rhnewsome - Posted - 09/26/2011:  16:47:29

I have a Deering Sierra that I am having a setup problem with.  When I tune the 3rd string to "G" (open), it goes very sharp when fretted at the second fret ("A#").  I have tried several solutions, none of which seem to make much difference.   I have checked and reset the bridge.  I have tried to offset the bridge slightly, but this didn't seem to help.  I have checked and reset the bow in the neck to factory specs.  I have adjusted the action height to several different settings, none of which seemed to matter.

I am about out of ideas to try, thus this post.  My only current solution is to tune it slightly flat open and fret it lightly.  That helps, and sounds OK, but it seems like a workaround for something that I should be able to fix with the right setup.  I need some help here!!!!

Any suggestions would be appreciated. 

Thanks,

Richard

jbalch - Posted - 09/26/2011:  16:59:51

Intonation problems at the lower frets can sometimes be caused by action too high at the nut.  If the nut is too high, it may cause you to stretch the string out of tune when noting at the first few frets.

Try installing a capo at the first or second fret.  Then see if it plays in tune from that position. If it does, the nut might be your problem.

steve davis - Posted - 09/26/2011:  17:05:04

Using a tuner,compare the open notes to the 12th fret fretted notes.

If the open strings to pitch.0 on the tuner.

Play the fretted 12th fret notes and see where they are on the tuner.

If the tuner says the 12th fret notes are sharp,pull the bridge toward the tail piece about 1/8 inch at a time.



Every time you move the bridge,you must recheck the tuning of the open strings,then compare 12th fret notes,again.



With a straight bridge,you won't get all 0 to 0 comparisons,so you compromise some.

I make a very accurate compensated bridge that matches open and 12th fret comparisons.

PS...compare the open 5th string to the 5th at 17.

Edited by - steve davis on 09/26/2011 17:08:20

TXhookey - Posted - 09/26/2011:  17:41:21

I know this will sound strange but I had the same problem.  Slides on the 3rd sounded way to sharp.  I tightened my head up and the problem went away.  Unfortunately this made my banjo too bright to my liking so I had to rework my setup to compensate.

I already had a compensated bridge, so a compensated bridge will likely help.

More experienced folks than me can help explain, but the 3rd string 2nd fret seems to sound like a smashed cat when everything else on the banjo sounds fine.

J-Walk - Posted - 09/26/2011:  17:46:38

quote:

---

Originally posted by jbalch

Intonation problems at the lower frets can sometimes be caused by action too high at the nut.  If the nut is too high, it may cause you to stretch the string out of tune when noting at the first few frets.

Try installing a capo at the first or second fret.  Then see if it plays in tune from that position. If it does, the nut might be your problem.

 

---

Wouldn't a "zero fret" solve these types of problems? In other words, a fret positioned after the nut.

I've seen these on cheap guitars, but never on a banjo.

steve davis - Posted - 09/26/2011:  18:04:33

I like a .010 to .012 clearance from the top of the 1st fret to the strings.
This is a good action for not pulling the strings sharp.
Good point,Dave.
Zero frets work but are unnecessary,Mr.Walk.A low nut cut and bridge in the right place (one of my compensated bridges) works a treat.

The Colonel - Posted - 09/27/2011:  03:11:51

Same on my Goodtime 2 Special. Interested to read your responses.

Jonathan

jbalch - Posted - 09/27/2011:  05:03:53

String height at the nut is one of the most important and often overlooked aspects of set-up. It has a big impact on intonation and playability.   Many instrument manufacturers do not set the nut height for optimal playability.  It is usually left to the player or set-up luthier to make final adjustments based on individual preference. IMHO...string height at the nut is one of the most critical parts of set-up and can make all-the-difference-in-the-world.

Adjusting the height requires a few nut files in proper gauges, some patience, and a little experience.

Here is a recommended procedure:

1. IMPORTANT: Set your preferred head tension, install new strings (the type and gauge you plan to use),  if necessary- adjust neck angle and relief, bridge height and placement . In other words, set everything else the way you want it  to establish the string height over the neck  -    before working on the nut.

2. depress a string at the first fret and play it to be sure the sound is clear with no buzzing.

3. with the string held at the first fret, examine the amount of clearance achieved above the second fret.  This clearance provides a "benchmark".

4. examine the clearance of the same string  unfretted (open) over the first fret

5. If the clearance between the unfretted string and the first fret is much greater than the benchmark (see # 3 above),  file the nut slot to lower the string height.

6. Advice: 

Use a proper gauge nut file for each string,

make very small adjustments,

restring & check your work often,

be careful!

