Brendanervin - Posted - 02/06/2025:  11:18:12

Howdy all,

First I'd like to thank everyone on bho for contributing to this very helpful and welcoming community. We're all very fortunate to have this wealth of knowledge available to us.

I first picked up the banjo three months ago and haven't really put it down since. I don't work much in the winter so playing at the banjo is really all I've been doing.
I started on scruggs for a week or two (did cripple creek with jim pankey) then started to dabble in clawhammer which immediately took over. I haven't felt any desire to put on picks since, I also much prefer the sound and flow of play.

I'm also interested in two finger and have been practicing some tunes that way but my rhythm sounds much better with overhand bum ditties, so I mostly do that.

After a couple weeks of youtube surfing I wanted to try something more structured and to have someone tell me if my technique was all wrong so I signed up for the Alison de Groot clawhammer course on ArtistWorks. It's been great, Alison is great with her video responses and always has some helpful input. I highly recommend this for anyone starting out, or anyone just wanting some input on their playing.

The course is somewhat based around playing with the fiddle backing tracks, but as someone who has no desire to play with others and doesn't use the recordings, it is still very helpful and enjoyable.

When I started the course, I was spending a lot of time just playing with the banjo and getting to know it, making up melodies etc.
Now I just find myself practicing the tunes that I'm learning, which is great fun, but I feel that I'm missing something that I was getting from the 'just playing around'. A sort of visceral understanding, a connection with the sounds I was making and with the instrument itself.

I'm making a point to gain a better understanding of music theory. Eli Gilbert's videos are helpful, I'm also on Hilarie's patreon, I find her very enjoyable to watch and the way she teaches clicks well with me. But that's mostly just me learning her arrangements to tunes, I'm getting good at memorizing songs note for note, it's fun, challenging and rewarding, but not really what I want to be doing.

I'm hoping to start to be able to make my own arrangements and was working on some simple ones in 2ftl and overhand (will the circle, pretty polly etc). I found it difficult but enjoyable, though I was often filled with doubt as to weather they 'work' with the timing etc. Without tabbing it all out, I want to know if they work musically, counting '1-and-2-and-a' or whatever helps a lot but it still feels like I'm missing something that would make it all so much easier.

Will I naturally develop an ear for creating arrangements that add up in terms of timing? It feels like I often loose the melody, or get ahead or behind of the lyrics somehow. I haven't been working on my own arrangements for a couple weeks now, feels like I'm trying to build a structure without a basic understanding of the laws of physics. But people were building structures before Issac Newton, and we've been making music long before we were talking about musical theory. Am I overthinking it or is there a rulebook I should familiarize myself with? I know basic theory, 4 beats a bar 4/4 etc, I can count things out fine and play from tab fine. It's things like: should I finish this measure with a ditty or a melody note? Let the note ring out or squeeze it to the one before it with a hammer on then fill the gap with a ditty? Why does that sound wrong when I play it? Or maybe it sounds great when I play it but now the words sound like they're in the wrong place if I try to sing along.

I struggle with singing along, If the melody notes in a song are clear I can sing but too much decoration and I lose myself. If I learnt a song from building around the melody I can sing, or from a video where they sang lyrics when teaching the song, but if I learn from tab or an arrangement that was presented without lyrics, I find it very difficult to add in the lyrics afterwards. For example, I play this 'Undone in sorrow' arrangement, I know the tune and lyrics well, but since I learnt it from tab I can't seem to plug the words in, except those that are on clear melody notes. Same with 'trouble on my mind'.

That leads my to my next question: am I focusing too much on learning new songs? Should I just be playing around more or maybe spending time working on some of the ones I've learned? I know I should be, but the trouble is, I just enjoy learning new songs so damn much!
It's a real thrill/struggle, then at the end of the day, I've memorized something that sounds good when someone else plays it, so I feel a little closer to becoming a competent player. I must have 20 tunes memorized now, none of which sound good, maybe Undone in sorrow is starting to sound okay on a good day.

Frustration only comes when I'm trying to work on and improve what I've already memorized, when I feel that despite my best efforts, they still sound crap. So I mostly just learn new stuff to keep my confidence up. I still work on nearly every song I've learned everyday, I just don't 'try' and make them better, just play it once or twice and maybe go over some choppy measures for a while until they iron out a bit, then on to the next tune. Is this bad practice?

My accuracy is still poor, timing as well. My reasoning is that at this point, it doesn't really matter what I'm doing so long as it's with a banjo in my hand, I will be improving as a player.
My goal is to be able to play the music I want to hear and to make my own tunes from taking the sounds I like and putting them together. Big fan of the 'cold frosty morn' and 'Richmond falls' modal sounds. So trying to learn some I like (they're hard!) Little Sadie is sounding okay sometimes.
I figure if I just learn a bunch of tunes that I like, I'll be well equipped to hack them up and build my own.

I'm not bad at learning from tab but I really don't want to do that anymore. My brain seems to remember tunes depending on how I learnt them.
When I play Undone in sorrow, bits of the tab are often visually in my head. But the tune 'going across the mountain' plays itself as I think or sing the lyrics. For others songs I play, my mind is filled with the words that the instructor was saying at the time I was learning it "bumditty bumditty-dropthumb bum bum" or what have you.

Trouble is, learning from tab is more convenient than videos for me. I've no computer and poor service on my phone so it's looking at a tiny screen with lots of buffering time to wait, or just having the paper in front of me. Still feels unnatural though, I'd like to be learning from audio recordings and/or improvising my own stuff.

