DWFII - Posted - 08/11/2022:  11:22:00

Is there such a thing as old time three finger picking? Anyone who is a leading advocate/teacher or any mp3's I should/can listen to?

Mostly curious but the dearth of tabs dedicated to two finger picking (esp index lead) is kind of discouraging.

thisoldman - Posted - 08/11/2022:  11:48:49

I did a search of old threads and this came up as one of the suggestions.

jenorma1 - Posted - 08/11/2022:  12:10:52

Beat me to it - Don Borchelt is a true master 3-finger old time picker (and great guy).

DWFII - Posted - 08/11/2022:  13:09:04

I don't suppose there's any instructional books on the order of Sebastian Schroeder's 2 Finger Banjo books or websites with half a dozen plus introductory lessons on how to do three finger? And/or some simple tabs with fingering indicators? (I, M,T)



Or is it just Scrugg's style without the finger picks?



I am no master of any style but I have been working on my two finger, index lead, for at least six / seven months now and I feel that I am 'comfortable' with 2F and maybe could add that middle finger?



To be honest, I shied away from Bluegrass style picking at first because it looked terribly tense for the right hand. The material I latched onto in the beginning was fairly 'rigid' about the angle of the hand and position of the fingers, etc.. Scared me off, I suppose.



But now I have an anchor, at least, for my 2F and it doesn't feel tense at all. So...



Again, mostly curious.

Edited by - DWFII on 08/11/2022 13:21:21

Nic Pennsylvania - Posted - 08/11/2022:  15:50:29

There is a lot of Old-Time three finger out there. I'd point to Dock Boggs, first and foremost. Others say Charlie Poole. I'd say Poole was more influenced by classic banjo players, but that's an old argument.



Art Rosenbaum's "Mountain Banjo" has some examples, as do Mike Seeger's instructional videos.

Edited by - Nic Pennsylvania on 08/11/2022 15:51:08

Nic Pennsylvania - Posted - 08/11/2022:  15:55:55

Also, I'll second Don Borchelt being a great guy. There are many supportive people in the banjo community, buy few so much as Don. I'll warn that many of his arrangements are tricky, tricky. Why not ask him to recommend a couple that are good starters?

DWFII - Posted - 08/11/2022:  16:40:43

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nic Pennsylvania

Also, I'll second Don Borchelt being a great guy. There are many supportive people in the banjo community, buy few so much as Don. I'll warn that many of his arrangements are tricky, tricky. Why not ask him to recommend a couple that are good starters?

---

I've looked at his website. He looks like a friendly guy but you're right the tabs are tricky and dern near incomprehensible to me. There is no T, I, M under the tab notation so despite the fac that i understand the the middle finger is often playing only the first string, even in the simple measures I still am not sure which finger is playing which strings.

What i would really like is a comprehensive course that starts out simple and lays out daily exercises and slowly progresses a beginner to simple tabs of somewhat melodic arrangements (so i can recognize what I'm playing and how it should sound)..

Am I asking for something that doesn't exist? Sincere question...

Bill Rogers - Posted - 08/11/2022:  17:00:20

Pete Peterson (Orpheus Supertones) and Joseph DeCosimo (Blue Ridge Broadcasters for one) are excellent old-time fingerpickers, though their styles differ. Joseph also plays great clawhammwe.

RG - Posted - 08/11/2022:  17:44:24

Selected Uncle Dave Macon, Kirk McGee, George Pegram, Lewis "Big Sweet" Hairston, Wade Ward (when he played with Charlie Higgins), Gus Cannon, Junie Scruggs, Snuffy Jenkins, just to name a few...

As far as tabs for two finger index lead, any clawhammer tab will do, clawhammer is an index lead style, just reverse from downstroke to upstroke...

jack_beuthin - Posted - 08/11/2022:  20:01:09

At this point in the thread, the answer should be obvious that 3F picking is part of old time banjo music. The issue for a beginner is that there is no single, or even just a few, 3F styles. Preceding replies mention several excellent players, and no two of them play quite the same sort of 3F banjo. There is no "Earl" in old time 3F banjo picking.

The closest recommendation I can make for an instruction book is Wayne Erbsen's "Starting Bluegrass Banjo from Scratch" which is still in print. Yes, the title says "Bluegrass" but much of what he presents lays the foundation for playing in more of an old time style. It is comprehensible and accessible to the complete beginner. At very least, it will give you some ideas for jumping into 3F and finding your way.

janolov - Posted - 08/11/2022:  22:47:41

Josh Turknett also has instruction in finger style: fingerstylebanjo.com/. 

hobogal - Posted - 08/12/2022:  03:28:31

Check out the following current bands for examples of fiddle backup: The Ozark Highballers, Betse and Clarke, Rocky Creek Ramblers, Steam Machine...

There isn't a 'how to' book but any beginner bluegrass book will teach you basic roll patterns for three fingerstyle.  The in/out (or 'box roll') is your basic bum-ditty.  You might find Janet Davis 'Splitting the Licks' helpful - she gives a basic version (which will sound 'old-time' as it is stripped back without the distinctive bluegrass licks).