One file stroke too many will result in an annoying string buzz..

rexhunt - Posted - 09/27/2011:  06:29:41

I'm with John and the nut.  Is it only the third string?  Check to make sure the string is sitting all the way down in the groove - it may have been cut very precisely for light gauge strings.  We bought a cheap ukulele for the grandkids and the high nut made it impossible to play in tune.

Rex

starhopper - Posted - 09/27/2011:  09:26:12

I was having the very same issue with my Goodtime 2 openback and my Hartford banjo, so I figured it was either user error, or the light strings.  Actually, I think it's both.

I have found that part of the problem was that I was improperly fretting the string . I discovered that the closer to the fret I depress the string, the less issue I have with the note being sharp. This is especially true with light strings - medium seem to be more forgiving. (However, medium strings are not recommended for the Goodtime since it does not have a truss rod)

Being a  guitar player, I never had an issue with this, but I think that the combination of the light gauge strings and my improper fretting contributed to this. So, I have had to re-double my efforts to fret the string as close to the fret as I can. This seems to eliminate the problem.

Lyle

Edited by - starhopper on 09/27/2011 09:40:30

steve davis - Posted - 09/27/2011:  09:32:55

If you have to be careful how you play your banjo,your banjo needs work.

pfc54u - Posted - 09/27/2011:  15:32:02

Let's suppose for a moment that the problem with the 3rd string is not related to the height of the nut slots. Why is it that intonation at the 3rd string is often such an issue? I am beginning to suspect that it relates to particular string sets. Here is an example of string gauges: 10, 12, 16, 23, 10. Which of these strings has significantly more tension than the others. You've probably already guessed, but the answer is the 3rd string. What would happen to the intonation issues if you were to replace the 3rd string with a smaller gauge string? Notice that some string sets have rather different relative gauges. For example, the differences between the 2nd and 3rd strings are sometimes smaller.

I do not know the answer to this, but I thought that I would share an idea that might possibly explain this peculiarity.

jbalch - Posted - 09/27/2011:  16:02:34

quote:

---

Originally posted by pfc54u

Let's suppose for a moment that the problem with the 3rd string is not related to the height of the nut slots. Why is it that intonation at the 3rd string is often such an issue? I am beginning to suspect that it relates to particular string sets. Here is an example of string gauges: 10, 12, 16, 23, 10. Which of these strings has significantly more tension than the others. You've probably already guessed, but the answer is the 3rd string. What would happen to the intonation issues if you were to replace the 3rd string with a smaller gauge string? Notice that some string sets have rather different relative gauges. For example, the differences between the 2nd and 3rd strings are sometimes smaller.

I do not know the answer to this, but I thought that I would share an idea that might possibly explain this peculiarity.

---

 I think this is a reasonable question.  I find when using strings that are too light (for me...say: 9,11,13,20,9), I tend to play too hard and pull them out of tune in some chord positions. I have noticed a problem with the 3rd string in particular.

I prefer sets like the GHS pf150: ie: 10,12,14,22,10.  It is a small difference, but it improves my sound an playability.

I've also seen some individual strings that did not play in tune...just a bad string...or old and over-stretched. 

Edited by - jbalch on 09/27/2011 16:04:40

rhnewsome - Posted - 09/27/2011:  19:23:04

Thanks everyone.  I will checkout the nut, and consider the string theory.  I use GHS PF175 sets (11-12-13-22-11) on both my Sierra and Goodtime Classic.  I don't have the problem on the GT Classic, just the Sierra, but they are way different banjos. 

Give me a couple of days to try some of your suggestions and I will let you know if I make any new headway.

Again, thanks for the tips, I appreciate each and every suggestion.

Richard  

pfc54u - Posted - 09/27/2011:  19:38:50

quote:

---

Originally posted by rhnewsome

Thanks everyone.  I will checkout the nut, and consider the string theory.  I use GHS PF175 sets (11-12-13-22-11) on both my Sierra and Goodtime Classic.  I don't have the problem on the GT Classic, just the Sierra, but they are way different banjos. 

Give me a couple of days to try some of your suggestions and I will let you know if I make any new headway.

Again, thanks for the tips, I appreciate each and every suggestion.

Richard  

---

Given your string gauges, the string theory is most probably not the issue in your case. However, I still wonder if it applies to other cases of sharp 3rd strings.

starhopper - Posted - 09/28/2011:  02:33:16

I agree - with the string gauge you're using , I'd think the strings wouldn't be the issue.

