FIDDLEJOHN - Posted - 08/29/2024:  19:58:15

1. Not recently, but I’d have to say a major problem is band members who have a problem with substance abuse. I have a great deal of sympathy for those who have troubles in this way, but one or more musicians struggling with this, even if their music is brilliant, can make the rest of the band miserable. There’s the player who drinks six or ten beers every night and plays well after six or ten beers. Though if I had six beers I’d be incoherent, it’s not my job to comment on their drug of choice or level of consumption, but if that musician does decide to then go on to drink fifteen beers or add in another substance before the gig or during intermission, and their music performance consequently drops, that is my business. Stick to your tried and true substance and a tried and true quantity of that substance. And if you happen to enjoy a substance and it happens to be illegal somewhere you’re touring to, get some help for your addiction and if that’s not helping, just maybe don’t go there on tour. Don’t take your blow on the road and end up endangering your bandmates. Don’t take your hash oil to Russia or your gummies to Singapore (or to Oklahoma for that matter).



2. If there is a problem with the rhythm, the tuning, or a clash in harmonies, arrangements, etc, don’t automatically assume the problem is not yourself. If there is a problem, don’t discuss it on stage. Praise publicly, correct privately.



3. If the band or a member of the band supplies the sound system, show up early to help carry it in so it is set up well before the rehearsal or gig. Stay around after until every piece of equipment is packed up and loaded. Don’t stand around talking to audience members (no matter how cute or famous) or leave until it’s ALL loaded and you’ve taken a last look around to make sure no gear is left behind. It also doesn’t hurt to help the manager of the venue that hired you. They’ll remember your band in an extra positive way if you fold up and stack a few chairs.

Edited by - FIDDLEJOHN on 08/29/2024 20:00:33

Sean Barry - Posted - 08/29/2024:  23:47:16

The synthesis of all of the above rants and peeves is that band members who act unprofessionally have no business being in your (or my) band. "Unprofessional" includes all of the behaviors noted above, but it also includes such activities as flirting with the servers or anyone in the audience, wandering around the stage before the show or during band breaks, talking to individual people from the stage during or not during shows, ranting or even just noting your political or religious convictions from the stage during a show, or any other activity that may make any audience member the least bit uncomfortable. If you want to succeed in this business, you must play by a very strict set of rules, beginning with NOT sharing the quirks of your personality with the audience or with individual folks before, during, or after shows. You must also never ever share your pique at a microphone that isn't working, a rowdy audience member, etc, and most of all you must never ever take out on your fellow band members or on the audience that you've had a bad day. The audience came there to be entertained, and unprofessional behavior is never ever entertaining. Side note: never ever represent to your audience that your band is anything but successful and prosperous.  The audience never wants to hear about how poor you are.  Unfortunate audience reaction to any of the problems noted above: on to the next band. Forget this one.

Edited by - Sean Barry on 08/29/2024 23:51:41

Nielen - Posted - 08/29/2024:  23:49:56

quote:

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Originally posted by Texasbanjo

I don't know if you'd consider this a band peeve or not, but bands to turn the volume up so high that the first 5 rows leave or put in ear plugs. There's no reason to try to blast people out of a festival. That's my pet peeve about bands and the guy working the audio.

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Hear, hear!!!

eccles - Posted - 08/30/2024:  00:45:57

Not a band member but are folks not aware that above 80 decibels is not considered safe for any length of time by the World Health Organization. It's when you get older and hard of hearing like me that you begin to realise how important this is. If I go to a venue and the music is too loud, I leave. If my local symphony orchestra regularly plays at a level which still allows conversation that should be good enough for everyone else IMO.

SheepDip63 - Posted - 08/30/2024:  01:55:35

quote:

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Originally posted by sethb

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Originally posted by Texasbanjo   I don't know if you'd consider this a band peeve or not, but bands to turn the volume up so high that the first 5 rows leave or put in ear plugs. There's no reason to try to blast people out of a festival. That's my pet peeve about bands and the guy working the audio.

 

Volume can be a big problem.  I guess some bands figure that louder is better!  I believe part of the problem is that some musicians aren’t used to playing with others, and they may have trouble hearing themselves in a group situation.  So they crank up the volume on their amp, which often results in other band members being unable to hear themselves, so then they crank up their amps.  Pretty soon nobody can hear anyone else and the audience just wishes it would all be over quickly.

The other problem is that what you hear on the stage is not always the same thing as what the audience is hearing, so sometimes it's tough to gauge how loud you sound out in the room itself.  

We work without a sound man.  We have one 40-watt PA centered behind the band, which carries just the vocalist.  Each guitarist/banjoist has his own amp (I have a 90-watt Fender Acoustasonic), and the bass man has his own bass amp.  This setup has worked well for us for audiences up to 125 people; our goal is to fill the room with sound so that everyone can hear and enjoy it, rather than just blasting the first five rows. 

We do a sound check before each show, but that can be deceptive because we’re still playing to a mostly empty room at that point, and people will absorb sound.  But at the beginning of each show, I always ask if everyone can hear me, and I also tell people to please let us know if we’re too loud or too soft, or if they can’t hear the vocalist (balance issues).  That may sound amateurish, but again it has worked out well for us.   SETH   

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SheepDip63 - Posted - 08/30/2024:  02:02:29

I don’t really have any peeves about the members in our band (maybe I’m the annoying one) but sound has always been an issue.

jofflowson - Posted - 08/30/2024:  02:36:22

One of my pet peeves is that most people I play with understand that you need to play quietly for the guitar break; and you need to play quietly for the mandolin solo; but most people seem to think it's a great idea to play as loud as they can when I'm playing a banjo solo!

sethb - Posted - 08/30/2024:  04:10:15

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Originally posted by Sean Barry

The synthesis of all of the above rants and peeves is that band members who act unprofessionally have no business being in your (or my) band. 