Note, Charlie Poole, Pete Peterson, Clarke Buehling use a more 'classic-style' chordal banjo approach rather than the continuous rolling backup more common in bluegrass. I did a video on Charlie Poole style a while ago (apologies for the poor audio - my voice is a whisper!):youtube.com/watch?v=mAWzpbvbaEw&t=141s

Some good videos on Dock Boggs (singing with banjo) approach: youtube.com/watch?v=aG3L1oC7DgY&t=195s

JSB88 - Posted - 08/12/2022:  05:06:37

If the link works, this is the excellent Chris Berry giving a lesson on Doc Boggs Danville Girls, in Boggs' 3 finger style. No tab but his lessons allow you to watch and listen. I simply cannot play 3f of any description but I have used Mr Berry's videos to learn 2f songs and have found them excellent, especially when starting out. I did try this one but it just confirmed my inability, however I did for a while pick out a 2f version based in it.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=H3KjogQxFs0

Don Borchelt - Posted - 08/12/2022:  05:34:17

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nic Pennsylvania

Also, I'll second Don Borchelt being a great guy. There are many supportive people in the banjo community, buy few so much as Don. I'll warn that many of his arrangements are tricky, tricky. Why not ask him to recommend a couple that are good starters?

---

I want to thank Nic, Jeff, and "thisoldguy" for mentioning me, but Nic is dead right, most of my arrangements are tricky, tricky.  And as DWFII has pointed out, I don't put down the right hand fingerings, unless it seems to me that the choice of fingering is not obvious.  So in general my tabs are not suited for beginners, and if someone needs the right hand transcribed, they are probably not ready to try them.  There are two tabs on my site that are labeled as easier versions of the tunes, Angeline the Baker in D tuning (aDF#AD), and Liza Jane in G tuning (gDGBD).

I did remember that someone had put out a book of Dock Boggs tabs some years ago, so I googled for it, and low and behold, a current BHO ad popped up. The book is out of print, but the author, Blake Bamford (Boxcar) is offering it in PDF format for only $5. Boggs' playing is not tricky, once you get used to his tunings.  Here is the link.  Gotta move fast though, the ad expires right after lunch today!

- Don B.



banjohangout.org/classifieds/d...cid=15348

thisoldman - Posted - 08/12/2022:  06:19:09

RE: fingering for picking hand. I did a quick search under the "learn" section here and used "Doc Boggs" as the search term. Came up with 7 tabs written by the same person. The two I looked at seemed beginner friendly to me. Just looking at them, I would start by choosing to pick the 5th and 4th strings with my thumb, the 1st with middle, and 2nd with index. The way the picking patterns lay out on the 2 examples I looked at, I'd pick the 3rd string with my thumb most, if not all, of the time. If not my thumb on the 3rd, then index depending on the note(s) before and after.

zac987 - Posted - 08/12/2022:  10:40:11

Hey D.W.!



I play old time 3-finger. I started by learning index and thumb lead 2-finger picking, and gradually incorporated more rolls into my playing. These rolls often bridge the gap in notes and phrases that 2-finger can often leave. The most common ones I use are the forward roll, box roll, and forward-reverse roll.



You can find some recordings of my playing here (you don't have to join instagram to watch them): instagram.com/zacpelo/



Here are some of my all-time favorite old time 3-finger players:



Jason Romero - I think Jason typifies this style for me. The way he separates the notes and gives everything a dynamic quality is really spectacular.

youtube.com/watch?v=H8jIRnWKruA

youtube.com/watch?v=QcbUYEt1MWQ

youtube.com/watch?v=ZjyAEPxCYZQ



Nick Hornbuckle - Nick is actually a 2-finger banjo player, but his arrangements lay out perfectly for 3-finger, and his tabs are actually laid out with the expectation that you'll be picking with three fingers.

youtube.com/watch?v=YQcXVrgEutI

youtube.com/watch?v=ja8HX_nZd4I

youtube.com/watch?v=ilnWU4uBsbI



Don Borchelt - Don of course is one of the best living banjo players, and is an incredible 3-finger picker. As mentioned before, his arrangements are tricky and I wouldn't recommend starting with them. However, highly recommend listening and eventually taking a swing at one. I included some of his more "straightforward" arrangements below. :)

youtube.com/watch?v=FKGwVAs6M0k

youtube.com/watch?v=rOxUiHgNy5A

youtube.com/watch?v=BJN5Ej_vfso



Dock Boggs - Dock typically played to accompany his voice, but I chose a few tracks here that show a little more of the melody.

youtube.com/watch?v=lECo9Va72oU

youtube.com/watch?v=avHv2e8j_dU

youtube.com/watch?v=DhJjlW5UjD4



Here are some random clips to get you inspired:

Adam Hurt (playing 3 finger) - youtube.com/watch?v=CsmBoIhRDac

Aaron Jonah Lewis explaining Pete Seeger's 3-finger take on "Cindy" - youtube.com/watch?v=6box7Unm4yA

Frank Fairfield (not sure if he's playing 2-finger or 3-finger here, but there are some rolls and arpeggios in here that make me think it's 3-finger. Also a clawhammer bit at the end) - youtube.com/watch?v=JgEWwCdr0Ac

Josh Turknett has been posting some great stuff on his channel "Fingerstyle Banjo," highly recommend - youtube.com/watch?v=sVsp8FUJm8g 

Edited by - zac987 on 08/12/2022 10:49:59

DWFII - Posted - 08/12/2022:  11:09:56

quote:

---

Originally posted by zac987

Hey D.W.!



I play old time 3-finger. I started by learning index and thumb lead 2-finger picking, and gradually incorporated more rolls into my playing. These rolls often bridge the gap in notes and phrases that 2-finger can often leave. The most common ones I use are the forward roll, box roll, and forward-reverse roll.



You can find some recordings of my playing here (you don't have to join instagram to watch them): instagram.com/zacpelo/

Zac,

That's a lot! Thank you.

Texasbanjo posted a link today: hangoutstorage.com/banjohangou...02011.pdf that had some rolls to practice.

