pinenut - Posted - 11/07/2025:  16:42:24

I play a few tunes in three-finger; Groundhog from the Scruggs book is my favorite. 

It feels more like some old-time two-finger style done up with three and bounces instead of rolling.  This straightforward, plunky style has suited me for years and I want more...

What is this style variant called and what other tunes in the Scruggs book or elsewhere are written like this?

"Groundhog", p141, "Earl Scruggs and the 5-string Banjo", by: Bill Keith, Earl Scruggs and Burt Albright

Edited by - pinenut on 11/07/2025 17:16:08

banjoboyd - Posted - 11/07/2025:  17:15:15

I don't know that it has a particular name, but yes, it's basically two-finger thumb lead with some three-finger figures mixed in.

pinenut - Posted - 11/07/2025:  17:19:38

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjoboyd

I don't know that it has a particular name, but yes, it's basically two-finger thumb lead with some three-finger figures mixed in.

---

Hi Ethan,

Are you aware of any method books or books in general that use thumb-lead as the base?

Edited by - pinenut on 11/07/2025 17:20:37

banjoboyd - Posted - 11/07/2025:  17:40:31

Matt Brown's tab book is strictly two-finger thumb lead. I'm sure there are others, but once you understand the rudiments, I'm not sure additional tab is all that useful. Nick Hornbuckle's book is also worth checking out; that's like the opposite case, two fingers but in a very mixed style that sometimes sounds like three fingers. I don't know of resources specifically for this kind of old-time, thumb-lead, bluegrass-adjacent three finger playing. I'm sure people here can recommend players to check out. 

janolov - Posted - 11/07/2025:  23:53:25

Earl Scruggs started as two-finger picker (thumb lead) and found out that he could add the middle finger to get more interesting rhythms and rolls. I think his versions of Reuben and Cripple Creek is similar Groundhog.

Two other old players worth listening to is Obray Ramsey (youtu.be/LG4eFaWZnn0) and George Pegram (youtu.be/Kjkbo6iTfgs) 

Bob Buckingham - Posted - 11/08/2025:  04:53:31

quote:

---

Originally posted by janolov

Earl Scruggs started as two-finger picker (thumb lead) and found out that he could add the middle finger to get more interesting rhythms and rolls. I think his versions of Reuben and Cripple Creek is similar Groundhog.

Two other old players worth listening to is Obray Ramsey (youtu.be/LG4eFaWZnn0) and George Pegram (youtu.be/Kjkbo6iTfgs) 

---

And Ralph Stanley started as an index lead player who added his third finger, so his rolls always sounded different than Earl's.

jack_beuthin - Posted - 11/08/2025:  05:32:41

Check out George Pegram, a thumb-lead three finger picker who based his playing on the square roll and many variants of it.  The very first Rounder album was simply titled "George Pegram".  Art Rosenbaum described his style as "hellbent for leather".  Yup.

youtube.com/watch?v=Kjkbo6iTfgs

RB3 - Posted - 11/08/2025:  07:07:30

An Earl Scruggs arrangement by any other name is still "Scruggs Style".

banjoboyd - Posted - 11/08/2025:  07:30:50

quote:

---

Originally posted by janolov

Earl Scruggs started as two-finger picker (thumb lead) and found out that he could add the middle finger to get more interesting rhythms and rolls. I think his versions of Reuben and Cripple Creek is similar Groundhog.

Two other old players worth listening to is Obray Ramsey (youtu.be/LG4eFaWZnn0) and George Pegram (youtu.be/Kjkbo6iTfgs) 

---

Yes, Pegram was one of the players whose name escaped me. Check out Pickin' and Blowin': youtu.be/vr5RLWecLwc?si=khQQoa47k1-n1PHA

Old Hickory - Posted - 11/08/2025:  07:49:08

What Wayne said.

The tab shared here is as Scruggs as Scruggs could be. This is foundational Scruggs 3-finger.  Almost entirely "square roll" (TITM) and forward roll. Broken up every now and then with thumb-pinch-thumb-pinch on longer notes.

Same foundational technique as in Cripple Creek.

I can understand why one would see thumb lead in here. Earl did try to use his thumb for melody, so that's a real thing. But there's too much use of index and middle in addition to thumb for me to see this as any form of two-finger.

pinenut - Posted - 11/08/2025:  09:35:14

Thank you everyone for identifying thumb-lead, square rolls and giving sources.

I like this path; it's working.



The Keith "Groundhog" tab also plays well in claw-hammer. Thinking and looking at this leads to using claw-hammer tab for three-finger play. It seems to work and has the same flavor.



What is this called? How can it be refined? What is the learning progression?







I tested these loose rules on the tab below with promising results:

- assign the second finger to the first string

- assign the first finger to the second string

- thumb handles the rest,,, mostly

- for clawhammer tab mirror 5thstr drone notes (move them to the left)



"Soldier's Joy", "Frailing the 5-String Banjo", by: Barbara Koehler and Eric Muller

Edited by - pinenut on 11/08/2025 09:47:20

pinenut - Posted - 11/08/2025:  10:00:58

quote:

---

Originally posted by Old Hickory

What Wayne said.

The tab shared here is as Scruggs as Scruggs could be. This is foundational Scruggs 3-finger.  Almost entirely "square roll" (TITM) and forward roll. Broken up every now and then with thumb-pinch-thumb-pinch on longer notes.

1)  Same foundational technique as in Cripple Creek.

