skybc - Posted - 07/11/2025:  19:47:10

I’m new to banjo and have been playing a couple months now. I’m totally in love and practicing a couple hours a day.

I got a used Deering Sierra (built 2024 I believe) which generally sounds lovely, with the exception of the 3rd string.

The current strings are GHS Custom Light (10-11-12.5-20W-10). In troubleshooting I have recently replaced the 3rd string. For reference the Sierra comes standard with (10-11-13-21W-10).

1. The third string goes quite sharp as soon as the first fret. It’s noticeably distracting. It gets reasonable by 5th-7th fret and is basically ok by 12th fret. It’s very bad frets 1-3 to the point I’ll flatten the open string AND slightly sharpen the 2nd string just so they sound ok together when the 3rd is fretted. This makes the open string sound bad. Compromise.

I’ve played with bridge placement and that won’t solve it.

When I put a capo on the 2nd fret, the sharpness issue *almost* entirely disappears.

From this I have deduced that it’s probably that the nut slot is too high. I haven’t yet been able to find a local luthier to help but i’ve tried to contact the few i’ve heard of locally.

This is mainly FYI re: my question 2. however insights are welcome.

2. When using tunings that lower the 3rd string it just sounds dead awful. I am learning a couple tunes that call for the 3rd to be E instead of G and it just sounds dead, lifeless, and causes the sharpness issue to worsen.

For these tunes I have only been able to make them sound good if I tune every string higher. So for example I will just tune all strings up 3 steps so that the 3rd is a G again. This is not a great solution for obvious reasons as I miss the low sound of the tunes and in cases the other strings are getting tensioned beyond what feels good for them.

How can I make my 3rd string tuned down to E sound better? Could a high but slot be making it worse? Should I try a thicker string?

In searching the forum I saw some people will use a wound string for the 3rd but I (in Canada) can’t find anywhere to buy one, they’re hard to source even from the US.

itsnotyou - Posted - 07/11/2025:  21:10:38

Watch this video where Greg Deering goes over banjo setup.

youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DlTYqTR...mJq3vNPNk

Edited by - itsnotyou on 07/11/2025 21:12:27

itsnotyou - Posted - 07/12/2025:  03:47:52

Watch this video where Greg Deering explains banjo setup.
google.com/url?sa=t&source=web...8449&url=youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DlTYqTR...mJq3vNPNk

Wobba - Posted - 07/12/2025:  07:24:33

First of all, bridge placement, second of all, bridge placement. You don't just place the bridge straight on the head. You need to angle it to accomodate the increasing guage of the strings. This takes some time to do properly. You start by the initial placement of the bridge and the correct position on the head. This is done my measured the distance from the nut to the twelfth fret and this that same distance from the twelfth fret to the head were be will you bridge will sit. At first just place the bridge so that it is perfect staring, the exact same distance from both ends to the twelfth fret. Then you have to start checking the tuning of the strings. Get all the strings in tune when plucked open

Once you have your open strings plucked, it's time to get the intonation as best as you can. You do this by fretting the 1st string at the 12th fretting and checking if that note is in tune or not. When checking this way the string fretted at the 12th fret shoul be an octave higher than the open string plucked. If it's sharp, nudge the bridge towards the neck. If it's flat, nudge it towards the tail. Do this until you have the 1st string at the 12th fret in to. Again you'll have to check the 1st string plucked open. Should be in tune. What you want is for the first string to be in tune both open and fretted at the twelfth fret.

Next, go straign to you third string. Get it in tune open. Once it is in tune, fret it at the 12th fret. As with the 1st string, if it's sharp, move the birdge close to the neck and if it's flat move it closer to the tail. Now how you move it is very important. After getting the 1st string in tune, any other movement of the bridge should not affect the position of that end of the bridge, so what you need to be doing is holding the 1st string end of the bridge with one hand, and moving the other end of the bridge closer or farther. This will result in you bridge being at an angle. Adjust this until you get you 3rd string in tune both open and fretted at the 12th fret.

