DWFII - Posted - 01/17/2022:  10:50:03

I have a Deering John Hartford. I have taken the resonator off of it and and am trying to learn clawhammer on it. Since getting this banjo, I have gleaned some interesting facts about it and banjos in general. A lot from this forum and links provided here. Thank you all.

I don't know how much this banjo weighs w/o the resonator, but from what I have seen on the various banjo sites a good openback might run anywhere from 5-7lbs. I have no way of determining weight or comparing at this moment, but the Hartford seems heavy...heavier than 7lbs. What would a fair estimate of the Hartford's weight be? 

I recently posted a question about 'frailing' scoops. Just yesterday I realized that the Hartford (this one at least) does have a scoop...duh! It isn't very deep and there is less string clearance over the scoop than over the head, but it is definitely there and with some work maybe even usable for me.

When I first began looking for a banjo to learn on, I was looking at the Deering Goodtime--it seemed like a fair balance of price and quality and tone.  Today, I saw a post about a year old Gold Tone CC-100+. So I went over to the Gold Tone site and perused the openbacks.  Again, a good balance between quality and price. Weight was around 6lbs.

So that made me wonder how the Gold tone and the Goodtime would compare with regard to build quality and sound?  Is there anyone here who has played or owned both who can speak to the relative quality of both?

The other question springs from the fact that I would like a softer, more personal, maybe more old-time sound than I am getting on the Hartford presently. I have thought about replacing the tailpiece on the Hartford to accommodate nylgut strings. I don't think it would be all that hard. That's one of the things that originally attracted me to both openback banjos and clawhammer style.

And that brings me full circle...I know the Hartford is a really high quality instrument. Probably more so than either the Goodtime or the CC-100+. If the weight difference is not too great, and I replace the tailpiece, and I leave the resonator off, can the Hartford  really and truly be a good clawhammer banjo? As good or better than a dedicated openback at half+/- the price?

Emiel - Posted - 01/17/2022:  10:53:10

Every banjo can be good for clawhammer. (Also a Gibson Mastertone.)

pianojuggler - Posted - 01/17/2022:  11:19:50

I think it mostly comes down to the sound you want. Many people play clawhammer on a resonator banjo. If you are playing in a group and want more volume so you can actually be heard, you want a tone ring and a resonator. Every banjo has a unique voice and it's a matter of finding one with the voice that tickles your fancy.

It's just that clawhammer is *usually* associated with Old Time music and the sound of an open back banjo.

My first banjo was an Ibanez B50 (the standard Chinese cheapy) and I took off the resonator and preferred the sound a lot. I ended up buying a banjo that was made from parts of two or three other banjos and the pot is from a Masterclone with a tone ring, but it is open back. I like its voice a lot.

As far as weight goes, you probably won't find anything lighter than a Goodtime except maybe a Gold Tone AC-1 which is mostly plastic (but still a decent banjo for $200).

I really like the sound of a Goodtime. It's maple. It doesn't have a tone ring. I has a nice plunk -- in fact, I think it has more plink than plunk and that's the sound I prefer. I've never played the CC-100, so I cannot comment on the differences between it and the Goodtime.


I realize that from Redmond, Oregon, the nearest shops are probably in Corvallis and Eugene... not just down the block. Heck, even in Seattle, there are only three or four stores with banjos. And on top of that, with global supply chain disruptions, nobody has a lot of instruments in stock.

So the advice to get out there are play everything you can get your hands on is a bit tough to actually do.

Also, listening to other people playing instruments on youtube isn't really good... playing it yourself is a totally different experience.


Finally, now that you've shared a bit about how the Deering John Hartford came to be in your care, I would be reluctant to modify it much (although taking off the resonator and swapping the tailpiece are easily reversible). I would also be reluctant to travel with it.