I started with clawhammer as, I suspect  a lot of newbies do. But for me, without an anchor it felt a little to uncontrollable. So i started with Sebastian Schroeder's 2F books. I also did about four of Josh Turknett's online 2F lessons.

I haven't been playing long. I can't even get through Schoeder's Cripple Creek arrangement... not so it's recognizable, at any rate. But I can play Bile then Cabbage in both 4/4 and 3/4 time pretty good.

I practice daily. And while I know that repetition and doing exercises is probably the best foundation, I want a little variation that is both challenging and appropriate for where I'm at.

None of that is an excuse for abandoning 2F but there isn't a lot out there in terms of 2F tabs much ;ess study guides.  And despite what people tell me (and i understand and am not disagreeing) I can't readily translate a CH song with brushes into picking on the fly. It just feels kind of random to me so i don't have anything by which to gauge my progress.

Anyway, I have been feeling kind of restless and thinking that maybe I should venture into Schroeder's 2FTL book (that was always my intent) but I feel it might be a little too soon.

And I keep thinking there's a lot of three finger material out there and I have an extra finger that seems to be loafing. lol

Anyway. thanks again. I'll look over this stuff over the next week or so. i appreciate it.

janolov - Posted - 08/13/2022:  11:59:06

I am sorry, but I think you are on the wrong track if you want to turn to 3 finger.

You have started with 2 finger (2FIL) and the main reason why you want to finish with 2FIL seems to be the lack of explicit 2FIL tabs. I think it will be easier for you to learn how to interpret CH tabs, than to start learning still another style. I have followed you since you started posting here, and I think if you start 3 finger you will soon come with a lot of new questions, while making no real progress. So it is better for you to continue develop your 2FIL style, instead of beginning from scratch with a new style. Perhaps later, when you have established 2FIL playing you may start looking at other styles.

When I started learning banjo in the late 60's and being in the late teenage I had one banjo book to start with: Peter Seeger's How To Play The 5-String Banjo. The book presented a lot of different styles but there were only one or two tabs for each style, but a lot of licks in different styles. So I learned the fundamentals of the different styles, and implemented on different songs I worked out myself (from records and song books). Perhaps it was hard in the beginning but after a year or two my main repertoire was songs and tunes I had worked out myself. So I never became tab dependent. Today I love to study tabs, but I always play my own versions.

DWFII - Posted - 08/13/2022:  13:12:46

quote:

---

Originally posted by janolov

I am sorry, but I think you are on the wrong track if you want to turn to 3 finger.

You have started with 2 finger (2FIL) and the main reason why you want to finish with 2FIL seems to be the lack of explicit 2FIL tabs. I think it will be easier for you to learn how to interpret CH tabs, than to start learning still another style. I have followed you since you started posting here, and I think if you start 3 finger you will soon come with a lot of new questions, while making no real progress. So it is better for you to continue develop your 2FIL style, instead of beginning from scratch with a new style. Perhaps later, when you have established 2FIL playing you may start looking at other styles.

When I started learning banjo in the late 60's and being in the late teenage I had one banjo book to start with: Peter Seeger's How To Play The 5-String Banjo. The book presented a lot of different styles but there were only one or two tabs for each style, but a lot of licks in different styles. So I learned the fundamentals of the different styles, and implemented on different songs I worked out myself (from records and song books). Perhaps it was hard in the beginning but after a year or two my main repertoire was songs and tunes I had worked out myself. So I never became tab dependent. Today I love to study tabs, but I always play my own versions.

---

Believe it or not, I hear you. And I am inclined to go no further down this path to 3F.

I know, in my gut, that I have not mastered or even come within striking distance of 'owning' the 2F material I have.

And yes, I kind of have an idea of how to deal with a brush in a CH tab--just hit the first string note... or the second string note, or maybe the third string note. Or maybe substitute a pinch.  I have enough CH material to tide me for a good long time.

But I am not a musician... if anything I am a Craftsman. I need structure and the 1st. string/2nd. string/3rd. string/pinch business is too vague for me. And the idea of "structure" directly impacts my desire/need for a syllabus.--if 2F tabs are scarce, 2F lesson plans are near-as-nevermind non-existent.

The 3F rolls that have been posted here seemed relatively do-able and a wealth of new materials. 

I get a little restless spending a half an hour plus practicing the same pinches and bum-ditties and alternate fingerings ...not to mention Bile Them Cabbage Down in 4/4 and 3/4 melodic and accompanying arrangements--over and over again.

I probably need a teacher but alas and alack for the lack locally.

Recently I rediscovered Chip Arnold's website and i have been working on his Sourwood Mountain variations--most exciting thing that has happened to me in a while.

Well, sorry for the long reply...but you did say you have been following my posts and I appreciate a sympathetic ear. And undoubtedly a wise one....thank you

Edited by - DWFII on 08/13/2022 13:16:51

dbrooks - Posted - 08/13/2022:  14:04:11

DWFII - I know you have a preference for index lead and have not, therefore, suggested you look at Matt Brown's two-finger web site (twofingerbanjo.com/) since Matt teaches thumb lead. You seem to be casting about trying different styles. Maybe 2ftl will unlock things for you. Matt is a great teacher with lots of online lessons. This week he started an 8-week beginners course at the Louisville Folk School. The course is hybrid - both in-person and online.

Matt and I teach on the same nights. All 3 of my experience clawhammer students also signed up for Matt's two-finger class which follows mine. There are 12 people in that class as of the first class.

