Phil - MO - Posted - 04/06/2026:  08:33:23

It seems like the standard tuning for 5 string banjo in the 1800's and early 1900's was drop C or standard C.

(4th string down to C instead of D).

Just curious.

Most tabs now are in standard open G of course.



Phil

Edited by - Texasbanjo on 04/07/2026 04:02:57

RB3 - Posted - 04/06/2026:  09:34:23

I suspect that it was because of the proliferation of Bluegrass music and Scruggs-style playing.

Old Hickory - Posted - 04/06/2026:  11:54:44

But why did Earl play in G tuning?

Edited by - Old Hickory on 04/06/2026 11:55:03

Old Hickory - Posted - 04/06/2026:  12:03:40

I asked Google. It said:

Open G tuning became the standard for modern bluegrass and folk banjo primarily due to the evolution of the instrument in string bands, requiring a tuning that offered easy chord access, bright resonance, and easy accompaniment for fiddlers. The shift away from older C-tunings accelerated with bluegrass, prioritizing high-pitched, resonant tones.

Musical Compatibility (Fiddle Tunes): G tuning allows the banjo to easily accompany fiddlers, who typically play in keys like G, C, and D.

Resonance and Drone Strings: The open tuning maximizes the vibration of all five strings, resulting in the bright, "ringing" sound iconic to bluegrass.

Chord Accessibility: As discussed on Reddit, Open G provides easier, direct access to the I, IV, and V chords (G, C, D) used in popular folk music, whereas older tunings often required more complex fingerings.

Bluegrass Evolution: The rise of bluegrass music in the mid-20th century, particularly the style popularized by Earl Scruggs, solidified open G as the standard because it suits fast, melodic, and arpeggiated picking.

While earlier styles (like clawhammer) often used different tunings, G tuning became the default for instruction and bluegrass playing today.

-  -  -  -  -  -  -

If the above is correct, then I'm guessing banjo players playing folk and country music, including the earlier banjo players working with Bill Monroe, had already determined that G tuning was more conducive to playing in multiple keys. It was certainly conducive to G. And by capoing, songs could easily be played in A, B-flat, and B as if in G.

Joel Hooks - Posted - 04/06/2026:  12:12:33

This is a good question, I'd also like to know why.

RB3 , I agree that bluegrass is likely the reason, but to echo Ken above, why?

martyjoe - Posted - 04/06/2026:  12:20:48

So the next question is why did the earlier C tuning come about? Was it that it is concert pitch? Maybe banjoists were playing more with piano? Could it be that it was the best sounding tune for the available strings of the time?

pinenut - Posted - 04/06/2026:  12:23:08

quote:

---

Originally posted by Old Hickory

But why did Earl play in G tuning?

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Apparently, it's Lester's doing; he preferred singing in G# and Bb (So, I have read). 

banjohangout.org/archive/222283

Edited by - pinenut on 04/06/2026 12:25:13

pinenut - Posted - 04/06/2026:  12:28:28

quote:

---

Originally posted by martyjoe

So the next question is why did the earlier C tuning come about?

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I have 'read' that 'C' is derived from the earlier 'A' tuning/notation... 

For what reason?  

classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/t...nd-like-c

Edited by - pinenut on 04/06/2026 12:39:27

Joel Hooks - Posted - 04/06/2026:  13:12:47

The string intervals date to the first "banjo as we know it" in popular form with a round wooden rim. Like it or not, this popular form of the banjo is generally (and likely) believed to have been put into form by Joe Sweeney.

Since there was only one "tuning" (string interval set), "pitch" was designated by the 4th string. Early banjos were generally large and used a combination of violin and guitar strings (both of which were gut strung). The actual "pitch" was arbitrary.

Since it was introduced to the popular public through minstrelsy, the banjo was adapted to ensemble work. Generally the 4th was pitched to match other instruments it was being played with.

Enter a young Frank B. Converse who decided that people needed a system to learn how to play the banjo as well as an established way to record, share, send, learn, and sell music.

The first attempt was with the Briggs Banjo Instructor which established the pitch as G.

This pitch and system was soon discarded for the pitch of A (enter A notation) as at that time the 4th string was commonly and widely pitched to A.

This sticks, and by 1879 the banjo sheet music publishing industry kicks off.

Meanwhile, by the 1870s the pitch was again raised by many, this time to Bb to match horns in bands and orchestras, which were then being used in minstrelsy and burlesque theater.

