nyartist - Posted - 02/05/2024:  17:40:33

I just got delivery of an Enoch Tradesman 12" and am trying to cut down a bit on the sharpness. I've stuffed the back, loosened the head a bit, put on a Moon bridge but am considering trying a Fiberskyn. I've read old forum posts on the site and one them was hilarious describing the sound as '4 flat tires on a muddy road'.. Not very appealing. Other than that does anyone have any experience with this banjo and a Fiberskyn? Any other thoughts on it?

RDP - Posted - 02/05/2024:  18:36:55

It definitely cuts back on the sharpness of the tones. I like the way they look new. But if playing clawhammer style they start to look frazzled looking a a few months of playing. I changed my one fiber skin head I had out to an elite after a while.

RDP - Posted - 02/05/2024:  18:39:46

Try a thicker bridge too or make ur own bridge that’s thick with no holes.

Helix - Posted - 02/06/2024:  03:24:37

I've read old forum posts on the site and one them was hilarious describing the sound as '4 flat tires on a muddy road'.. 

That was me, thanks for getting the joke, some didn't. The original quote is from ZZ TOP

I would suggest staying with the 12" Renassaince head meaning the Elite, but a 12" skin head will do nicely if you have the patience. 

Edited by - Helix on 02/06/2024 03:25:33

 

nyartist - Posted - 02/06/2024:  03:29:07

Hi Larry

I'm going to give the Fiberskyn a try and am expecting to be disappointed. Gotta try and then will probably put the ren head .back on and experiment with something else

AndrewD - Posted - 02/06/2024:  04:11:18

If you've just had delivery then it's probably got new strings. Play it a bit before you make a decision. When I was gigging regularly (but infrequently) I restrung my banjo at least a week before the gig.
My personal opinion is that fiberskyns are banjo killers. Most of my banjos, including my main player, have good quality calfskin heads.

dbrooks - Posted - 02/06/2024:  04:18:03

Phil, have you tried loosening the head tension a bit? Nylgut strings would give it a softer voice as well. Either change would be less work and give quicker results than changing the head. You know the sound you want. It's in the banjo somewhere and you'll find it.

David

nyartist - Posted - 02/06/2024:  04:33:32

Hi David - I did try and loosen the head some. I even thought about picking up a used drum dialer to see if that will help.
Funny that I got the Enoch so I could have that warmer more mellow tone of a 12" banjo. As it turns out the 11" Zach Hoyt I have gives me more of that sound. I'll try the Fiberskyn and then switch back to the ren head if I need to. I've changed heads before but I found a luthier just a couple of blocks from me and I'll let him do it.

banjered - Posted - 02/06/2024:  07:57:03

Try the heavier Sampson bridges available at Elderly, different stuffings including the new Banjo Bolster which I haven't yet tried.

P.S. I hope the Banjo Bolster folks will come up with a better way of ordering than sending my credit card number over the internet.If hackers can hack the Pentagon, NOTHING is secure over the internet. banjered

nyartist - Posted - 02/06/2024:  08:13:54

I'll check that out as soon as I get home. Thanks for your ideas

nyartist - Posted - 02/06/2024:  08:54:21

Tom - I went to Elderly and they have 4 bridges listed but which one is the heavier one?

Helix - Posted - 02/06/2024:  09:41:48

There is a lot of archive information here about bridge weight and tonal response

Dan Gellert - Posted - 02/06/2024:  10:18:10

You can get a good idea what a Fiberskyn will sound like, without going through the bother of changing the head. Just cover about half the surface of that Ren head with masking tape. Overkill, IMO

Just a SMALL patch or two of tape, or something else to add a bit of weight and/or damping, can do what you want in a much more subtle and adjustable fashion.