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Sean, you hit the nail on the head, thank you!   

I have also learned (the hard way) that if there's a problem in the band, it's not like wine -- it doesn't get better with age. In fact, small problems have a way of growing bigger if they aren't taken care of, so the sooner you take action, the better. If you can solve the problem diplomatically and people get the message,  that's great and it's always a good first step.  But if that doesn't work, then it's time to do some major surgery!  SETH

Edited by - sethb on 08/30/2024 04:13:35

coalcracker2 - Posted - 08/30/2024:  05:44:40

Don't consider this a "pet" but nonetheless a "peeve".
Have trouble wondering why musicians subscribe to a particular site and join membership
and view entries on the forum options but "never" respond. BTW, BH seems to be a commendable exception to
this observation but not the case in some other , well-known/respected sites that shall remain nameless but you
know who they are.
Seems like the usual 5-10% always participate, professionally respond, provide assistance/suggestions/ideas/advice
and are willing to share their skills/talent.
The rest passively observe as indicated in the noted "viewed" column but will not contribute or participate in any way, shape, or form.
Very puzzling for sure !!!

hogfiddles - Posted - 08/30/2024:  05:45:10

Maybe it’s been mentioned and I just didn’t spot it.....

The biggest thing that annoys me is when I’m in the audience, the bandsmen who:

1. TALK more than the play

2. crack a lots of “inside jokes” over the mic to other band members, thinking they’re all really funny, but it LITERALLY says to the audience “we’re leaving you out of the loop”. The audience understands that to mean “you paid us to be here, but you’re not important.....”



 

Edited by - hogfiddles on 08/30/2024 05:46:45

MaineGeezer - Posted - 08/30/2024:  06:38:33

Sound volume...get a sound person who knows what they're doing. I went to a concert where the sound started out pretty decently, but the sound guy couldn't leave well enough alone and started tweaking up the volume. In short order it was distorting and sounded terrible. Another guy, I think he was in charge of the venue, came over and adjusted the settings back down. It was still plenty loud. As soon as he left though, the guy with the itchy fingers started tweaking the volume again, with the same results.

Gumbograss - Posted - 08/30/2024:  06:54:46

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Originally posted by Texasbanjo

...so if you're going to play with others you're going to have to get used to changing keys from song to song.  

 

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Sherry, yes! The vocalist should always be the decision-maker when choosing the key. That being said, I also find the constant string adjustments that are necessary when capoing to be annoying. My solution is to not use a capo unless I absolutely have to. I've learned to play in any key by using different shapes up the neck. Sometimes, this makes taking a lead more difficult. In those instances, I may decide to use a capo. 

Kevin S - Posted - 08/30/2024:  07:13:51

Great Topic!!! I just got into bluegrass about seven years ago, so most of my experiences relate to classic rock or pop wedding type bands in which I was the “leader” or, not by choice, became one. Here’s my two cents on pet peeves and suggestions on band etiquette.

Dress Code – I like somewhat matching outfits for bluegrass, but for the other stuff just plain “neat” is fine. We did a lot of summer outdoor gigs and had to go with a “neat and long pants” only rule” because of a couple of members wearing shorts, flip flops and tank tops. Photos of the band on stage help.

Sound Engineer – If you bring your own engineer, he/she should be a part of the band. They can make or break a show. I saw a three-piece Stevie Ray Vaughn tribute band once and the only thing you could hear was bass and bass drum.

Too Much Time Between Songs – In bluegrass this is easier to take. In my other bands I specifically created “blocks” of two or three songs that would somewhat run into each other.

Constructive Criticism – Players who can’t take constructive criticism are sooooo hard to work with. This goes for all aspects of being in a band, but I’ll keep my comment on this focused on learning new songs. In my last band I was fortunate to have four lead singers. When we learned a new song, we’d pass it around to see who sounded best. There were a few times I thought I did the best job but was told differently by the others. No hurt feelings on my part. I always wanted the band to sound it’s best. Recording rehearsals helps.

Learn Your Parts – We did covers so I’d always supply everyone with copies of the songs we were gonna learn, (CD’s in the old days, MP3’s later and Music app links more recently) Had a player who used to complain about how long he sat in traffic to get to rehearsal but never had time to listen to and get acquainted with the new tunes.

Mistakes – We all make them. Don’t tell the audience .... unless you totally blown an intro and have to start over. Then, make a joke of it and have the audience laugh with you not at you.

Talking Too Fast in the Mic – Good acoustics and a good sound engineer play a big part in this. Unfortunately, many times, we don’t have either. If you’re gonna talk to the audience between songs, slow you’re speaking down.

No Inside Jokes on Stage – It looks bad and puts up a wall between you and the audience.

Don’t’ Talk About Yourself on Stage – Unless you’re a nationally renowned artist, people don’t want to hear about your life story when they came to hear music.

Equipment Set-up and Take-down – When setting up, please keep in mind there are other members of the band who need to get their gear up and running. Having to step over a maze of drum cases, keyboard cases, guitar cases and amp covers makes things harder. Know your stage plot and leave room for others. When your set is over, if there’s another band up after you, put some pep in your step and get your stuff off the stage. If there is not another band after you, a little small talk with complimentary audience members is fine.

Again, great topic!!

Ybanjo - Posted - 08/30/2024:  07:39:55

One thing that really bothered me in the last band that I played with was the lead guitar player. He was really good, and knew it. That wasn't the problem... problem was that he would slip back to the amplifier controls and crank up his volume several times during a performance (he was connected with a guitar pickup). Eventually, he was so loud that nobody else could be heard. We didn't have a dedicated sound guy, either. We would mention it later and he always played innocent and said it sounded like he needed the extra volume. We always did full sound check before all performances, so we started out good....