David

DWFII - Posted - 08/13/2022:  14:12:00

quote:

---

Originally posted by dbrooks

DWFII - I know you have a preference for index lead and have not, therefore, suggested you look at Matt Brown's two-finger web site (twofingerbanjo.com/) since Matt teaches thumb lead. You seem to be casting about trying different styles. Maybe 2ftl will unlock things for you. Matt is a great teacher with lots of online lessons. This week he started an 8-week beginners course at the Louisville Folk School. The course is hybrid - both in-person and online.



Matt and I teach on the same nights. All 3 of my experience clawhammer students also signed up for Matt's two-finger class which follows mine. There are 12 people in that class as of the first class.



David

---

Thanks for the reply. I bought all three of Sebastian Schroeder's books... which more or less start with index lead then progress to thumb lead and finally to mixed lead. So 2FTL is definitely in my sights.

And I have looked at Matt's website and plan to make it a 'go-to' when I move on to TL.  (along with Josh Turknett's course.)

I just want to keep learning...

JSB88 - Posted - 08/14/2022:  03:09:29

Bit hesitant chiming in hear as so many more experienced people have given advice but just from my own experience, wanting to learn songs in 2ftl that I could only find in CH tab. I listened to the song, looked at the tab, listened to the song, looked at the tab, played what looked more it less like the melody notes only. Kept listening and then picking until it was in the ball park and then started adding the rolls and ornamentation, not from the ch tab but from the listened song and, tbh, whatever I felt sounded good. Some times I have started this process and then abandoned a tune for six months or a year and gone back to it when I have gained more experience. Short of a vid where you can see the fingering and hear the tune, I personally have found this approach the next best thing, and also am not reliant on finding the exact tab in my style of picking. Maybe this is what you are already doing, but you never know.

Helix - Posted - 08/14/2022:  06:37:37

Really, I'm not surprised so many people play this kind of music. I I replaced a drum shell recently for a Cherry rim.



In 1962 we built our own banjo.



Bluegrass patterns turned us off, we couldn't play jazz, neither.  We wanted to know how, not why. We were kids. 



I am relearning up-picking again for the pinch chords.



I turned to frailing years ago because there was less wear and tear on the wrist.



On guitar I also do 2F Travis style and and 3F Atkins style, I use those on my 12-string with two .010's on the third, open G with a .056 drop C in the bass with slide.



But I am going back and re-learning index finger downbeat on the guitar.



One of the six basic bluegrass rolls translated perfectly while I was woodshedding from knee surgery in 2004. I fell over the bluegrass fence and couldn't get back in the cocoon:



Foggy Mountain roll = IMTM TIMT 21215215 is only one of the secret bluegrass gates that lets you play well with others and real fun for me to go jam for the first time with the bluegrassers. I frail to vamp, it took them 5 weeks to catch me. Can you spell Stringbean.



This roll, however plays all 8 notes, and as we see you have found the secret to Boom Diddy as the 2nd beat is a rest, Boom Rest Did He?  All 4 beats are there. 



So having become familiar with index finger downbeat and working on thumb, then the six bluegrass rolls shouldn't be that hard. (Wernieke)

I had a "student" whom I sent home and came back in 30 days playing 1,2,3  1,2,3  1.2.3 and that's nine beats, hard as heck to retrain that poor guy. 

This is going to sound like I'm critical. Our coffeehouse sponsored one name that you would all know. They came with long fingernails and no picks. We are a pretty sophisticated crowd. The long fingernails and no picks just didn't make it with bluegrass.

Nick Hornbuckle and those Redbirds have played at fiddlersdream.org in Phoenix more than once now.  We studied while he played.  He sais he had been playing 3F since he was nine, but one day in the hotel, it just made sense to play the same notes with only two fingers.  I don't know anyone else doing that. 



I use up, down, claw and 3F in the same songs if need be. I find the audience "goes somewhere", and I mean not to the parking lot, when the "sound" of claw at the 19th fret with fingerpicks. They want you to take them somewhere and bring them back when you are done telling whatever tale.  We forget many people feel better after hearing us play when they cannot.  Or the shut-ins and assisted nursing homes. Even people in comas, still somebody home. 



At the coffeehouse, we are now getting many young people who are holding these traditions, but they are urban professionals in their spare time. It's a new "thang." The big city still doesn't hold the curious. The curious all went West. Now it's IT and AI and these people still need their roots, it's a great thing. (A young investment banker with a Cup-O-Phone came to see me with his new Bernunzio neck. He was so curious he got to install and dress his own frets.

These kids need "touch." "The Brown Mountain Lightning Bugs." "Down in the Holler." It makes me happy.



I think the Charlie Poole situation with the Ramblers sitting in RCA's office in New York, playing only 6 notes in the audition, how did they get to RCA?  They bluffed their way in,  they drank their way across the country is bluegrass lore. 



They knew clawhammer very well but they didn't want to be seen as "Hillbillies."

His right hand was injured in a baseball bet when these boys had been drinking. Like early Scruggs, Poole played a "proto-bluegrass."



These are my opinions only, your results may vary. You are just Santa Claus with a shave, I see you in there.



I have always enjoyed Don Borchelt, he's a class act.

Edited by - Helix on 08/14/2022 06:53:07

SHE'S WORKIN' ON HER ROLLS

 

chip arnold - Posted - 08/14/2022:  09:24:06

JSB88, The poster is learning 2-finger index lead. Clawhammer is also a 2-finger, finger lead style, so c'ammer tabs can be played as written in 2FIL style :-)

JSB88 - Posted - 08/14/2022:  09:46:39

chip arnold I did kind of think that index lead and ch worked the same, esp from a tab perspective, but I thought the OP said they were having difficulty finding tab to learn from? Maybe I got the wrong end of the stick.

chip arnold - Posted - 08/14/2022:  17:49:25

JSB88, You're right, he did say that. He's been told he can use c'hammer tab over and over again, but he comes up with reasons why he can't. I'm pretty much done answering his questions :-) :-(

DWFII - Posted - 08/14/2022:  20:17:33

chip arnold



Never in life would I deliberately disregard or disrespect you or your advice. I understand that CH tabs can be appropriate for playing 2FIL. I just can't seem to get my head around that for reasons I have tried to explain. Chalk it up to "dumb bootmaker" and no musician.