2)  I can understand why one would see thumb lead in here. Earl did try to use his thumb for melody, so that's a real thing. But there's too much use of index and middle in addition to thumb for me to see this as any form of two-finger.

---

@RB3 I think you meant to say, "A Bill Keith arrangement by any other name is still "Scruggs Style"." 

Hi Ken,

1)  right, I like that one and  @janolov mentioned "Reuben" too.   What other examples are there?

2)  This was not referenced as a form of two-finger.  The flavor and pace of the "Groundhog" tab is in line with typical play style of claw-hammer or more accurately two-finger.  I like it.

banjoboyd - Posted - 11/08/2025:  10:33:03

Kam, that is basically how I approach it but in an index-lead rather than thumb-lead way. I work through the tune as if I were only using 2 fingers, but with my middle finger handling the 1st string...thumb and index finger travel. Then I go back and figure out spots where I could throw in little 3-finger figures (IMTI / TMIT / MITM)...usually at the end of phrases leading to the downbeat or when the melody hangs on a note. The result is something that sounds mostly like two-finger but with little syncopated surprises thrown in. I don't use any tags/licks.  

RB3 - Posted - 11/08/2025:  11:10:52

pinenut,

I said what I meant to say.

It's widely known that Bill Keith provided the tablatures in the "Earl Scruggs And The 5-String Banjo" instruction book, but those are tablatures of arrangements of Earl Scruggs, not Bill Keith. I would also point out that the tablature you posted is different from the tablature that was included in the initial publication of the Scruggs instruction book. That means that the tablature you posted is an edited version of the tablature that was originally transcribed by Keith.

Old Hickory - Posted - 11/08/2025:  11:48:30

quote:

---

Originally posted by pinenut

Hi Ken,

1)   . . .  What other examples are there?

2)  This was not referenced as a form of two-finger. . . .

---

Kam:

1 - I'm not a serious enough student of Scruggs's body of work to know off the top of my head other songs of his that are as fundamental as this one. I do know Earl used a lot of thumb-index-thumb-middle and forward roll-- especially in his solos to vocal songs. I think it's how he got his thumb into the act.

2 - Ethan, in his first response, described the posted tab as "basically two-finger thumb lead with some three-finger figures mixed in." I disagree. There may very well be similarities between Scruggs's three-finger approach to this song and two-finger thumb lead. But I know nothing about TFTL, so I can't say. What I can say is another version of what I already said: every figure or pattern in here uses three fingers: mostly either T-I-T-M or T-I-M-T-I-M (this with a two-finger make-up at the beginning or end to provide a measure-filling 8 notes). See the last bit of G in the first line through the first half of the last measure of the second line. His playing throughout this song is so solidly three-finger, that in every sequence of four sixteenth notes he uses all three fingers.

Additional note: The arrangements were Earl Scuggs's. The transcriptions (tabs) of Earl's arrangements were Bill Keith's. Or later that other guy's.

banjoboyd - Posted - 11/08/2025:  14:53:31

Ken, I am coming at this from a decidedly non-bluegrass perspective, so I don't expect everyone to see things the same way. But I think there is some distinction to be made between figures that must be played with 3 fingers, and figures that can be played with 3 fingers. Square rolls, note-pinch, note-ditty are all common 2-finger figures. I think what Kam is recognizing as "different" (not necessarily atypical of Scruggs or bluegrass banjo in general) is the relative lack of extended forward/reverse rolls in favor of the aforementioned figures. This translates to more on-the-beat playing and less syncopation. Of course, it's a matter of degree, not type. 

pinenut - Posted - 11/08/2025:  19:47:32

quote:

Originally posted by banjoboyd

1)  Kam, that is basically how I approach it but in an index-lead rather than thumb-lead way. I work through the tune as if I were only using 2 fingers, but with my middle finger handling the 1st string...thumb and index finger travel. Then I go back and figure out spots where I could throw in little 3-finger figures (IMTI / TMIT / MITM)...usually at the end of phrases leading to the downbeat or when the melody hangs on a note. The result is something that sounds mostly like two-finger but with little syncopated surprises thrown in. I don't use any tags/licks.  

2)  Ken, I am coming at this from a decidedly non-bluegrass perspective, so I don't expect everyone to see things the same way. But I think there is some distinction to be made between figures that must be played with 3 fingers, and figures that can be played with 3 fingers. Square rolls, note-pinch, note-ditty are all common 2-finger figures. I think what Kam is recognizing as "different" (not necessarily atypical of Scruggs or bluegrass banjo in general) is the relative lack of extended forward/reverse rolls in favor of the aforementioned figures. This translates to more on-the-beat playing and less syncopation. Of course, it's a matter of degree, not type. 

1)  This fits with the "Soldier's Joy" example tab.  It appears to be finger lead, or at least it starts with the fingers and runs them more than the thumb. 

...it seems to be working per your description and giving the style that I am asking about. 

2)  Would this be the finished product of "straight" picking?

"straight picking", "Banjo Method C Tuning", p10, Frank Bradbury 

Edited by - pinenut on 11/08/2025 19:56:52

banjoboyd - Posted - 11/08/2025:  20:16:20

1) That "Soldier's Joy" tab was written with clawhammer in mind, but two-finger index lead is essentially the same thing. It's just picking up with the finger rather than striking down.



2) No, what Bradbury means by straight picking is simply that it doesn't use alternate picking. And alternate picking (which is introduced on p. 20) means playing the same string multiple times in a row using thumb-index-thumb-index or index-middle-index-middle. But that doesn't have anything to do with the rudiments of bluegrass or old-time playing.