But, yes the Deering John Hartford can be an awesome clawhammer banjo. The question is whether it is YOUR notion of an awesome clawhammer banjo.

banjered - Posted - 01/17/2022:  11:31:48

So much of what people want in a Clawhammer banjo is not better or worse but PREFERENCE. Me, I too prefer a lightweight banjo whereas others really want a banjo built like Fort Knox. Therefore a thinner rim, not so many hooks (12-14, not 24 etc.), a lighter tension hoop and if you prefer the sound, not even a metal tone ring which ups the banjo weight. I have an Enoch Tradesman set up this way but an even better way to go these days for a high quality lightweight banjo is with the Stone Banjo Company, and his banjos can be found here at this website. Because he is new and starting out, his banjos are underpriced compared to the competition by several hundred dollars, and, his work is impeccable. Best! banjered

tonehead - Posted - 01/17/2022:  11:35:20

I don't have the figures on the relative weights of these banjos. The John Hartford has a wood tone ring - which should help lighten the "load". Are you comfortable with the weight of the Hartford ? It would make an outstanding banjo for clawhammer with or without the resonator. The Gold Tone and the Goodtime - while very good banjos are not in the same sphere as a John Hartford. If you should want to mod the Hartford for nygut you will also have to accomodate for the extra thickess and file out your nut slots a bit.

banjered - Posted - 01/17/2022:  11:39:11

Stone banjos here at BHO banjohangout.org/classifieds/s...Submit=Go

banjered - Posted - 01/17/2022:  11:44:05

If you keep the excellent Hartford banjo, for a tailpiece compatible with Nylgut I really like the Fielding fan tailpiece. Apparently you can't get them at Elderly.com any more but I heard that Gold Tone is making a copycat version, I don't know the quality of them if that is true. No matter what you end up with, watch out for those slicing burrs on the tuners, nut, bridge, or tailpiece. banjered

GrahamHawker - Posted - 01/17/2022:  11:48:36

quote:

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Originally posted by DWFII

So that made me wonder how the Gold tone and the Goodtime would compare with regard to build quality and sound?

 

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The Goodtime is often suggested as a good starter banjo. There are a lot of fans. I've never played one but I don't like the lack of a truss rod and it always seem to sound a bit over bright and perhaps, as someone described it on here, a bit dry sound. The rim looks a bit thick to me - good thinner rims are less bright.

The standard Goldtone CC-100 is a another decent starter banjo. It has a rolled brass tone ring but the rim is multiply. I have something very similar from the same factory Goldtone used to use. The sound is thinner than those with better rims but mine works fairly well now. The CC100+ is better specced. It has a three ply rim and rolled brass tone ring. This is where I'd be looking. Or a similar CB-100. But I'd also consider a Recording KIng OT25. Good rim, no tone ring and decent quality hardware. I have one of these. I also have one with a rolled brass tone ring (with a different name on the headstock) and the sound is a bit better.

banjered - Posted - 01/17/2022:  11:57:53

Neither an "expert" or a "master."

A guy was looking for enlightenment. He heard about a master in India on a mountain top. Finally he reaches him.

"Master, how can I become enlightened

You will be enlightened when you have good judgement.

How does one acquire good judgement?

From experience.

How does one acquire experience?

From BAD judgement."

'Nuff said. banjered

banjered - Posted - 01/17/2022:  11:59:34

quote:

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Originally posted by banjered

Neither an "expert" or a "master."



A guy was looking for enlightenment. He heard about a master in India on a mountain top. Finally he reaches him.



"Master, how can I become enlightened?"



"You will be enlightened when you have good judgement."



"How does one acquire good judgement?"



"From experience."



"How does one acquire experience?"



"From BAD judgement."



'Nuff said. banjered

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DWFII - Posted - 01/17/2022:  12:04:22

Thanks to everyone for the replies...keep 'em coming. xD

Anything similar to the Fielding fan tailpiece?

OT: Is there a section of BHO dedicated to reviews?

Dan Gellert - Posted - 01/17/2022:  12:04:48

You seem to me to be putting a whole train of carts in front of your horse. You have an excellent instrument. Just play it. Most of the questions you are asking have answers that are mainly dependent on individual taste and preference, and until you have some experience playing, you're not going to know what you want and what you don't.

DWFII - Posted - 01/17/2022:  12:09:24

quote:

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Originally posted by banjered

If you keep the excellent Hartford banjo, for a tailpiece compatible with Nylgut I really like the Fielding fan tailpiece. Apparently you can't get them at Elderly.com any more but I heard that Gold Tone is making a copycat version, I don't know the quality of them if that is true. No matter what you end up with, watch out for those slicing burrs on the tuners, nut, bridge, or tailpiece. banjered

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The Balsam Hawktail looks similar. balsambanjoworks.com/product/h...ailpiece/

??