I really like Josh's brainjo stuff and his teaching and attitude in general but it's all so tabby. Signing up for brainjo wouldn't likely help me in my goal of getting away from tabs.

Wow this is getting long, sorry folks, bare with me, just figure I should get it all out there.

I'm in no rush to sound great (like it would help) but I want to make sure I'm not doing myself a disservice by neglecting an area of practice that would benefit me right now. The reason I don't spend more time working out my own arrangements is that it takes lots of time going over the same notes slowly. Time that, if spent going over sourwood mountain again and again, would probably result in a noticeable improvement in the way it sounds, as well as my accuracy and timing.
I play with a metronome sometimes.



I don't really do chords aside from in the songs I play. I know 145 for cc and g but not their note names. Am I at the point where I should be doing scales and stuff like that? I don't think I've so much as looked at a frett above 7. I'd like to feel more at home all along the fingerboard and in different tunings.
There is also the mystery of how chords and notes and everything links together somehow. I'm going to give Eli's theory videos another watch, lots went over my head it seems.

Although at this point, I often wonder if it's really that helpful for me to know the names of the notes rather than just how to make the sounds I'm looking for, like for learning songs by ear, is it helpful to know the letters?

I don't spend any time trying to learn songs by ear even though this is all I want to be doing. It's just so damn hard at this point, compounded with my terrible timing and right hand accuracy, I figured for now I'd just concentrate on building muscle memory by playing tunes note for note. When I get to a point when it starts to sound good and doesn't take so much concentration, it should be easier to pick out melodies and make arrangements around them. Have I got it all wrong?

Anyhow, thanks for reading. I'd be grateful for any advice anyone has to offer. As the weather improves I'll be spending more time with the chainsaw in my hands then with the banjo, so I want to make sure that the time I spend in practice is getting me closer to my goal, rather than just me learning how do what the tab or video says without really understanding the music or instrument.

airport-security - Posted - 02/06/2025:  11:21:13

Just practice hitting the wall with the banjo, until you get it just so, edgewise, so as to achieve rapid unscheduled disassembly. After that, your practice problems should go away completely.

Brendanervin - Posted - 02/06/2025:  11:32:55

Good old percussive maintenance 

quote:

---

Originally posted by airport-security

Just practice hitting the wall with the banjo, until you get it just so, edgewise, so as to achieve rapid unscheduled disassembly. After that, your practice problems should go away completely.

---

pinenut - Posted - 02/06/2025:  12:20:19

Don't listen to them (aackk, you guys are rotten little devils ).

Everyone that plays, thinks about or struggles with some portion of what you have described (depending on where they are existing at the time). 

There are only two kinds of rider: those who have been down and those that will.

"I struggle with singing along, If the melody notes in a song are clear I can sing but too much decoration and I lose myself."

For me, some tunes are easy to sing along with and some are hard (no rhyme or reason, dunno).   If I can't, at least, sing along in my head; the tune is broken and the timing, emphasis, etc etc needs repair.  I steer clear of decoration until I have the basics of a tune worked out. 

If a tune isn't working for me, I set it aside and pursue what works for me right now; the ones I want eventually come around.

Edited by - pinenut on 02/06/2025 12:25:57

Bill Rogers - Posted - 02/06/2025:  12:23:24

Each of us has had to find his or her own way. All I can tell you is what worked for me—in the days when there was the Seeger book and a scattered selection of records. I did not (and do not) read tab or music, so it was by ear with a couple of informal lessons with a local player. Lots of practice. I found that listening to lps at half speed helped, as, of course, did repetition. I also did best by working on one tune at a time until I could play it up to speed; then on to the next, and starting my practices by going through tunes I’d learned. … I’m sure modern learning aids, both audio and video, would have got me there somewhat more quickly, but nothing beats practice. Importantly, I did not work on technique piecemeal. If I needed a new technique to play a tune, I learned it in context of that tune. So once I had the tune down, I also could use whatever technique I’d picked up for other material. To this day I use standard C tuning capoed up 2 frets for almost all my D tunes, a holdover from the Seeger book. … Anyhow, that’s what worked for me. I think the relative lack of resources back in the 1960s may have kept me from being overwhelmed by various learning methods and heading down blind alleys. If I have one piece of advice to give out of all that, it is staying with one tune at a time until you have really learned it. That avoids “knowing” a bunch of tunes, none of which you can really play all the way through up to speed. All this is FWIW. I may—or may not—offer some ideas that will work for you.

Eulalie - Posted - 02/06/2025:  12:27:00

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brendanervin

 

Frustration only comes when I'm trying to work on and improve what I've already memorized, when I feel that despite my best efforts, they still sound crap. So I mostly just learn new stuff to keep my confidence up. I still work on nearly every song I've learned everyday, I just don't 'try' and make them better, just play it once or twice and maybe go over some choppy measures for a while until they iron out a bit, then on to the next tune. Is this bad practice?

 

Yes, that was a lengthy rant.  You expressed frustration over what we all probably have to go through in order to gain some proficiency on your instrument.  I clipped a quote from your dissertation that may represent one of the major hurdles to improving.

For many players, the primary impediment to improvement is flitting from one tune to another instead of investing in mastering one or two pieces.  This is a difficult thing for everyone because we naturally crave variety.  But it's worse than ever in our current age where attention spans have been eroded by design.  Nearly all that stuff you scroll through on your phone has been crafted by marketing psychologists who know what to do to keep you scrolling and clicking.