We actually split up for various reasons, but he was central to all the reasons. He basically tried to take over the band, even though I was the one that put us together with the idea that we were all equal.

sethb - Posted - 08/30/2024:  07:46:57

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Originally posted by Kevin S   Too Much Time Between Songs – In bluegrass this is easier to take. In my other bands I specifically created “blocks” of two or three songs that would somewhat run into each other.

 

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In the radio biz, the space between tunes was called "dead air," and was to avoided at all costs.  Not only was it annoying for listeners, it was also wasted time AND lost revenue for the station.  As you noted, the same holds true for live music -- no long pauses between songs, especially if people are dancing.  You can quickly lose an entire dance floor of people that way! 

I know it takes a little time between tunes to turn the page in the music book, get a fast glimpse at the key and the intro.  I try to cover most of that time with an introduction about the song -- who wrote it and when, or maybe an anecdote about the composer.  That works well for our public library concerts where people expect some commentary between numbers.  But for cocktail parties and dances, we try to get the music going ASAP and keep it going.  We've tried to do a few medleys, but for some reason they just haven't worked out well.  SETH

BlueMountain - Posted - 08/30/2024:  10:24:10

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Originally posted by Texasbanjo

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Originally posted by sethb

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Originally posted by Texasbanjo   I don't know if you'd consider this a band peeve or not, but bands to turn the volume up so high that the first 5 rows leave or put in ear plugs. There's no reason to try to blast people out of a festival. That's my pet peeve about bands and the guy working the audio.

 

Volume can be a big problem.  I guess some bands figure that louder is better!  I believe part of the problem is that some musicians aren’t used to playing with others, and they may have trouble hearing themselves in a group situation.  So they crank up the volume on their amp, which often results in other band members being unable to hear themselves, so then they crank up their amps.  Pretty soon nobody can hear anyone else and the audience just wishes it would all be over quickly.

The other problem is that what you hear on the stage is not always the same thing as what the audience is hearing, so sometimes it's tough to gauge how loud you sound out in the room itself.  

We work without a sound man.  We have one 40-watt PA centered behind the band, which carries just the vocalist.  Each guitarist/banjoist has his own amp (I have a 90-watt Fender Acoustasonic), and the bass man has his own bass amp.  This setup has worked well for us for audiences up to 125 people; our goal is to fill the room with sound so that everyone can hear

and enjoy it, rather than just blasting the first five rows. 

We do a sound check before each show, but that can be deceptive because we’re still playing to a mostly empty room at that point, and people will absorb sound.  But at the beginning of each show, I always ask if everyone can hear me, and I also tell people to please let us know if we’re too loud or too soft, or if they can’t hear the vocalist (balance issues).  That may sound amateurish, but again it has worked out well for us.   SETH   

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I remember going to Glen Rose one year to hear what I considered a very special band, well known, well liked.  They had a sound man and he managed all the sound.  When their gig started, it was so loud that it literally hurt my ears.  I moved off the 5th row and moved to the back of the festival (outside, roofed but not enclosed).  Even at the very back it was so loud it really muddled the sound of the band.  People were leaving in droves because of the loudness.   I was so disappointed because I traveled over 200 miles mainly to hear that one band.  I find no reason for any group, professional or amateur, to be that loud.    I still love to hear the band and especially the banjo picker, but only in CDs or videos where I can control the sound.  

 

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Volume is a huge problem in some settings. Sound people for rock bands assume that people want to FEEL the music in their guts, which requires very loud sound--definitely enough to cause hearing damage. (After a couple songs, my ears shut down and the rest of the concert sounds like I'm hearing it under water.) Many bluegrass sound people have more sense. There are decent decimal meters for iPhones, some of them free. Sound people should use them. The maximum volume of an acoustic guitar from two feet away is rarely above 85 decibels. Banjos, mandolins, dobros, and fiddles can hit 90 to 98 decibels. No ne in the audience should have to listen to sound louder than it would be in a living room with the band. The sound person should use a meter and adjust the volume for each instrument to fit that. Each person in the band should be trained in the relative volume per distance to the mic for the mic being used. When I'm playing, at times it seems I'm playing too loud because the instrument is right below me, but I have no idea whether it sounds that way to the audience. The sound people should be relied on to maintain the appropriate volume, using a meter

BlueMountain - Posted - 08/30/2024:  10:39:20

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Originally posted by sethb

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Originally posted by Will Frady 

There has to be a pecking order . Someone has to be the boss/ leader that leads by example and holds everyone to a higher standard. The leader/boss cannot worry about offending someone, too many people looking for ways to get offended these days. 

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While many musicians appear to be very self-confident, underneath that thin veneer they're usually mushballs and are very easily hurt. Add to this the fact that some people don't take criticism (and even constructive criticism) well, and I've found you need to be diplomatic about getting things fixed. 

Sometimes I will frame the issue as a question, such as "Do you think that was a little too fast?" or "Were we together on that last chorus?"  I also try to speak to a band member privately if possible, to avoid embarrassing him/her in front of the rest of the group.  But I've still had a few rare occasions when I've just lost it and blown up in front of everyone.  Heck, nobody's perfect!  SETH

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I play in several jams with a fiddler who is around 85 and always bragging about having taught old-time fiddling for 25 years and having a repertoire of 165 fiddle tunes--though in our jams he always calls for the same three or four tunes. Week after week. I really like him, but he won't take breaks on songs he hasn't played before or in any keys but A D or G. And he only plays the melody! Last week he sat beside me and told me I should stop doing "new songs" (like the Delmore Brothers or Bill Monroe or Flatt and Scruggs tunes!). I let him have it, telling him he should use that vaunted repertoire and play different songs instead of the same ones. That night I felt very bad, and next time I saw him I apologized for saying that--while insisting that I was right, though wrong in how I attacked him.

