sethb - Posted - 08/24/2024:  07:05:13

Although most of the posts here are about individual playing, many of us also spend a fair amount of time playing with other musicians.  And as a leader in two bands, I’ve learned that although some musicians are excellent players, sometimes they don’t have a clue about performing with other musicians.

So I thought it might be good to start a thread on “band etiquette” -- things to do or not do when you’re playing with other performers.  Here are three of my biggest pet peeves:

1. Noodling.  There’s a guy in one band who constantly “noodles” on his instrument -- between songs in rehearsals, before gigs while everyone else is setting up, at gigs while I’m introducing the next tune, or even when I’m counting off to start a song. Is he nervous, clueless, selfish, dumb, showing off, or all of the above?  Does he understand the difference between practicing, rehearsing, and performing?   

2. Being on time.  Exhibit A) Our rehearsal is supposed to start at 3 p.m., but one or two of the players don’t arrive until 3 p.m.  As a result, the rehearsal doesn’t get underway until 3:20, after they have set up, tuned up, laid out their music and gotten a coffee.  So about 20% of a two-hour rehearsal is wasted.   Exhibit B) Our gig starts at 7 p.m., and the vocalist waltzes in at 6:50. So in addition to stressing out the rest of the band by wondering where the heck she is, our 6:30 sound check has to be done without her, and she also spends the first two numbers warming up (and singing flat to boot). There’s an old saying among musicians: “If you’re on time, you’re late!”  In symphony orchestras, many union contracts specify that musicians must be in their seats and ready to play at least 15-20 minutes before curtain time. The conductor has enough on his/her mind as it is, without having to wonder where the principal clarinetist is. But the same thing applies to folks playing in the smalltime!  

3. Being neat.  When a band plays somewhere, they are being invited into someone else’s venue as guests.  Unfortunately, sometimes band members don’t act like guests. They pile their instrument cases up against a wall (and where they’re still in full view of the audience), pile their music books onto the end of the bar where the bartender is working, and they leave their coats on a chair that someone else actually might like to sit on.  You may be the best banjoist since Eddie Peabody, but if you have lousy manners and are a slob, I guarantee it may be a factor in not being invited back.

So there’s a few of the biggest violations of band etiquette I’ve seen.  Anyone care to share some more?  SETH

Edited by - sethb on 08/24/2024 07:14:14

GS - Posted - 08/24/2024:  07:19:17

Three big peeves? Man, only three?



I don't like band mates who...



- don't use the spittoon provided

- talk fancy with my wife (my blood's boiling just thinking of this one)

- drink too much, ask to stay over, then talk fancy with my wife (I'm seething now)

Edited by - GS on 08/24/2024 07:19:56

sethb - Posted - 08/24/2024:  07:23:42

quote:

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Originally posted by GS  Three big peeves? Man, only three?

I certainly do have more than three peeves, but I didn't want to overload the Internet server!  So stay tuned!!  SETH

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Edited by - sethb on 08/24/2024 07:24:56

GS - Posted - 08/24/2024:  07:31:54

quote:

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Originally posted by sethb

quote:

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Originally posted by GS  Three big peeves? Man, only three?

I certainly do have more than three peeves, but I didn't want to overload the Internet server!  So stay tuned!!  SETH

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Go for it, Seth! Get those peeves off your chest! Enjoy the rest of your day, I'm off to sit in the garden while the Sun's out, and try not to think of fellas talking fancy!

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Texasbanjo - Posted - 08/24/2024:  08:06:38

I don't know if you'd consider this a band peeve or not, but bands to turn the volume up so high that the first 5 rows leave or put in ear plugs. There's no reason to try to blast people out of a festival. That's my pet peeve about bands and the guy working the audio.

KCJones - Posted - 08/24/2024:  08:09:38

Even getting a functional band together at all is so frustrating and difficult I usually try to ignore any minor annoyances.

I guess one that comes to mind: be sober. Nothing more annoying than a band member screwing up because they treat gigs and practice like a party. Frank Zappa was absolutely right on this one.

RioStat - Posted - 08/24/2024:  08:22:34

sethb, why don’t you talk to you band members about these "peeves", instead of a bunch of, basically, strangers on a website ?

raybob - Posted - 08/24/2024:  08:34:15

I played guitar in a Big Band for a couple years, and the director did have to remind people a couple times about noodling and being on time mostly. 7 o’clock rehearsal means in your chair, instrument assembled and ready, music book on the stand by 7 if not before. Unwanted fraternizations didn’t happen.