DWFII - Posted - 01/17/2022:  12:13:13

quote:

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Originally posted by Dan Gellert

You seem to me to be putting a whole train of carts in front of your horse. You have an excellent instrument. Just play it. Most of the questions you are asking have answers that are mainly dependent on individual taste and preference, and until you have some experience playing, you're not going to know what you want and what you don't.

I understand and appreciate the advice. And despite the impression you may be getting from all these questions, I plan to take it slow and easy. But I am a very curious sort and will run down rabbit holes willy-nilly. I don't mind storing useless (?) information in my brain for long periods of time. I really don't.

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Edited by - DWFII on 01/17/2022 12:18:48

Dan Gellert - Posted - 01/17/2022:  12:42:37

quote:

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Originally posted by DWFII

quote:

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Originally posted by Dan Gellert

You seem to me to be putting a whole train of carts in front of your horse. You have an excellent instrument. Just play it. Most of the questions you are asking have answers that are mainly dependent on individual taste and preference, and until you have some experience playing, you're not going to know what you want and what you don't.

I understand and appreciate the advice. And despite the impression you may be getting from all these questions, I plan to take it slow and easy. But I am a very curious sort and will run down rabbit holes willy-nilly. I don't mind storing useless (?) information in my brain for long periods of time. I really don't.

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As ADHD as I am, I can dig it. My head is chock full of tenuously-connected trivia, and yes, sometimes a piece of it does come in very handy in the real world.

The hole you really want to dive down is LISTENING.  When you hear something that grabs you, listen to it until it wears a groove in your brain. Then you can start figuring out how to get your hands on your banjo to make that sound....

GrahamHawker - Posted - 01/17/2022:  12:44:49

quote:

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Originally posted by DWFII

OT: Is there a section of BHO dedicated to reviews?

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Yes the reviews section.

banjohangout.org/reviews/

DWFII - Posted - 01/17/2022:  12:58:04

quote:

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Originally posted by GrahamHawker

quote:

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Originally posted by DWFII

OT: Is there a section of BHO dedicated to reviews?

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Yes the reviews section.

banjohangout.org/reviews/

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Thanks. i don't know why but I couldn't find it.

DWFII - Posted - 01/17/2022:  16:35:15

quote:

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Originally posted by banjered

If you keep the excellent Hartford banjo, for a tailpiece compatible with Nylgut I really like the Fielding fan tailpiece. Apparently you can't get them at Elderly.com any more but I heard that Gold Tone is making a copycat version, I don't know the quality of them if that is true. No matter what you end up with, watch out for those slicing burrs on the tuners, nut, bridge, or tailpiece. banjered

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Took my first face-to-face today. And talked it over with the instructor. He suggested that I try nylgut...to see which I like better.

So the question is if I replace the tailpiece with the Pisgah/Balsam Hawktail, I am looking at the Pisgah-Aquila Nylgut Frailing Banjo Strings.--the diameters are .22, .26, .31., .35, .22. This is so different from steel string diameters but am I correct in assuming that these are the strings for an open G tuning?

PS.despite the resrvations about 'my" Hartford, I am leaning hard towards making it my 'forever' banjo. Even the teacher was impressed by the sound.

Edited by - DWFII on 01/17/2022 16:37:55

banjered - Posted - 01/17/2022:  16:47:58

Yes that is for standard G tuning but it is .022, .026 etc and the Pisgah Hawk Tailpiece will be fine. banjered

RioStat - Posted - 01/17/2022:  17:14:15

I'm just glad that I don't know the person who scooped a Deering Hartford.

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 01/17/2022:  17:20:02

quote:

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Originally posted by RioStat

I'm just glad that I don't know the person who scooped a Deering Hartford.

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Darned Right!

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 01/17/2022:  17:27:19

DFll:

I wish I had your Hartford.  If you'd like, I'll trade you the $40 pawn-shop Harmony I learned on!!!

pianojuggler - Posted - 01/17/2022:  17:56:50

quote:

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Originally posted by DWFII

PS.despite the resrvations about 'my" Hartford, I am leaning hard towards making it my 'forever' banjo. Even the teacher was impressed by the sound.