Lyle

rhnewsome - Posted - 09/28/2011:  18:52:03

Good news, we have a solution.  After reading all of your suggestions, I took a closer look at the nut setup and realized that it was most likely the culprit.  The strings were set way to high in the nut, which was resulting in the strings having to stretch too far when fretted.  To give you some perspective, the string height above the fret line was probably double the distance that it should have been.  I  am not sure why it was most evident at the 3rd string, but it was.  I questioned Richie on how this could have happened, and outside the obvious answer that someone had done a very poor replacement of the nut at some point, he commented that sometimes they come from the manufacturer like this, with the intention that whoever does the initial setup will set it correctly as part of the process.  As hard as it is to believe, mine look factory original.

I  stopped by my local luthier, Richie Dotson of Acoustic Box, in Newport News, VA this afternoon and had him set it up properly.  Richie is a great guy, and an exceptionally skilled luthier.  I recommend you check out his website, Acousticbox.com.   He has some great videos of common banjo repairs and setups.  I especially enjoyed his video of making a replacement bone nut.  It really convinced me that the nut was the problem.   

Richie made the fix while I ran a couple of errands, and the end result was perfect.  Not only did it correct the original problem of the strings going sharp, but it also make the banjo a lot easier to play. It's not so much like a cheese slicer, now.  And a second benefit to going to Richie was he let me play his 1928 Gibson which was really cool.

Thanks to all who responded, with special  thanks to John for putting me on the right trail. 

Regards,

Richard  

rhnewsome - Posted - 09/28/2011:  19:04:16

We have a solution.  It was the nut setup.  The strings were probably twice the height above the fret line that they should have been.  This caused them to have to stretch too much when fretted, which resulted in them going sharp.

I took it to my local luthier, Richie Dotson of Acoustic Box in Newport News, VA.  He made the repair while I ran a couple of errands, and it is now perfect.  He lowered the string setting of the existing nut, and the original problem was fixed.  A side benefit was it made the banjo a lot easier to play. 

I recommend you check out Richie's web site (acousticbox.com).  He has lots of very useful information, and some really good repair videos.  It was his video of replacing a bone nut that really convinced me that was the problem.

Thanks to all who responded, with special thanks to John for pointing me in the right direction.  I hope this solution helps a few others, too

Regards,

Richard

starhopper - Posted - 09/29/2011:  04:09:19

rhnewsome - that's great news - and info that will come in handy!

Lyle

rexhunt - Posted - 09/29/2011:  04:28:03

quote:

---

Originally posted by rhnewsome

We have a solution.  It was the nut setup.  The strings were probably twice the height above the fret line that they should have been.  This caused them to have to stretch too much when fretted, which resulted in them going sharp.

I took it to my local luthier, Richie Dotson of Acoustic Box in Newport News, VA.  He made the repair while I ran a couple of errands, and it is now perfect.  He lowered the string setting of the existing nut, and the original problem was fixed.  A side benefit was it made the banjo a lot easier to play. 

I recommend you check out Richie's web site (acousticbox.com).  He has lots of very useful information, and some really good repair videos.  It was his video of replacing a bone nut that really convinced me that was the problem.

 

Thanks to all who responded, with special thanks to John for pointing me in the right direction.  I hope this solution helps a few others, too

Regards,

Richard

 

---

Glad you got it fixed.  I'm a bit surprised it was that far off on a Deering.  Did you buy this banjo new?  If it was the original nut, I think Deering would want to know about it.

Rex

steve davis - Posted - 09/29/2011:  05:17:15

quote:

---

Originally posted by pfc54u

Let's suppose for a moment that the problem with the 3rd string is not related to the height of the nut slots. Why is it that intonation at the 3rd string is often such an issue? I am beginning to suspect that it relates to particular string sets. Here is an example of string gauges: 10, 12, 16, 23, 10. Which of these strings has significantly more tension than the others. You've probably already guessed, but the answer is the 3rd string. What would happen to the intonation issues if you were to replace the 3rd string with a smaller gauge string? Notice that some string sets have rather different relative gauges. For example, the differences between the 2nd and 3rd strings are sometimes smaller.

I do not know the answer to this, but I thought that I would share an idea that might possibly explain this peculiarity.

---

 The issues with the 3rd string playing sharp have to do with

String height above 1st fret which is controlled by the depth of the nut slots.

Placement of the bridge on the head.(There is only one correct bridge location.)

Age of strings

Correct angle of nut slots

Fit of nut in the neck

Placement of frets in neck(Very rare problem)

I haven't seen gauge of strings as a problem in intonation.

pfc54u - Posted - 09/29/2011:  06:08:22

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

---

 The issues with the 3rd string playing sharp have to do with

String height above 1st fret which is controlled by the depth of the nut slots.

