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Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.banjohangout.org/archive/87988
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wormpicker - Posted - 07/13/2007: 18:55:50
Here's something I just read on Pat C's blog (http://tangiersound.wordpress.com/2...2/community/ )
He quotes a note that someone sent him:
"I (unfortunately), started my research into clawhammer banjo on BanjoHangout.com. At first I though, “Great, people I can learn from”. In reality, what I got was a bunch of arrogant folks talking about how hard banjo is, and will take years to play, and memorize this and that."
Well, I don't want to start up another PC flame fest (PLEASE DON'T). We all know how Patrick feels about us, and that's fine with me. But this quote sure doesn't represent the kind of people and discussion I've seen around here. I think the people at the Hangout are among the friendliest and helpful I've ever known. I guess you can't please them all.
Paul
Obsession is a great substitute for talent. -Steve Martin
Edited by - gottasmilealot on 07/13/2007 19:00:57
Flatlander - Posted - 07/13/2007: 19:16:33
That is one person's opinion I guess but I've found everyone here to be pretty nice.
savzac - Posted - 07/13/2007: 19:53:54
Yeah, I'm a three finger player and I have drifted over looking for advice on the clawhammer forum and ran into a bunch of nice folks! They were real helpful, my brain just can't seem to figure out the technique but I was given plenty of info and friendly advice! So I guess that's two opinions...
BANJOJUDY - Posted - 07/13/2007: 20:01:21
quote:
Originally posted by wormpicker
Here's something I just read on Pat C's blog (http://tangiersound.wordpress.com/2...2/community/ )
He quotes a note that someone sent him:
"I (unfortunately), started my research into clawhammer banjo on BanjoHangout.com. At first I though, “Great, people I can learn from”. In reality, what I got was a bunch of arrogant folks talking about how hard banjo is, and will take years to play, and memorize this and that."
Well, I don't want to start up another PC flame fest (PLEASE DON'T). We all know how Patrick feels about us, and that's fine with me. But this quote sure doesn't represent the kind of people and discussion I've seen around here. I think the people at the Hangout are among the friendliest and helpful I've ever known. I guess you can't please them all.
Paul
Obsession is a great substitute for talent. -Steve Martin
Bill Rogers - Posted - 07/13/2007: 20:02:19
I certainly haven't seen any arrogant treatment of newbies on the clawhammer playing advice forum. In truth, unless you are exceptionally talented, lke, say Adam Hurt, it does take 2 or 3 years to play well, which is usually what people mean when they say "years to play." For sure it's true of OT players on the Hangout that: they (mostly) won't tell you 1) that there's no such thing as talent or 2) that there's only one way to play (or learn to play) old-time banjo (clawhammer or otherwise).
Bill
wormpicker - Posted - 07/13/2007: 20:08:13
quote:
Originally posted by BANJOJUDY
I don't know about PC and his feelings toward the Hangout - can you enlighten me?
Gibson Gangsta - Posted - 07/13/2007: 20:09:30
HE OBVIOUSLY HAS NOT MET OUR VERY OWN "FRAILIN" (Craig).....so your theory "Patrick" is totally shot!!! and maybe this guy can't handle what I like to call BHO BLUNTNESS....which is basically on the BHO you get hit by EVERY opinion....not just the ones you wanna hear.....and yes....banjo is HARD.....god....you tell someone that they are gonna have to practice and dedicate sometime to something all the sudden your a jerk and the BHO sucks.....yup....makes sense......its been one of those days anyway......well I bet "patrick" is really good at clawhammer now.....without our help..... ;)
pickin' aint easy.......
wormpicker - Posted - 07/13/2007: 20:17:16
Please, guys, let's not start. Happy thoughts! ![]()
Paul
Obsession is a great substitute for talent. -Steve Martin
WildJimbo - Posted - 07/13/2007: 20:19:04
Paul,
The "note" looks fabricated to me, but I'm one of those arrogant folks, so what would I know.
Jim Pankey
http://www.wildjimbo.com | http://www.lonemountainband.com | http://www.banjolounge.com
chip arnold - Posted - 07/13/2007: 21:05:03
If a person wants to play like Patrick plays it won't take several years. In fact, as he himself says, he could have you doing it in no time. Ever hear him play? It's just a very basic bum-ditty stroke over chords with a few hammers, pulls etc thrown in. That's all.
