sethb - Posted - 09/06/2024:  12:35:43

As my former boss at my day job used to say, "You can't make this stuff up!"  SETH

Compass56 - Posted - 09/08/2024:  05:34:01

quote:

---

Originally posted by sethb

quote:

---

Originally posted by Compass56

quote:

---

Originally posted by writerrad

A band that does not rehearse is not a band, its a jam session of individuals

---

I'm going to respectfully disagree with this statement.  If a bandleader who hires me want a rehearsal, I'll do it, but those rehearsal never get called. Most of the guys with whom I play do gigs two or three times every week.  It's just not practical, and I'm pretty sure most of the people I play gigs with feel the same way. No, it doesn't sound like "a jam session of individuals." We've all been playing standards for decades.  If someone decides to do an intro. we all know what he's up to pretty much instantly, so we can do what's required to make that intro sound good.  [snip]  To me, if the bandmates have practiced their butts off at home, and if they're checked out on a lot of tunes, and if they listen well, they should be able to sound thoroughly rehearsed without rehearsing.

---

Tony, it sounds to me that what you're describing is what I believe is/was called a "club date."  I think that's when musicians who have never played together before are called or assigned to play as a group for a specific gig.  

If I'm right, that requires an entirely different (higher) level of musicianship and knowledge of plenty of tunes (or a good set of fake books), plus a healthy dose of confidence. Congrats to you for playing those types of gigs, which you apparently enjoy and prefer over being in the same band all the time.  SETH  

---

Seth, I do enjoy playing in different combinations, but for the most part the people with whom I play are not complete strangers. Yes, I play with people I do not know from time to time, but most of my gigs are small combos (three, four, five, or six players) with guys with whom I've done many gigs over the year, but maybe not in that particular configuration.  The EP I did a year and a half ago is a good example of this dynamic.  I called five guys, all of whom I had done many gigs, but the group had never and probably will never play a gig together, but I know I'll play with all of them many, many more times.  I must admit that I do love when there's a complete stranger on the gig.  Often, that person will bring new dimensions to a tune that I had played many times, dimensions that I had never thought of before.  I love those gigs with the occasional stranger, but I'm not talented enough to do those gigs all the time.  The gigs I really love and the ones I do the most often are gigs with interesting combinations of my hometown heroes with whom I play often. A lot of my gigs feature one of two amazing trumpet players who play completely differently from one another, and I play differently with each of them.  'So fun!

sethb - Posted - 09/08/2024:  05:53:12

Tony -- Sound like you have a good plan!  

BTW, I've always been told that people should play with other musicians who are better than they are, so that they can learn from them.  I've been able to do that once in a while, and it was very interesting and helpful, I wish I could do that more often.   SETH 

sethb - Posted - 09/08/2024:  13:39:37

Well, I thought we had just about exhausted all of the possible band etiquette violations, but I was wrong!

We played a concert at a municipal rec center today.  It was open to the public, so my wife came along, too.  After the show she said, "did you know the rhythm guitarist was chewing gum during the gig? It looked a little odd." 

I hadn't noticed it, but obviously my wife and some other people in the audience did see it. Now I like gum as much as anybody else, but really --- if you're that bored when you're playing, please let me know and we'll work on a few more challenging pieces with more chord changes per measure! 

I don't think it looks so good on stage, either.  Save it for when you're playing a honky-tonk (and my apologies to all the honky-tonks out there, no offense intended).   But I guess there is a bright side here --- at least it wasn't bubble gum.  SETH

Edited by - sethb on 09/08/2024 13:40:43

Mojesty - Posted - 09/08/2024:  15:10:55

Wow, this is getting to be a complicated discussion. Yes. a band of several musicians definitely needs rehearsals. A trio or quartet may not, if you know the other musicians and they are experienced. Are they a Band? The Rolling Stones were a quartet whom called themselves a "Band".
As another humorous memory of playing with experienced strange musicians, I did a gig with a piano player at a nice hotel in Toronto. It was a 3 hour gig, and he only played in the key of E major and not even Eb. The Manager wanted every song to be a vocal. It was supposed to be a 3 month gig, and we were fired that night. I have directed and played with all size of groups, and they all have to be dealth with in different ways. Jim

sethb - Posted - 09/08/2024:  15:39:45

Well, Irving Berlin only played in F#, but 1) he was Irving Berlin and 2) he owned a transposing upright piano that enabled him to play a song in any key.  