The best thing you can do is commit to working on a single piece for a single day.  Play only that piece—using a metronome—until you can play it perfectly from memory.  Then start working on variations, beginning with simple ornaments like hammers or pull-offs.  If you succeed, commit to working on a different tune the same way for your next practice session.

By the way, you mention that you have no interest in playing with others.  This is a mistake in my opinion because playing with others is the best way to get feedback, and the best route to improvement. 

Brendanervin - Posted - 02/06/2025:  12:52:31

Thanks for all the great replies! Yes I think that's exactly what I need to hear regarding working on one tune at a time and taking the time to get it right before moving on.
I have been chasing the cheap thrills and somewhat avoiding the actual work. Okay, one a day, that'll be a big change but with two veteran players telling me the same thing I must abide.

Brendanervin - Posted - 02/06/2025:  13:08:33

I don't think I can play any up to speed yet but some are close. This seems daunting but I'll definitely heed your advice and chose one to work on until it actually sounds good. Thanks

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bill Rogers

Each of us has had to find his or her own way. All I can tell you is what worked for me—in the days when there was the Seeger book and a scattered selection of records. I did not (and do not) read tab or music, so it was by ear with a couple of informal lessons with a local player. Lots of practice. I found that listening to lps at half speed helped, as, of course, did repetition. I also did best by working on one tune at a time until I could play it up to speed; then on to the next, and starting my practices by going through tunes I’d learned. … I’m sure modern learning aids, both audio and video, would have got me there somewhat more quickly, but nothing beats practice. Importantly, I did not work on technique piecemeal. If I needed a new technique to play a tune, I learned it in context of that tune. So once I had the tune down, I also could use whatever technique I’d picked up for other material. To this day I use standard C tuning capoed up 2 frets for almost all my D tunes, a holdover from the Seeger book. … Anyhow, that’s what worked for me. I think the relative lack of resources back in the 1960s may have kept me from being overwhelmed by various learning methods and heading down blind alleys. If I have one piece of advice to give out of all that, it is staying with one tune at a time until you have really learned it. That avoids “knowing” a bunch of tunes, none of which you can really play all the way through up to speed. All this is FWIW. I may—or may not—offer some ideas that will work for you.

---

Brendanervin - Posted - 02/06/2025:  13:18:16

So it really is just a matter of trying to feel out the building of a tune around a melody by trial and error based on what sounds right. I was worried that was case, was hoping for a rule book haha.  "Emphasis" was a work that stuck out to me. That's something I haven't been considering,

quote:

---

Originally posted by pinenut

   If I can't, at least, sing along in my head; the tune is broken and the timing, emphasis, etc etc needs repair.  I steer clear of decoration until I have the basics of a tune worked out. 

If a tune isn't working for me, I set it aside and pursue what works for me right now; the ones I want eventually come around.

 

---

dbrooks - Posted - 02/06/2025:  13:23:04

You have gotten a smorgasbord of advice, and that is to be expected since we have all had our little detours as we have moved down this path.  A couple of thoughts:

You have some excellent mentors in Alison de Groot and Hilarie.  Seek and try their advice on some of your questions.

If tab doesn't work for you, even that recognition is progress.  I have written a lot of tabs but mostly to figure an arrangement I can play in the volunteer stringband at our weekly contra dances.  I practice to get away from the tab and get the tune in my head.I don't play from tab.   If I can hear the tune in my head or from the fiddle, I can play it.  Often , when a tune is called, the name doesn't take me directly to the melody.  I might have to hear the fiddle play a little.

Playing with others is a huge help for most people.  You pick up hearing the chord changes and get a better sense of the structure of a tune.  For dances, that's usually 8 measure played twice in Part A and 8 measures played twice in Part B.  Your playing partners are taking care of that. You begin also to recognize and appreciate how often parts of a tune are repeated and recycled.  Find a beginners jam to start with.  In Louisville, the volunteer stringband for the dances welcomes beginners to sit in the back row or wherever and play along.  A local dulcimer group may be a good resource.  They tend to play at slow tempos with most of their repertoire in the key of D.

Listening to a lot of music helps also. The fiddle is the heart of an ensemble and the banjo usually will do what will support the fiddle.  It may be chording along or playing a rhythmic melody built on the key notes in the tune.

Make good us of the slowdown feature on YouTube (under the 'gear' icon) hear and play along with a tune that works for you.

You certainly have enthusiasm for the banjo.  NOw you should get to be equally enthusiastic about some tunes.

David

Owen - Posted - 02/06/2025:  13:40:54

What's been the advice of your online teachers?

Brendanervin - Posted - 02/06/2025:  13:52:05

Thanks David, it's not that I'm against the idea of playing with others at some point but there aren't really many options open to me out here. Nearest town of a few thousand is 30 mins away and as far as I can tell there are no old time or bluegrass jams around there. There is another town a little further away that has some music sometimes but nothing came up in my searches. I know there was a bluegrass festival a few years ago a couple counties over, might be worth getting in contact with them to see if they're doing it again sometime. 

quote:

---

Originally posted by dbrooks

Playing with others is a huge help for most people.  You pick up hearing the chord changes and get a better sense of the structure of a tune.  For dances, that's usually 8 measure played twice in Part A and 8 measures played twice in Part B.  Your playing partners are taking care of that. You begin also to recognize and appreciate how often parts of a tune are repeated and recycled.  Find a beginners jam to start with.  In Louisville, the volunteer stringband for the dances welcomes beginners to sit in the back row or wherever and play along.  A local dulcimer group may be a good resource.  They tend to play at slow tempos with most of their repertoire in the key

---

Brendanervin - Posted - 02/06/2025:  14:00:37

I haven't been in communication with Hilarie yet, just learning songs from her videos. Alison hasn't yet told me that I should stop moving forward and play what I've learned until it's better. Though, I suspect she thinks it but doesn't say so because she doesn't want to discourage me maybe. Other peoples videos submissions are definitely a lot better sounding than mine haha.  I'm going to stop collecting new songs (and old banjos) for a while

quote:

---

Originally posted by Owen

What's been the advice of your online teachers?