And finally by the mid-1880s we arrive at the pitch of C. The only problem is that there are now thousands of pieces of sheet music and hundreds of books published, all in A.

So despite the noted pitch of A, the banjo was then treated as a transposing instrument much like Bb horns.

This held on until the BMG Guild voted in 1908 to officially adopt C notation. Confusion ensued.

This notation problem was the final nail in the coffin of the regular banjo.

Then the regular banjo was out and the plectrum and tenor was in.

Then the depression shut it all down until the New Deal.

Edited by - Joel Hooks on 04/06/2026 13:17:50

Joel Hooks - Posted - 04/06/2026:  13:15:32

William Foden gives a brief account in his correspondence course here:

Bill Rogers - Posted - 04/06/2026:  15:27:37

Questions arise: At some point the tuning(s) must have been affected by use of the banjo to accompany singing. Did tunings such as Open D, Double-C, Sawmill, and minor tunings develop among traditional players first, or did they come from the classic banjo community?

Joel Hooks - Posted - 04/06/2026:  16:26:02

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bill Rogers

Questions arise: At some point the tuning(s) must have been affected by use of the banjo to accompany singing. Did tunings such as Open D, Double-C, Sawmill, and minor tunings develop among traditional players first, or did they come from the classic banjo community?

---

Aside from a very few examples, scordatura does not occur in the tens of thousands of published solos, hundreds of books and folios, or any handwritten manuscripts, that span over 6 decades.

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 04/07/2026:  06:52:30

Yes, bluegrass. But as Joel asks--WHY?



A lot of the songs in bluegrass, and the earlier traditions (both commercial and noncommercial) that preceded bluegrass, have a range of about one octave, from the fifth degree of the scale below the root to the fifth degree above the root. Think of "Amazing Grace" and "Will The Circle Be Unbroken"; there are many other examples. In the key of G, such melodies range from a low D--the banjo's open 4th string in G tuning--to the open 1st string. This corresponds, in general, to an untrained male vocal range. Lots of men can sing such songs in the key of G.



Now, on the average, the songs in this body of repertoire spend more time on the I chord than on the IV, V, or "off chords". In addition, most melody notes are notes that are part of the underlying chord.



So G tuning allows maximum access to melody notes on open strings, without the need to leave first position, to play in a key that's accessible to most male singers. That's got to be at least part of the answer.

Edited by - Ira Gitlin on 04/07/2026 06:55:35

The Old Timer - Posted - 04/07/2026:  07:39:47

I doubt if Uncle Dave Macon thought there was any particular standard tuning. He just carried multiple banjos, each tuned differently, to suit certain songs.

The only "standard" associated with any of them was making them align with his fiddler or guitar man.

It has always fascinated me why on the old Carter Family records, Maybelle had her guitar tuned 3 half steps LOW. Well guess what, when she played the C chord shape on her guitar she was actually in the the key of A (as determined by piano and "standard" tuning). She and Sara were both banjo players and perhaps they used the old low tuning A standard on their banjos. Which wouldn't have matched up at all with the notations on the decals of the autoharp!!

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 04/07/2026:  08:34:52

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Old Timer

I doubt if Uncle Dave Macon thought there was any particular standard tuning. He just carried multiple banjos, each tuned differently, to suit certain songs.



The only "standard" associated with any of them was making them align with his fiddler or guitar man.



It has always fascinated me why on the old Carter Family records, Maybelle had her guitar tuned 3 half steps LOW. Well guess what, when she played the C chord shape on her guitar she was actually in the the key of A (as determined by piano and "standard" tuning). She and Sara were both banjo players and perhaps they used the old low tuning A standard on their banjos. Which wouldn't have matched up at all with the notations on the decals of the autoharp!!

---

See my post above. On guitar a LOT of those melodies lay out conveniently on the bass strings in C. I don't know that the older banjo A notation/tuning had anything to do with Maybelle's tuning down. I think her tuning down can best be regarded as a negative capo.



;^)

Joel Hooks - Posted - 04/07/2026:  08:37:16

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Old Timer

I doubt if Uncle Dave Macon thought there was any particular standard tuning. He just carried multiple banjos, each tuned differently, to suit certain songs.



The only "standard" associated with any of them was making them align with his fiddler or guitar man.



It has always fascinated me why on the old Carter Family records, Maybelle had her guitar tuned 3 half steps LOW. Well guess what, when she played the C chord shape on her guitar she was actually in the the key of A (as determined by piano and "standard" tuning). She and Sara were both banjo players and perhaps they used the old low tuning A standard on their banjos. Which wouldn't have matched up at all with the notations on the decals of the autoharp!!