HSmith - Posted - 08/24/2024:  09:05:38

I can certainly understand how irritating this can be! I've been playing for more than 50 years, and was fortunate in the 1970s to play in a band where we all agreed to ensure our collective performance was of a professional standard. Each of the five band members learned the parts they said they would. We supported, encouraged and respected each other, turned up on time and behaved in a professional manner. Sadly, my experience since those halcyon days has been very different!

I'd say the most important issue is that everyone needs to agree what the band aims to achieve, and commit to doing all they can to help do so. If it means writing down a set of objectives, then so be it. There can then be no 'Oh that wasn't my understanding!'  If someone is disruptive or doesn't put their weight, they need to be reminded of the band's objectives or be replaced. 

This may seem over the top, and I guess it is if you just want to get together and play for fun. If you want to produce professional quality music, you need to behave in a professional manner. End of rant.

Edited by - HSmith on 08/24/2024 09:08:08

sethb - Posted - 08/24/2024:  09:38:14

quote:

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Originally posted by RioStat

sethb, why don’t you talk to you band members about these "peeves", instead of a bunch of, basically, strangers on a website ?

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Scott, I do bring up these points to the band members, with various degrees of success. 

I decided to mention them here for discussion, in the hopes that other musicians will also read them and see these problems.  I've found that sometimes people don't even realize what they're doing, until it's pointed out to them.  SETH 

Edited by - sethb on 08/24/2024 09:40:09

Culloden - Posted - 08/24/2024:  09:40:29

One of my peeves is the musicians who show up to play a gig wearing cut-off shorts and tank tops. That's fine in a jam session but, when you are being paid to play, make an effort to look somewhat professional. I don't expect every band to wear suits and ties but, at least, don't come to the show looking like a homeless person. At one time the group I played in wore black pants and white short-sleeve shirts. That way we looked neat, and we were still comfortable.

Another peeve is when a band member invites someone from the outside to play. We played a show one time in Ridgeway, Virginia and a band member had invited a couple of guys who thought they were the Rice Brothers. I was going to kick off a song for them and one of them got pretty rude about it. He told me that he was capable of kicking off the song without my help. After that, every time he nodded at me to take a break, I would give a little shake of my head. He didn't have time to look at anyone else, so he had to jump in and take a break. I figured if he wanted all the breaks I would give them to him. Someone in the audience finally called him on it.

Edited by - Culloden on 08/24/2024 09:51:47

sethb - Posted - 08/24/2024:  10:10:54

quote:

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Originally posted by Texasbanjo   I don't know if you'd consider this a band peeve or not, but bands to turn the volume up so high that the first 5 rows leave or put in ear plugs. There's no reason to try to blast people out of a festival. That's my pet peeve about bands and the guy working the audio.

 

Volume can be a big problem.  I guess some bands figure that louder is better!  I believe part of the problem is that some musicians aren’t used to playing with others, and they may have trouble hearing themselves in a group situation.  So they crank up the volume on their amp, which often results in other band members being unable to hear themselves, so then they crank up their amps.  Pretty soon nobody can hear anyone else and the audience just wishes it would all be over quickly.

The other problem is that what you hear on the stage is not always the same thing as what the audience is hearing, so sometimes it's tough to gauge how loud you sound out in the room itself.  

We work without a sound man.  We have one 40-watt PA centered behind the band, which carries just the vocalist.  Each guitarist/banjoist has his own amp (I have a 90-watt Fender Acoustasonic), and the bass man has his own bass amp.  This setup has worked well for us for audiences up to 125 people; our goal is to fill the room with sound so that everyone can hear and enjoy it, rather than just blasting the first five rows. 

We do a sound check before each show, but that can be deceptive because we’re still playing to a mostly empty room at that point, and people will absorb sound.  But at the beginning of each show, I always ask if everyone can hear me, and I also tell people to please let us know if we’re too loud or too soft, or if they can’t hear the vocalist (balance issues).  That may sound amateurish, but again it has worked out well for us.   SETH   

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Edited by - sethb on 08/24/2024 10:17:58

sethb - Posted - 08/24/2024:  10:28:24

quote:

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Originally posted by Culloden One of my peeves is the musicians who show up to play a gig wearing cut-off shorts and tank tops. That's fine in a jam session but, when you are being paid to play, make an effort to look somewhat professional. I don't expect every band to wear suits and ties but, at least, don't come to the show looking like a homeless person.

Mark, I was told we should wear something that's a little better that what the best-dressed member of the audience would be wearing. We play a lot of concerts at public libraries, so eventually we went for black pants, white shirts and matching ties (I bought ten identical ties on Amazon for about $100.)  This way, we look like we belong together as a band, and that we're serious about what we play. 