Like any creative art form, Old Time banjo styles's can be dabbled in in a simple way or they can be a vehicle carrying you to amazing musical heights.and depths. YMMV
Play with a plan
Chip
Gus Bloch - Posted - 07/13/2007: 21:46:11
Arrogance as the downfall of a musicician is an old tale. Any of us who have been around a while have seen it happen.
This forum is remarkably free of such characters. Folks seem to be helpful, friendly and free of the dreaded inflated ego syndrome.
For this, I am very greatful.
That said, no internet forum can take the place of face time with other musicians in jams, get togethers, lessons and such. It's no substitute for teachers, lesson books, video resources, patience and practice. .
A forum like this is just one of many learning, sharing and entertainment tools that we are so fortunate to have. Having read Patrick's posting,
I get the impression that he was expecting something more than this.
I 'm hoping he comes back, gives it another chance and contributes to the effort.
Don Borchelt - Posted - 07/13/2007: 21:53:00
Well, even one of Pat's own fans scolded him earlier this evening for making digs against the Hangout. Steve, I hope you won't be upset if I quote you here....
"Please, Pat you don’t need to dig at Banjohangout.com There are many folks on that site that think you are fantastic and recommend your teaching over others that teach by rote."
"Not everyone on that site is arrogant and not everyone on the site thinks the same way. Please, realize that there is room for everyone in this old world and you don’t need to dig at them. It’s not a totally Black and White world as you seem to want to make it out to be."
"Remember the Tao."
Back three or four decades ago, game theorists at places like the Rand Corporation and Abt Associates popularized the idea of the "zero sum game." Basically, in a zero sum game, for me to win, you have to lose. Chess is a zero sum game. Some people, perhaps including PC, think life is a zero sum game, too. There can only be one... banjo teacher.
- Don Borchelt
http://www.banjr.com
"Well, I know there's a lotta big preachers that know a lot more than I do
But it could be that the good Lord likes a little pickin' too."
- Tom T. Hall, from The Year That Clayton Delaney Died
Edited by - Don Borchelt on 07/13/2007 22:05:29
mike gregory - Posted - 07/13/2007: 22:10:33
quote:
Originally posted by WildJimbo
Paul,
The "note" looks fabricated to me, but I'm one of those arrogant folks, so what would I know.
Jim Pankey
http://www.wildjimbo.com | http://www.lonemountainband.com | http://www.banjolounge.com

Edited by - mike gregory on 07/13/2007 22:13:06
banjoholic - Posted - 07/13/2007: 22:49:13
quote:
Originally posted by WildJimbo
Paul,
The "note" looks fabricated to me, but I'm one of those arrogant folks, so what would I know.
Jim Pankey
pstroud1 - Posted - 07/13/2007: 23:14:45
Oh no and I just went over there and asked for some chords cause it was a CH song.
Now I'm in deep spit.![]()
![]()
Paul
The BellyCaster - Posted - 07/13/2007: 23:33:12
quote:
Originally posted by chip arnold
If a person wants to play like Patrick plays it won't take several years. In fact, as he himself says, he could have you doing it in no time. Ever hear him play? It's just a very basic bum-ditty stroke over chords with a few hammers, pulls etc thrown in. That's all.
Like any creative art form, Old Time banjo styles's can be dabbled in in a simple way or they can be a vehicle carrying you to amazing musical heights.and depths. YMMV
Play with a plan
Chip
Edited by - The BellyCaster on 07/14/2007 00:36:43
wormpicker - Posted - 07/13/2007: 23:51:41
quote:
Originally posted by The BellyCaster
This topic is scaring me just a bit. The discussion can't go anywhere constructive.
quote:
Pat may have confused this characteristic of brilliant folks with arrogance.
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 07/14/2007: 00:07:37
I say get what you can from Pat's books, lessons and website, but ignore his problems concerning dealing with people. I know he has been thrown off the clawhammer forum several times for "flaming" and have seen one of those events myself. (the only thread I ever saw get "Locked" on the clawhammer forum).
Pat is obviously only able to deal with people he perceives as looking up to him - not anyone he views as an equal. He certainly is more than willing to help beginners, and can teach anyone a fair amount about folk banjo.