---

Edited by - Brendanervin on 02/06/2025 14:02:55

Eulalie - Posted - 02/06/2025:  14:05:21

quote:Originally posted by Brendanervin

Thanks David, it's not that I'm against the idea of playing with others at some point but there aren't really many options open to me out here. Nearest town of a few thousand is 30 mins away and as far as I can tell there are no old time or bluegrass jams around there. There is another town a little further away that has some music sometimes but nothing came up in my searches. I know there was a bluegrass festival a few years ago a couple counties over, might be worth getting in contact with them to see if they're doing it again sometime.

================

Your tag indicates that you're in Nova Scotia.  My old friend Stephen "Sammy" Lind lives in Nova Scotia and he's a great banjo player and a nice person.  You might look him up for some in-person pointers.

Brendanervin - Posted - 02/06/2025:  14:16:27

Amazing, thanks Eulalie! I just looked him up and it appears he lives in Halifax, less than a couple hours away. I think I'll get in contact sometime soon and see about planning a trip up there. 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eulalie

quote:Originally posted by Brendanervi

Your tag indicates that you're in Nova Scotia.  My old friend Stephen "Sammy" Lind lives in Nova Scotia and he's a great banjo player and a nice person.  You might look him up for some in-person pointers.

---

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 02/06/2025:  16:59:06

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brendanervin

Now I just find myself practicing the tunes that I'm learning, which is great fun, but I feel that I'm missing something that I was getting from the 'just playing around'. A sort of visceral understanding, a connection with the sounds I was making and with the instrument itself.

I'm making a point to gain a better understanding of music theory.

---

Here's one of my many archived posts inre to playing by ear

banjohangout.org/archive/358600

banjoboyd - Posted - 02/06/2025:  19:36:46

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brendanervin

My goal is to be able to play the music I want to hear and to make my own tunes from taking the sounds I like and putting them together.



Anyhow, thanks for reading. I'd be grateful for any advice anyone has to offer. As the weather improves I'll be spending more time with the chainsaw in my hands then with the banjo, so I want to make sure that the time I spend in practice is getting me closer to my goal, rather than just me learning how do what the tab or video says without really understanding the music or instrument.

 

---

If you truly know what you want to hear, exactly and explicitly, what do you think is stopping you from just making it happen? How do you suppose one goes about obtaining such an understanding of the music or instrument? 



Those are semi-rhetorical questions. I promise, I'm not being obtuse. I think these are things worth reflecting on for any musician at any point along their musical journey. 



I could throw a lot of advice at you, but the main theme is really just "do more music stuff." For someone who has only been playing for 3 months, you are way overthinking it. If you can already memorize and play through basic tunes with decent sound quality, you are doing fine. 



Home practice is good. Lessons are good. Learning by ear is good. Learning from tab/notation is good. Playing music with other people is good (and it doesn't have to be old-time/bluegrass). Making your own arrangements or even writing original material is good. Simply talking about music with other people is good. But none of these things on their own will make you a good player. 



 

KCJones - Posted - 02/06/2025:  20:16:08

If you put as much energy into practice as you did writing that, you'll do fine. Know this: reading and writing on this website will have little-to-no impact on your progress, except to distract and slow you down. My advice is to get a book, a DVD, and a portable player. Remove all internet connected devices from your practice area. Then get to work.

Edited by - KCJones on 02/06/2025 20:17:17

Brendanervin - Posted - 02/07/2025:  03:13:41

Thanks,

That emotive chart is very interesting, I was noticing how all the different chords I would make instilled different emotive reactions in me. Never would have thought that other people's perceptions of them would be so similar!

The audio file is still downloading.

quote:

---

Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

quote:

---

Here's one of my many archived posts inre to playing by ear

 

banjohangout.org/archive/358600

 

---

Brendanervin - Posted - 02/07/2025:  03:34:59

Thanks KCJones, 

I just started typing and it all came pouring out haha.

 I don't really spend much time online, which is mostly why I picked up the banjo in the first place, I wanted something to break up the many hours of sitting in silence, something that wasn't electric. 

 I find screens nauseating, so I got myself a mini thermal printer so I could have tabs without spending loads on books. Got a pile of them now but they're mostly memorized, I still keep them around to write down any variations I'm trying out.

Not sure I'd have enough electricity to run one of those portable DVD players, I'm 12v solar with two batteries, I can just about charge my phone and keep some lights on. It's a good idea, but less so for me.

Don't worry, I'm thoroughly "unplugged" hahaha.

quote:

---

Originally posted by KCJones

If you put as much energy into practice as you did writing that, you'll do fine. Know this: reading and writing on this website will have little-to-no impact on your progress, except to distract and slow you down. My advice is to get a book, a DVD, and a portable player. Remove all internet connected devices from your practice area. Then get to work.