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I've never played one or heard one in person.  But knowing a bit about John Hartford, I am sure he would not allow his name to be put on a banjo unless it was truly awesome (as was he).

You can imagine something similar about a Gibson Earl Scruggs model.

Me?  I would not make any irreversible changes to a John Hartford.  While a nut can be replaced to go back to steel strings, I would be very VERY hesitant to modify the nut for nylon strings.

I'm not an expert or a master of much of anything.  

Were I you, which I'm not, I would keep the resonator off, get or make a nice strap so the hooks aren't digging into your thighs, and play the heck out of the John Hartford.  If you want to swap some plink for plunk, loosen the nuts on the hooks an eighth of a turn.  Maybe try different bridges -- a fairly inexpensive and fast mod.  Try a spillway dam style.  Or, heck... you probably have tools and interesting wood lying around.  Try making a bridge of softer wood and see what that does to your banjo's voice.

And if a Goodtime or something similar floats past, grab it try it.

DWFII - Posted - 01/17/2022:  17:59:12

quote:

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Originally posted by RioStat

I'm just glad that I don't know the person who scooped a Deering Hartford.

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I can't say for sure  but the scoop in the fingerboard looks integral. The fingerboard goes from 5mm the length of the neck to 2mm in the scoop.

So, the initial indication is that it was Deering.

DWFII - Posted - 01/17/2022:  18:05:29

quote:

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Originally posted by pianojuggler

Me?  I would not make any irreversible changes to a John Hartford.  While a nut can be replaced to go back to steel strings, I would be very VERY hesitant to modify the nut for nylon strings. 

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Yeah, I asked my luthier about that too, He said it wasn't a big  deal to replace the nut with one better suited to nylgut. That way, I'd still have the original tail piece the original bridge and the original nut.

RioStat - Posted - 01/17/2022:  18:44:32

How's about posting a few pictures of this Hartford?

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 01/17/2022:  19:10:02

I played a 1974 RB-250 for a number of years before I ordered a Maple Custom model from Mike Ramsey in 1996.

The Gibson was just fine, and easily modified to work well for OT.  The head was easy to change out- just loosen a couple dozen nuts.  I even stretched a calfskin for it at one point. A No-Knot tailpiece was also a snap to install, and of course changing bridges and strings are real easy.

Back in '93 I was interested in getting a Hartford model.  I contacted Deering to see if they'd make me one with bracket shoes and no resonator.  They said they'd be happy to do one in their custom shop.  Seems like it may have run around 2K at the time which I couldn't talk myself into.  Always liked the Hartford model.  The only thing I'd personally do is have some engraving done on that big fancy inlay in the middle of the fingerboard.

In the end, you've got to get what you want.  if you have to talk yourself into it, it'll nag at you from now on.  The Hartford is a great banjo, but like I said, I've got a Harmony that's calling your name!  

Sounds like you're at the very beginning.  Get some time and experience under your belt.  Even another year or two may change what you want.  In the end, a banjo is a tool- you need the right one for the job.  Have you settled on what sort of music, and what style of that music you want to play?  What music drew you to the banjo in the first place?  What did the banjoists in that musical style play?  Your Hartford may be tailor-made for what you want to do... or not.  One thing is for sure-  it's a professional grade instrument.

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 01/17/2022:  19:33:19

Dusty Miller - Fretless Banjo - Clawhammer - YouTube

Not to beat the Harmony (which is what Hunter is playing) thing to death, but the great thing about OT is that clawhammer can sound really great on the cheapest banjos which in my experience were often played by the old-timers in my younger days. There's also something kind of cool about playing great music on a cast off banjo that illicits disapproving looks from the "in" crowd.



Folks drool over vintage Whyte Ladyes, etc., but the reason that the old-timers played them was because they were old, cheap, and not the new fancy banjo in their day. Often, the old-timers would get themselves a brand new resonated Mastertone in their later years when they could afford one. Check out Wade Ward, arguably the most iconic CHer there is. That's the thing- the old-timers weren't trying to be old-timers like we are. Besides, the last thing S.S. Stewart would want is for a bunch of "ham-handed bangers" to be thumping away on one of his banjos!