The Whiskey Before Breakfast variations and "F" tuning tabs are now available on the web at: http://home.thegrid.net/~fjbrad/id20.html
There are mp3s of G tunes in F tuning on the web at http://www.box.net/shared/p06kzxt5lv
Rocket Science banjo is on youtube now. Here are the addresses:
Lesson 1 The Basic Stroke
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdRuf4X0X7g
Lesson 2 Drop Thumb
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7gmyrlvtS0
Lesson 3 The Big Cluck
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jy2iCyrsqr0
Julie Anne Johnson
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGonhCTQKfM
wormpicker - Posted - 07/14/2007: 00:16:29
quote:
Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb
I say get what you can from Pat's books...
stanger - Posted - 07/14/2007: 00:44:22
Hi, Paul...
Nope. I haven't seen much arrogance here, but there are lots of opinions. Like GG said, some folks are blunt, too. Participating on this forum requires some head changes for folks, because the BHO is the first place lots of people are exposed to confilicting opinions. Some topics reach consensus, some don't- but all of us learn it's not at all as cut and dried as was once thought.
I understand your frustration, but in this case, it is impossible to seperate the man from the discussion.
I don't know if you have spent much time on other banjo forum websites, or on the newsgroup alt.banjo, but all are very familiar with him, and he's been this way since he first showed up on the internet about 1998 on all of them- BanloL, alt.banjo, you name it.
I'm not bashing the guy, but it's best to leave him in peace in his own corner of the internet. He simply can't play in anyone else's sandbox, but he plays nice in his own. I don't take any of his remarks on others seriously, and neither should you.
regards,
Stanger
"Sometimes I like green shade, and sometimes I like dry shade"
wormpicker - Posted - 07/14/2007: 01:07:25
quote:
Originally posted by stanger
I don't know if you have spent much time on other banjo forum websites, or on the newsgroup alt.banjo, but all are very familiar with him...
BConk - Posted - 07/14/2007: 07:15:00
quote:
Originally posted by wormpicker
My sole reason for posting it was to point out a viewpoint that was completely contrary to anything I've observed in the clawhammer forum (and to compliment the people in the clawhammer forum)
Paul

banjomon - Posted - 07/14/2007: 08:16:41
I say - Consider the source!
Pick It Loud - Pick It Proud
RK-R80 #21
Don Borchelt - Posted - 07/14/2007: 08:53:40
BConk wrote: " I'm with Wild Jimbo and others here in that I think PC himself may have fabricated the comment to suit his needs."
My thoughts are in that direction as well. I have been suspicious about this before, on alt.banjo.
http://www.banjr.com
"Well, I know there's a lotta big preachers that know a lot more than I do
But it could be that the good Lord likes a little pickin' too."
- Tom T. Hall, from The Year That Clayton Delaney Died
jakeyvimto - Posted - 07/14/2007: 09:11:27
I feel for you Paul. You wont start another thread like this in a hurry, eh?
I like PC, and it was through his old site I found here.
All banjar = all good.
Time to go practice. Play nice everyone!
they just gave me the number when I was young...
XXXris - Posted - 07/14/2007: 11:18:28
i have found the exact opposite of arrogance on BHO. on the other hand (in contrast to many of the posts here) i have to admit that i enjoy reading an occasional flame fest. i'm glad that isn't the mood of the whole site, but i always read a locked topic when i see one.... (don't you?)
chris
Banjoitus - Posted - 07/14/2007: 11:59:44
When I started playing the banjo, a man who later softened his tone told me I was too old to learn to play. After he gave me an informal lesson and I picked up everything he showed me, he apologized and said I was the first newbie who ever actually listened to what he said during a lesson. A case of the archer not the arrow maybe.
At Victorville this year Cia Holmes offered that she closeted herself and played about 8 to 10 hours a day, and learned to play well enough to get by on stage in 8 months. She said at first she was just playing enough to get by, but soon got the hang of it. Most of us would never be able to go from zero to playing on stage that quickly but it is possible.