GrahamHawker - Posted - 02/06/2024:  10:54:35

Fiberskyn can be disappointing but taking to sandpaper to the head and thinning it down a bit helps.

nyartist - Posted - 02/06/2024:  11:08:56

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dan Gellert

You can get a good idea what a Fiberskyn will sound like, without going through the bother of changing the head. Just cover about half the surface of that Ren head with masking tape. Overkill, IMO



Just a SMALL patch or two of tape, or something else to add a bit of weight and/or damping, can do what you want in a much more subtle and adjustable fashion.

---

I tried some duct tape under the head below the bridge. that was suggested but didn't make much of a difference.

Banner Blue - Posted - 02/06/2024:  12:02:13

You can simulate a heavier bridge by putting some clay on the top or sides.

Dan Gellert - Posted - 02/06/2024:  12:36:29

quote:

---

Originally posted by nyartist

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dan Gellert

You can get a good idea what a Fiberskyn will sound like, without going through the bother of changing the head. Just cover about half the surface of that Ren head with masking tape. Overkill, IMO



Just a SMALL patch or two of tape, or something else to add a bit of weight and/or damping, can do what you want in a much more subtle and adjustable fashion.

---

I tried some duct tape under the head below the bridge. that was suggested but didn't make much of a difference.

---

Move the patch around and see what happens.  Finding the right spot is the trick. If you know about fiddles, it's a bit like setting the sound post.  Right under the bridge is not a place that's ever worked for me.   If you can get one, try using an EKG electrode patch. The gel stuff on there seems to have an extra little damping effect.  I think you can still get "Moon Gels" (which are what gave me the idea), made for drums-- I tried those years back, and they sounded good, but wouldn't stay on. Maybe they make them stickier now...?

GMB - Posted - 02/06/2024:  12:50:28

I have a banjo bolster on my walnut Tradesman with a Ren head and medium steel strings on a heavy moon bridge. Nice mellow plunk with minimal overtones.

nyartist - Posted - 02/06/2024:  13:41:12

Hi Jerry

that's most interesting. I did go to the bolster site and listened to what it would sound like with and without the bolster and didn't notice and difference. I'm gonna check that again because I also have a walnut Tradesman with a moon bridge!

nyartist - Posted - 02/06/2024:  14:21:29

I went back to their site and listened more carefully and did notice a difference. So I ordered one myself.
Probably wouldn't have except for the fact that you have the same banjo.

GMB - Posted - 02/06/2024:  14:58:04

I have my bolster situated on the 5th string side of the pot between the neck and tailpiece. I primarily play where the neck joins the pot. Plunky but clear. Mostly play in double C. Of course this is all subjective, but I no longer stuff the pot and am well pleased with the sound.

RO75 - Posted - 02/06/2024:  15:56:44

If you're looking for a more mellow sound and using steel string you might want to try nylon strings. You could also tune down.

Emiel - Posted - 02/07/2024:  08:49:05

The Fiberskyn head must be tight in order to sound good.

nyartist - Posted - 02/07/2024:  08:54:01

OK.. I'll be aware of that. First I'm gonna try the bolster. then the Fiberskyn

Leslie R - Posted - 02/07/2024:  10:38:12

I’ve tried fiberskin heads in 11,12, and 14 inch banjos. I didn’t ever get what I would call good results from them.

Bart Veerman - Posted - 02/07/2024:  20:40:41

Logically speaking, you've done every thing to totally neuter that banjo. I peeked at your BHO homepage and I'm guessing, given your age, that probably there are specific hearing issues involved. It's quite common for "seasoned" ears to no longer enjoy the high pitched sounds that come natural to banjos. At this point it's hugely unlikely that an FS head, or thicker bridges, will have any further effect whatsoever on the banjo's brightness.

Instead, try small pieces of painter's green/blue, or scotch, tape on each string near the bridge at the neck-side. You can adjust the size of the pieces of tape to your hearing's requirements.

Another possibility is to tackle solution from the other end: your hearing itself. Stuff cotton swabs in your ears, the size of them can also easily be tweaked to keep your ears happy. If that works out then consider custom musicians earplugs.