Of course there are exceptions.  More than a few country acts come on stage looking like they just changed the oil in their truck.  But on the other hand, they probably make more money in one show than I'll make in a lifetime! So there's no arguing with success.  SETH    

Edited by - sethb on 08/24/2024 10:32:05

Texasbanjo - Posted - 08/24/2024:  11:09:47

quote:

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Originally posted by sethb

quote:

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Originally posted by Texasbanjo   I don't know if you'd consider this a band peeve or not, but bands to turn the volume up so high that the first 5 rows leave or put in ear plugs. There's no reason to try to blast people out of a festival. That's my pet peeve about bands and the guy working the audio.

 

Volume can be a big problem.  I guess some bands figure that louder is better!  I believe part of the problem is that some musicians aren’t used to playing with others, and they may have trouble hearing themselves in a group situation.  So they crank up the volume on their amp, which often results in other band members being unable to hear themselves, so then they crank up their amps.  Pretty soon nobody can hear anyone else and the audience just wishes it would all be over quickly.

The other problem is that what you hear on the stage is not always the same thing as what the audience is hearing, so sometimes it's tough to gauge how loud you sound out in the room itself.  

We work without a sound man.  We have one 40-watt PA centered behind the band, which carries just the vocalist.  Each guitarist/banjoist has his own amp (I have a 90-watt Fender Acoustasonic), and the bass man has his own bass amp.  This setup has worked well for us for audiences up to 125 people; our goal is to fill the room with sound so that everyone can hear

and enjoy it, rather than just blasting the first five rows. 

We do a sound check before each show, but that can be deceptive because we’re still playing to a mostly empty room at that point, and people will absorb sound.  But at the beginning of each show, I always ask if everyone can hear me, and I also tell people to please let us know if we’re too loud or too soft, or if they can’t hear the vocalist (balance issues).  That may sound amateurish, but again it has worked out well for us.   SETH   

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I remember going to Glen Rose one year to hear what I considered a very special band, well known, well liked.  They had a sound man and he managed all the sound.  When their gig started, it was so loud that it literally hurt my ears.  I moved off the 5th row and moved to the back of the festival (outside, roofed but not enclosed).  Even at the very back it was so loud it really muddled the sound of the band.  People were leaving in droves because of the loudness.   I was so disappointed because I traveled over 200 miles mainly to hear that one band.  I find no reason for any group, professional or amateur, to be that loud.    I still love to hear the band and especially the banjo picker, but only in CDs or videos where I can control the sound.  

 

KCJones - Posted - 08/24/2024:  12:41:44

quote:

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Originally posted by Culloden

One of my peeves is the musicians who show up to play a gig wearing cut-off shorts and tank tops. 

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You make Bobby sad. 

 

gbisignani - Posted - 08/24/2024:  13:24:18

bands that refuse to rehearse ! I played in a band where the lead singer stopped the song halfway thru because he said he couldn't sing to the way I was playing a particular song !

Texasbanjo - Posted - 08/24/2024:  14:14:32

We had matching outfits in our band. Simple, clean, jeans and a blue knit shirt with our names and our band name (I machine embroideried them). If you look together, then you usually are together. However, I've seen some bands that looked like they were unkempt, unclean and downright dirty at times but could play the fire out of their instruments so... I'd give them the benefit of the doubt until I heard them play. I still think clean and neat beats the other way.

sethb - Posted - 08/24/2024:  15:22:57

Because one of the band members didn't like to wear a tie, we also looked into getting short-sleeved V-neck shirts with collars  (I think they're called golf shirts).  They also would have been good for summertime gigs. 

But after we priced getting them embroidered with the band's name (which would have cost about twice what each shirt cost), we decided to stick with white shirts, which are easily bought and replaced if necessary.  The guy who didn't like ties just got overruled. 

I believe that in classical music, black pants or a skirt and a white top is pretty much the standard.  We thought that just black pants and a white shirt made us look like waiters instead of musicians, so that's one reason we added the ties.  We also could have gone with hats or caps of some sort -- but some of the members didn't want to wear a hat, they said it would have made them too hot, and they were probably right.  SETH  

sethb - Posted - 08/24/2024:  15:50:28

One more pet peeve: Our bands work from lead sheets rather than charts, and we make up head arrangements for the tunes.  But once we agree on an arrangement, most of the members make notes on the lead sheet about the intro, any breaks, stop times or solos, a tag if there is one, etc. 