Edited by - R.D. Lunceford on 01/17/2022 19:36:03

Bill Rogers - Posted - 01/17/2022:  21:01:57

You won’t likely find a better banjo than the Hartford. Deerings are very well made. You can find different banjos— in sound, style, design. Some will be as well-made as the Deering; many won’t be. Some fancier; some plainer. For clawhammer, it’s a matter of your preference—not mine or someone else’s. Try any banjo you consider. It has to make you happy—no one else.

tonehead - Posted - 01/18/2022:  12:35:44

quote:

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Originally posted by DWFII

quote:

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Originally posted by RioStat

I'm just glad that I don't know the person who scooped a Deering Hartford.

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I can't say for sure  but the scoop in the fingerboard looks integral. The fingerboard goes from 5mm the length of the neck to 2mm in the scoop.

So, the initial indication is that it was Deering.  

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   Further "proof" that is was done at Deering ( having looked at your instagram photo) is that it is scooped but still has the JH inlay ( above the scoop)

  "Normally" that inlay is right next to the rim.  Beautiful banjo you have there. 

Edited by - tonehead on 01/18/2022 12:48:56

maryzcox - Posted - 01/18/2022:  13:52:30

quote:

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Originally posted by Dan Gellert

You seem to me to be putting a whole train of carts in front of your horse. You have an excellent instrument. Just play it. Most of the questions you are asking have answers that are mainly dependent on individual taste and preference, and until you have some experience playing, you're not going to know what you want and what you don't.

Yes--I like what Dan has advised--but I'd like to add that many wonderful banjos have been totally messed up with folks just tinkering around with them--trying this and that. If you want to do that--I'd recommend taking a banjo building course or try to build one from a kit--so you can learn what is actually involved.   But--IMHO--I would not fool around with your Hartford--find and hire a really good set up man (You might have to go to Nashville to find a good set up person) Or find a banjo builder in your area who will discuss with you the tone you want and hire them to set it up like that.  You will probably spend as much on a good set up and repair on a good banjo that's been abused as a cheaper model banjo--it just depends on what you expect from a banjo.  But remember--all banjos need care, repairs and set ups to sound their best and if you don't know how to do that yourself--you're going to have to pay someone who does.  

Hope this helps,

maryzcox.com

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maryzcox - Posted - 01/18/2022:  14:09:41

quote:

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Originally posted by R.D. Lunceford

Dusty Miller - Fretless Banjo - Clawhammer - YouTube

Not to beat the Harmony (which is what Hunter is playing) thing to death, but the great thing about OT is that clawhammer can sound really great on the cheapest banjos which in my experience were often played by the old-timers in my younger days

Haha RD--listen to this fretless cigarbox banjo & my friend playing a cigar box fiddle. Lots of banjo fun can be had on even an inexpensive hand made banjo :)

 

Bill Rogers - Posted - 01/18/2022:  14:40:06

MZC said in slightly different words in her first post's first paragraph, essentially what I did. So no you have two in agreement on that particular analysis.

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 01/18/2022:  15:04:24

Make it three, Bill.  Trying out different strings or a bridge is one thing.  Woodworking is another.

There have been times when I went out for an expensive dinner only to realize I'd have been just as happy, or even more happy with a Big Mac!  Great real world example Mary.  I've heard "real" banjoes and fiddles that don't sound as good.  It has more to do with *how* they're played as with anything else.  One of the features of our modern society is the unbelievable amount of choices we have these days in anything from the flavor of Doritos to the massive amount of craft beers on the shelves.  Banjoes are the same what with all of the accomplished custom makers out there.  A good thing of course, but in some ways I miss the days when you had only your Sears mail-order banjo, and you just got on with it.  Truth to tell, that mail-order banjo sounds good enough to make me wonder if the extra hundreds if not thousands of dollars are worth it... the beauty of CH/OT.

chip arnold - Posted - 01/19/2022:  08:58:57

Well, I can't add anything to Dan Gellert's or R.D's comments. But I will anyway :-)

Your Hartford is many times better than the cheap banjos you're asking about.