---

This can be a little confusing if one does not drill down on the timeline.

Dave Macon was most active after 1900.  It is around and after 1900 that the formation of what we now call "old time" happened.  This was a Jim Crow era cultural response to that white generation's fear spurring a popular culture nostalgia for the "good old days" of barn dances, simpler times, and other things that might of happened in a way for some people, but not so much for others. 

This was also, somewhat, a transition of blackface minstrelsy to a "hillbilly" version in popular entertainment (which is where the "comedian banjoist" thing came from.

Until that young generation developed a new music, steeped in nostalgia, the banjo as we know it was pretty much "tuned" one way.  Rare and isolated exceptions (often shrouded in vague historical conjecture) prove the rule. 

The fact that college academics and folklorists during the folk revival narrowly focused in on, and became obsessed with scordatura used by musicians such as Dave Macon has nothing to do with the realities of common pre revival banjo. 

As I stated, which was in a way supported by Ira, the actual pitch of the banjo was arbitrary, and many accounts refer to adjusting the pitch to the player's voice if they sing.  Otherwise, the pitch did not matter for solo work unless there was accompaniment provided by other instruments, and then the banjo would be pitched to match, C for piano, C for guitar, Bb for horns, etc..



I admit that it is difficult to understand the cultural shift to the current social "jam" setting which did not seem to really exist before the rise of the fiddle contests (which were often music industry promotions).  It has been so prevalent and common that it is hard to imagine a time when it was not a thing.  But filing cabinets were also not a thing until the 1890s.

I am writing in broad generalities with "plain, everyday and common".  Does this mean that every single banjoists ever was only tuning in "standard"?  Absolutely not.  But thousands and thousands were. 



In fact, it was not even called "standard"--- it was just "how to tune the banjo".  Any deviation/scordatura would be noted on the music.

Also, strange to imagine a time when notation was the common way music was sold, traded, given, bought, taught and recorded.  Anti-intellectualism and audio recordings have really changed the way music is made. 

Phil - MO - Posted - 04/07/2026:  09:08:12

Thanks for all the information and theories.
Thiis kind of started me thinking a couple of weeks ago while jamming, (I have to watch this thinking at my age}.
Pretty well the same people jam 3 or more times a month. One player started a song he had written and didn't say what key it was in.
The rhythm guitar player I usually watch was hidden by her music stand so I looked around at other guitar players in case I wanted to fake a break if someboody yelled banjo.
One guitar player was capoed at 7th fret and playing in the key of C for the 1,4,5 for G.
Another was capoed at B flat, another capoed at A and a couple others no capo for G. Song was in G I think.

Also years ago I purchased a book "Playing banjo in different tunings". One song sample tabbed out in drop C (4th string to C) was I think Old Rugged Cross. The 4th string was never used in he tab? Did dropping C tuning make the song in C rather than G???? even though the 4th string C was never used?
.

Nic Pennsylvania - Posted - 04/07/2026:  09:20:30

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joel Hooks

Also, strange to imagine a time when notation was the common way music was sold, traded, given, bought, taught and recorded.  Anti-intellectualism and audio recordings have really changed the way music is made. 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes! I'm always encouraging people to learn to read. The notes on paper are as much a recording of a song as is an old 78 or MP3. 

RB3 - Posted - 04/07/2026:  09:24:12

Joel Hicks said: “I agree that bluegrass is likely the reason, but to echo Ken above, why?”

I would look first to Earl Scruggs’ mother. It’s often been said that his mother always admonished him to “play the melody”, and that’s what he tried to do.

Scruggs' approach to playing the melody resulted in him playing a bunch of “filler” notes between the melody notes. My understanding is that when he chose the filler notes, his first preference was to choose notes that were part of the prevailing chords.

If you tune the fourth string down to C, and you’re fretting the first and second strings with your ring finger and index finger to form the C-chord position, you can’t play the E note on the fourth string. It’s the same with the D-chord; you can’t hold the D-chord position on the first three strings and be able to play the F# note on the fourth string.

The E note and the F# note are ubiquitous melody notes for songs played in the key of G, so if you’re playing out of chord positions so that you can play filler notes that are part of the chords, G-tuning makes it possible to get to the E note and F# note on the fourth string. I think this is why Scruggs used G-tuning. The people who followed him copied him.