But some members think a head arrangement is one that’s only kept in their head, so there’s no need to make any notes about it on the music. As a result, they usually make the same mistakes over and over again as we rehearse and/or perform.  In addition to aggravating everyone else, this can be especially obvious and jarring to the listeners because both bands are also dance bands, and we should be keeping a consistent tempo and rhythm. 

So please keep a pencil in your case along with your picks!  SETH

Edited by - sethb on 08/24/2024 15:55:50

mike gregory - Posted - 08/24/2024:  16:42:12

About clothing:

A hundred years ago, the Menomonee River valley between the north side and south side of Milwaukee had the railroad yards, some HUGE factories, the stockyards, and so forth.
So a local Bluegrass band called themselves the INDUSTRIAL VALLEY RANGERS, and had bowling shirts made up, with the "team" name on the back, and the individual's name on the front.

Since Milwaukee has a LOT of bowlers AND Bluegrass fans, it went over well.

Mary and I scouted the thrift stores and rummage sales, and found ALMOST matching striped, button down shirts.
I'd like us to wear matching hats, but she does LIKE wearing hats, and that's that.

MAtching outfits

 

mike gregory - Posted - 08/24/2024:  17:04:35

Was in a band with a guy who Sincerely Believed that the LESS fun we had rehearsing, the BETTER we would be on stage.
And he would INSIST that we do the same damned passage over and over and OVER, until HE was satisfied that it was good enough.

Lucky me! I left town and the band fell apart.

Will Frady - Posted - 08/24/2024:  18:03:39

There has to be a pecking order . Someone has to be the boss/ leader that leads by example and holds everyone to a higher standard. The leader/boss cannot worry about offending someone, too many people looking for ways to get offended these days .There has to be rules established. We can’t just show up to work any ole time we want to or we’ll be looking for another job. Or that’s the way it used to be. Put your foot down and you’ll quickly see who wants to play in a band and who doesn’t. Weed em out !

TB4 - Posted - 08/25/2024:  02:24:41

This topic is original and interesting. I attach a short video in which the band leader scolds me and the drummer, who had asked me a question. As for finding oneself in embarrassing situations, this has often happened to me: being an occasional guest in N.O. style bands, very often the leaders would start a song without telling me the title and its key. I can't read, but my ear has always saved me from disasters...

https://youtu.be/HpVHL1c6GZA

Edited by - TB4 on 08/25/2024 02:31:37

sethb - Posted - 08/25/2024:  04:27:11

quote:

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Originally posted by Will Frady 

There has to be a pecking order . Someone has to be the boss/ leader that leads by example and holds everyone to a higher standard. The leader/boss cannot worry about offending someone, too many people looking for ways to get offended these days. 

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While many musicians appear to be very self-confident, underneath that thin veneer they're usually mushballs and are very easily hurt. Add to this the fact that some people don't take criticism (and even constructive criticism) well, and I've found you need to be diplomatic about getting things fixed. 

Sometimes I will frame the issue as a question, such as "Do you think that was a little too fast?" or "Were we together on that last chorus?"  I also try to speak to a band member privately if possible, to avoid embarrassing him/her in front of the rest of the group.  But I've still had a few rare occasions when I've just lost it and blown up in front of everyone.  Heck, nobody's perfect!  SETH

Edited by - sethb on 08/25/2024 04:29:36

banjopaolo - Posted - 08/26/2024:  05:41:01

I usually play with musician who are close friend so, if something goes wrong I can simply talk and make it clear…

@GS my wife is a musician and she often plays with me, the other guys who play with us knows both me and her since many years so there’s no reason for me of being jealous!

pmiller510 - Posted - 08/26/2024:  08:11:48

All of the above plus: Having a band member say they can't play a gig they had committed to and the gig was confirmed with the venue. In my opinion, once you said you're going to do a gig you'd better show or be in the emergency room at the local hospital.

Compass56 - Posted - 08/26/2024:  11:04:13

This is such a great topic! I’ve really enjoyed reading all of the various responses. ‘All excellent.

I have had many opportunities to witness various levels of band etiquette because I have played with and continue to play with a lot different players in a lot of different combos. (I’ve never really desired to play with the same group every night. I don’t know why.) In my 40 years on the bandstand I’ve noticed two things: (1) The vast majority of the people with whom I’ve made music have been nice, considerate, and professional and (2) the few who did display bad band etiquette were pretty diverse. A couple of them were old; others were young. Some were really accomplished players, and others were little more than novices. Some were semi-famous, and some were dentists or teachers looking for something to do.