Now go back and check you 1st string open and fretted at the 12th fret to make sure you didn't move that end of the bridge inadvertently.

Now that the 1st and 3rd strings are in tune, tune up the 2nd and 4th strings open.
Because fretted string instruments use equal temperament, it is impossible to tune every string perfectly. There is always be a little dissonance. Modern Western music accepts this imperfect of fretted string instruments. Ask any guitarist. But doing what I discribed above will get you as close as possible to what you're looking for. The exact angle for a banjo will vary based on the scale length, string material and string gauge.

Now, you could make this a little better by getting a compensated bridge. There are a number of different types. You and do a Google search and acquire a couple. The setup with these would be done with the same steps outlined above.

Happy picking!

dfstd - Posted - 07/12/2025:  07:26:55

Thanks for mentioning that video. I was getting a broken link, but I found it in YouTube:

J.Albert - Posted - 07/12/2025:  11:57:56

5-string players have been troubled by intonation problems on the 3rd string since...

... well, since there were 5 strings.

Answer:

Compensated bridge.

Quickie solution:

TILT the bridge slightly.

Angle it so the 1st string scale is a little "shorter", and the 5th string scale is a little longer.

Arthur Hatfield used to make a great compensated bridge. He carved each one by hand and could even make them any height you wanted. Not sure if he's still doing that.

lightgauge - Posted - 07/12/2025:  12:20:43

Moving the bridge toward the neck makes a fretted note sharper. I find chiming at the 19th fret to be more accurate to my ear. Your description sounds more like a nut slot too high. A poorly intonated string usually sounds more dead to me.

Bart Veerman - Posted - 07/12/2025:  18:45:00

Fretting at the 1st making for sharps could mean the nut slots aren't deep enough. Welding tip cleaners come in handy to file them a bit deeper.

When that's looked after check to make sure the bridge is at the proper spot. If/when it is then chances are hugely unlikely that you need a compensated bridge, especially on a Sierra. Read up on it here:

banjobridge.com/br-05.htm

banjobridge.com/br-06.htm

steve davis - Posted - 07/14/2025:  06:43:25

Tuning down more easily sharps the fretted notes if the bridge isn't backed off a bit.
The string clearance over the top of the 1st fret is happiest at .011" static measurement without fretting anything.
All banjo intonations can be improved with a good compensated bridge.
My comper zeroes the open and fretted notes at the 12th fret which lends itself very well to not needing to retune after capoing.

A good compensated bridge isn't mandatory...it's just more trouble-free and creates sweeter notes when all other parameters are met such as 1st fret string clearance(nut slots) and bridge height.

banjoT1 - Posted - 07/14/2025:  13:07:40

FWIW, the poster is sort of close by when taking into account that we up here accept hundreds and hundreds of miles (or KMs) as a day drive. So, whether it's realistic or not for the OP to visit my shop, where I would be happy to help or set-up his banjo - but I've even offered to help tutor him to a fix via a Zoom or Facetime call - one-on-one.

As the replies above are very helpful, nonetheless, words can be difficult for some folks to actually visualize or follow - hence, Zoom/Ft tutoring offer.

Up to now - not a peep in reply but IMO I think that collectively we've kindly offered sufficient help. My post here is not meant to conclude the thread but just sayin'.

skybc - Posted - 07/15/2025:  10:13:47

Thanks to all of you who have taken the time to reply. I have read your comments carefully and appreciate the wisdom therein.



Although perhaps my post was a bit long, I didn't really see a direct answer to my "main" question which was with regard to getting a better tone with tunings lower than standard on the 3rd string. "How can I make my 3rd string tuned down to E sound better? Could a high but slot be making it worse? Should I try a thicker string?". To that end, a new set of strings just arrived yesterday (D'Addario Medium) which have a thicker 0.16 that I will try on the 3rd and see how it goes. I will report back. 