Good luck and do eep us up to date how things are working out for you.

nyartist - Posted - 02/08/2024:  03:58:58

yup, getting older by the day. I'm giving myself some time to get to know the banjo before I make any changes. I just had it shipped to me the end of last week so I do need more time. I might try the FS head just to satisfy my curiosity - and I like to tinker with stuff. Kind of a maintenance man-handyman attitude.

Banjo Rich - Posted - 02/08/2024:  04:16:03

The FS definitely deadens the sound.

I had one for a while on my alternative Goodtime and ended up swapping it out for a Renaissance head. I liked the Fiberskyn but not consistently enough to have it on there all the time. It's a very distinctive sound, IMO.

nyartist - Posted - 02/08/2024:  04:31:57

I'll try it and hope to like the sound of 4 flat tires on a muddy road.

writerrad - Posted - 02/08/2024:  13:07:51

I use the Bolster on my tradesman, which I have a balch  goatskin on.   It is more convenient than other informal stuffing material, but does not quiete the banjo down too much and is quite easy to use.   

I have owned a 12 inch tradesman since November 2007, and after a year or so replaced the original remo like head with a calfskin which I had on it for 10 years or so before going to the Balch.   

I think it is question of taste.   I think these forums tend to get people advocating one or another definitive solution, when one really needs to think of each player going for the specific sound she or he wants out each banjo, and several banjos (I have 7 right now) is the solution.    I like this banjo to have a bright sound and have fairly light strings on it though I originally had light-medium gauge strings.   

You can often try to get too much too general out of one banjo when the solution is to have several banjos with different properties set up differently.

What kind of music do you play on it.  I bought this to be my main frailling and clawhammer instrument, though I find the tradesman pretty good for two fnger picking.

Thanks

writerrad - Posted - 02/08/2024:  13:23:24

I have used the Bolster on 3 different banjos, my 1925 Tubaphone, My Gold Tone WL-250 and my Tradesman.   I do not think it "quiets" the tone down significantly or would I desire that on any banjo.   I just frailed by Tradesman without the Bolster and then reinstalled the Bolster and what the Bolster does is is get a bit of the rattle and other noises that come from the construction of the banjo out of the banjo and give you a clearer tone.

You can get the wrong idea that a Tradesman is a quiet banjo or soft-tone banjo, but it is not designed to be such at all and is not.   I goes back to the earlier architecture that the non-tone ring banjos had, producing a loud and bright tone that fits in with contemporary old time music, and with a modicum of depth, at an affordable price.

Just picked it up and frailed for a while.  it is a  very bright banjo.   

There are sound damping devices that you can get for it I guess.   Keeping the head less tight would also give you less brightness or lousdness, but to mee this is all underminding what the banjo was designed to do and be.   Nylon or Nylgut strings might give you a quieter tone.   

Bottom line is the tradesman isnt designed to be a quiet banjo.  You will get a quiet or soft tone from a banjo that is.

nyartist - Posted - 02/08/2024:  13:39:28

hey Tony

thanks for your message.. I stopped off at the luthier near me and he said: $200 to change the head. and if I didn't like it another $200 to change it back.. No way. I did change the bridge which seemed to make some difference. But it really comes down to me just getting to know this banjo and appreciating it for the way it sounds, which is pretty damn good! I do have a Zach Hoyt 11" that gives me a different sound. But my thing is singing with simple playing. and you're right - it is a bright banjo. What's that old saying? change what you can and accept what you can't. I'm in the accepting stage right now.

Helix - Posted - 02/08/2024:  13:59:27

Tinkering needs no apology. I tinkered my way into a trademark.

Changing a head is easy, the notch at the heel of the neck allows this without removing the neck.   

What is his shop hour?  Mine is $40, but it depends on how you treat me.  Yuck it up,

Reinstalling the hooks involves keeping an eye of how level the tension hoop is and you tighten down evenly across from each other.