I’ve always viewed performing as a triangle. Each of the three sides (the player, the audience, the song) are important to the success of the performance. Maybe the players who exhibit bad band etiquette focus too much on that first side of the triangle (the player) and don’t pay enough attention to the others. It seems to me that if musicians are truly showing respect to the audience and song being played they won’t display bad band etiquette.

sethb - Posted - 08/26/2024:  12:41:01

Tony, as I've said before, some of this poor behavior on the bandstand may be inadvertent, because some people just don't know what to do and have never been shown or told. And aside from open mic situations, there aren't a lot of opportunities for new players to get performance experience. 

On the other hand, a lot of this stuff is just plain old common sense, which I guess isn't so common anymore!  But a little courtesy and consideration would go a long way.  SETH

Edited by - sethb on 08/26/2024 12:43:02

Hot Club Man - Posted - 08/26/2024:  14:32:09

Regarding dress on a gig. I am a firm believer that the audience listen with their eyes meaning that if you dress well you are well on your way to a successful gig. So true!

rcc56 - Posted - 08/26/2024:  18:56:05

I worked for many years with seasoned professionals, and learned from them. And I was fortunate enough to pay off my house with an electric guitar and a bass fiddle.



Be on time, sober.  Dress right, learn your parts, pick up your cues, pay attention to your job, don't experiment with your new toys on stage, and remember you're being paid to provide a non-essential service. My clothes washer broke down the other day and I had to have it serviced today.  The repairman performed an essential service for me, and hopefully did a good job.  But the people who hire musicians don't have to hire them. You're there to entertain the audience. They're not there to entertain you.



But the hardest one is if you're upset, no matter what the reason, don't let the audience know. That can be really hard to do.



I stayed in a couple of situations too long, and it caused me a lot of stress. I'm more or less retired now, and no longer feel driven to get up on a stage. Now, if anyone asks me to work with them, I tell them up front that I'll only do it if everyone maintains a professional work ethic. They're not beating down my doors, and that's ok.  I'm no angel, and I know that, but I had a 30 year run, and that's not too bad.  And I haven't had to go out and flip hamburgers [although there's absolutely nothing wrong with doing that for a living], and I had enough money to pay for the washer repair.

Edited by - rcc56 on 08/26/2024 19:12:11

wrench13 - Posted - 08/26/2024:  19:12:19

Pet band peeves! Whats the post length on BHO ?

1. Can't hold tempo. If I start a tune at a given tempo, it damn well better be the same at the end. Can't keep up cuz you are: a) tired b) getting old c) Rhumatiz kicking in d) stoned or drunk or e) not that crazy bout the tune being played hence less energy. If a thru e is present, you get the stink eye on stage for the 1st time. 2nd time is a stern talking to, and there ain't no 3rd time.

2. Can't remember arrangements. Not talking about complex stuff, just intro's and outro's. Same deal on 1st, 2nd and 3rd times.

3. Trying all sorts of crazy crap in your breaks and back ups. It better work or same deal on 1st, 2nd and 3rd times. The time to try that stuff out is at rehearsal or better yet in your basement.

4. Arguing on stage, in the middle of the set. Sorry that one gets you right to the 3rd choice. So unprofessional and damages the rep for the band.

5. Showing up missing a piece of equipment or kit. Provided we can cover it (or not) this can get you right to the 3rd choice too. Better have a GOOD excuse, none of those 'dog ate my homework' ones. Had a bass player once who showed up missing: guitar cable, strap, and case. Showed up with JUST his bass with a sports jacket for a case. Guy had to use someone's belt for a strap. Last gig he played with us.

I think that'll do for now. There's plenty more and I am sure some of you guys have more too!

sethb - Posted - 08/27/2024:  08:46:07

I have another pet peeve to add -- staying in your genre.  One band I lead plays tunes from the 20’s, 30’s and 40’s, while the other group plays classic pop rock from the 50’s and 60’s.  One of the guitarists/6-string banjoists in both bands likes country music, and he loves to insert things like string bends, blue notes and string slides into these tunes.  He also often plays by finger picking instead of using a flat pick. 

I like country music too, especially Western Swing.  But since we’re trying to stay with the specific sound of a particular time period, these country music touches seem very out of place, at least to my ears. I’ve tried to show him some fills and licks that might be more appropriate to the sort of music we’re playing.  I also didn’t think finger picking cuts it in this case -- both of these music styles need a strong rhythm section (think Freddie Green, Johnny St. Cyr or Danny Barker), so I felt strumming is what’s called for here, and told him so.  He wasn't a happy camper. 