There is actually no law that requires you to play an open back banjo for Old Time music. In fact many of the dead guys played resonator banjos and many more would have if they could have afforded them. Stop and consider how much your Hartford resonator weighs. Very little. Make your decisions based on the sound YOU like, not what you think is convention. A good way to do this is to sit facing into a corner of your house and play. The sound you get back from the corner is the sound others hear when you play.

Edited by - chip arnold on 01/19/2022 09:01:29

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 01/19/2022:  10:45:54

Chip, your wisdom is always gratefully received, timely, and on the mark.  You are one of the true modern greats of OT.

It's easy to see why a newbie these days would get the idea that an RP derived banjo is what's required for CH/OT.  They certainly are by far the most plentiful type in the OT scene these days. As above, this has only been the case for 30 years or so.  Certain traditions, most notably RP became the model for the OT revival, both in style and a little later in the type of banjo.  RP is wonderful music and we're lucky that it's been preserved.  The point is though that you don't have to go very far back in time to see a lot more variety in OT music as far as style, repertory, instruments, and instrumentation.  That can be the failing of revivals- they tend to concentrate on a particular tradition at the expense of others which are often forgotten through having no one to champion them.  As concerns this thread, the result is that certain banjo types which were well-used in the past fall from favor, and one may be given the wrong impression that they are unacceptable, though even the smallest exposure to the music and its past practitioners will correct this immediately.

DWFII:

At this point, you really need to concentrate on learning to play, and take it from someone who cut his teeth on resonator banjoes, they serve the purpose.  Hopefully you'll stick with it and become a good player, but we all know there is the possibility that any beginner may, a little ways down the road decide that banjo or clawhammer banjo is not for her/him.  Given that, investing in more banjoes or modifications to existing banjoes this early in the game can be a waste, and actually is unnecessary.  You mentioned Ken Perlman and your interest in melodic style a little earlier, well, melodic optimally requires a different banjo and set-up than traditional old-time banjo, and actually, your Hartford would be perfect for that. 

Your Hartford is, as has been said, a really fine banjo.  If it is set up for Bluegrass, it can hold you back on learning CH.  The only necessity is that you make it playable for CH.  In general, I'd suggest medium gauge steel strings (assuming it has steel on it already) and a tall enough bridge so you have enough clearance from the head to be playable. That would likely be an 11/16" - 3/4" tall bridge. Worry about scoops and playing over the fingerboard later once you have the basics down. If taking off the resonator is easy and more comfortable, by all means do that.  Stuffing something between the coordinator rods and the head like a rag or a sock can cut the overtones and give a bit of note separation.  All easy stuff to do, and maybe all you'll ever need to do.  

Learn the basics well, expose yourself to as many different styles of OT as you can and above all, LISTEN.  Listening is the key to learning and figuring out which way you want to go musically.  Listen to Clifton Hicks, Will Keys, Ken Perlman, Dwight Diller, to see what a variety there is in OT- They're all on YouTube, and seek out the old-timers.  The County Clawhammer series is required listening, and there are tracks from it on YouTube as well.

You can get into things like different heads and strings in a year or so.  Though I play on nylon, I think steel is the best to learn on.  You have a teacher- solicit and follow his advice.

Keep us posted on your progress, and keep asking questions.

Best of Luck!

Edited by - R.D. Lunceford on 01/19/2022 11:00:58

DWFII - Posted - 01/19/2022:  11:21:57

quote:

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Originally posted by R.D. Lunceford

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You can get into things like different heads and strings in a year or so.  Though I play on nylon, I think steel is the best to learn on.  You have a teacher- solicit and follow his advice.

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I apologize if i misled anyone or if I have, or do, come across as impatient or willful. I also apologize for any offense I have, or might, give.

But, that said, it's frustrating. I may have misunderstood someone, but the admonition to "listen" seems not to apply to this thread/forum.

I have never intended to rush into anything. And I have said so, repeatedly. I have even said that I am inclined to keep this banjo as my "forever" banjo (I couldn't really afford to do anything else). I have zero intention of cutting, filing, carving my initials in the heel, or irrevocably altering this banjo. I would return it to the person who gifted it to me before I did that.