Too bad your pianist didn't have a keyboard with a transposing wheel, that might have saved the day!   SETH

Compass56 - Posted - 09/09/2024:  11:22:36

quote:

---

Originally posted by sethb

Well, Irving Berlin only played in F#, but 1) he was Irving Berlin and 2) he owned a transposing upright piano that enabled him to play a song in any key.  

Too bad your pianist didn't have a keyboard with a transposing wheel, that might have saved the day!   SETH

---

According to biography I read, that contraption Mr. Berlin had on his piano was not all that flexible. It brought the keys down a half step putting him in the key of F, but I may have read bad information.

sethb - Posted - 09/09/2024:  11:52:57

Tony, according to the Smithsonian Museum, which has Mr. Berlin's piano, the piano was made in 1940 and could mechanically transpose the piano's action into any key.  Here's a closeup photo of the transposing selector mechanism (see attached pic).   Of course, even getting just from the key of F# (6 sharps!) into F (1 flat) would be good, too.  

Although I'm not a pianist or an organist, I've heard that some electronic keyboards and organs now have a built-in  "transposing wheel" that digitally accomplishes the same thing as Berlin's mechanical transposer gizmo.  SETH 

Edited by - sethb on 09/09/2024 11:57:26

Compass56 - Posted - 09/09/2024:  13:27:09

quote:

---

Originally posted by sethb

Tony, according to the Smithsonian Museum, which has Mr. Berlin's piano, the piano was made in 1940 and could mechanically transpose the piano's action into any key.  Here's a closeup photo of the transposing selector mechanism (see attached pic).   Of course, even getting just from the key of F# (6 sharps!) into F (1 flat) would be good, too.  

Although I'm not a pianist or an organist, I've heard that some electronic keyboards and organs now have a built-in  "transposing wheel" that digitally accomplishes the same thing as Berlin's mechanical transposer gizmo.  SETH 

---

That is interesting! Thanks  for showing me that. 

johnstephen - Posted - 09/10/2024:  07:24:28

quote:

---

Originally posted by sethb

Tony, according to the Smithsonian Museum, which has Mr. Berlin's piano, the piano was made in 1940 and could mechanically transpose the piano's action into any key.  Here's a closeup photo of the transposing selector mechanism (see attached pic).   Of course, even getting just from the key of F# (6 sharps!) into F (1 flat) would be good, too.  

Although I'm not a pianist or an organist, I've heard that some electronic keyboards and organs now have a built-in  "transposing wheel" that digitally accomplishes the same thing as Berlin's mechanical transposer gizmo.  SETH 

---

Indeed they do.  I used to play at a bar where the house keyboard had a digital transposing function.  The pianist could transpose into any desired key, easily.  The only drawback there was that when you went into the next song (which didn't need transposing), but the pianist would forget to turn off the transposing function.  It would sound pretty weird for the first few bars of the song.

sethb - Posted - 09/10/2024:  07:35:28

Our rhythm guitarist uses a capo on occasion, and it sometimes causes the same problem if he forgets to reset or remove it for the next tune.  

With so many things to go wrong, it's amazing that most tunes actually come out right! SETH

sethb - Posted - 09/10/2024:  11:07:51

As a sidebar, I wanted to note that I always indicate the concert key of each tune on our playlists.  That helps prevent key problems when the band members are assembling their music books, and it can also be a good reminder before we start a song.  But it's not infallible!  