I generally try to give band members a fair amount of latitude in how they play, out of respect for their chops and creativity.  But if someone can’t stay in a band’s genre, they should start their own band!  SETH

Edited by - sethb on 08/27/2024 08:55:21

sethb - Posted - 08/27/2024:  13:20:16

And somewhat related to the "genre" peeve is the "too creative" peeve.  For many older tunes like “Whispering” or “The World Is Waiting For The Sunrise,” there can be several different and legitimate ways to chord the tune.  Additionally, some lead sheets aren’t always accurate, either!  So we’re always open to trying different or alternative chord changes.

However -- especially for older tunes, some players want to “update” the chord changes to more modern ones.  So they’ll want to go for a ninth or an eleventh instead of a plain vanilla major chord or a seventh. There’s no denying that many of these extended chords are lovely.  But do they belong in a song written in 1916 or 1924?  Maybe, but probably not.  Do they sometimes clash with the melody note?  Yep! 

At least to my ears, many Roaring Twenties numbers that are bright, uptempo tunes need the bright sound of major and dominant seventh chords.  If you start going into ninths and that sort of stuff, I feel it changes the original sound and feel of the song, and usually not for the better.  

So my theory is, let's play the song the way it was originally written, with the original chords. Then we can see if any chord modifications would be a good idea, and if so, we'll ALL play them -- no brave souls wandering off into the chord wilderness by themselves, please!  SETH 

Edited by - sethb on 08/27/2024 13:22:26

Hot Club Man - Posted - 08/27/2024:  13:52:00

Yep! Agree with sethb.

rcc56 - Posted - 08/27/2024:  17:33:05

About 1990, I hooked up with a good piano player, playing dinner and dance music, "jazz light," a lot of local restaurants, plus some runs adding a drummer and playing real jazz at some clubs.



David always showed up at the last minute. Later on, we got a steady two night a week restaurant gig, 100 bucks apiece per night plus dinner-- anything on the menu. Good money for a local job back then, good treatment from the owner, good tips some nights, and we had two runs of over two years a piece.  A gig worth its weight in gold for a local pro. Then, David started sending in subs, some of them decent, some not so good. The restaurant owner would catch me before we started, saying "Where's David?" I would say "I don't know," then do the best I could with whoever David had sent in. I was trying to protect the gig.



I had been hanging around with Norman Blake, and a point came when he asked me to join him on some shows. Norman was getting older and working less, so his shows were somewhat sporadic. So I decided to decline with regrets, and protect the restaurant job. And David was still late, and showing up less. We had been working together for nearly 10 years, but now we were butting heads, and it finally got to the point where I knew that one of us was going to have to fire the other one.



The restaurant owner came to me one night, and asked me to switch from bass to classical guitar and take over the job. It was going to take some time and effort to work up 2 1/2 hours of material, and I didn't want to be the bad guy, so I hesitated, Then I told the owner "If you want me to take over, you'll have to be the one to fire David."  David must have realized in his gut that something was going to happen, so he started to show up regularly.  A few weeks later, he fired me. My parting words to him were "I'm the reason you've still got a gig." I was angry, but relieved.



I stuck my feet up on the coffee table in front of the TV that Saturday night, and took a deep breath. I hadn't had a weekend off in years. The next week, a friend who was married to a symphony musician came up to me and said, "I hear you're a free agent now." I really liked the sound of that.



So I joined Norman on his "Flower From the Fields of Alabama" record.  The high point of my career.  "O Brother" had hit, so Norman was mostly working on the package tours generated from that. He wasn't doing much independent stuff, and Nancy was ready to start working again, so I lost the opportunity to gig with him. But the R & B band that had been my secondary gig started working more since I was now available anytime. 5 years later, my house was paid off.



10 years later, our 60 year old singer, who was the real thing, decided to give her knees and feet a break and retired. We briefly tried to replace her, but found we couldn't. She was the real thing, and you don't find many who can step into those shoes. The drummer's knees were getting weak, and so was my back. The band never broke up, we simply stopped working.



After that, I worked in an acoustic trio for a while.  The group had a lot of potential, but one of our members, although quite talented, still had the hobbyist mentality. We weren't making much, and we weren't worth much. And the hobbyist always showed up too late to get the sound adjusted and get his instruments tuned up. Same old thing. The band broke up. Two years later, they tried to re-form. I didn't join them.



Now I'm collecting Social Security, giving lessons when asked, and fixing instruments when I have the energy. I haven't been on a stage in well over a year, but the house is still paid off, and hopefully I've saved enough to support myself for the rest of my life.