1935tb-11 - Posted - 04/07/2026:  10:13:11

if you want a simple uncomplicated answer it is because when earl scruggs and bill monroe got together everything changed... bills band with the edition of earl or (the big bang / dec 8th 1945 ) of bluegrass became the standard. once it was heard on the opry everyone fell in line.

banjoboyd - Posted - 04/07/2026:  16:56:34

Standard tuning changed because the "standard" way of playing the banjo changed. Every tuning is a means to a musical/aesthetic end. That "end" is not necessarily shared across different time periods and styles. 

gCGBD (I'm transposing everything to modern pitch for convenience) made perfect sense for the kind of music people were playing on the banjo in the mid-19th century. It gives you full, resonant, and easy-to-play-on-a-fretless chords on C (0012) and G (2000), and also works well for F (0213) and and D (2210). That early (published) repertoire was conventionally tonal; they were outlining I - IV - V(7) progressions, and in a way that was effective for lead/solo/unaccompanied playing. As closed-position/barre playing evolved, and banjo music likewise became more harmonically complex, it turned out that gCGBD worked well for that, too. You can find banjo solos in the keys of D, G/Em, C/Am, F/Dm, Bb (not so much Gm), Eb/Cm, Ab, all using gCGBD. That's pretty dang versatile. gDGBD ("elevated bass") is specified for some pieces in D and A, but those are in the minority. 



There's no question that having a standard tuning is advantageous for a practice that is heavily chordal and relies on reading notation. It's the same reason most classical guitar music is in EADGBE, despite lots of other tunings certainly being viable. The fretboard layout stays the same, the chord shapes stay the same, and with a bit of practice, you can sight-read fairly complex music. 



No one really knows how far back the use of "alternative" tunings goes in the folk traditions that informed the development of today's old-time music. But heterophonically elaborating upon "modal" tunes, tracing fiddle melodies, accompanying singing, playing breaks etc. are all very different applications than performing composed solos in a tonal idiom. Bluegrass and old-time are both elaborative styles that make use of droning/rhythmic open strings and that work well in a semi-improvisatory, sans-notational ensemble context. The tunings used reflect this. 



 

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 04/08/2026:  06:47:03

quote:

---

Originally posted by Phil - MO

Also years ago I purchased a book "Playing banjo in different tunings". One song sample tabbed out in drop C (4th string to C) was I think Old Rugged Cross. The 4th string was never used in he tab? Did dropping C tuning make the song in C rather than G???? even though the 4th string C was never used?

.

---

This might be a good time to reiterate something that comes up on BHO from time to time: THE TUNING IS NOT THE SAME AS THE KEY. You can play in ANY key out of ANY tuning. That said, certain tunings do make it easier to play in certain keys.



On at least one occasion years ago, I played something in the key of D, but used C tuning because the melody included the low C. 

J.Albert - Posted - 04/08/2026:  16:16:30

Why tuned the 4th to D?

Occam's razor applies.

It was just easier to play in G, A, or B (the latter two with capo) with the 4th string tuned to D instead of C. More open strings, less finger-twisting.

With the 4th at C, you'd need to cover it for both the chords of G and D. D in particular  was more complicated to fret, and just didn't sound as good.

4th at C does sound good here and there. I'm thinking of Earl playing "Hard Travelin' " ...

1935tb-11 - Posted - 04/09/2026:  05:37:19

quote:

---

Originally posted by J.Albert

Why tuned the 4th to D?

Occam's razor applies.

It was just easier to play in G, A, or B (the latter two with capo) with the 4th string tuned to D instead of C. More open strings, less finger-twisting.

With the 4th at C, you'd need to cover it for both the chords of G and D. D in particular  was more complicated to fret, and just didn't sound as good.

4th at C does sound good here and there. I'm thinking of Earl playing "Hard Travelin' " ...

---

i love playing in drop C and double C tuning ,,, banjo sounds great down there.

Joel Hooks - Posted - 04/09/2026:  06:20:03

Presuming that using gDGBD as the "standard" or base system of "tuning" originated with Earl Scruggs, and subsequently other banjoists imitating/inspired by him, does that mean that "old time" which largely uses gDGBD as the basis with which scordata (alternate tuning) is an extension of is all rooted post WW2?

Post war is not that "old" when it comes to the "old time banjo" folklorist narrative.