---

Brendanervin - Posted - 02/07/2025:  03:41:49

what do you think is stopping you from just making it happen? 

When you put it that way, at this point, nothing. I've got a basic understanding of enough techniques and licks or whatever that could probably make up something that I'd have fun with. 

How do you suppose one goes about obtaining such an understanding of the music or instrument? 

I'd been taking the approach of 'learn lots of songs and notice what is similar and different about them, how they sound, how they are played, looking for patterns that are common to the music I like.

I definitely overthink everything, but I wouldn't have it any other way!

"With decent sound quality" 

Now this is where I should spend more attention, I've been going for quantity of notes memorized and speed of play. Would be nice to get it sounding good. That's what I'm working on now after getting all this great advice like working on one tune a day. This is forcing me to experiment with making my own variations at least, gets me a little closer to making my own arrangements as I familiarize myself with what sounds good.

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjoboyd

quote:

---

 

If you truly know what you want to hear, exactly and explicitly, what do you think is stopping you from just making it happen? How do you suppose one goes about obtaining such an understanding of the music or 

 

---

joanofthejungle - Posted - 02/14/2025:  20:30:37

I think there is no substitute for private lessons from a good banjo teacher. Tell them what your goals are, and they should be able to help you reach them. My banjo teacher is constantly assessing and redirecting me, while keeping me from going down rabbit holes that hinder my progress. If you're concerned about using your practice time efficiently, I think a good private teacher is the way to go. Also, in person beats online.

H Kimball - Posted - 02/15/2025:  06:50:27

No substitute for one-on-one lessons! Fortunately you can now do this online. Immediate feedback worth the investment you make in Private lessons. Check out your fellow Canadian, Chris Coole's website- chriscoole.com/home
One of his online workshops "Practice to Improve" I highly recommend

Tunngavik - Posted - 02/15/2025:  06:58:50

quote: Ditto. Agree completely. Ten years of practise and my most important take away is quality not quantity. An analogy would be They say you only have time and energy as you get older to cultivate perhaps three or four close friends. Same with tunes. Forget that "OK now on to the next tune" urge. Make close, intimate friends with a few favourite tunes and learn them to perfection - your ear will tell you when you've reached that point. It will be sweet music to your ears.

---

Originally posted by Eulalie

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brendanervin

 

Frustration only comes when I'm trying to work on and improve what I've already memorized, when I feel that despite my best efforts, they still sound crap. So I mostly just learn new stuff to keep my confidence up. I still work on nearly every song I've learned everyday, I just don't 'try' and make them better, just play it once or twice and maybe go over some choppy measures for a while until they iron out a bit, then on to the next tune. Is this bad practice?

 

Yes, that was a lengthy rant.  You expressed frustration over what we all probably have to go through in order to gain some proficiency on your instrument.  I clipped a quote from your dissertation that may represent one of the major hurdles to improving.

For many players, the primary impediment to improvement is flitting from one tune to another instead of investing in mastering one or two pieces.  This is a difficult thing for everyone because we naturally crave variety.  But it's worse than ever in our current age where attention spans have been eroded by design.  Nearly all that stuff you scroll through on your phone has been crafted by marketing psychologists who know what to do to keep you scrolling and clicking.

The best thing you can do is commit to working on a single piece for a single day.  Play only that piece—using a metronome—until you can play it perfectly from memory.  Then start working on variations, beginning with simple ornaments like hammers or pull-offs.  If you succeed, commit to working on a different tune the same way for your next practice session.

By the way, you mention that you have no interest in playing with others.  This is a mistake in my opinion because playing with others is the best way to get feedback, and the best route to improvement. 

---

burnttoastbanjo - Posted - 02/15/2025:  10:52:41

Well you’ve brought up notions in your post and as many have sort of said, there is no one true WAY. For a Zen type response I’d say my way probably isn’t your way as we are all so very different. I’m self taught mostly but there have been many book purchases (most have a lot of tabs) I’ve had good and bad luck with tabs and over time I think I’ve figured out why. I’m 71and been picking for 51 yrs. Now when I practice I do one or the other, that is play tunes for the fun of playing along and the enjoyment of just playing. This of course also involves obviously, but maybe not consciously stewing about it, things like timing and your picking accuracy, anticipating chord changes and being conscious of your tone and volume being consistently consistent. The other type of practice is well, actual technical practice.

When I first started learning all I did was practice rolls over and over and over alternating between forward and backward and alternating thumb while changing patterns trying to be smooth and concise in the process. After a while to break up the monotony I started doing chord changes with the rolls. Yes sometimes incredibly boring and then at some point you realize that the rolls and chord changes are fitting and sounding somewhat song like. At this point you are on your way to doing/playing anything you want as in making your own sounds/songs. Just to double back here I keep these practice goals separate even though musically they are very much connected.

So anyway that’s my advice. For better technique and fingering decisions have a practice time that’s maybe more like doing homework than banjo playing and work on those types of issues you’re having and feel you need to address. For ear training and the playing part of being a player I like to pick along with tunes that I like to play with and believe me that’s wide open. I don’t put any limits on what genre I might want to dilly dally in but that’s my thing. But that’s a different time of day and I’m in a different mood and maybe a beer or two. As I read your post it seemed like you were all over the place all at once. That’s my take, you seem to have the desire so ride that train and enjoy the journey.

bosborne - Posted - 02/15/2025:  13:15:20

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brendanervin

Howdy all,





I struggle with singing along, If the melody notes in a song are clear I can sing but too much decoration and I lose myself. If I learnt a song from building around the melody I can sing, or from a video where they sang lyrics when teaching the song, but if I learn from tab or an arrangement that was presented without lyrics, I find it very difficult to add in the lyrics afterwards. For example, I play this 'Undone in sorrow' arrangement, I know the tune and lyrics well, but since I learnt it from tab I can't seem to plug the words in, except those that are on clear melody notes. Same with 'trouble on my mind'.