So, I think playing the banjo takes a long time if you practice 30 minutes a day. It takes a lot less calender days if you practice 8 hours a day! ![]()
Edited by - Banjoitus on 07/14/2007 12:01:12
wrangler - Posted - 07/14/2007: 12:15:58
I would like to be arrogant. If I keep working on the banjo, I may someday have reason to be arrogant. The trouble is that the more I learn, the more I realize that I need to learn more.
Mark Twain said that when he was 18, his father was the dumbest man on earth. He said that He had to move away from home and didn't return until he was 21. He was amazed at how much the old gentleman had learned in only three short years. That is paraphrased but it does point out a time honored tradition: The older you get, the less you know.
By the way, there is no hidden meaning between the lines.
Mike
To peace, happiness, banjos that stay in tune and people likewise.
TheBoog - Posted - 07/14/2007: 16:54:42
Hey, there's a great group up in Canada called "The Arrogant Worms", don't think they have a banjo picker though ![]()
Cheers,
Boog
www.hyperscribe.ca
http://cdbaby.com/cd/ianpatton
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=BanjoBoog
vintagewells - Posted - 07/14/2007: 18:59:01
Banjo Hangout has a 'Wormpicker' though![]()
Lorna
I love to play my banjo
I'll play it anywhere.
Even in a dumpster
When my family puts me there!
wormpicker - Posted - 07/14/2007: 19:26:27
Who? Where? ![]()
Obsession is a great substitute for talent. -Steve Martin
rinemb - Posted - 07/14/2007: 19:52:57
I have met a few of the OT Forum folks, taken lessons from a few, learned much from reading the discussions, and just plain enjoyed the participation. BHO has definietly helped me improve my playing. Brad
May not the incidence of success, nor the pretense of retirement-Lessen the want of enlightenment.
Translation: If you have the money to retire-learn to play the Banjo!
twayneking - Posted - 07/15/2007: 03:30:22
One thing I enjoy about this particular site is the diversity of ideas, techniques and styles. I can learn from most anyone. It IS hard to reach the next level no matter what anyone says. I play well enough to amuse myself, but I'd like to take a step up. I've been trying to get my clawhammer bump ditty up to speed for weeks, but as someone observed, I have other pursuits (check my blog under "Bored" if you don't believe me).
The amazing array of talent here is stunning. I get a kick out of listening to the jukebox. Really fun stuff! People are polite and the webmaster keeps things civil. As the comment on Paul's link said, maybe those guys should stick with their own little group in their own little part of the world. That doesn't mean others from the UK aren't welcome on the hangout. I've got a couple on my friends list from the UK and get notes from them pretty regularly.
How cool is that?
It's so much fun to listen to all the different styles. There are folks who play with (gasp) 4 fingers, who don't anchor their ring finger on the head, who play "Star Wars" and classical pieces. People play every kind of banjo you can imagine, with resonators, without resonators, with 4, 5, and even 6 strings, made out of bedpans, gourds, hubcaps and toilet seats.
The forces of political correctness are already stifling creativity all over this country. Are we gonna let "P.C." thinking stifle variety of approach and opinion on this forum? So what if we argue a bit? Makes things lively, that's all. There's no "right" way anyway. As to the musical geniuses in the group, I don't care if they're a little grouchy about how things ought to be done. Just so they let me watch 'em play so I can steal techniques I can put up with the grumpiness.
Most people on this site are really sweet. A couple of 'em could use some medication, but there are always those guys anywhere you go.
Like my grandpa used to say whenever we drove away after a visit, "Keep it between the ditches..."
Just one man's opinion....
Tom King
"I wake up every morning determined both to change the world and
have one hell of a good time. Sometimes this makes planning the
day a little difficult." -- E. B. White
RCCOOK - Posted - 07/15/2007: 11:21:20
I think there is more to this PC thing than we see. He may have a personality that tends to outburst at times.
More power to him and that's just his oppinion. I have never seen folks more willing to help beginners and if knowledge is taken as being arrogant, so be it. I never saw a bunch of fine people as here. This is a good place for banjo players.There is an occasional spat but that is life.