BlueMountain - Posted - 08/30/2024:  10:54:18

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Originally posted by Hot Club Man

Regarding dress on a gig. I am a firm believer that the audience listen with their eyes meaning that if you dress well you are well on your way to a successful gig. So true!

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Where I play, we are all retired and in Florida. "The Uniform" for men--band or audience--is polo shirt and Bermuda shorts. A guy in an old t-shirt or running shorts sticks out. If I go to some bluegrass show and the band is in matching suits and string ties and cowboy hats, fine--it's a tribute to the bands of old when a suit meant something different than it does today. But I don't admire it. I'd rather the band members are less formal. (Now, Colton Powers, who plays banjo with Seth Mulder's band, wears a snazzy suit and hat and strikes matinee-idol poses when he plays, but it's meant ironically and it's fun.) When I go to expensive restaurants, the waiters are wearing black suits and white shirts or maybe even tuxedoes. So what does that say about the band these days? That they are a bunch of waiters? Looks that way to me.

Hot Club Man - Posted - 08/30/2024:  10:58:56

Been in the live music business for many years. If you use a good sound engineer they 'are worth their
wait in gold'--as the saying goes. A good sound engineer is another member of the band.

BlueMountain - Posted - 08/30/2024:  11:05:51

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Originally posted by sethb

And somewhat related to the "genre" peeve is the "too creative" peeve.  For many older tunes like “Whispering” or “The World Is Waiting For The Sunrise,” there can be several different and legitimate ways to chord the tune.  Additionally, some lead sheets aren’t always accurate, either!  So we’re always open to trying different or alternative chord changes.

However -- especially for older tunes, some players want to “update” the chord changes to more modern ones.  So they’ll want to go for a ninth or an eleventh instead of a plain vanilla major chord or a seventh. There’s no denying that many of these extended chords are lovely.  But do they belong in a song written in 1916 or 1924?  Maybe, but probably not.  Do they sometimes clash with the melody note?  Yep! 

At least to my ears, many Roaring Twenties numbers that are bright, uptempo tunes need the bright sound of major and dominant seventh chords.  If you start going into ninths and that sort of stuff, I feel it changes the original sound and feel of the song, and usually not for the better.  

So my theory is, let's play the song the way it was originally written, with the original chords. Then we can see if any chord modifications would be a good idea, and if so, we'll ALL play them -- no brave souls wandering off into the chord wilderness by themselves, please!  SETH 

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It's a bit like playing Gypsy swing versions of the same tunes you play but WITHOUT substituting a 6th chord for any major chord possible or substituting a minor 7th wherever it works. I've been playing with a Dixieland jam this year, and it didn't take long to realize that 6th chords and minor 7ths occur, but are uncommon. As for a 6/9? None.

sethb - Posted - 08/30/2024:  12:48:51

I personally love the sound of augmented and diminished chords, I think they're just beautiful. They were very common in pop tunes from the 1890's through the 1930's, but less so in the 40's and onward.  (But there is an augmented chord in the 1963 rock & roll tune "It's My Party" ! )

I like to substitute an augmented chord for a dominant seventh turnaround chord. Sometimes it works and sometimes it clashes, so I need to check with the rest of the group to see if it clicks. I also like to use a diminished chord when I'm stuck for a melody chord on a certain note; a diminished chord will often do the job, even if it's not technically correct.  Diminished chords are also my go-to chords for inserting into a intro chord progression or a fancy fill up the fretboard. 

But I still need to check in advance with the vocalist and the clarinetist to make sure these chord modifications work in the specific song we're playing.   While an audience may like to be surprised, that's not the case with other band members!  SETH

Edited by - sethb on 08/30/2024 12:56:10

Compass56 - Posted - 08/30/2024:  13:49:23

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Originally posted by writerrad

A band that does not rehearse is not a band, its a jam session of individuals

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I'm going to respectfully disagree with this statement.  If a bandleader who hires me want a rehearsal, I'll do it, but those rehearsal never get called. Most of the guys with whom I play do gigs two or three times every week.  It's just not practical, and I'm pretty sure most of the people I play gigs with feel the same way. No, it doesn't sound like "a jam session of individuals." We've all been playing standards for decades.  If someone decides to do an intro. we all know what he's up to pretty much instantly, so we can do what's required to make that intro sound good.  If some band leader want "Misty" as a shuffle or "Autumn Leaves" in 3/4 in the key of Dm, that's his perogative.  Our job is to play his vision.  If a gig needs to be treated as a play complete with a script and rehearsals, I'll treat the gig as such, but I don't think most gigs are so complex that they require that kind of treatment.  To me, if the bandmates have practiced their butts off at home, and if they're checked out on a lot of tunes, and if they listen well, they should be able to sound thoroughly rehearsed without rehearsing.

msweinblatt - Posted - 08/30/2024:  14:46:10

I agree with all the previous comments regarding neatness, timeliness etc. I’d also like to add a bit of musical basics. When someone else is soloing is NOT the time to show off your new backup lick. Most fiddle players disappear into the background unless soloing. I’ve been on stage trying to hear myself think with a fiddle sawing in one ear and two harmonicas in the other. Use a bit of common sense and LISTEN to the other musicians in the band. It also helps to look like you’re having fun out there.

writerrad - Posted - 08/30/2024:  14:50:43

Maybe  I was overboard or thinking more about the bluegrass and old time circuit, rather than pop music,    I think you are right in regard to trained professional musicians, especially working in established genre of music and venues associated with pop music.  Nobody is going to get called if they cannot take the chair and play.