That's why I mentioned how fast the Fiberskyn tightens up, at least for me. The Renn necks have more stretch in them, they sound better a week later.

Play. The four flat tires will keep you in the ruts.  You may have to climb some of the hills in reverse, but you still make it safe back home.  

Keep us informed. 

Edited by - Helix on 02/08/2024 14:05:49

Even the ant casts a shadow

 

bigleaf - Posted - 02/08/2024:  14:58:39

Hi, Phil



I have two Enoch Tradesmans– a 12” and an 11” A-scale I had him make for me. I’ve had Fiberskyns on both and preferred them to the Renaissances. I’ve also found that that Banjo Bolster is perfect for the Tradesman. It makes it the Tradesmansiest sounding Tradesman you’ve ever heard. I’ll post pictures of the Velcro attachment I worked out for keeping it off the head.



A Fiberskyn will delaminate and fuzz up after a couple of years, according to where your fingers hit it. In the past couple of years, though, I went ahead and got a Stearns cowhide head from John Balch. It’s what I’ll stay with. It sounds great.

Bolster 3

Bolster 2

Bolster 1

 

nyartist - Posted - 02/08/2024:  15:08:45

looks great! So the idea is that you have to keep the bolster OFF of the head?

shibac - Posted - 02/08/2024:  16:14:34

Lots of Fiberskyn haters here. I have them on myTubaphone and Whyte Laydie (both 11") and like them. The WL came with a Renaissance head, and I did not like its shrillness. Also, rather than a big towel inside, I use a small block of foam rubber about 1"x1"x2" under the fretboard end of the dowel stick. Works for me, but YMMV.

nyartist - Posted - 02/08/2024:  16:42:25

Conrad - so you used the FS heads OR the foam?

Tim Jumper - Posted - 02/08/2024:  17:03:31

On my banjos my preferences are 1) animal skin and 2) Fiberskyn.
Only by experimentation with different heads and tinkering with the many variables involved in set-up -- you've heard them all discussed on BHO -- will you discover the sound that suits your ears.

bart_brush - Posted - 02/08/2024:  17:30:27

About Fiberskyn:

Remo Belli was a pioneer in the invention of plastic drum heads, beginning with his experiments after WW2 and his founding of the REMO factory in California, 1957.

About 25 years ago, Dr. Will Schmid created the World Music Drumming curriculum for use in schools and beyond. Naturally, he went to REMO to design and produce a range of rugged, tunable African style drums with durable plastic heads.

There are thousand of these drum ensembles in music classrooms around the country. See YouTube and Wikipedia for more info and drumming demos from 3rd graders to adults.

REMO Fiberskyn heads that imitated the texture of natural skins were first made for these drums in 10, 12, and 14" diameters, and then offered for banjo use, I believe.

bigleaf - Posted - 02/08/2024:  18:27:03

quote:

---

Originally posted by nyartist

looks great! So the idea is that you have to keep the bolster OFF of the head?

---

Yes, precisely. I don't know what materials are used inside the bolster, but they tell you to keep it off the head- they just don't supply any mechanism to attach it to your banjo. It seems to absorb the weird overtones inn the pot and leave the nice banjo sounds. I wouldn't have believed it myself, had I not heard the difference on other folks' banjos. 

 

I just used a five-pak of Velcro cable ties to mount them. There's a better explanation in a thread about the banjo bolster on BHO, but you can see it in the pictures. 

nyartist - Posted - 02/08/2024:  18:35:40

are those 8" velcro ties you're using? I see those on Amazon

Oldman3527 - Posted - 02/08/2024:  21:09:21

I've had that same banjo for around 11 months now and am really impressed with it. From experimentation, I've found it likes phosphor bronze medium strings quite well. I also changed the bridge to a Balsum Banjo bridge. They're walnut with a persimmon cap - not ebony so it's not quite as bright. Pretty well satisfied. I recently picked up a Banjo Bolster but the jury is still out.