Once in a great while, we've had huge key-related trainwrecks.  On one occasion, the guitarist accidentally loaded a clarinet lead sheet (which is one note higher than the concert key).  And one time I  mistakenly started a song that was in the key of F with a Bb7 turnaround chord instead of a C7.  I really meant to play a C7th, but I just didn't have my fingers down far enough on the fretboard, so I got a Bb7th instead.  As you can imagine, these tunes didn't work out too well!  SETH 

Texasbanjo - Posted - 09/10/2024:  11:25:25

@sethb

I was at a festival one year and the banjo picker was supposed to play the intro to one song and started off with the intro to another song, in another key! Luckily, the band members quickly caught on and the intro didn't sound too bad and the banjo picker transitioned from one key to another and started the song off right.

After that song was over, he admitted what had happened and the band and audience got a good laugh at his expense. No train wreck, just a weird intro.

johnstephen - Posted - 09/10/2024:  11:43:55

These are great stories and all too familiar to me. Anything that could possibly happen, will happen at some point. You just gotta hope that the player(s) involved will deal with it and avert an impending train wreck. The fun of live performance!

sethb - Posted - 09/10/2024:  12:28:13

There is one saving grace to all of these horror stories -- that the audience most likely has not heard the band or the tune before, and so doesn't know exactly what's going to happen. 

We've managed to avert some potential train wrecks and more than a few sideswipes by using this situation.  In most cases we've been able to save the song without too many, if any, people in the audience being aware of the problem. 

That's also why, as several musicians have told me in the past, "never apologize," because it might not even be necessary. And if we did have a true musical dumpster fire, I would just stop the tune, say something light and funny like "Hey, that's why they call it live music, anything can happen," and we'd start over again. Most audiences understand that nobody's perfect and they are usually willing to overlook a small problem.  SETH

FIDDLEJOHN - Posted - 09/10/2024:  15:12:46

quote:

---

Originally posted by Texasbanjo

@sethb



I was at a festival one year and the banjo picker was supposed to play the intro to one song and started off with the intro to another song, in another key! Luckily, the band members quickly caught on and the intro didn't sound too bad and the banjo picker transitioned from one key to another and started the song off right.



After that song was over, he admitted what had happened and the band and audience got a good laugh at his expense. No train wreck, just a weird intro.

---

In junior high I played sousaphone.  There was a piece that started with just one sousaphone alone playing a repeating boogie woogie bass line for a few measures.  That ended up being the piece our band teacher chose for band competition.  We made it all the way to state.  I told the teacher I was nervous, so he said, " Just watch my baton and keep the tempo."  So I watched the baton, and started off double speed.  At least I was in the right key!

Edited by - FIDDLEJOHN on 09/10/2024 15:20:56

sethb - Posted - 09/10/2024:  15:36:00

As much as I hate to spoil a good party, it seems that we've inadvertently shifted this topic from "band etiquette" (conduct of band members on the bandstand and otherwise) to "war stories" (when Murphy's Law was in full force).  And I'm pleading "just as guilty" here !

So in order to keep this thread to a manageable size and stay on the original topic, I'm going to suggest that someone should start a "War Stories" thread. I don't know why, but it's always interesting to read about someone else's troubles and say "Thank goodness that wasn't me!"  SETH   

Edited by - sethb on 09/10/2024 15:36:52

Texasbanjo - Posted - 09/11/2024:  04:16:33

Thread drift is not unusual. If someone wants to start a new thread about War Stories or I'm glad it wasn't me or whatever, please feel free to do so.

Otherwise, continue on as usual and let's see if this thread gets back on the subject.

wrench13 - Posted - 09/11/2024:  06:22:28

Bad behavior on stage?

How about a short little guy of a pedal steel player who got so hammered that he literally passed out, slumped over his steel in the middle of a set. My bass player picked him up by his belt and plopped him off to the side of the stage. A good player, when sober.

Or one time at a crappy bar gig, I had my Hells Angels support t-shirt (81) on, and some ass in the audience kept coming right up to my face and yelling at me how much HA members were pansies etc. I finally had enough and YOINKED him right in the eye with the end of my bow. Bad behavior on stage! Guilty.