Although I see value in the comments mentioning bridge placement, as I said in my original post, I have tried changing bridge placement and I am unable to solve the 3rd string intonation issues with it. If I move the bridge more towards the tail, I can get slight improvement with the 3rd string (and then some others go flat) - but this improvement does not fix the obvious intonation issues. 

To say more on that point; I can have the bridge placed where: a) the 12th fret chime is perfectly in tune, b) the 12th fretted is in tune and c) the open string is in tune. Am I not correct to deduce that the bridge is well placed when this is the case? And yet as soon as hit the string at the first fret is very sharp. And very sharp at the 2nd and 3rd frets. Slightly less sharp moving up the neck to where by the 12th fret its back in tune. This behavior, combined with the fact that capo across the second eliminates the issue led me to believe it is more likely a high nut slot? Is my reasoning here unsound?

In any event, I had previously ordered a custom bridge from Tim Purcell and I will try it out today. As Bart said, I don't think I should need a compensated bridge to get a Sierra to sound good. I am sure no professional player (which I am not!) would tolerate it sounding like it does now. All the other strings sound great and have great intonation which also gives me some confidence the bridge is reasonably placed. 

So in sum - I am hopeful that a luthier will be able to diagnose/confirm the high nut slot (or other issue?) and improve intonation. In the mean time, I want to know how to get it sounding better when tuning down the 3rd string to E. To both ends, I will try a thicker string 0.16 and will also try the compensated bridge I got. Any comments on improving tone with lower tunings is welcome, and would a high nut slot exacerbate that lower tuning sounding bad?

With gratitude, 

Jeremy

 

Edited by - skybc on 07/15/2025 10:14:29

lightgauge - Posted - 07/15/2025:  12:57:13

In my comment, I stated that a poorly intonated string will sound more dead. Have you looked at string clearance above the first fret or just looked across the top of the strings in front of the nut to see if the third is higher? You can lay a straightedge or even a pencil across the strings in front of the nut and see if it touches all evenly or rocks on one. A larger string will likely sit even higher in the nut and may worsen your issue. Banjo T1 has offered help if needed.

banjoT1 - Posted - 07/15/2025:  18:08:31

1. This is not the purpose of this post but for general edification I can restate (see above) that I PM'd Jeremy a couple of days ago with my personal phone # and email address - then received a reply earlier today. So, he has two or three options to pursue - his choice of course.

2. TO Jeremy.....I often find under-performing banjos - either subtly or blatantly obvious - because head is not tensioned properly to the string set and tailpeice, OR overall 'Parts System'. One assumed 'rule of thumb' tension gauge (think dimes and quarters), or 'Drum Dial' tension measure, may not be optimal for your system of parts - so Jeremy.......have you critically checked, or had checked, the head tension?....and how solid the tailpeice is?. And, and,.....

Dan Gellert - Posted - 07/15/2025:  19:33:57

quote:

---

Originally posted by skybc

I’m new to banjo and have been playing a couple months now.

 

---

Nobody seems to be taking into account the very first sentence of your post.

My first thought is that those intonation problems are most likely caused by mashing down too hard on that third string, and/or pushing it a bit sideways, and/or too far behind the fret.  Rather, you might be doing that on all the strings, but the 3rd is the one that will be bent furthest sharp with any bit of excessive or misdirected fingering pressure.  With strings as light as you're using, (especially if you're tuned lower than standard!), you need to push each string STRAIGHT down, RIGHT behind the fret, using the VERY tip of the finger, with JUST BARELY ENOUGH pressure to sound the note clearly.  (And... if that string is sitting even a few thousandths higher at the nut than it needs to be, it may still sound a noticeable bit sharp when fingered at the first couple of frets!)