I have also said...if it matters...that I want a more personal sound...which is one reason I decide to learn CH.  A more intimate sound. I do not intend to play in a band or for public consumption. I want to play on my porch and maybe, on good days, hum along.

And probably even less significant, I have said that I didn't choose this banjo, it chose me. And in order to have a successful relationship with it I need to make it mine.

Which would be preferable...that I quit playing at all because the sound and the weight and/or even the look doesn't suit me or that I do what I can,  short of destroying it, to  get comfortable with it?

Forgive me for saying so, but tbh, I have read and paid attention to everything that has been said on this topic. There has been some good advice  and wisdom in most of it. Some obvious, some very deep, much  I didn't know, and some...  again, tbh... 'personalities' that I didn't know how to take.

Finally, I repeat, I did consult with my teacher about installing a new tailpiece and nylgut strings (and probably a bridge and nut). He said "Try it. You can always go back to the original set up. Have a Peter (a well respected local luthier) do it."

The luthier said, "Not a problem. Better to install a new nut than file it. And not that expensive."

[shrug]

Edited by - DWFII on 01/19/2022 11:33:31

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 01/19/2022:  12:41:35

quote:

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Originally posted by DWFII

I also apologize for any offense I have, or might, give.

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I haven't been offended by anything you've written...

If *I* have in some way given offense, then please accept *my* apologies.

DWFII - Posted - 01/19/2022:  13:43:50

quote:

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Originally posted by R.D. Lunceford

I haven't been offended by anything you've written...

If *I* have in some way given offense, then please accept *my* apologies.

---

No, you haven't offended me. And i recognize that most if not all that has been addressed to me has been in a spirit of generosity. And I thank everyone.

I was just feeling a bit beleagured by the accumulation of 'dismayed' remarks that I seem to have generated by looking at, inquiring about, other makers such as Pisgah. Or wondering about changing to nylgut strings.

Edited by - DWFII on 01/19/2022 13:59:25

nightingale - Posted - 01/19/2022:  22:44:58

How did your in person lesson go?

I understand what you're going through, whenever you begin a new instrument, there's a lot to learn and a learning curve that goes with it. I'm older and retired now and I also started playing banjo about 3 years ago. I understand you wanting to play clawhammer. I know the Deering Hartford is a fine instrument, but I'm more of an "old school" person who wants something similar to what the old clawhammer players played. That's why I love my Pisgah banjo - my main go to.

I have several other banjos, an old turn of the century washburn, an old 1890s Lange/sears/Wasburn knockoff I accidently won on ebay for practically nothing - oddly enough it sounds wonderful. I have a simple Goodtime which is what I started on, a Gold Tone white lady, a 1926 Vega White lady conversion and a Cedar Mountain Dobson banjo.

I pretty much know what I like now so some of them will be sold. As I said, its a learning curve.

You want a mellow clawhammer banjo. Listen to this guy. Its a Pisgah Possum:

youtube.com/watch?v=co6GCMus8Lw

I think this may be my next banjo.

I like the North Carolina builders. I like the fact they use local woods and make them following the mountain tradition.

Find yourself a nice openback banjo and enjoy your lessons and have fun!

DWFII - Posted - 01/20/2022:  06:00:56

quote:

---

Originally posted by nightingale

How did your in person lesson go?

 

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The lesson went fine...thanks for asking. I began learning with Josh Turknett on the 'Net almost two months ago. I practice at least half an hour every day, faithfully. Slow, but steady, I have come a long way.

I know this will sound over-confidant but, tbh, I think I could just continue on with those lessons (there ar four more and I spend several weeks practicing in each) and have no doubt I would make progress. This early in the game, I mostly want a person-to-person teacher to correct my  bad habits. But I got started with left hand the other day and have some exercises to work on. Next lesson is in two weeks.

Banjos are lovely things and as someone who has been an 'artisan' for his entire adult life, I admire the love and dedication and the frozen energy that is embodied in them. I like the Pisgahs too. I have worked with cherry and dogwood and walnut and rosewood and Osage orange... even ebony. I have also worked with ivory, albeit warthog tusk, when it was still available (I think that would make a good nut). But the persimmon just draws me for some strange reason. 