Play enough on stage and just about anything will happen, more so when lubricated. Playing the wrong intro, wrong key, heck even total brain freeze, will happen. Embarrassment? First gig I played with my sons, in front of some 3500 people. I'm a commando type of guy ( I know, TMI, but germain ). Unbeknownst to me, I had a nice big hole in my crotch, and the family jewels had been kinda hangin' out, making a showing. Will always wonder what the applause was really for.

Too on topic?

sethb - Posted - 09/11/2024:  09:39:59

I know plenty of musos who like (or need) a little "Liquid Courage" before they hit the stage.  I suppose that's relatively OK and there are certainly plenty of worse options.  But I'm not sure it's a good idea on a long-term basis and it can lead to other problems, as the above post indicates.  Ditto for things like Beta Blockers, which don't make you play any better, they just eliminate most of the "stage fright" symptoms like shaky hands/feet, dry mouth, nerves, etc.  

As for me, I have enough trouble playing all the right chords when I'm sober, so I reserve the beers for after the show!  I've also been told that although PUI (Playing Under the Influence) may make you think you're playing better, usually the reverse is true.  I've also noticed that many vocalists who imbibe before or during a gig tend to sing flat.   

I'm not sure the "cure" for stage fright is just to keep on doing gigs.  But I will agree that after years of gigging, it's very rare that I encounter stage fright anymore.  One of the best remedies I found is to remember that your performance is not some sort of test and you're not being graded on it (unless God Forbid it's an audition!).   Rather, you're there to share your special gift of making music with the audience, which is anxious to hear it and appreciative of it.  SETH 

Edited by - sethb on 09/11/2024 09:53:33

heavy5 - Posted - 09/11/2024:  10:01:22

Charlie Waller was known for occasionally putting away a bit of vodka just before mike time & Emerson grinding out a cigarette under his shoe just before the 1st tune .   I saw them do both  



But we are getting a bit off topic here .

sethb - Posted - 09/13/2024:  11:55:37

I may have mentioned this somewhere else before, but I think it's worth repeating in this thread about “band etiquette.”

There's an excellent book called “Gig For Life” (2023).  It’s written by Georges Elchakieh and is available from Amazon ($30 hardcover, $20 paperback and $10 e-book). It covers everything from forming a band to rehearsal techniques, making up set lists that work, publicity and getting gigs, as well as much discussion of performance  "do's and don'ts."  The author is a drummer who’s 'been there, done that', and he speaks with clarity and authority.

Some of what he says may not apply to you or your band.  But the one thing that really struck me was the author’s insistence on “respecting the stage.”  We don’t often consider that getting on a stage is really a special privilege.  Furthermore, it’s a privilege that’s earned and gained only with hundreds, if not thousands of hours spent in learning an instrument, and then practicing and rehearsing for many more hours.  A stage is no place to fool around.  If you’re unprepared musically, mentally or physically, the audience will know it immediately. This doesn’t mean that every performance must be perfect, which is impossible. But it does mean you need to treat the stage with respect, given the amount of time and effort it’s taken you to get there.

I think a lot of band etiquette problems could be solved -- or wouldn’t happen in the first place -- if more people took that attitude.  SETH

Edited by - sethb on 09/13/2024 12:01:00

BentHammers - Posted - 09/20/2024:  13:48:01

Wow, I think I'm okay staying in the proverbial closet.
I've tried a few " bands" and they were total mayhem. Everyone played at their own timing, volume, etc. Terrible.
So, how and where to start playing with others? Backing tracks perhaps?

Texasbanjo - Posted - 09/20/2024:  15:25:11

quote:

---

Originally posted by BentHammers

Wow, I think I'm okay staying in the proverbial closet.

I've tried a few " bands" and they were total mayhem. Everyone played at their own timing, volume, etc. Terrible.

So, how and where to start playing with others? Backing tracks perhaps?

---

See if you can find a guitar picker who wants to jam with someone other than another guitar.  That may lead you to a mandolin picker who wants to join and perhaps a fiddler or a dobro player.  Start slow, get familiar with each other's picking style and get acquainted with timing, tone and techniques of playing with others.  That when it really becomes fun:  when everyone is in tune and playing together in harmony.

sethb - Posted - 09/21/2024:  01:46:51

quote:

---

Originally posted by BentHammers

I've tried a few " bands" and they were total mayhem. Everyone played at their own timing, volume, etc. Terrible. 