 

---

Brendan,

If you're aiming to sing and play keep the playing very simple. As simple as you can, really, just patterns (rolls, in the 3-finger world), not melodies. Remember that when you sing and play people are paying attention to your voice first, your playing just needs to sound solid and steady underneath your singing. You said you use the metronome. Excellent! Every practice spend some time with it, just getting a feel for steady playing, at different speeds. 

Brian 

Edited by - bosborne on 02/15/2025 13:29:09

Banjoezzie - Posted - 02/15/2025:  14:22:22

Brenden,

My husband and I lived in fairly remote Alaska for 20 years. It was impossible to find folks to play music. So I found songs or tunes I truly loved and played along with recordings,

Many years later (after not playing for 20+ years and leaving Alaska) we play with friends perhaps 4 or 5 times a week and I have found improvement that I could never achieve playing alone. Really solicit anyone (perhaps offer your home) regardless of instrument they play to join you. We play with guitars, ukes, fiddles, mandolins, drums, occasional flute and it does not matter what ttype music. It gets your brain active and even if you dont play an occasional song but perhaps sing, you will improve, don’t fall into the trap that you are not good enough to play with others - we sought out and found folks that dont give a fig about your playing ability. The experts take the lead and we can just play quietly or not at all. We are still learning and appreciating music.

Brendanervin - Posted - 02/15/2025:  16:09:49

Thanks Joan,

I'd agree with you there, private lessons are definitely something I want to do sometime soon. Can't seem to find anyone anywhere close to me though. Might start looking into some online options

quote:

---

Originally posted by joanofthejungle

I think there is no substitute for private lessons from a good banjo teacher. Tell them what your goals are, and they should be able to help you reach them. My banjo teacher is constantly assessing and redirecting me, while keeping me from going down rabbit holes that hinder my progress. If you're concerned about using your practice time efficiently, I think a good private teacher is the way to go. Also, in person beats online.

---

Brendanervin - Posted - 02/15/2025:  16:27:35

Thanks Deb,

Yeah I've been considering looking harder for jams but don't really know where to look. I remember there was one at the firehall in a town i lived a few years back, wasn't a regular thing though. I lived beside the station and was an active volunteer firefighter so i would have known.

I've been playing along with the fiddle recordings lately and am getting a taste for it. I know of some people that are into music in a town about an hour away from me. Might try getting touch soon, been thinking about it for a while but have been waiting to run into someone I know who knows them as I don't have any phone numbers. My neighbor recently mentioned he had tried playing guitar for a time, I think my best bet is to try and convince him to pick it up again!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Banjoezzie

Brenden,



My husband and I lived in fairly remote Alaska for 20 years. It was impossible to find folks to play music. So I found songs or tunes I truly loved and played along with recordings,



Many years later (after not playing for 20+ years and leaving Alaska) we play with friends perhaps 4 or 5 times a week and I have found improvement that I could never achieve playing alone. Really solicit anyone (perhaps offer your home) regardless of instrument they play to join you. We play with guitars, ukes, fiddles, mandolins, drums, occasional flute and it does not matter what ttype music. It gets your brain active and even if you dont play an occasional song but perhaps sing, you will improve, don’t fall into the trap that you are not good enough to play with others - we sought out and found folks that dont give a fig about your playing ability. The experts take the lead and we can just play quietly or not at all. We are still learning and appreciating music.

---

Brendanervin - Posted - 02/15/2025:  16:33:00

Thanks Paul, looking at his page now, seems like a cool guy. I might get in touch with him when I get back from visiting family 

quote:

---

Originally posted by H Kimball

No substitute for one-on-one lessons! Fortunately you can now do this online. Immediate feedback worth the investment you make in Private lessons. Check out your fellow Canadian, Chris Coole's website- chriscoole.com/home

One of his online workshops "Practice to Improve" I highly recommend

---

Brendanervin - Posted - 02/15/2025:  16:40:14

I've been doing just that lately and it's paying off well. I've forgotten how to play a half dozen songs but the few that I have been working on, one at a time, for a day or three in a row. I've really noticed the difference in how they sound, having fun with variations more as well

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tunngavik

quote: Ditto. Agree completely. Ten years of practise and my most important take away is quality not quantity. An analogy would be They say you only have time and energy as you get older to cultivate perhaps three or four close friends. Same with tunes. Forget that "OK now on to the next tune" urge. Make close, intimate friends with a few favourite tunes and learn them to perfection - your ear will tell you when you've reached that point. It will be sweet music to your ears.

---

Originally posted by Eulalie

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brendanervin

 

Frustration only comes when I'm trying to work on and improve what I've already memorized, when I feel that despite my best efforts, they still sound crap. So I mostly just learn new stuff to keep my confidence up. I still work on nearly every song I've learned everyday, I just don't 'try' and make them better, just play it once or twice and maybe go over some choppy measures for a while until they iron out a bit, then on to the next tune. Is this bad practice?