My only regret is that I wish I had gone out and gigged with Norman and let the chips fall wherever they wanted to on the restaurant job. But I've got the record under my belt, which was a real honor. If I ever decide to get in front of a microphone again, it will either be solo or with just one other person who has a professional work ethic. I'll hope that I will sound good, and that the audience thinks they got their money's worth.



"Always leave 'em wanting more."

Edited by - rcc56 on 08/27/2024 17:51:09

rcc56 - Posted - 08/27/2024:  18:18:28

And then there was the suit and tie wedding reception, with "show at the last minute piano player" and four other musicians, plus a singer that thought too much of himself.



The weather was questionable and David was late. A decision had to be made whether to set up inside, outside, or on the porch.  The musicians debated for 5  or 10 minutes.  Time was running out, and the guests were coming in, so I made an executive decision.  The guitar player had an expensive f-hole archtop, prone to feedback, and set up with his amp in front of him. So he couldn't hear himself, but his amp was blasting. The singer was nowhere to be found. We started without him.  We could do the job whether he showed up or not.



15 minutes later, the singer shows up in his t-shirt, jostling the guests aside four times as he carries speakers and microphone and stand through the room. Then he loosens his belt and puts his dress shirt on in the middle of the room. The guests were not too happy about that.



We were lucky that they paid us.

Strangely enough, David said he wanted to some more work with that singer.  I told him that was his own business, but that I wouldn't be on any of those jobs.

Edited by - rcc56 on 08/27/2024 18:34:18

sethb - Posted - 08/28/2024:  04:07:08

Incidentally, even though I started this thread and have offered more than a few horror stories, I'm really not a musical Scrooge!  

The times when I've had problems have been relatively few compared with all the really good gigs that went off without a hitch.  And I suspect that's probably also the case with most of the other folks who have posted here. 

But I'm always looking to improve my playing and my performances; I'm always trying to learn from my mistakes and those of other people.  It's in that spirit that I posted these "tales of woe." SETH   

Edited by - sethb on 08/28/2024 04:09:46

trackers - Posted - 08/29/2024:  09:54:36

Hmmmmmm... let's see. The lead singer changing chords for every other song they sing making me to put on a capo or change position of it for every other song. That is very aggravating to put up with someone like that. Okay I said it and I'm sticking to it. LOL

beegee - Posted - 08/29/2024:  11:12:42

Band members who will deviate from known material and go free-wheelin' into unknown territory, leaving everybody else wondering "now what?!!"

Texasbanjo - Posted - 08/29/2024:  11:23:59

quote:

---

Originally posted by trackers

Hmmmmmm... let's see. The lead singer changing chords for every other song they sing making me to put on a capo or change position of it for every other song. That is very aggravating to put up with someone like that. Okay I said it and I'm sticking to it. LOL

---

Sometimes it can't be helped.  Vocalists sing in different keys for different songs because of their song range.  How difficult is it to put on a capo?  The ones I feel sorry for are the mandolin and fiddle players who don't/can't/seldom use capos and have to play everything in every key in order to keep up. 

While I sing mainly in the key of C, there are songs that I do in G, A, B, Bb, C, D and E (I try to stay away from F), and that's because of where my voice range falls.  I make no apologies for my voice range as I have no way to change it.  And I also have to work with a capo and have no problem doing that and singing, too.

trackers - Posted - 08/29/2024:  11:31:17

I don't sing. I play banjo and it sure is a pain retuning or at least touching up a string or two between songs. I would like to see the vocalist sing all their A songs together, their G songs together And so on. Instead of every other song in a different key. That's just my opinion.

Banjo Man

 

cemdunlop - Posted - 08/29/2024:  12:36:39

@TB4. Your video cannot be viewed:youtu.be/HpVHL1c6GZA

writerrad - Posted - 08/29/2024:  13:44:56

I had the privilege of being a substitute banjo player in the black old time band Ebony Hillbillies for several years when their banjoist faced illness that limited his ability to travel.  Everyone who was in that band had been a professional musician in other forms of Black music. like a backup singer and dancer for James Brown, a former member of the Saturday night live band, a bassist who has won multiple grammies as a song writer and as conductor and producer of pop albums and played with the likes of Coltrane and Miriam Makeba.

The discipline and professionalism of these players would have pleased this leader.   You show up an hour early, you dress professionally, you get to the venue and rehearse under direction exactly where you will stand or sit. The principle is only musicians carry instruments even when the hotel staff wants to carry the bass to a room.