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 04/09/2026:  06:44:04

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joel Hooks

Presuming that using gDGBD as the "standard" or base system of "tuning" originated with Earl Scruggs, and subsequently other banjoists imitating/inspired by him, 

---

I suspect Snuffy Jenkins (b. 1908) must have used gDGBD a lot, with Scruggs (b. 1924) and other younger banjo players like Ralph Stanley and Don Reno emulating him in the 1930s. But it may not have become the de facto standard until large numbers of people began copying Scruggs in the late 1940s.

The two earliest recordings we have of Scruggs (AFAIK) are live Opry air checks from March 1946. In both, he's playing out of the key of C, to match Bill Monroe's high vocal range. (The actual pitch varies depending on which copy of the recordings you hear, with some copies as high as  E-flat--almost surely sped up from the original--and he may have been using a capo.) Because of the poor quality of the recordings, I have a hard time telling whether his 4th string is tuned down.



youtu.be/ri_koXykl_U?t=75

youtube.com/watch?v=gZpSgWcOEFg

Edited by - Ira Gitlin on 04/09/2026 06:44:44

Bart Veerman - Posted - 04/09/2026:  06:44:43

And then there's all them "non-standard" haruteq.com/bvb-02.htm">tunings. Also, how can you call it a 5 string banjo when it's only a 4 and-a-half string banjo? No wonder banjos and banjoeys get poked fun at...

Added: I don't wanna railroad this thread so replies should go to a new topic post.

Edited by - Bart Veerman on 04/09/2026 06:50:58

pinenut - Posted - 04/09/2026:  07:37:34

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joel Hooks

Presuming that using gDGBD as the "standard" or base system of "tuning" originated with Earl Scruggs, and subsequently other banjoists imitating/inspired by him, does that mean that "old time" which largely uses gDGBD as the basis with which scordata (alternate tuning) is an extension of is all rooted post WW2? Are you fishing/testing us?  Either way, I'll bite.

No, most of the non-campy fiddle tunes that are fundamental to the old time group are played in the key of 'D' which means gCGCD capo2.  What is the lineage for double C?



Post war is not that "old" when it comes to the "old time banjo" folklorist narrative.

---

Edited by - pinenut on 04/09/2026 07:45:00

Joel Hooks - Posted - 04/09/2026:  07:44:08

quote:

---

Originally posted by pinenut

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joel Hooks

Presuming that using gDGBD as the "standard" or base system of "tuning" originated with Earl Scruggs, and subsequently other banjoists imitating/inspired by him, does that mean that "old time" which largely uses gDGBD as the basis with which scordata (alternate tuning) is an extension of is all rooted post WW2? 

No (are you fishing/testing us? ), most of the non-campy fiddle tunes that are fundamental to the old time group are played in the key of 'D' which means gCGCD capo2.  What is the lineage for double C?



Post war is not that "old" when it comes to the "old time banjo" folklorist narrative.

---

 

---

Are you able to post images of pre 1940 banjoists using capos?

pinenut - Posted - 04/09/2026:  07:49:13

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joel Hooks

quote:

---

Originally posted by pinenut

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joel Hooks

Presuming that using gDGBD as the "standard" or base system of "tuning" originated with Earl Scruggs, and subsequently other banjoists imitating/inspired by him, does that mean that "old time" which largely uses gDGBD as the basis with which scordata (alternate tuning) is an extension of is all rooted post WW2?  Are you fishing/testing us?  Either way, I'll bite.

No, most of the non-campy fiddle tunes that are fundamental to the old time group are played in the key of 'D' which means gCGCD capo2.  What is the lineage for double C?

Post war is not that "old" when it comes to the "old time banjo" folklorist narrative.

---

 

---

Are you able to post images of pre 1940 banjoists using capos? 

Nope, poor people didn't have cameras; pictures were mostly for affluent city folk.

Still, G tuning and Earl are not fundamental to old time dance music. 

My understanding is that the many/most of the base tunes in the old time genre are commonly hundreds of years old and mostly trace back to areas that are now the UK.

---

Edited by - pinenut on 04/09/2026 08:01:36

Joel Hooks - Posted - 04/09/2026:  07:58:01

quote:

---

Originally posted by pinenut

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joel Hooks

quote:

---

Originally posted by pinenut

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joel Hooks

Presuming that using gDGBD as the "standard" or base system of "tuning" originated with Earl Scruggs, and subsequently other banjoists imitating/inspired by him, does that mean that "old time" which largely uses gDGBD as the basis with which scordata (alternate tuning) is an extension of is all rooted post WW2?  Are you fishing/testing us?  Either way, I'll bite.