 

Yes, that was a lengthy rant.  You expressed frustration over what we all probably have to go through in order to gain some proficiency on your instrument.  I clipped a quote from your dissertation that may represent one of the major hurdles to improving.

For many players, the primary impediment to improvement is flitting from one tune to another instead of investing in mastering one or two pieces.  This is a difficult thing for everyone because we naturally crave variety.  But it's worse than ever in our current age where attention spans have been eroded by design.  Nearly all that stuff you scroll through on your phone has been crafted by marketing psychologists who know what to do to keep you scrolling and clicking.

The best thing you can do is commit to working on a single piece for a single day.  Play only that piece—using a metronome—until you can play it perfectly from memory.  Then start working on variations, beginning with simple ornaments like hammers or pull-offs.  If you succeed, commit to working on a different tune the same way for your next practice session.

By the way, you mention that you have no interest in playing with others.  This is a mistake in my opinion because playing with others is the best way to get feedback, and the best route to improvement. 

---

 

---

joanofthejungle - Posted - 02/15/2025:  16:58:48

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brendanervin

Thanks Joan,

I'd agree with you there, private lessons are definitely something I want to do sometime soon. Can't seem to find anyone anywhere close to me though. Might start looking into some online options

quote:

---

Originally posted by joanofthejungle

I think there is no substitute for private lessons from a good banjo teacher. Tell them what your goals are, and they should be able to help you reach them. My banjo teacher is constantly assessing and redirecting me, while keeping me from going down rabbit holes that hinder my progress. If you're concerned about using your practice time efficiently, I think a good private teacher is the way to go. Also, in person beats online.

---

If you end up going for online lessons, I think my current banjo teacher, Cameron Dewhitt (they, them), is terrific!  They  really have a knack for explaining things, and guiding me in the direction I want to go.  Check them out at pitchforkbanjo.com.  I'm fortunate enough to live nearby so I can take lessons in person but I know they also offer lessons online. I've had three clawhammer banjo teachers so far, and Cameron is head and shoulders the best!

---

Edited by - joanofthejungle on 02/15/2025 16:59:18

Brendanervin - Posted - 02/15/2025:  17:46:10

Thanks Kirby, 

Yeah it feels like I've sacrificed my 'playing just for fun' in favor of working hard on certain rough sounding measures usually with slides or drop thumbs that sound like they aren't timed quite right yet. I like the idea of separate types of practice, I do take breaks from working on ironing out a tune to have fun playing with the different variations that i can come up with, sounds likd I'd benefit from separating these into different practice sessions rather that just going back and forth willy-nilly. Definitely all over the place all at once and enjoying the ride all the same!

quote:

---

Originally posted by burnttoastbanjo

Well you’ve brought up notions in your post and as many have sort of said, there is no one true WAY. For a Zen type response I’d say my way probably isn’t your way as we are all so very different. I’m self taught mostly but there have been many book purchases (most have a lot of tabs) I’ve had good and bad luck with tabs and over time I think I’ve figured out why. I’m 71and been picking for 51 yrs. Now when I practice I do one or the other, that is play tunes for the fun of playing along and the enjoyment of just playing. This of course also involves obviously, but maybe not consciously stewing about it, things like timing and your picking accuracy, anticipating chord changes and being conscious of your tone and volume being consistently consistent. The other type of practice is well, actual technical practice.



When I first started learning all I did was practice rolls over and over and over alternating between forward and backward and alternating thumb while changing patterns trying to be smooth and concise in the process. After a while to break up the monotony I started doing chord changes with the rolls. Yes sometimes incredibly boring and then at some point you realize that the rolls and chord changes are fitting and sounding somewhat song like. At this point you are on your way to doing/playing anything you want as in making your own sounds/songs. Just to double back here I keep these practice goals separate even though musically they are very much connected.



So anyway that’s my advice. For better technique and fingering decisions have a practice time that’s maybe more like doing homework than banjo playing and work on those types of issues you’re having and feel you need to address. For ear training and the playing part of being a player I like to pick along with tunes that I like to play with and believe me that’s wide open. I don’t put any limits on what genre I might want to dilly dally in but that’s my thing. But that’s a different time of day and I’m in a different mood and maybe a beer or two. As I read your post it seemed like you were all over the place all at once. That’s my take, you seem to have the desire so ride that train and enjoy the journey.

---

Brendanervin - Posted - 02/15/2025:  18:04:57

Oh no, I've got a terrible singing voice haha. I seem to be missing a big chunk of vocal range, it goes from low to highish with nothing in between. I don't even like hearing it myself so I keep it real quiet like under the banjo so the dog doesn't judge me unfairly. Been trying to listen to more music while I'm out working the woods and singing along but it probably doesn't help that I can't hear myself. Hopefully it's just a case of time and practice and my voice might sound better and actually be able to sing notes. I tried an app for voice training but I was so far off the mark with every single note, with no improvement over time, I figured I'd give the singing a rest for a while until my playing is good enough to make up for / mask it 

quote:

---

Originally posted by bosborne

 

When you sing and play people are paying attention to your voice first, your playing just needs to sound solid and steady underneath your singing.

 

 

---

A Drum On A Stick - Posted - 02/15/2025:  18:18:37

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brendanervin

Been trying to listen to more music while I'm out working the woods and singing along but it probably doesn't help that I can't hear myself.

 

---

 

---

Have you tried singing in the car?  Great place to hear yourself and not be judged.  Especially if you have a long commute or something.