That said, I totally understand that, esp.  for those who have been playing banjo their whole lives, fielding dumb questions from newbies and dumb bootmakers can try the patience. I apologize for that.



I sincerely appreciate the efforts you and others have made to assist me and am deeply grateful your generosity.



I will not trouble you any further...

Edited by - DWFII on 08/14/2022 20:31:19

chip arnold - Posted - 08/15/2022:  04:32:49

DWFll, I apologize. I was in a pissy mood and behaved like a two year old. Your questions are sensible and honest and deserving of answers. You've done nothing to offend me or anyone else and I had no business tossing my own bad day at you. Pease stick around.

DWFII - Posted - 08/15/2022:  05:14:04

Mr. chip arnold



No worries. It's hard. I have taught people to make boots and shoes for over forty years. Some get it, some don't. Some just can't find in themselves the 'necessaries' to overcome their own inertia.



All by way of saying I know about 'dumb questions'--they're real and not always just because I'm impatient.

 

Edited by - DWFII on 08/15/2022 05:15:13

dbrooks - Posted - 08/15/2022:  05:43:17

Class act!!

DWFII - Posted - 08/15/2022:  06:33:11

quote:

---

Originally posted by dbrooks

Class act!!

---

If I can say this without coming off as an awkward gowk...I have watched Mr. chip Arnold on his website and on You tub, and followed his lessons and the thing I come away with is a sense of deep authenticity.  The camera sees it, I see it. And if there's one thing I respect above all other things in people it's authenticity.

So, yes-- a "class act."

writerrad - Posted - 08/18/2022:  15:59:16

quote:

---

Originally posted by DWFII

Is there such a thing as old time three finger picking? Anyone who is a leading advocate/teacher or any mp3's I should/can listen to?



Mostly curious but the dearth of tabs dedicated to two finger picking (esp index lead) is kind of discouraging.

---

Yes 3 finger picking was at its height in the era that old time music recording were made.  All the many recordings that Charlie Poole made were made with him playing 3 finger classic banjo.  Many of the recordings that Uncle Dave Macon made were made using 3 finger banjo.  All of the finger style recordings that Dock Boggs made were made commercially (he made a few claw hammer banjo recordings that were issued  by folk music enthusiasts) involved him playing 3 finger banjo.

I had a conversation about this issue with Mike Seeger about 15 years ago,   Mike felt that he played 3 finger style banjo on as many of the original New Lost City Ramblers recordings as any other style..

Some recordings were straight what we some call classic banjo today, with the appropriate term would be the guitar style of banjo.  Charlie Poole was devoted to this.  He wanted the record company to allow him to make ragtime and instrument recordings similar to those made by Fred Van Epps or Vess Ossman, and did make at least one recording of that nature.   The record company told him what he sold was hillbilly records and they could find a dozen people who could make 3 finger recordings in the neighborhood of NYC where the studio was and did not have to send to North Carolina to bring Poole.

Gus Cannon of Jug Band fame made all but one of his commerical recordings in the 1920s and early 30s using the 3 finger style.  Actually Cannon played in the true guitar banjo style as delineated by SS Stewart, using the thumb for the 5th and 4 strings, the index for the 3rd string, the middle for the 2nd string, and the ring finger for the first.  Cannon used his pinkie when he did tremelos.

The guitar banjo style was the dominant banjo style of musical performers and "banjo kings" in the late 19th century in both the UK and the USA. Even Edward Albert Saxe Couberg Gotha, better known as King Edward VII played the five string in this style.

writerrad - Posted - 08/18/2022:  16:10:56

Scruggs style is not the 3 finger style that was used in old time music.  Earl developed this style in the 1940s trying to update the style which he had learned as a teenager.  He had neighbors who played that style of banjo including one who recorded the record the Man who wrote the Home Sweet home never was a married man, who was a relative of one of Earl's neighborhors and who visited his parents.  Earl said he first heard that played when he was 6 years old and people I know who have spent time at Earl's home with him said he could play it just like the record very late in his life.

Listen to Charlie Poole and Listen to Dave Macon, although Macon also played a lot of frailing and a lot of 2 finger.   Old time 3 finger is not like Scruggs style because it is based on a different kind of rhythm and an enitrely different role of the banjo.  In that regard Earl's style takes a lot from 2 finger banjo.  Earl said he started out as 2 finger thumb lead player and added the 3rd finger when he became a teenager, although like I wrote about, he also said he had heard 3 finger since early childhood.

Earl and Charlie Poole and many of the people who recorded in the 20s and Early 30s came from cotton mill areas of the Piedmont of Carolina, Tennessee, and Georgia.   People like Earl who did go into the cotton mills (Earl actually considered returning to the mills when he couldnt support his family on what Monroe paid him) often had opportunities, particularly in music they had not had living on isolated farms.  They were often gathered in Mill villages, or mill village section of towns like Atlanta.   The mills often set up music rooms and hired music instructors and encouraged this kind of corporatist activity as an antidote to unions.   In  1920 or 1930 if a music teacher was going to teach someone to play the banjo, she or he would teach them the style considered "classic" a three--actually 4 finger--style.