No, most of the non-campy fiddle tunes that are fundamental to the old time group are played in the key of 'D' which means gCGCD capo2.  What is the lineage for double C?

Post war is not that "old" when it comes to the "old time banjo" folklorist narrative.

---

 

---

Are you able to post images of pre 1940 banjoists using capos? 

Nope, poor people didn't have cameras; pictures were mostly for affluent city folk.

Still, G tuning and Earl are not fundamental to the old time group.  

---

 

---

Do you find it strange that something so common that was used for "most fiddle tunes" has escaped any sort of documentation?

Sorry, there are plenty of images, just none that support the common use of capos.

pinenut - Posted - 04/09/2026:  10:22:21

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joel Hooks

quote:

---

Originally posted by pinenut

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joel Hooks

quote:

---

Originally posted by pinenut

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joel Hooks

 

---

 

---

Are you able to post images of pre 1940 banjoists using capos? 

Nope, poor people didn't have cameras; pictures were mostly for affluent city folk.

Sorry, there are plenty of images, just none that support the common use of capos. 

Capos have been commonly available and used for centuries on a variety of instruments.  People are resourceful, and it is poor assumption that capos were in common use on banjos or not just because documentation is absent. 

Proving a negative is difficult (123-not-it).  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy)#Proving_a_negative

 

Still, G tuning and Earl are not fundamental to the old time group; influential, definitely.

---

 

---

 

---

Originally posted by Joel Hooks

"Presuming that using gDGBD as the "standard" or base system of "tuning" originated with Earl Scruggs, and subsequently other banjoists imitating/inspired by him, does that mean that "old time" which largely uses gDGBD as the basis with which scordata (alternate tuning) is an extension of is all rooted post WW2?"  - Joel Hooks.quote:

I'm struggling with the details and associations in the statement above.

Earl is not the origin of the gDGBD banjo tuning and was initially educated, pre-WW2, in the music that was to eventually be heavily revised and called/named "old time".

Concerning scordatura; the bluegrass banjo does largely use gDGBD, while the current old time banjo uses many alternate tunings (double-C and G being the most common tunings).  Which, is a total pain and breaks my strings prematurely.

Edited by - pinenut on 04/09/2026 10:30:34

Joel Hooks - Posted - 04/09/2026:  12:06:36

pinenut , I'll try to explain.



This link will take you to over 2500 banjo documents spanning 1855 to 1930, mostly published but also includes handwritten manuscript.



archive.org/details/@joel_hooks



Included are over 150 banjo instruction books/methods.



100% of these methods start by teaching the banjo in the intervals of "standard" gCGBD. For the sake of consistency I will write in "C notation", but this all applies to "A notation" as only the written pitch is different.



In these methods, "bass elevated" is introduced about halfway through as an auxiliary "tuning" to facilitate easier fingering for certain pieces in certain keys. The musical examples are then given for the key of G.



Of the thousands and thousands of musical pieces (including countless "fiddle tunes") spanning nearly 8 decades, 100% of them presume that the player will sit down with their banjo tuned gCGBD.



For pieces which the composer/arranger has deemed easier to play by raising the 4th string one step, the instruction "Bass Elevated", "Raised Bass", "4th to D", &c., will be given as it is a deviation from "Standard."



19th and early 20th century photos of banjoists, where it is clear the subject actually plays and is not just holding a prop, are almost always holding a chord shape using "standard" tuning, usually C. I have boxes of these photos, but uncountable numbers are may be found online.



Of the over 150 instruction books I have scanned and uploaded (BTW, this is not all of what I have-- there are boxes more of them but only so much time to scan), I can think of only 1 that mentions a capo, "Buckley's New Banjo Method", 1860. James Buckley is pictured on the cover holding an Ashborn banjo. Ashborn had patented a capo for the guitar and was trying to sell them. The conclusion is clear.



The other mention that I can think of is in the folio "Converse's Banjo Songs", 1888, this is a collection of songs (singing) with banjo accompaniment.



Scordatura (alternate tuning) is only mentioned a few times. Once by George Dobson for his "Jumbo Jig", once in "Buckley's Banjo Guide", 1868, and once in the "Eclectic School For The Banjo Part 2", by John Lee, 1887. There might be other examples that I am blanking on.