My comment was more or less from the point of view of playing banjo in old time revivalist groups or even on the fringes of Bluegrass groups, so many people come from the informal "jam" culture which can be the opposite of the way that you play music even in old time and bluegrass in a real band.   



So many people you confront in Bluegrass and more in Old Time revivalism that "jams"  are their only experience with music which also leads to the music being ground down to a pablum of the averaging often to the lowest common denominator of a tune, rather that seeking a particular arrangement.    

I constantly meet people at old time festivals or when I attended our local bluegrass jam who would be puzzled when experienced musicians familiar with songs and tunes would start to discuss how  in particular they saw the group playing a tune or song or what they wanted someone to do.   

Of course, professional musicians in any particular genre should know how to play as it should be played in the genre, and know how to take direction without much rehearsal as you suggest. 

Myself, I tend to see a string band situation in either bluegrass or old time or really anything else mostly acoustic, especially a public performance or a dance, as something very particular where if I am playing guitar or banjo there are a variety of very particular roles that I will be playing depending on what the leader wants and rehearsals help.

Again, since I have been a child (I am 77) I have had friends of my parents who were professional jazz or dance musicians who might show up at the AFM hall early on a Saturday morning and go off and play in a wedding or party or dinner band with people they might not have played before to pay the rent without much rehearsal, but to do anything decent in genre where there is so much variation and so many different sub styles within the general style, rehearsals  do seem usual.   

Thanks for qualifying my overstatement

writerrad - Posted - 08/30/2024:  14:55:42

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Originally posted by BlueMountain

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Originally posted by sethb

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Originally posted by Will Frady 

There has to be a pecking order . Someone has to be the boss/ leader that leads by example and holds everyone to a higher standard. The leader/boss cannot worry about offending someone, too many people looking for ways to get offended these days. 

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While many musicians appear to be very self-confident, underneath that thin veneer they're usually mushballs and are very easily hurt. Add to this the fact that some people don't take criticism (and even constructive criticism) well, and I've found you need to be diplomatic about getting things fixed. 

Sometimes I will frame the issue as a question, such as "Do you think that was a little too fast?" or "Were we together on that last chorus?"  I also try to speak to a band member privately if possible, to avoid embarrassing him/her in front of the rest of the group.  But I've still had a few rare occasions when I've just lost it and blown up in front of everyone.  Heck, nobody's perfect!  SETH

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I play in several jams with a fiddler who is around 85 and always bragging about having taught old-time fiddling for 25 years and having a repertoire of 165 fiddle tunes--though in our jams he always calls for the same three or four tunes. Week after week. I really like him, but he won't take breaks on songs he hasn't played before or in any keys but A D or G. And he only plays the melody! Last week he sat beside me and told me I should stop doing "new songs" (like the Delmore Brothers or Bill Monroe or Flatt and Scruggs tunes!). I let him have it, telling him he should use that vaunted repertoire and play different songs instead of the same ones. That night I felt very bad, and next time I saw him I apologized for saying that--while insisting that I was right, though wrong in how I attacked him.

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writerrad - Posted - 08/30/2024:  15:02:33

"t he won't take breaks on songs he hasn't played before or in any keys but A D or G. And he only plays the melody! Last week he sat beside me and told me I should stop doing "new songs" (like the Delmore Brothers or Bill Monroe or Flatt and Scruggs tunes!)."



Sound like he is just into the Old Time Music or some regional equivalent genre or is a fiddler out of the tradition of traditional fiddling. That is pretty normal for traditional fiddling in Southern or many regional traditions, although if some areas like Mississippi and West Tennessee and Texas old time you will get a lot of fiddle tunes in F and C.



Pretty normal for an old time music jam, even among top level semi professional players to rotate between playing in G, D, or A, and that is pretty much it.  Part of that in old time is that  in most traditional styles, a different tuning is used for a different key for the banjo and for some fiddle tunes to play traditional style in a different key,  something that jazz musician friends of mind found weird when I took up the banjo and explained all this to them.

I did some gigs in 2012 and 2013 with the Ebony Hillbillies a band of Black musicians with professional credits like the Saturday Night Live Band,  James Brown's Revue, the writer of "Where is the Love" and "Just the Two of us" but who developed a repertoire of old time music,   I was substituting for their banjoist who could not travel due to health problems.    It was the kind of band where when the percussionist was sick, we would call in a guy who had been house drummer at the Apollo and before that at Motown!    I was the only one in the band whose real background was just Old Time music, and to a lesser extent Bluegrass.  Some of these musicians would complain about always in D, G, or A.   I remember at a gig at the Smithsonian Folklife Festival, a couple people saying B flat is such a sweet key, can't we do a B flat tune now and then, but that isnt there in that genre and tradition.

That is pretty much a line between old time music which tries to emulate a folk or semi-professional music passed on by community tradition and bluegrass which starts out as a professional show business music launched by some of the most exceptional players and serious musicians in history like Monroe and Scruggs.



Ater playing mostly old time, when I moved to W Palm Beach, I started going to the Bluegrass jam here which at the time included some really top players who had played together for decades and retirees and snowbirds who had played in professional Bluegrass jams. I played guitar not banjo in Bluegrass, but I was reminded that unlike Old Time, a bluegrass player is expected to play in whatever key, the song is going sung in. If the singer really wants it in B or F, or D, you should be able to play it in that key if you are a bluegrass guitarist.



People would ask you to leave if you asked to play a tune in B in a serious old time jam.

Edited by - writerrad on 08/30/2024 15:14:51

writerrad - Posted - 08/30/2024:  15:27:01

quote:

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Originally posted by Hot Club Man

Regarding dress on a gig. I am a firm believer that the audience listen with their eyes meaning that if you dress well you are well on your way to a successful gig. So true!