---

In a real band, everyone is supposed to LISTEN to each other so they can play TOGETHER.  The groups you were playing in probably weren't doing that.  

Sounds like you just need to keep looking until you find a better situation.  SETH 

Edited by - sethb on 09/21/2024 01:47:34

sethb - Posted - 09/21/2024:  09:51:25

I thought we had really covered it all in this very long thread, but I do have one more thing to add.

Last night we played a 50’s & 60’s dance as a trio, and we had a playlist of 30 songs for the 2-hour gig. Although I had pre-arranged the song order, it turned out that sometimes people wanted another fast number or maybe another slower tune instead. So we ended up jumping around that playlist a bit in order to accommodate the crowd. 

But there was often a lot of “dead air” between tunes while we waited for the other guitarist to get his music ready.  Eventually I decided to start the tunes whether the other guy was ready or not.  I just let him catch up when he was finally ready to play, because we were losing dancers on the dance floor during the waits, and we were also wasting time as a result.

During the break, I asked him why he was having so much trouble bringing up the numbers I was calling. He said he had arranged his music book to match the playlist, but he didn’t bring the playlist itself, because he figured he didn’t need it – everything was in order, right? 

So PLEASE don’t make his mistake, and ALWAYS carry a copy of the playlist to the gig!  If the leader needs to make a change in the song order for some reason, you’ll know exactly where to locate the tune and do it quickly. Then you won’t hold up the band or make it look like Amateur Night!  SETH

Edited by - sethb on 09/21/2024 09:56:59

Compass56 - Posted - 09/22/2024:  09:55:47

This morning, I went back and reread all of the responses to this topic this morning. It was certainly an interesting read. The early replies were good examples of bad band member etiquette, but as the thread progressed many of the posts were about things musicians do that fall outside of boundaries of etiquette.

Either way, it was quite an enlightening read. I had no idea there was so much drama and so many problems on gigs. My gigs are very mundane (in terms of problems, not music) by comparison.

This past Thursday’s gig is a good example of what I’m saying. There was a big award being given out at the Museum, and the promoter called me about putting a band together. A couple of the guys with whom I play regularly were available, but bass and drums would have to be people with whom I’ve played rarely or never. I put the group together—a group that will probably never play together again—and we were ready to go. It was great! Everybody in the band was listening like crazy, and the whole thing was smooth. All of the intros and ending worked fine even though the band had never played together before. There were no arrangements or reading, but the sound was very smooth. There were about 400 people there, and everyone seemed to have a good time. When it was over, we got paid, put our stuff away, and left.

I love playing gigs so much. I truly feel like I’m the luckiest person in the world. I get to play often with incredible players and entertain interesting people who like music. I hope I get to play until regularly my last day of life.

wrench13 - Posted - 09/22/2024:  10:17:30

Thats when you need schtick, stage patter, BS. what ever. I cannot remember ever having band mates having to need sheet music to play a gig.

sethb - Posted - 09/22/2024:  11:50:05

I guess it depends on what kind of music you're playing, how good your memory is, how complicated the music is, and how big or small your ego is!  

I know that lots of rock musicians wouldn't be caught dead with a music stand, and probably ditto for the country music crowd.  On the other hand, plenty of jazz musicians keep a set of Real Books under their chairs, if not on their stands.  And the big band guys have no problem having their charts in front of them.  

I'm pretty familiar with most of the tunes we play, but I do like to have the music in front of me, just in case.  SETH

Compass56 - Posted - 09/22/2024:  12:12:17

There are some many different ways to do a gig. I have had leaders who would fine players if they read from a fake book, but I’ve had others who didn’t mind fake books. With fancy arrangements (especially in a big band context) reading is essential. I do whatever the leader tells me to do, but if I’m the leader the band don’t use music stands or iPads or fakebooks or any of that stuff.