Currently, if you buy a modern banjo method book it will start you with the "standard" of gDGBD, this includes the "old time" books I have viewed (admitting I've not looked at very many). In general current vernacular, "standard banjo tuning" means gDGBD. If you google this it is the answer you will get.



Taking all of this into account, if "old time" is taught starting with gDGBD, and it is generally agreed that only became the "standard" after the popularity of Earl Scruggs, then "old time" is based on post ww2 ideas of banjo playing.



I have now presented thousands of documents to support my statement (and this is only part of what I have that has not been scanned). I will now shift the burden of proof, are you able to provide any documentable source of banjo playing that predates 1900 (the documentation itself) using "double C with a capo at 2"?

Edited by - Joel Hooks on 04/09/2026 12:09:40

pinenut - Posted - 04/09/2026:  12:40:05

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joel Hooks

pinenut , I'll try to explain.



This link will take you to over 2500 banjo documents spanning 1855 to 1930, mostly published but also includes handwritten manuscript.



archive.org/details/@joel_hooks



Included are over 150 banjo instruction books/methods.



100% of these methods start by teaching the banjo in the intervals of "standard" gCGBD. For the sake of consistency I will write in "C notation", but this all applies to "A notation" as only the written pitch is different.  Bummer that it didn't stick.  Maybe standard-C will boomerang and become the standard again? 



For pieces which the composer/arranger has deemed easier to play by raising the 4th string one step, the instruction "Bass Elevated", "Raised Bass", "4th to D", &c., will be given as it is a deviation from "Standard."  gDGBD



Currently, if you buy a modern banjo method book it will start you with the "standard" of gDGBD, this includes the "old time" books I have viewed (admitting I've not looked at very many). In general current vernacular, "standard banjo tuning" means gDGBD. If you google this it is the answer you will get.  Levenson is almost exclusively double-C, Perlman is mostly G in his entry books but changes dramatically in his other works.  Jumper, Koehler, and the rest flop between a variety of tunings once you get past that rubber stamp introduction.



Taking all of this into account, if "old time" is taught starting with gDGBD, and it is generally agreed that only became the "standard" after the popularity of Earl Scruggs, then "old time" is based on post ww2 ideas of banjo playing.  



I have now presented thousands of documents to support my statement (and this is only part of what I have that has not been scanned). I will now shift the burden of proof, are you able to provide any documentable source of banjo playing that predates 1900 (the documentation itself) using "double C with a capo at 2"?  

---

Originally posted by pinenut  "most of the non-campy fiddle tunes that are fundamental to the old time group are played in the key of 'D' which means gCGCD capo2.  What is the lineage for double C?"

Please don't take me out of context.  I never asserted that double-C or capos were used pre-WW2.  The term "old time" is known to be post war (fairly certain that I initially learned this from you).

I asked about the history of double-C and asserted that Earl was highly influential and not the originator of gDGBD, which is supported in your excellent expanded explanation. 

Edited by - pinenut on 04/09/2026 12:51:42

Joel Hooks - Posted - 04/09/2026:  12:54:36

Oh, double C? I have not a clue. Sorry. I wish I did know.

pinenut - Posted - 04/09/2026:  13:17:24

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joel Hooks

Oh, double C? I have not a clue. Sorry. I wish I did know.  Thank you.

---

The data that I am aware of is a bit thin...

folkways-media.si.edu/docs/fol...02342.pdf

banjohangout.org/archive/381872/2

Edited by - pinenut on 04/09/2026 13:28:19

steve davis - Posted - 04/15/2026:  08:28:43

I played the C tuned 4th through much of the 60s because my Mom's sheet music books had banjo and guitar chords printed above the staves and these books were from the 20s and 30s.
Our old friend Mike Long played an RB-250 and piano at Shakey's Pizzas and told me to tune to open G because it made chords a lot easier.and to get a geared 5th strings peg.

I believe the raising of the C to D happened out of a natural evolution of players' preference for more forgiving chord shapes.

Joel Hooks - Posted - 04/15/2026:  08:55:45

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

I played the C tuned 4th through much of the 60s because my Mom's sheet music books had banjo and guitar chords printed above the staves and these books were from the 20s and 30s.

Our old friend Mike Long played an RB-250 and piano at Shakey's Pizzas and told me to tune to open G because it made chords a lot easier.and to get a geared 5th strings peg.



I believe the raising of the C to D happened out of a natural evolution of players' preference for more forgiving chord shapes.

---

I think Eddie Peabody might disagree with you.

steve davis - Posted - 04/16/2026:  09:05:27

I think the banjo picking majority might swing my way.