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I tend to think musicians are professionals, and are carrying out a function in the community and continuing a tradition, and should dress appropriately.   Musicians should dress in a way that befits the importance of the occasion and their station in it/

I play mostly old time music though have played in one or another Bluegrass bands.  Sometimes people I play with in old time look like they are dressed to take out the trash or clean up the attic, even if they have two doctorates or are a college dean or an attorney with a 7 figure income.

This is exactly the opposite of the more plebian and farming people who created these musics for whom dressing up appropriately in a nice Sunday suit was what you did going to a dance and going to play.   Bill Monroe the father of Bluegrass, pretty much maintained the discipline (after he got rid of the jodpurs LOL) that his band members wore suits or at least sports jackets.    

I think this is a bit more the tradition among Black musicians of all kinds.   When Leadbelly came to NYC in the late 30s and early 40s,  the blues duo Sonny Terry and Brownie McGhee came to NYC to appear in concerts and a play, but stayed at Leadbelly's apartment until they  got their own places.   Leadbelly would not let them stay with him and his wife in his apartment until they stopped going around in jeans and work shirts and stopped carrying the guitar and the harmonica in sacks.   He told them musicians are professionals, get a suit, get a case for that guitar, or do not stay in my apartment!

Edited by - writerrad on 08/30/2024 15:28:49

writerrad - Posted - 08/30/2024:  15:44:28

I think the difference is in different genre.  In Bluegrass it is pretty established that the song should be pitched in the key that the singer thinks is best within a broad range.  I have been told by internationall well known people in Bluegrass several times that Monroe told them that a song with words should be pitched where the singer's voice is.  If you follow his record from the 40s on, often after a singer left him or he fired him,  Monroe would raise the pitch of a song a step just to show up the old singer that the replacement was better and the former "wasn't nuthin."

When I moved up to West Palm Beach from Miami 12 years ago, and started playing guitar with a very highly accomplished Bluegrass jam in this area that included people who had been in bands in this area together for 3 or 4 decades, and in the Winter "snowbird" guests from up North and in Europe who had been on recordings I owned,  I was shocked that a singer would ask for a tune in B or C sharp or some other Key, but then I was playing guitar, not banjo.

sethb - Posted - 08/30/2024:  16:06:11

quote:

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Originally posted by Will Frady

There has to be a pecking order . Someone has to be the boss/ leader that leads by example and holds everyone to a higher standard. The leader/boss cannot worry about offending someone, too many people looking for ways to get offended these days .

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Regarding bandleaders: I just remembered what another musician said when I told him it was tough dealing with some of the issues we were having in the band.  Paraphrasing Shakespeare, he said "Heavy is the head that wears the crown" ! 

I think a good bandleader needs to be a psychologist, a kindergarten teacher, a drill sergeant, a cheerleader and a baby sitter, in addition to being a good musician!  SETH

Edited by - sethb on 08/30/2024 16:08:01

writerrad - Posted - 08/30/2024:  16:07:12

There are a lot of different answers to a lot of the questions on this topic insofar as people here play in a variety of different genres of music from trad-jazz, pop, bluegrass, swing, black roots music,  folk and old time and possibly Irish or CW.   

.   If you are playing old time music,  then you are playing in D, G, and A on a five string because banjoists often tune differently for different keys as part of the tradition.  Sometimes people will let you play in C.    

 As an old time revivalist and blues  player,  I sometimes bring 3 different banjos to a jam, a band performance, or if I am giving classes, so I dont have to retune as tunes are done in different tunings traditionally.   A jazz or pop player will should be able to play in any key without a capo or retuning.

In Bluegrass where some tunes are seen as traditionally in certain keys,  but often a vocal song will depend on the singer or the leader's preference.  Monroe successively raised the pitch on several of his vocal standards after a singer quit or was fired from his band, to show off that the new singer or Monroe himself could sing higher.   As Monroe maintained a band from around 1939 to his death in 1996 this gave a range of pitches to put a tune.    If I am playing guitar in bluegrass,  and the leader or vocalist wants to do a song the previous singer did in G in A  or  B even,  that is how it is.

On the other hand in tradition-oriented old time tunes and songs are often set in one pitch or one tuning.  I have carried three different banjos to old time performances or classes and presentations I give rather than have people waiting for me to retune before playing a tune.

There are a lot of different answers to a lot of these questions depending on what musical genre you are playing in.  There seem to be a bunch of people here who are playing jazz or pop music on the banjo which is great.

Will Frady - Posted - 08/30/2024:  17:11:34

Brother Seth it sounds like you have things in perspective. It’s hard at times to keep balance of things . It sounds like you have the right outlook . Best of luck to you .

NotABanjoYoda - Posted - 08/30/2024:  17:28:36

I read through this thread and realised its mainly about unpaid musicians getting together with people they may or may not know and trying to get along with rules of etiquette.

Theres a simple solution, do not go and hold your own.

Now if your in a gigging band that makes money and you need the money, the problems are different. My band practices our sets that we have been doing to many times, then we hold open jamming if someone wants a new song. We then b**** about some of our equipment issues (sometimes). Then we argue about what venues to drop and accept and rules some venues have. Then practice wednesday is over.

sethb - Posted - 08/30/2024:  17:31:07

quote:

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Originally posted by Will Frady

Brother Seth it sounds like you have things in perspective. It’s hard at times to keep balance of things . It sounds like you have the right outlook . Best of luck to you .