Brendanervin - Posted - 02/16/2025:  02:41:17

I don't think I have actually, the stereo in the truck doesn't work.  I'm not worried about being judged actually, my nearest neighbor is miles away. It's more that I don't like hearing my singing because it sounds terrible and I can't hit the notes. I'll keep at it though, while I'm wearing my saw hat at least.

quote:

---

Originally posted by A Drum On A Stick

quote:Have you tried singing in the car?  Great place to hear yourself and not be judged.  Especially if you have a long commute or something.

 

---

Spudwheat - Posted - 03/30/2025:  05:10:49

Wow. I have been playing for just over 6 months. It seems like you have too many irons in the fire. Here is my 2¢ :

Use Josh Turknett's new book, "Anyone Can Play Music" as the primary instruction to learn & practice most effectively. You can pick it up online for about $16USD. Read it through once, then go back to individual chapters.

Focus on accuracy, clean playing, and one teacher's style. I chose my instructor based on how he presented the information. I use Lukas Pool and play clawhammer. I'm not saying you should change styles, but you might want to check out his free basic banjo course. I feel that his methodical, easy to understand instruction gave me an awesome launch. It may benefit you. (ozarkbanjo.com/free-beginner-c...o-lessons)

You're going to have to learn chords to play smoothly. Knowing them cuts down processing time.

Remember, it is the quality of the playing that brings joy to those who listen.

I wish you the best of luck.

Brendanervin - Posted - 03/30/2025:  14:28:33

Thanks for the message Spud,

Yes, i definitely was trying too much at once. Now I'm just playing the songs I've learnt already, sticking to one or two at a time, my playing seems to be improving because of it.

While i like Josh's teaching style I'm not really looking to be reading books or watching videos anymore, just playing over songs repeatedly seems to be what's working for me at the moment. Maybe next winter when I'm stuck indoors again. 

I don't really do chords either haha, aside from the few that are in the tunes i play. The dog is the only one who ever hears me play and he doesn't seem to mind so much.  I'm not a very social person, my reason for playing the banjo is really just to give me something to do out here in the woods when I'm too tired to run the saw. 

Appreciate the advice though, I'll likely be looking to improve my playing over the next winter but for now I'll just be pickin at it whenever i can, playing what sounds good to me at the time. 

Also, having to learn to play clawhammer with my fingertip, turns out i can't keep a nail while I'm working. Accuracy has taken a dive but I'm getting used to it, doing more 2 finger as well, might lean into that more but i do like clawhammer and don't mind missing notes so much if i keep the timing going good.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spudwheat

Wow. I have been playing for just over 6 months. It seems like you have too many irons in the fire. Here is my 2¢ :



Use Josh Turknett's new book, "Anyone Can Play Music" as the primary instruction to learn & practice most effectively. You can pick it up online for about $16USD. Read it through once, then go back to individual chapters.



Focus on accuracy, clean playing, and one teacher's style. I chose my instructor based on how he presented the information. I use Lukas Pool and play clawhammer. I'm not saying you should change styles, but you might want to check out his free basic banjo course. I feel that his methodical, easy to understand instruction gave me an awesome launch. It may benefit you. (ozarkbanjo.com/free-beginner-c...o-lessons)



You're going to have to learn chords to play smoothly. Knowing them cuts down processing time.



Remember, it is the quality of the playing that brings joy to those who listen.



I wish you the best of luck.

---

jojo25 - Posted - 04/21/2025:  08:41:40

Hi Brendan...yeah, a long rant...what stands out for me is that your timing is off...ya gotta fix that...bad timing ruins everything...slow down...simplify...consider using a metronome...but get your timing right...excuse the pun, but you are wasting your time if your time if off

Old Hickory - Posted - 04/21/2025:  09:50:46

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brendanervin

My accuracy is still poor, timing as well. My reasoning is that at this point, it doesn't really matter what I'm doing so long as it's with a banjo in my hand, I will be improving as a player.

---

I couldn't disagree more.

Doing something with the banjo might be better for your playing than doing nothing with the banjo. But it also presents the risk of doing the same wrong things the wrong way, which might only make you better at being a bad player.

Only intentional practice and repetition focused on correcting the things you're not doing well will help you improve.

I see from a late March post that you've in fact narrowed your practice to only a couple of songs at a time, and you believe you're seeing improvement. That's the way to do it. A repertoire of 20 songs you can't play up to speed, in time, with any accuracy is not really "knowing" 20 songs. You're acquainted with them. Just as with people, it will take time to really get to know them.

If your songs are coming from lessons -- such as from Hilary Hawke or Alison de Groot -- then it's possible they arranged the songs to introduce and practice specific techniques in a planned, developmental, order. Learning technique in the context of songs is always more fun than learning it as exercises. But both ways are valuable.

So practice whatever Hilary and Alison are suggesting.

Theory is good to know. But it's not necessary to know before we play. I think of it like grammar. We learn to speak by ear and imitation and become fluent speakers of our native languages long before we are instructed in their actual rules of grammar or usage.

Music theory is an explanation of what's happening in a piece of music. It's not a recipe or instructions for creating a piece of music. And while theory can explain why something sounds good, sometimes theory would suggest otherwise. Fortunately, there's one rule of theory that trumps all others: If it sounds good, it is good.

I think you need to focus on improving the things in your playing that need improving. Then you'll improve as a player.

I say that as someone whose own practice is often unfocused and scattershot.