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Originally posted by DWFII

I don't suppose there's any instructional books on the order of Sebastian Schroeder's 2 Finger Banjo books or websites with half a dozen plus introductory lessons on how to do three finger? And/or some simple tabs with fingering indicators? (I, M,T)



Or is it just Scrugg's style without the finger picks?



I am no master of any style but I have been working on my two finger, index lead, for at least six / seven months now and I feel that I am 'comfortable' with 2F and maybe could add that middle finger?



To be honest, I shied away from Bluegrass style picking at first because it looked terribly tense for the right hand. The material I latched onto in the beginning was fairly 'rigid' about the angle of the hand and position of the fingers, etc.. Scared me off, I suppose.



But now I have an anchor, at least, for my 2F and it doesn't feel tense at all. So...



Again, mostly curious.

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writerrad - Posted - 08/18/2022:  16:59:07

quote:

I have known Pete for about 12 years and the last 2 or 3 years I have been taking weekly lessons with him on 2 finger, mostly index lead.  I am not sure if he actually gives lessons in 3 finger as opposed to 2finger,  although he does advise me to use a  3 finger approach on a few tunes especially to play chord rhythm for backup.    He can certainly play 3 finger both in the "classic" style or bluegrass.  I am not sure if he is at a stage where he is taking on students who he does not know.

If I had just learned 2 finger, I would keep working on it, rather than trying to get into 3 finger.  2 finger has many different styles both index lead and thumb lead, and styles that are close to clawhammer and styles that are close to classic banjo. 

 I started playing the equivalent of 2 finger on the guitar in the early 1960s and have been playing 2 finger banjo since that night in 1999 when I took my first Good Time home,     

I am not sure if Don Borchelt gives lessons, although he is botha superb player and a superb thinker about the banjo.   

There are a lot of great players in a variety of styles who play 2 finger banjo, some in styles very close to clawhammer, some in styles very close to the guitar banjo style.  Some a mixture.  If I had played 2 finger for a few monthsm I would still be exploring it.  I have played 2 finger banjo since 1999 at leat, and I still take lessons in it.

On the other hand, if your desire is to learn the Scruggs tyle, I dont blame you.  If I were a young blade, a teeny bopper at say 60 or 65,  I would probably go for scruggs, but at 75 I try to just remember the thing I do know.

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Originally posted by Bill Rogers

Pete Peterson (Orpheus Supertones) and Joseph DeCosimo (Blue Ridge Broadcasters for one) are excellent old-time fingerpickers, though their styles differ. Joseph also plays great clawhammwe.

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writerrad - Posted - 08/18/2022:  17:25:05

quote:

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Originally posted by RG

Selected Uncle Dave Macon, Kirk McGee, George Pegram, Lewis "Big Sweet" Hairston, Wade Ward (when he played with Charlie Higgins), Gus Cannon, Junie Scruggs, Snuffy Jenkins, just to name a few...



As far as tabs for two finger index lead, any clawhammer tab will do, clawhammer is an index lead style, just reverse from downstroke to upstroke...

  He is not looking for 2 finger but wonders if he should advance to 3 finger.  But that is based on an assumption that 3 finger is only scruggs style.

Macon played 2 finger and also played in the guitar banjo classic style (which is actually a 4 finger style as did Gus Cannon.  Cannon was adamant about using 4 fingers and though he could play terrific clawhammer and could exhibit the first 2 finger tune he learned in 1894 or so, he considered serious banjo to be the pure classic style as SS Stewart would have taught it and looked down on traditional clawhammer players. 

  Kirk McGhee may have played 3 finger, or may not.  I know I once thought Sam McGhee--probably the greatest banjoist of his era, Dave Macon had Sam play for him in banjo contests where the contestant would play behind a curtain--played 3 finger but people who know say he did it all  2 finger,

I think Big Lewis H played both 3 finger and 2 finger depending on his inclination.  He was a very deep devotee of Bluegrass and his repertoire even as recorded by folklorists like Kip Lornell  was pretty much out of the Flatt and Scruggs book though he had his own approach to rhythm and how to do the rolls was unique.  I have all the recordings, not only those publicly available but some from folklorists not available to the public.  Lewis comes off pretty much in his banjo playing--he played fiddle too--as someone who had heard Scruggs and others on the radio but figured out his own approaches to tunes. 

Snuffy started out as a 2 finger picker and may even have played 2 finger in his brief period with Monroe.  I dont know if anyone can find very much by either Junie or Snuffy that you would call old time music as opposed to bluegrass, but I think anyone who even wants to know someone who plays the banjo should listen to those guys.

The best  stuff for old time music with 3 finger style on the banjo would be to get the early New Lost City Ramblers records where as I said Mike said he used 3 finger a whole lot. All the records before Tom Paley went to Europe, everything before Gone to the Country which came out in 1965,

Mike had really aspired to be a bluegrass banjo player before the NLCR thing came along. He told me once he had tried that but he didnt think he really had the chops to be a pro bluegrass picker.  But he really was oriented to getting down to reproducing what the original players did.  Mike did a lot of those early tunes where he played the banjo doing 3 finger picking on his RB.   I would also listen to Charlie Poole and Dock Boggs, although Boggs was totally unique.  He worked at developing his own way to play the banjo completely different from anyone else consciously and looked to blues guitarists and jazz music and other stuff.   

I had a similar discussion with Tom about this issue  a couple times both in England and when he visited Florida around 2008, and he too said he had played a lot of 3 finger on the early NLCR recordings.   Once he left the USA Tom became obsessed with fiddling.  I have actually seen Tom playing the fiddle when he was asleep with perfect time and we'd have to tell to stop and go to bed.