Bob Buckingham - Posted - 04/16/2026:  18:41:32

These are just some observations on this topic.

Charlie Poole used C tuning gCGBD for most of his material as did other banjo players of that period. The old mountain players used a wide variety of tunings.
When I was a kid I had a banjo book with my very first banjo and it said tune the banjo gCGBD. That was in the 1960's.

banjoboyd - Posted - 04/16/2026:  19:32:19

Eddie Peabody played chord-melody style.

Charlie Poole (at least on recordings) played mostly guitar-ish chordal backup.

Neither of these correspond to typical bluegrass or old-time playing as they stand today.

As I've said: Different tunings for different musical applications.

Jake1945 - Posted - 04/17/2026:  07:40:43

Interestingly, when I began learning banjo in 1962, my teacher (primarily a guitarist, and a very good one) had me tuning in drop C. It was only several years later that I began playing in G tuning.

John Gribble - Posted - 04/17/2026:  07:41:05

Oh, My! A Banjo NerdFest!

To add a little more confusion to the mix, Earl didn't always play in G tuning. In fact the first tune he worked up in his three finger style was "Reuben" (aka "Reuben's Train") in open D tuning f#DF#AD. He probably worked things out G tuning because it was easier to keep the melody under his thumb on the 4th and 3rd strings while keeping the rolls going on the open 2nd,1st, and 5th strings. Of course he didn't always play the melody with his thumb, but he did tend to, more often than not.

mikehalloran - Posted - 04/17/2026:  19:37:12

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jake1945

Interestingly, when I began learning banjo in 1962, my teacher (primarily a guitarist, and a very good one) had me tuning in drop C. It was only several years later that I began playing in G tuning.

---

All of us who began with Pete Seeger's books in the 1950s–'60s started in C tuning. Pete got around to G tuning but it took awhile. In concert, he used both tunings plus a few others.

steve davis - Posted - 04/19/2026:  08:15:26

All the old song books (sheet music and lessons) were set up for 4th note C.It was the standard written tuning for classical banjo.

That changed due to players' preferences.

G tuning plays easier than C tuning.More adaptable to all kinds of music and keys.

Edited by - steve davis on 04/19/2026 08:16:41

pinenut - Posted - 04/19/2026:  08:57:02

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

G tuning plays easier than C tuning.More adaptable to all kinds of music and keys.

---

Don't leave us hanging...

How is G more adaptable and why does it plays easier than C ?

banjoboyd - Posted - 04/19/2026:  09:19:43

Open G is fantastic...for playing music in G major.



You can, of course, capo up to other keys, but then the tuning is great for that particular key and not others. 



Solos in the classic banjo repertoire frequently change keys. If your A section is in G major, your B section is liable to be in D major, and your C section (the "trio") in C major. Or it could be C major + G major + F major, or F major + C major + Bb major. gCGBD works well in all of these cases. 



I find that this whole discussion is conflating banjo playing with musical form. If frequent key changes were characteristic of bluegrass music, then bluegrass banjo playing would likely have developed in a different direction. Ditto for old-time. 

steve davis - Posted - 04/22/2026:  10:44:02

I spent my first 10 years of playing using C tuning and a flat pick.
The only banjo player ever mentioned in Port Clyde in the 50s was Eddie Peabody.
When I was introduced to bluegrass and g tuning my playing became much more user friendly for me starting with the straight barre and carrying on to play all keys without a capo if I so choose.
I like to say "I treat all keys as if they were "G"."
I haven't tried thumb fretting or the melodic style in C tuning.
Having spent time with both tunings I find the open G to be a freer expression of harmonies and melodic excursions.

Joel Hooks - Posted - 04/22/2026:  11:46:26

I don't know about Port Clyde, but Maine in general was popular vacation grounds for many "classic era" banjoists. George Lansing, who composed one of the best selling solos (which remained in constant print and a number of editions for nearly 30 years) composed it in Maine. He gave two conflicting stories, one he was in Addison Point on vacation. Another he was serving with the First Regiment in Maine at camp for a week in 1887.

He also composed the then popular "Flying Yankee", which I believe was the train that ran from Boston to Maine.

Kamp Krany Krow in Presque Isle, Maine was a popular destination for many banjoists including D. E. Hartnett and countless others. The three Ks was no typo and the intended message was clear (yes, that was happening in Maine too). Lansing wrote a foxtrot by the name "Krany Krow Kamp".