Placement of the bridge on the head.(There is only one correct bridge location.)

Age of strings

Correct angle of nut slots

Fit of nut in the neck

Placement of frets in neck(Very rare problem)

I haven't seen gauge of strings as a problem in intonation.

 

---

Since I am not a physicist, I would defer to them. I have, however, experimented with string weight (gauge) to influence compensation or string length. My experiments, crude as they are, suggest to me that tension is important. Of course, gauge is important in determining tension. Are there any physicists or engineers out there that can confirm or deny my tests?

steve davis - Posted - 09/29/2011:  06:50:50

I don't know what physicists or scientist are going to say about banjo strings,but the people with the best banjo answers are the ones that have a lot of banjo experience.

TXhookey - Posted - 09/29/2011:  07:03:12

I'm not a physicist but do have a banjo with a proper depth nut, I went from light strings to medium and got a bad 3rd string 2nd fret sound.  Sometimes it would sound sharp and sometimes it would just make a dead sound, that gave it a sharp sound.  I tightened the strings to a little sharp of open G and tightened the head and it went away. 

I wouldn't say gauge alone was the culprit, but it does seem string tension, gauge, and vibratory setting of the head could be a factor if only rarely.

bangertone - Posted - 09/29/2011:  07:38:00

I'm having major trouble in this area too. 2nd and 3rd strings are going way sharp in the first 4-5 frets. Then they start to reverse back about the 8th fret and as you get closer to the 12th fret they get back in tune and are spot on on the 12th fret. Bridge position is correct. A guy told me that my action is a little high but I'm not so sure. My action is 1.0mm at the nut, 1.5mm at the first fret and 4.1mm at the 12th fret. Would this be considered high action?
I also tried a compensated bridge but it did not work and it totally killed the tone, having said that it was a cheap bridge.
Anybody know of a high quality compensated bridge and where to get one?

wb4yal - Posted - 09/29/2011:  08:32:28

Hey Bangertone, I just added a compensated bridge made by Steve Davis (a Hangout member.) This bridge corrected my tuning issues and made my banjo sound ALIVE. I would highly recommend contacting Steve to get his help.

steve davis - Posted - 09/29/2011:  08:45:47

quote:

---

Originally posted by bangertone

I'm having major trouble in this area too. 2nd and 3rd strings are going way sharp in the first 4-5 frets. Then they start to reverse back about the 8th fret and as you get closer to the 12th fret they get back in tune and are spot on on the 12th fret. Bridge position is correct. A guy told me that my action is a little high but I'm not so sure. My action is 1.0mm at the nut, 1.5mm at the first fret and 4.1mm at the 12th fret. Would this be considered high action?

I also tried a compensated bridge but it did not work and it totally killed the tone, having said that it was a cheap bridge.

Anybody know of a high quality compensated bridge and where to get one?

---

 Yes,your action is too high to intonate correctly.

Make all measurements to the tops of frets...never to the fretboard.

My top of 1st fret to string clearance is .010 inches or the diameter of a 1st or 5th banjo string...pretty low,I guess,but a very good benchmark clearance for easy playing and correct intonation.

The measurement of the 1st fret to the strings is the basis for figuring  the depth of the nut slots.

The clearance from the top of the 22nd fret and the strings is 1/8 inch(.125) w/neck bow at 7th fret being .015 inch.

These settings all work in conjunction to produce an easy playing,well intonating banjo with a big,clear voice.

I'd be happy to send you one of my high quality compensated bridges,but you should first(or at the same tim, correct the slot depths in your nut.

My bridges aren't designed to fix unique intonation problems.

Unique intonation problems such as out of place frets or short or long fretboard ends should be fixed by a good luthier or different neck.

My bridges are designed to give more accurate fretted notes than any banjo with a straight bridge.

Edited by - steve davis on 09/29/2011 09:02:38

rhnewsome - Posted - 09/29/2011:  10:57:16

Rex,

I bought the banjo used, but the nut looked original.  Having said that, there is no way to tell for sure, and I have a hard time believing that whoever bought it new would play it for any length of time the way it was.  I don't really think that Deering shipped it this way, but have no way to tell.

bangertone - Posted - 09/29/2011:  19:06:52

Thanks for that wb4yal. Will try Steve and see how it goes.

steve davis - Posted - 09/29/2011:  20:51:06

If you do file nut slots(if necessary) don't take them all the way to .010 over 1st fret.
Go for .012
Almost as good/with a bit of wiggle room.