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Will, thanks for the kind words.  I'm just paddling as fast as I can!  SETH

sethb - Posted - 08/30/2024:  17:39:55

quote:

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Originally posted by Compass56

quote:

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Originally posted by writerrad

A band that does not rehearse is not a band, its a jam session of individuals

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I'm going to respectfully disagree with this statement.  If a bandleader who hires me want a rehearsal, I'll do it, but those rehearsal never get called. Most of the guys with whom I play do gigs two or three times every week.  It's just not practical, and I'm pretty sure most of the people I play gigs with feel the same way. No, it doesn't sound like "a jam session of individuals." We've all been playing standards for decades.  If someone decides to do an intro. we all know what he's up to pretty much instantly, so we can do what's required to make that intro sound good.  [snip]  To me, if the bandmates have practiced their butts off at home, and if they're checked out on a lot of tunes, and if they listen well, they should be able to sound thoroughly rehearsed without rehearsing.

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Tony, it sounds to me that what you're describing is what I believe is/was called a "club date."  I think that's when musicians who have never played together before are called or assigned to play as a group for a specific gig.  

If I'm right, that requires an entirely different (higher) level of musicianship and knowledge of plenty of tunes (or a good set of fake books), plus a healthy dose of confidence. Congrats to you for playing those types of gigs, which you apparently enjoy and prefer over being in the same band all the time.  SETH  

Jerry Hatrick - Posted - 08/31/2024:  02:49:25

Most of the poor etiquette examples above relate to poor stagecraft to my mind. That can stem from inexperience of performing generally, and in some cases just plain ignorance. How far can we expect new band members to be aware of all that, given that we all had to learn that the hard way? Some seasoned and well received performers I find are actually quite ignorant musically, even though are accomplished as say songwriters and singers.

One of my most embarrassing performances was playing with a singer guitarist who I imagine had learnt to play by numbers, by copying others or maybe just trial and error trying out chord sequences. He invited me to play some mandolin accompaniment to a new song he was keen to showcase, but he couldn’t tell me what key he was going to use. He said the first chord is a D minor, but wasn’t about the key because he’d got the capo on the second fret; no problem, I said E minor is fine for mandolin.

I politely stood behind and to one side of him on stage, to allow him the limelight, but unnoticed by me he put the capo on the third fret. Worse still, the opening chord was not the tonic chord but a preamble to a cycle of C, F and G chords, actually putting him in E flat major. Those of you who know your scales will know that the only common notes between E flat major and E minor are G, C and D, so we were firmly in train wreck territory. The song was also rather long, but at least it gave me chance to work out what key we were in by the end.

How far then do we expect band mates to be musically literate? Sorry to say so, but I find that guitar players tend to be the least knowledgable about music.

sethb - Posted - 08/31/2024:  04:37:31

One of my biggest pet peeves is musicians who don’t practice the music before they come to rehearsal. It’s hard to think of anything more aggravating, rude, selfish and inconsiderate than someone who isn’t prepared to play a new tune with the rest of the band. 

I had a rhythm guitarist once who was actually pretty good, except that he didn’t practice before rehearsals.  So everyone else had to sit around while he figured out which fingerings and chord inversions he wanted to use, and while he tripped over a few passing chords that probably could have been eliminated anyway.  We also had to play the bridge a few times for him, because he wasn’t familiar with it.  And so on. Was he lazy, arrogant or ignorant? Who knows?

Furthermore, because he hadn’t looked at the music in advance, he had no suggestions when it came time to discuss a head arrangement. Should the intro be the last eight bars, the first four chords, a double vamp, a straight countoff or something else? How about some stoptime somewhere, a break or two, a stretch or a dramatic hold?  Should we play the verse or not?  Do you want the vocal to come back in at the bridge or on the last chorus? How about a tag? But he never had anything to offer.  

Oddly enough, he eventually left the band of his own accord, saying that the music was too hard for him.  But hey, it's not like we were the New York Philharmonic!  Maybe if he had practiced a little bit . . . .   

That reminds me of an old musical joke with more than a grain of truth in it. When a student came for his weekly piano lesson, the teacher asked him “How many times did you practice this past week?  The kid replied, “Including today?”  SETH

Edited by - sethb on 08/31/2024 04:49:37

Compass56 - Posted - 08/31/2024:  05:03:38

A lot of the musical problems that fall into the broader topic of bad band etiquette could be solved or at least lessened if musicians would simply work at distinguishing songs from records. Many people use the term “song” when they really mean “record.” Such mislabeling is fine for people not performing on stage. When performers confuse these two terms or use them interchangeably, conflict and confusion can ensue.

jayaw - Posted - 08/31/2024:  06:35:43

quote:

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Originally posted by TB4

This topic is original and interesting. I attach a short video in which the band leader scolds me and the drummer, who had asked me a question. As for finding oneself in embarrassing situations, this has often happened to me: being an occasional guest in N.O. style bands, very often the leaders would start a song without telling me the title and its key. I can't read, but my ear has always saved me from disasters...

https://youtu.be/HpVHL1c6GZA

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Your video is "private," so we can't access it. I'd be interested to see it if you're able to change the settings. Thanks

sethb - Posted - 08/31/2024:  07:02:05

Speaking of practicing, I always thought that when I “got good” on my instrument, I wouldn’t have to practice anymore.  But I discovered that as you become better, you still need to practice in order to stay at that level or to continue improving.  Besides, you want to keep those calluses on the fingertips of your fretting hand in good shape!  

Violinist Fritz Kreisler once said, “When I don’t practice for one day, I notice it.  When I don’t practice for two days, the orchestra notices it.  And when I don’t practice for three days, the audience notices it.”  SETH

Edited by - sethb on 08/31/2024 07:08:33

Kevin S - Posted - 08/31/2024:  07:26:01

@ Sethb
Originally posted by Sethb
“Oddly enough, he eventually left the band of his own accord, saying that the music was too hard for him. But hey, it's not like we were the New York Philharmonic! Maybe if he had practiced a little bit . . . . “

It sounds to me like your guitar player may have had a different idea of the band’s expectations when he joined and may have been envisioning something more “relaxed” and jammy.