Too much in the old time world I inhabit, and probably the bluegrass world too, comes from the amateur or jam culture,where musicianship is not looked upon as professional work, but a way of hanging out.

Heck Monroe would have his band members showing up at his farm to work on fencing at dawn when some of them were in their 60s and 70s.

Being a musician performing for people who are paying to hear you, or paying for drinks and food to hear you an honored profession with traditions and requirements that go back to antiquity.  It is a privilege, not just a way to hang out, but a calling.    

Thanks for this post

Edited by - writerrad on 08/29/2024 13:49:02

writerrad - Posted - 08/29/2024:  13:55:05

A band that does not rehearse is not a band, its a jam session of individuals

writerrad - Posted - 08/29/2024:  14:03:41

I like a strong rhythm section (think Freddie Green, Johnny St. Cyr or Danny Barker),

---

All three were really guitar banjoists or Guitarists,  Freddie actually started out as a uke banjoist, then played a tenor tuned like a uke when he got to NYC before switching to Guitar.  St Cyr always played a guitar banjo, starting out by making his own before they were sold and people I know who knew him said he always thought of himself as a guitarist, likewise Barker.

Texasbanjo - Posted - 08/29/2024:  14:32:44

quote:

---

Originally posted by trackers

I don't sing. I play banjo and it sure is a pain retuning or at least touching up a string or two between songs. I would like to see the vocalist sing all their A songs together, their G songs together And so on. Instead of every other song in a different key. That's just my opinion.

---

Unfortunately, most of us can't just sing in G and A, so if you're going to play with others you're going to have to get used to changing keys from song to song.  As I said, most of my vocals are in the key of C so I don't move around a whole lot, but there are times when we want a song in a certain place and in order to sing it, everyone has to capo up or play out of the vocalists key.   That's just the way it is in a group situation.

I remember how difficult it used to be for me to capo up and play out of different keys when I first started jamming.  After I started singing, I realized how often singers did sing in different keys and learned how to capo up quickly and tweak the 5th string maybe and go on without making anyone wait for me to tune.   The more you jam/do gigs, the easier it is to do.

wendellfiddler - Posted - 08/29/2024:  15:12:39

quote:

---

Originally posted by Texasbanjo

I don't know if you'd consider this a band peeve or not, but bands to turn the volume up so high that the first 5 rows leave or put in ear plugs. There's no reason to try to blast people out of a festival. That's my pet peeve about bands and the guy working the audio.

---

Yes, playing too loud - kiss of death.  If people can't have a pleasant conversation or just enjoy the music without ear pain - you will probably not be asked back, or worse, the venue will get a bad rep and close, so no one will get asked back.

sethb - Posted - 08/29/2024:  15:35:21

As I often say, "I know just enough music theory to be dangerous!" But as far as vocalists and keys go, it's my understanding that you change keys in order to put the note range of the song within the note range of the vocalist.  So different songs may require different keys. 

For example, in one band I play in, the vocalist is a soprano.  So we often need to push the original key of the song upwards by about 3 notes, so that she can still hit the low melody notes easily.  If a song was published in C, we usually need to push it into Eb or F. 

Conversely, the other band I'm in has an alto vocalist.  We usually need to push the key down by around 5 notes, so that she doesn't pop a tonsil on the high notes.  If a song was written in F, we may need to drop the key to C.  If it was originally Bb, we may go to G or F, and so on.  Fortunately, we often use digital lead sheets from SheetMusicDirect, and I can quickly transpose the sheet music into any key we need with a few strokes of my computer mouse.  

The other issue with keys is that if you're playing with transposing instruments like a clarinet or sax, you need to be careful about what key you end up in.  We had a song we were playing in D, which the vocalist liked.  But that would have put the sax guy in the key of B, which has five sharps in the key signature.  That's enough to give any musician a real Tylenol headache!  So we pushed the key one half-tone up into Eb, a change the vocalist could still handle easily.  That put the sax into C -- no sharps or flats in the key signature -- and he was a very happy camper.  

So when someone says, "I only sing in F or Bb (or whatever)," I think it really depends on the melody range of the song.  SETH

Edited by - sethb on 08/29/2024 15:40:41

rcc56 - Posted - 08/29/2024:  16:03:01

The singer is being paid to entertain the audience, and the instrumentalists are being paid to back up the singer and look decent on stage.



The singer is not being paid to make life easier for a banjo player. Not even if the singer is playing a banjo.

If you're not being paid, you can want whatever you want, but you might not be making any friends.

Edited by - rcc56 on 08/29/2024 16:05:12