I never talked about this issue with John Cohen, although one time we were at a party where Clarke Beuhling began to play Converse's variations on "Home Sweet Home. "  John said some of the rolls were pretty similar to what he had played in the NLCR's replication of the Man who Wrote the home sweet home .

If your contacted Borchelt, I am sure if he does not give lessons,  but he is a wise and generous person who would direct you to someone who might help.  If I were you I would keep working on 2 finger.  I have been doing so since 1999.

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writerrad - Posted - 08/18/2022:  17:29:51

quote:Yes he definitely has some stuff on 3 finger old time in the link there,

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Originally posted by janolov

Josh Turknett also has instruction in finger style: fingerstylebanjo.com/. 

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writerrad - Posted - 08/18/2022:  17:35:37

quote  I have taken lessons with Pete for about 2 and a half years and known him for about 15.  He teaches 3  finger mainly for rhythm playing but both thumb and index lead for leading playing.   

Clarke Buehling who plays banjo with the high ballers certainly is one of the greatest guitar style banjoists on Earth and probably the best for for playing old time music, as he does with the High Ballers.   Clarke is certainly always looking for students with Zoom or if you can go to him.   He is a wise fun person.

 

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Originally posted by hobogal

Check out the following current bands for examples of fiddle backup: The Ozark Highballers, Betse and Clarke, Rocky Creek Ramblers, Steam Machine...

There isn't a 'how to' book but any beginner bluegrass book will teach you basic roll patterns for three fingerstyle.  The in/out (or 'box roll') is your basic bum-ditty.  You might find Janet Davis 'Splitting the Licks' helpful - she gives a basic version (which will sound 'old-time' as it is stripped back without the distinctive bluegrass licks).

Note, Charlie Poole, Pete Peterson, Clarke Buehling use a more 'classic-style' chordal banjo approach rather than the continuous rolling backup more common in bluegrass. I did a video on Charlie Poole style a while ago (apologies for the poor audio - my voice is a whisper!):youtube.com/watch?v=mAWzpbvbaEw&t=141s

Some good videos on Dock Boggs (singing with banjo) approach: youtube.com/watch?v=aG3L1oC7DgY&t=195s

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writerrad - Posted - 08/18/2022:  17:42:43

quote:quite happy master 2 finger whether or not you want to learn 3 finger or to play the accordian.  2 finger is a very rich world with all kinds of different playing.  It is probably as frequent in the banjo playing of old time music as any other style and advance because is quite suited to metal strings and all the developments in banjo making that began in the 1880s.

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Originally posted by DWFII

quote:

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Originally posted by dbrooks

DWFII - I know you have a preference for index lead and have not, therefore, suggested you look at Matt Brown's two-finger web site (twofingerbanjo.com/) since Matt teaches thumb lead. You seem to be casting about trying different styles. Maybe 2ftl will unlock things for you. Matt is a great teacher with lots of online lessons. This week he started an 8-week beginners course at the Louisville Folk School. The course is hybrid - both in-person and online.



Matt and I teach on the same nights. All 3 of my experience clawhammer students also signed up for Matt's two-finger class which follows mine. There are 12 people in that class as of the first class.



David

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Thanks for the reply. I bought all three of Sebastian Schroeder's books... which more or less start with index lead then progress to thumb lead and finally to mixed lead. So 2FTL is definitely in my sights.

And I have looked at Matt's website and plan to make it a 'go-to' when I move on to TL.  (along with Josh Turknett's course.)

I just want to keep learning...

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writerrad - Posted - 08/18/2022:  17:47:08

quote:  Anything that helps, helps.   I find that many players who play only by tab paralyze their learning and do not move to be able to play without it.  The great majority of old time banjo players of any era did not have tab at all which seems to have started to be introduced into the 5 string banjo world with Pete's book.   

Old time banjo is a folk style includng 2 finger that was created by people who never heard of tabulatore and played by people who learned by oral and aural tradition and watching others, not from tab.,

My teacher Pete Peterson one of the best old time banjoists on this planet at 2 finger and 3 finger,  a man who is musically literate ona  sophisticated level does not use tab whatsoever.  JSSB is exactly right,

 

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Originally posted by

Bit hesitant chiming in hear as so many more experienced people have given advice but just from my own experience, wanting to learn songs in 2ftl that I could only find in CH tab. I listened to the song, looked at the tab, listened to the song, looked at the tab, played what looked more it less like the melody notes only. Kept listening and then picking until it was in the ball park and then started adding the rolls and ornamentation, not from the ch tab but from the listened song and, tbh, whatever I felt sounded good. Some times I have started this process and then abandoned a tune for six months or a year and gone back to it when I have gained more experience. Short of a vid where you can see the fingering and hear the tune, I personally have found this approach the next best thing, and also am not reliant on finding the exact tab in my style of picking. Maybe this is what you are already doing, but you never know.

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David M - Posted - 08/19/2022:  01:01:38

I've played my own style of bare 3 finger picking for years. I don't regard myself as musical but fairly practical so taught myself a style and play hundreds of old tunes. I'm not sure if that's an oldtime style or not.



I started with a basic T-l-T-M roll and easily incorporated simple tunes like You Are My Sunshine etc using it. Then I added slides, hammer-ons and pull-offs where they naurally fell and gradually found it easier to play tunes by ear...