I've taught a lot of beginners, and I can't remember one who didn't have to spend at least a little serious practice time learning to control the force and the direction with which they stopped the strings.  And, I've had students who came to me with years of experience, but they had played with that "death grip" for so long that the habit was nearly unbreakable, and it had badly damaged their ability to play not only in tune, but in time.

skybc - Posted - 07/16/2025:  09:37:30

Dan - thanks for noting this I should have addressed it before. I am aware that only the lightest pressure needed should be used. My instrument definitely seems to be operating out of spec.

Unrelated - I’ll measure the string height above the frets and report back.

skybc - Posted - 07/16/2025:  09:41:33

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjoT1

2. TO Jeremy.....I often find under-performing banjos - either subtly or blatantly obvious - because head is not tensioned properly to the string set and tailpeice, OR overall 'Parts System'. One assumed 'rule of thumb' tension gauge (think dimes and quarters), or 'Drum Dial' tension measure, may not be optimal for your system of parts - so Jeremy.......have you critically checked, or had checked, the head tension?....and how solid the tailpeice is?. And, and,.....

---

I have not critically checked or had checked the head tension etc. I felt an instrument of the quality of the Sierra should have been set up well when sold to me although maybe I am assuming too much. I've also noted that the instrument sounds and behaves lovely in all other respects. 

 

when searching about the issue I was having I found some other posts about Sierra with but slot height that needed adjustment. The fact that the capo seems to eliminate the problem led me in the direction of my hypothesis.

i could be way off though, 

Dean T - Posted - 07/16/2025:  10:53:42

I think Deering errs on the side of caution, cutting their nuts a bit high. I’ve owned 3, and currently own two Sierras, as well as owning several other Deerings in the past. I played ignorant for several years, then one day read a thread like this. I never even considered strings going sharp in the first few frets… I’ll be darned, I got my tuner out and sure enough, sharp notes on the first fret. This launched me down the path of fine tuning nuts for less sharpness, and learning to live with knowing notes were a little sharp, even though I’m not at a level where I can even tell. Now I know it’s pretty normal, so when all else is checked and confirmed correct, you have the choice of getting nut files, and fine tuning things. Just as a conformation of the height of Deering factory nuts, I wore the frets out on my first Goodtime, and had it refretted with jumbo frets that were considerably taller than the originals… and the nut didn’t need to be replaced… in fact, intonation and sharp early fret notes were more accurate than before.

As for buying a banjo properly set up… one of the first things I learned in my banjo journey, is that banjos change constantly. Especially new ones. Temp change and humidity affect it. New heads loosen up and need tightened periodically in their first year. A banjo can buzz one day, and not the next. It can rattle one day, and not the next. I swear they are alive… and can have a very ornery attitude.

steve davis - Posted - 07/16/2025:  12:00:49

Banjos that are maintained don't change.
If the nut keeps the strings at a certain clearance over the 1st fret (mine is .011") ,the 7th fret dip is .015",the head tension stays (for instance) at G# to A and the bridge height isn't changed the banjo always plays and sounds the same.

The 2 big variables are the 7th fret dip and the head tension,though my head tension hasn't changed from G# in a couple of years.

Once things are stable don't touch a wrench or other tools to anything or change anything.

Dean T - Posted - 07/16/2025:  15:37:06

Steve, with respect, I beg to differ. A new head set to 91, will settle to about 89 in the first month. And after tensioning, will fall again in the first 6 months to a year. Bridges sag in the middle, how often do folks post about their third string mysterious start buzzing? Wood cold flows… necks that were tight will loosen as the co-rod washers sink into the rim. Shoes and their screws will sink into a wood rim and loosen up. Frets that were dressed perfectly from the factory, will sprout during a dry spell and draw blood. A neck and rim can swell in the heat and humidity, and choke out the tone. Just the experience of one, but the new banjos I’ve owned changed a lot. The older used banjos I’ve owned (and own), seem to stay put longer, but still need tweaking between the seasons in the Midwest climate. This is completely different to something like a Telecaster... which could survive a nuclear blast and still play fine. 