Posting here is an elective. If you can't stand the light, stay away from the bulb, but don't turn it off as other may want to see. NUFF SAID.................Rod
What do you call a hillbilly, Native American, German, Czech, Welch, Irishman.........AMERICAN........;-)
KE - Posted - 07/15/2007: 11:24:43
Ah well, it's nice to have choices. I have chosen not to be involved with the other place under discussion, but other folks may want to. I'm glad they can; I'm very satisfied with the OT Forum.
wormpicker - Posted - 07/15/2007: 12:32:20
quote:
Originally posted by Don Borchelt
Well, even one of Pat's own fans scolded him earlier this evening for making digs against the Hangout. Steve, I hope you won't be upset if I quote you here....
"Please, Pat you don’t need to dig at Banjohangout.com There are many folks on that site that think you are fantastic and recommend your teaching over others that teach by rote."
"Not everyone on that site is arrogant and not everyone on the site thinks the same way. Please, realize that there is room for everyone in this old world and you don’t need to dig at them. It’s not a totally Black and White world as you seem to want to make it out to be."
"Remember the Tao."
chip arnold - Posted - 07/15/2007: 19:14:11
Originally posted by chip arnold
If a person wants to play like Patrick plays it won't take several years. In fact, as he himself says, he could have you doing it in no time. Ever hear him play? It's just a very basic bum-ditty stroke over chords with a few hammers, pulls etc thrown in. That's all.
Like any creative art form, Old Time banjo styles's can be dabbled in in a simple way or they can be a vehicle carrying you to amazing musical heights.and depths. YMMV
_________________________________________
The BellyCaster said: "This topic is scaring me just a bit. The discussion can't go anywhere constructive. Given my demonstrated musical ability, and my difficulty concentrating on anything for more than 15 minutes, I may never get any better than the level Chip has described."
______________________________________________
Hi B-caster, I just got home and read your post. I think playing like PC is just fine. My point was just that it's pretty basic clawhammer playing and CAN be learned in a short time. I don't think his playing puts him in a position to be calling the best pickers on the planet a bunch of no talent hacks, that's all.
I can't clawhammer a note myself so he's certainly better at it than I am.
Play with a plan
Chip
15bassman - Posted - 07/16/2007: 23:15:00
Arrogance....here?!? Never run into any myself...and as far as PC is concerned, my grandmother always said, "if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all". Too bad we can't all learn to be that way.
Here's another piece of free advice, worth every penny you're payin' for it: Shut up and pick! If we were all pickin' banjer instead of trying to be philosopher's of banjers and its players we'd hear better music and less background noise! blah blah blah blah blah![]()
I'm through talkin' now. I'm shutin' up and goin' to pick....![]()
Don't give God instructions....just report for duty!
http://www.crbluegrass.com/
BConk - Posted - 07/17/2007: 06:29:28
quote:
Originally posted by 15bassman
Here's another piece of free advice, worth every penny you're payin' for it: Shut up and pick! If we were all pickin' banjer instead of trying to be philosopher's of banjers and its players we'd hear better music and less background noise! blah blah blah blah blah
I'm through talkin' now. I'm shutin' up and goin' to pick....

uncledelphi - Posted - 07/17/2007: 09:54:39
I'm going to go against the grain here and say that there are some arrogant folks in the olde tyme forum. Indeed, there are arrong folks in all the forums here. However, the friendly folks greatly outnumber the jerks here.
I rarely post to the olde tyme forum anymore. The modern olde tyme community is going one direction, and that is not the direction that I want to go.
However, I will continue warning people about old P.C. whenever I can. I feel that is my responsibility. I know I have gained at least two enemies on this forum by doing that. I would be lying if I said I didn't care; I'd rather have friends than enemies. But it is the responsibility of the experienced professionals and semi-professionals (like myself) to warn begginers against potential pitfalls.
"When you own a Vega, you are sure you have the best."
2Wheeled5Stringer - Posted - 07/17/2007: 10:03:22
well i like to be ARaGant....
lol so much so that i stoped that 3 finger picking crap to pic up Clawhammer so i can have More Braging Rights and to Float my Eago Higher......
lol..... even tho i cant play a dam thing i can still walk around in clubs at night impressing the Chicks with my old time misic information and the " o yea, i can play that, by the way i helped wright that song too, but this guy is playing it way to slow...... i do it much better" coments......