Edited by - David M on 08/19/2022 01:15:35

Swanee River

Let Him Go Let Him Tarry

Waynebg - Posted - 08/19/2022:  11:44:49

FWIW:



I have been working up fiddle tunes in a 3 finger style (with picks) for years, trying to get the the melody in as much detail as I can. I am primarily a bluegrass player and took up old-time fiddle in 2004, so both influence my playing and tune choices.



Honestly, I rarely get to play many of the fiddle tunes I've worked up with others---few are played in the bluegrass jams I attend and I don't think my banjo would be welcome in the local old time jams.



Fortunately, there's room in the circle at the banjohangout and I've been sharing videos in the SoundOff section.



As a pandemic project I've been putting together a tab book of the tunes I've worked up over the years.

Please check out my youtube banjo playlist here:



youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5Y...QtAF8Q3lR

Edited by - Waynebg on 08/19/2022 11:48:53

hweinberg - Posted - 08/19/2022:  13:40:56

When I taught stuff that many students found challenging, I used to tell them about Ptolemy and Euclid. Ptolemy was the first king of Egypt after the death of Alexander the Great. He personally sponsored Euclid -- he could spot talent -- but he found Euclid's "The Elements" of geometry, too challenging. So he asked Euclid to show him an easier way to learn it. According to the philosopher Proclus, Euclid famously said: "Sire, there is no royal road to geometry."
You just have to do the work. The great thing about learning to play an instrument is that in addition to the feeling of accomplishment when you learn to do something, it is just so much damn fun. DW needs to do the work and have the fun -- and then do some more.
Sorry for rambling on. I, too, have been reading this thread thinking that it's not about learning to play the banjo in any sense that I can make out. All that said, I wish DW the best!

olddammike - Posted - 09/11/2022:  09:45:07

Arthur Smith Trio 'Bound To Ride.' 'Fiddlin' Arthur Smith played a great three finger banjo on this one, recorded 1936 or'37. youtu.be/V-V_m0cBBLA
I'm sure this was part of the same tradition that instructed Earl Scruggs, who would have been pretty well formed by that moment in time.

Don Borchelt - Posted - 09/11/2022:  12:20:37

quote:

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Originally posted by olddammike

Arthur Smith Trio 'Bound To Ride.' 'Fiddlin' Arthur Smith played a great three finger banjo on this one, recorded 1936 or'37. youtu.be/V-V_m0cBBLA

I'm sure this was part of the same tradition that instructed Earl Scruggs, who would have been pretty well formed by that moment in time.

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He recorded that in February of 1937, backed up by Alton and Rabon Delmore, the Delmore brothers.  This was twenty years before his association with the McGee brothers.

chip arnold - Posted - 09/11/2022:  17:37:31

David M., that's just beautiful playing.

Edited by - chip arnold on 09/11/2022 17:40:33

David M - Posted - 09/12/2022:  00:38:37

That's very kind of you Chip and means a lot thanks.

Helix - Posted - 09/12/2022:  05:42:30

DWFII Thank you for posting, that generated a great discussion.

got my two cents in there, I learned a lot , the whole post gets a class act tag, there are no tabs for that. lots of heart, though.

DWFII - Posted - 09/12/2022:  06:18:01

quote:

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Originally posted by David M

I've played my own style of bare 3 finger picking for years. I don't regard myself as musical but fairly practical so taught myself a style and play hundreds of old tunes. I'm not sure if that's an oldtime style or not.



I started with a basic T-l-T-M roll and easily incorporated simple tunes like You Are My Sunshine etc using it. Then I added slides, hammer-ons and pull-offs where they naurally fell and gradually found it easier to play tunes by ear...

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I'm not skilled enough or experienced enough to have my opinion carry any weight but I really liked your arrangements. They seem very melody forward... which is what I've been seeking in the short time that I've been trying to teach myself (for lack of other resources). And, in that sense, your basic approach seems what I've been gravitating towards for some time (asking here in these forums, as well)--embroidering the melody without ever losing sight of it... nor letting the listener lose sight of it. 

Correct me if I'm wrong but it looks like a thumb lead with the middle finger helping. What strings do you pick with the middle finger? Just the first or any string that is reachable and natural?

I know you're playing mostly by ear but do you, by any chance, have a tab or two that I can look at...study...?

Anyway...good on you. And thank you for posting these (and confirming my hoped-for suspicions xD).

David M - Posted - 09/12/2022:  07:22:13

Thanks DWFll I appreciate your reply.

My style developed from a lack of being able to make bluegrass picking sound anything but machine gun like..! I thought the T I T M roll sounded like a pretty sprinkle of notes and it was quite natural for me to pick most of the melody with my thumb and sometimes index finger with the middle finger just hitting the first string. It is also easy to get an alternating thumb/middle finger technique going for a sound of notes in quick succession when required as the melody note regularity increases, a little like a plectrum player would do.

I have found though that not playing pro written arrangements, my standard can only creep forward with my own limited imagination and embellishments so a lot of my tunes sound similar these days.

Sadly, I've only ever tried tabbing out one of my tunes but found writing the timing required was often stumping me. My advice though would be to try picking my arrangement of 'Let Him Go Let Him Tarry' posted above in C, that is a pretty basic melody to get the hang of. Start really slowly and see where your fingers naturally want to fall, I'm sure you'll pick up the style in no time. Also try getting very smooth on the T I T M roll and pick out the melody to 'You Are My Sunshine' in G with your thumb whilst keeping that roll going. Break up the roll with just an alternating thumb/middle finger when you need to go down the strings.

If it's stumping you then please PM me and I'll try and write out a basic tab for an easy tune to get you started, then show where I'd add slides, hammer on/pull offs etc to make it flow better.

Atb.. David