Edited by - Dean T on 07/16/2025 15:46:32

steve davis - Posted - 07/16/2025:  15:59:31

When I put on a new head it settles and stays in the first 2-3 weeks.
I check it from time to time and haven't found one to go loose after that initial settling.
The only things I've noticed changing are seasonal (twice a year) 7th fret bow and the occasional co-rod nut loosening.

No screws come loose on my bluegrass banjos.
I think if I were to mess with my head nuts they would change and resettle.
My banjos are very stable with a G# head that I never touch.
Jimmy Cox once told me that a drop of clear lacquer paint on the co rod threads will keep those nuts from backing off,but I tighten those enough so they can't change.
I can only speak from what I've learned since 1960.

I've had the same bridge on for 3 years with no change and I play every day.

Hoosieroldtime - Posted - 07/16/2025:  16:28:47

Pretty new to the banjo world here, but I put a compensated bridge where the half harmonic is over the 12th fret. Ish. Any intonation or dissonant issues are then because it's a banjo. Seems to work well.

Edited by - Hoosieroldtime on 07/16/2025 16:29:17

Dean T - Posted - 07/16/2025:  16:30:04

Steve, We are just going to have to accept our different experiences. I put a new head on my Sierra last winter, and still chasing the settle. Every single solitary bar none no exception commercial flat bridge i’ve ever owned, has sagged in the middle. And I’m anal about maintaining head tension. However, I have a Deering smile bridge from 2017 that is still perfect. Now I have smile bridges on all my banjos. I put washers under the screws on my wood-rim-with-shoes banjo, because the woods was so soft. It was made in 2023, and still trying to settle. I think it thinks it’s still a tree

Edited by - Dean T on 07/16/2025 16:32:17

banjoT1 - Posted - 07/16/2025:  16:32:00

I totally agree with everything Dean (above) says.



There's more in the details of what he says but then it becomes more of an "Assembly and Materials 101" class but i would say off the cuff that either many years of banjo experience - or a broad 'related' industrial career - or combination of both - enables a person to have an understanding in the 'behavior of materials' (and physical properties), and behavior of assemblies'.



My apologies given if sounding preachy, but among Dean's many goodly stated points I'll use his first one as an example - that of head 'tension' or 'deflection'.



That is, for molecular reasons (omitted here) I have consistently found that a head 'relaxes' after tightening or 'tensioning. Eventually, after repeated tweaking of head deflection (done as necessary for desired tone and playability) the molecules will say "OK, we are done with rebalancing our internal molecular forces so here's where we're going to stay but likely, all of us together will lose elasticity as we get older". The fact is, new-ish heads loosen as soon as they are tightened - provable by tone testing and I suppose by other sophisticated force meters.



Dean also mentions cold flow of wood material - yes, but cold flow of the lacquer or a poly finish is very visible at many places in and around a banjo.



IMO what concept Dean raised is way overlooked, or never considered, but I'll go out on a limb to suggest that either: 1) some/many (?) set-up folks fail to provide complete and knowledgeable service, or 2) the banjo owner/player fails to seek a periodic but thorough banjo inspection, retightening and commensurate readjusting.



......remember, this is simply one man's opinion and experience. You may offer alternate facts - anyway, thanks to Dean for the post.

Edited by - banjoT1 on 07/16/2025 16:34:51

steve davis - Posted - 07/16/2025:  16:38:58

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hoosieroldtime

Pretty new to the banjo world here, but I put a compensated bridge where the half harmonic is over the 12th fret. Ish. Any intonation or dissonant issues are then because it's a banjo. Seems to work well.

---

The correct way to locate a bridge is to play the 12th fret harmonic and then play  the fretted string at the 12th fret.

With a completely compensated bridge the 12th fret fretted note will be the same as the harmonic.