Helix - Posted - 02/09/2024:  02:43:41

Imitating the texture of skins is one thing, getting the right sound is another.

I think the Bolster could use different lengths, right now it's only one length of half the circumference of a 9.5" or 10.5" circle.
Since 99% of banjos these days use 11" rims, the Bolster doesn't go beyond "One size fits all.
But there's no way to dial it in or out

The use of Velcro strips is NOGGIN, nice work. I use those to coil sound cables



I found the Ebony wedge to be limited, so I made a new one out of Purple Heart.

Another alternative is an internally adjustable rim rod from brass not wood.
I found drum shell to be lacking in tonal production

 

Bart Veerman - Posted - 02/09/2024:  06:03:49

quote:

---

Originally posted by bart_brush

About Fiberskyn:



REMO Fiberskyn heads that imitated the texture of natural skins

---

Natural skins with as many veins as them FS heads would be discarded, their looks would make them unacceptable.

bigleaf - Posted - 02/09/2024:  06:15:26

quote:

---

Originally posted by nyartist

are those 8" velcro ties you're using? I see those on Amazon

---

Yup

 

bart_brush - Posted - 02/09/2024:  08:26:39

Helix and Bart V.--

My point is that Fiberskyn heads were designed for another use and another market (teaching African and world drumming in an educational setting), then offered without refinement for the different application of banjo heads, thus the veining and dull sound.

Such veining would not be rejected by traditional African drum makers. Their process (simplified) is to carve the drum out of a log using ax and adz; lash on a raw hide with hair side up; let dry resulting in contraction and tension; shave off hair with razor.

There are several videos of traditional drum construction online. There are also several African immigrants here in NY state making drums. And alas, one died of anthrax several years ago, which he contracted from a hide shipped from Africa.

I

banjered - Posted - 02/09/2024:  10:14:26

In the time before Covid and these days microwave assault I used to attend festivals and always seek out the best sounding banjo. The last time it was a tubaphone banjo with a FS head. I was so surprised because my experience with FS was that dudifized the sound. My guess is that with Tubbies and Whyte Laydies the FS may be closer to sound nirvana that most of us want. I've had all the heads mentioned on my Tradesman and right for now I prefer the Ren head, a cross between bright and plunky, and then use all the other stuff/bridge tricks to steer toward my latest preference.

Something I noticed on Zepps web posting back when, that as ears age, they seem to want/prefer a brighter sound. Is that because older ears cannot appreciate/hear deeper, mellower sounds? The ideal banjo sound is in the same pursuit category as the better mousetrap or mattress. To be continued....indefinitely. banjered

bart_brush - Posted - 02/09/2024:  10:42:21

Regarding older ears and the brighter sound that we prefer as we age--
Among hearing specialists and industrial hygienists, It is well known that the higher pitches are the first to go under the stress of high sound volume, because those nerve endings in the inner ear are smaller and more fragile. I'm guessing those small nerve endings would also be the first to go with aging in general.

There are other causes of hearing impairment too. Check out the YouTube video "Feeling Sound with Evelyn Glennie" and others. She is a Scottish percussionist with a serious hearing impairment (from birth?--I forget) who plays primarily marimba--with bare feet.

OldPappy - Posted - 02/13/2024:  11:44:21

When there was a Chattanooga Folk School the banjo teacher would often ask be to see what I could do to help make a student's banjo play and sound better AKA a "setup".

Many of those banjos were low end Asian import entry level banjos, and just needed a better setup.

Some came to me with those Fyber Skin heads and I always replaced those things, usually with an Amer Elite (rebranded Remo Renaissance head). The students were always pleased with the better tone and response when they got their banjo back.

I like the FS heads, just not on a banjo. Until I ran out of them I used to hang them on my berry bushes and they did a good job keeping the deer away.

That said, I don't know how you could possibly get a stuffed drum shell banjo, with no tone ring, a loosened head, and heavy bridge to sound any duller short of soaking it in a barrel of water for a few days (Don't do that).