to pay to attend those.

There's a well known guy from Kentucky who probably owned/sold as many or more old original flat heads than Jim Mills. Also before Jim Mills was Curtis McPeake. And others...

I dont think Jim bought famous banjos. He bought them and made them famous. Ask yourself what were these banjos before Jim bought them....they were unknown. But when Jim got ahold of them, his stellar playing, the tone he pulled out of them, the expertise he shared with all of us about them, and afterwards we all were familiar with them. And he always had good BBQ. Sure miss him.