There are many different “levels” of bands that require different levels of commitment. By this I mean the range can go from professional musicians whose gigs put bread on the table, to a group of musicians/friends who get together once or twice a month to “practice” for the three church events they play each year. The latter being more of a social gathering and a way to get your musical ya-yas out. Both of these, and all the levels in between, are fine and have their place in the world. The type of band and the importance of commitment expected are things that should be laid out up front and everyone involved on the same page. A five-piece band where two members are super-serious, one member just wants to get out of the house for a few hours a week, and one member who only wants to do sporadic gigs but put on a professional show, ain’t gonna work. I know .... I been there.

sethb - Posted - 08/31/2024:  07:55:10

quote: Originally posted by Kevin S   

It sounds to me like your guitar player may have had a different idea of the band’s expectations when he joined and may have been envisioning something more “relaxed” and jammy.

 

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Kevin, you may be right about the guitarist situation I described.  And you're also right that everyone in a band needs to have about the same expectations and commitment level.  

In our case, the band was playing a lot of free nursing home gigs in the beginning for experience.  But we eventually graduated to paid jobs like concerts in public libraries and dances or parties at municipal rec centers.  We also played dinner shows at restaurants and cocktail parties at hotels and over-55 communities. 

I felt that once we started getting paid to perform, that changed things considerably and we had to give equivalent value or better for the money we were taking.  While I didn't expect the band to sound like Vince Giordano's Nighthawks, I did expect a certain level of musicality and professionalism.  That paid off as the good word-of-mouth started to spread. 

Unfortunately I guess the guitarist didn't have the same expectations, and he didn't want to grow with the band, so he wanted a divorce.  In retrospect, I probably should have seen that coming!  Another good lesson learned . . . . SETH

Edited by - sethb on 08/31/2024 07:59:51

sethb - Posted - 09/01/2024:  09:06:56

I just wanted to take a minute and thank everyone for responding to my original post, and for  adding their thoughts, suggestions and "war stories" to this thread.  

I've learned a lot, and I appreciate your time and trouble in posting!  SETH  

Edited by - sethb on 09/01/2024 09:11:42

Kevin S - Posted - 09/01/2024:  19:37:35

@SethB

My last post on this topic ....

Your entire last post was spot on! A close relative of mine was in a 9-piece family and friends’ band that “grew” from free gigs at the church and block parties to decent paying jobs in clubs, at events and at weddings. They had the same issue; some continued to treat it as a hobby while others saw the importance of polishing up the act to give the client a professional level product.

I’ve always equated this with sports. Yes, it’s fun to play a softball game at a picnic where the right fielder has a beer next to him and one guy has to have his daughter run for him because he can’t make it to first base. But it’s also fun to play in a competitive league where everyone takes things more seriously and your team is playing for a paying sponsor. Again, both have their place, but sooner or later mixing players usually causes issues.

Best to all the others who chimed in on Seth’s post. I too learned a few things and got to vent at the same time!

Dale Diehl - Posted - 09/03/2024:  05:53:30

I'll have to plead the fifth on "noodling".
A band member told me that was a banjo player thing.
I'm working on it.

A Recovering Banjo Player.

sethb - Posted - 09/03/2024:  09:08:55

Dale, I'm not sure it's a banjo thing, because I had a clarinetist that noodled, too.  But the banjo noodling was more annoying.  I'm not sure why that was -- and I'm a banjoist myself!

And if it's annoying to the other musicians, just think how annoying it must be to the audience, who didn't come to hear 10 minutes of pattern picking (on the same four chords over and over) before the show! 

If all of these noodlers just can't help themselves, then at least please turn down your mics/amps.  But the real answer is -- practice at home, people!  SETH  

Edited by - sethb on 09/03/2024 09:15:39

Texasbanjo - Posted - 09/03/2024:  11:21:03

Noodling is irritating wherever it happens, not just on stage.

I remember going to Camp Bluegrass for several years in a row. There were always several banjo players who continually noodled around and kept other members from hearing what was going on and with half a dozen acting like that, it became almost intolerable. Several times they were asked to stop and would for a moment, then start back up again.

Same thing happened at jams, some banjo pickers just couldn't keep their picks off their strings.

While they might be enamored with their picking, others aren't! It's something to remember, wherever you are.

sethb - Posted - 09/03/2024:  13:05:30

quote:

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Originally posted by Texasbanjo   Noodling is irritating wherever it happens, not just on stage.

 

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I'm going to be as charitable as possible about noodling, and say that it's either due to 1) nervousness or 2) being ultra self-centered and oblivious to the people or the situation around you.  I was also going to add a 3) "showing off," but most noodling never seems to reach a level of anything worth listening to!  

Whatever the reason, it's really immature, juvenile and very unprofessional.  People need to realize this and knock it off if they want to be taken seriously.  SETH  

Edited by - sethb on 09/03/2024 13:14:43

Fathand - Posted - 09/05/2024:  17:25:44

I may have missed it previously posted, but what about band members that bring spouses along to a gig. Probably ok at a festival but I see it happen at private parties or a business events. Sometimes the band gets fed and thats another plate for the event organizers. One husband that was brought along proceeded to avail himself of the bar until he became quite loud, embarrassing us.

Most of us wouldnt take a spouse or friend along to most other kinds of jobs. Why would they think a gig is different?

FIDDLEJOHN - Posted - 09/05/2024:  18:06:02

Even worse than bringing spouses to gigs is taking them along on tour (and of course I’m not referring to spouses who are band members, road managers or otherwise a part of the group).