All harmonics will exactly match the open notes no matter where the bridge is placed.

steve davis - Posted - 07/16/2025:  16:42:39

All my words have been about 30s Mastertone style banjos with a tonering and 1 piece flange.

steen - Posted - 07/17/2025:  07:38:26

If you fret the third string between the second and third fret, the string should be as close to the first fret it can be WITHOUT touching it. Tuning a G-string down to E is a long way to go and the looser the string, the more sensitive it is to being stretched. Nut slots are often not optimal made. That is why the idea of a zero fret is not a bad idea. Steen

Dean T - Posted - 07/17/2025:  09:11:01

quote:

---

Originally posted by steen

...Nut slots are often not optimal made. That is why the idea of a zero fret is not a bad idea. 

---

Other than a few extra cents in fretwire, and little extra production time, is there any other reason zero frets aren't the norm? I had a zero fret guitar, and it was great.

steve davis - Posted - 07/17/2025:  17:28:26

It's quite simple to correctly notch a nut in a traditional neck.
I like the StewMac slotting saws for bridges and nuts.
A banjo string can be the "feeler gauge" to measure 1st fret clearance of '011"

awildman - Posted - 07/17/2025:  21:33:16

Check nut height (clearance over first fret). Of course, this might not be your only problem, but a high nut will magnify otherwise slight intonation problems. Especially relevant if you press the string down to the fretboard hard in the first couple frets.

skybc - Posted - 07/18/2025:  08:34:04

quote:

---

Originally posted by steen

If you fret the third string between the second and third fret, the string should be as close to the first fret it can be WITHOUT touching it. Tuning a G-string down to E is a long way to go and the looser the string, the more sensitive it is to being stretched. Nut slots are often not optimal made. That is why the idea of a zero fret is not a bad idea. Steen

---

When fretting the third (and other) strings between the second and third fret, the strings all seem to be just toughing or just minimally above the first fret. I would say they look like they are just touching. 

I've spent more time on testing. 

With a thickness gauge I took the following measurements. The margins are so small there is certainly some user error involved. 

Distance between Fret #1 and the string above it (in order of strings 1,2,3,4,5): .75mm,.70mm,.85mm,.70mm,NA

Distance between Fret #2 and the string above it (in order of strings 1,2,3,4,5): 1.5mm+,1.5mm-,1.5mm,1.5mm+,NA

Distance between Fret #12 and the string above it (in order of strings 1,2,3,4,5): 3.5mm,3.5mm-,3.5mm,3.5mm,2.0mm

Before replacing the 3rd string (with a .16 instead of .125), I placed a new Tim Purcell compensated bridge on. I spent a long time trying to optimize bridge placement. I read a lot from this website banjobridge.com/ before doing so. I took the time to adjust the bridge for each strong, and then to try and optimize position of mine. Ultimately I was able to locate a location where all of the strings play in tune while open, chiming the 12th, and fretting the 12th. There is very little compromise - the placement seems to do well for every string. However the 3rd string still goes lightly sharp, even fretted lightly. It is slightly more sharp at first few frets versus beyond the 5th. Furthermore, NO amount of bridge placement would adjust this out. For example moving the bridge further to the tail, I could not eliminate the sharpness, but I would get a position where the fretted 12th was woefully flat - confirming the placement too far to the rear. 

So what to make of this? Visually the 3rd string doesn't seem to be obviously higher than the other strings, but its the only one going sharp. Bridge placement seems not to be the cause. 

Next, in my quest to get a less dead sounding 3rd string tuned to E, I replaced the 3rd with a 0.16. I then reconfirmed bridge placement. The 0.16 sounds much better tuned to E however it is still a bit loose, and playing a that requires fretting 2 frets up on the third string - its still slightly sharp. The lower tuning does seem to slightly exacerbate the issue. 

I still think I need help with the issue. I have found a local luthier who can have a look in September for me. BanjoT1 has also kindly offered to help however I am reluctant to ship my banjo and to be parted with it and the ability to practice.