I ONLYT GOT IN TO THE BANJO TO GET THE CHICKS.......LOL.....
lol
"WHAT THE HELL ARE THOES SQUIGGLY LINES............???? "
"YOU CANT PLAY A SAD SONG ON THE BANJO"
Steve Martin
http://www.glumbert.com/media/stevemartin
This is how i wanta play.... In the trees, On the river, In the summer.....
http://mikeleonard.pictureshowfilms...Hartford.mov
Ronnie - Posted - 07/17/2007: 10:50:48
I spent a good part of the week-end with several of our BHO clawhammer wizards, and they are not arrogant at all. They even let this old not-necessarily bluegrass 3 finger picker do some jamming with them. Good folks!!
http://www.banjohangout.org/forum/rules.asp
www.bobbythompsonbanjo.com
mike gregory - Posted - 07/17/2007: 10:58:16

For those of you who enjoy banjo AND enjoy an occasional flamefest, here's an effigy of a banjo player, being burned.
The item seems to be about four meters tall.
Apparently part of an art festival.
For those of you who claim there is only one PROPER way to play, feel free to imagine that it's representing everyone who does not play the PROPER way.
Who are you calling Aragorn?
Mike Gregory, Banjo Maker Infraordinaire
When I claim that MY instruments are as good as any that Martin or Gibson ever made, I mean DEAN Martin and MEL Gibson!
Here’s what my odd banjos sound like:
http://www.banjohangout.org/myhango....asp?id=8805
mgregorybanjo@core.com
see my banjos at
http://littlebanjos.lunare.net
Don Borchelt - Posted - 07/17/2007: 12:28:55
XXXchris wrote: "... i always read a locked topic when i see one.... (don't you?)"
Yup.
http://www.banjr.com
"I'm not interested in politics. The problems of the world are not in my department. I'm a saloon keeper." - Rick Blaine
twelvefret - Posted - 07/17/2007: 12:46:05
[quote I know I have gained at least two enemies on this forum by doing that. I would be lying if I said I didn't care;]
quote:
The answer is no.
You can mix it up all you want (and that's fine), but you won't be playing true clawhammer.
R.D. Lunceford- "Missourian in Exile"[/quote]
"Any darn fool can make something complex; it takes a genius to make something simple." Pete Seeger
uncledelphi - Posted - 07/17/2007: 13:00:32
Chuck, you weren't among the ones I was thinking of when I mentioned "at least two enemies." You and I have had our disagreements, yes. There are some issues on which we will probably never agree (specifically, my anti-import stance). But we have also agreed on some things, both here and on the Fiddle Hangout.
One point I tried to make in the most recent locked P.C. thread was that disgreements can and should be civil. I may not always live up to that ideal, but it is something that I strive for. From your postings, I believe you also share a similar ideal.
You know, folks can disagree, even disagree strongly, and still be friends. So I would like to take this opportunity to publicly offer you my virtual handshake as a friend. We have more in common than otherwise.
And any time you're in Huntsville, AL, you are welcome to stop by my place and jam. That invitation stands for any Hangout member, even and especially those with whom I have argued vociferously.
"When you own a Vega, you are sure you have the best."
mike gregory - Posted - 07/17/2007: 13:14:49
quote:
Originally posted by uncledelphi
Chuck, you weren't among the ones I was thinking of when I mentioned "at least two enemies." .................
You know, folks can disagree, even disagree strongly, and still be friends. So I would like to take this opportunity to publicly offer you my virtual handshake as a friend.


seanray - Posted - 07/17/2007: 13:35:37
Please forgive my ignorance but who is Patrick Costello?
http://www.seanray.com
wormpicker - Posted - 07/17/2007: 13:39:32
quote:
Originally posted by seanray
Please forgive my ignorance but who is Patrick Costello?
Edited by - wormpicker on 07/17/2007 13:40:05
twelvefret - Posted - 07/17/2007: 14:27:44
[quoteAnd any time you're in Huntsville, AL, you are welcome to stop by my place and jam. That invitation stands for any Hangout member, even and especially those with whom I have argued vociferously.]
quote:
Here's a pair of virtual hands.
Now you two start shakin', before I send in the
" Nuns and Guns Friendship Enforcement Team"!
[/quote]
That was a very nice gesture, Mike. Thanks!
chuckEdited by - twelvefret on 07/17/2007 14:31:01
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