As for the Hartford, I am still kind of in shock. It came out of nowhere. Looking back, it was so unexpected that I am a little nervous. I couldn't afford anything near this caliber, much less multiples. And when the Hartford arrived, I was reaching (financially, at least) for the Goodtime. Probably would have been happy with it. 

Edited by - DWFII on 01/20/2022 06:10:29

apple vase thin walls (1/8" -)

top bocote bottom persimmon

ebony and Ivory Sgian Dubh

 

DWFII - Posted - 01/20/2022:  07:05:23

quote:

---

Originally posted by nightingale

You want a mellow clawhammer banjo. Listen to this guy. Its a Pisgah Possum:



youtube.com/watch?v=co6GCMus8Lw

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Yeah, that's lovely. I watched another videos of three different Pisgah banjos playing the same song (Booth Shot Lincoln) and the Possum sounded the best... to my ears.

youtube.com/watch?v=3xuvg3VNrX0

nightingale - Posted - 01/20/2022:  08:19:53

Did you make those in your pics? They're beautiful. I love the apple vase. What a beautiful wood and grain. I did a lot of wood refinishing. It was one of my first jobs and to this day I love beautiful wood and wood grain. Also, Persimmon is a member of the ebony family I believe. Woodslabs.com states it is often called white ebony. Since black ebony has become very expensive many are starting to use Persimmon. Its also grown locally in NC.

Glad your lesson went well. I use a lot of Josh's tab for songs I want to learn. Plus this forum is invaluable, it has an incredible wealth of banjo tabs. When I decided to learn clawhammer I started with "Clawhammer Banjo for the Complete Ignoramus" by Wayne Erbsen. It's for the beginner and has lots of great songs to get started on - good songs. I've worn it out and will have to get a new copy someday. Then, like you, after a month or so I got an instructor to correct any incorrect habits and nip them in the bud. Being self taught, there were some habits on the right hand to correct. Mr. Erbsen also has a more advanced 2nd book, which I also like. But the first book really started me playing songs as a beginner. You may like his book.

chip arnold - Posted - 01/20/2022:  08:34:32

DWFII
Positively beautiful woodwork. Did you make the whole knife and sheath?

Dan Gellert - Posted - 01/20/2022:  08:48:27

Great work there. The turned vase is quite reminiscent of the one on my mantel, the work of Jan Bloom, the banjo maker (who also made my two best fiddles!).

DWFII - Posted - 01/20/2022:  09:04:44

quote:

---

Originally posted by nightingale

Did you make those in your pics? They're beautiful. I love the apple vase. What a beautiful wood and grain. I did a lot of wood refinishing. It was one of my first jobs and to this day I love beautiful wood and wood grain. Also, Persimmon is a member of the ebony family I believe. Woodslabs.com states it is often called white ebony. Since black ebony has become very expensive many are starting to use Persimmon. Its also grown locally in NC.

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Yes, I made them all  (and more). Persimmon is sometimes called American Ebony but I like White Ebony better. Some parts of the wood (the heart) can be black. The handle below has a solid black area about the size of a dime.You can see the edge of it at the top. The handles have seamless conical ferrules (I didn't make those).

I have some more difficult pieces but the apple vase I'm esp. proud of--the walls are really thin (and evenly so) and apple can be quite 'fractious'--prone to checking even after it has dried for a good long time.

The Sgian Dubh...I did not make the blade . It is damascus and I sent off for it. The pommel is wart hog ivory with a small sterling silver celtic knot.  The handle is Gabon Ebony and the bolster (which is hidden) is cast pewter.  The sheath is elephant and I even made the box. One of several sgian dubhs that I made. Custom orders.

Edited by - DWFII on 01/20/2022 09:08:52

chip arnold - Posted - 01/20/2022:  12:53:18

Brilliant work. Just beautifully done.

DWFII - Posted - 01/20/2022:  13:12:30

quote:

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Originally posted by chip arnold

Brilliant work. Just beautifully done.

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Thanks.

I'll quit now. xD

Osage Orange candlesticks

maple hollow forme

sgian dubh

 

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 01/20/2022:  18:18:16

Cool.  On my place in the Ozarks, we had Osage Orange.  Great for fence posts- impervious to rot.  I even have a banjo bridge topped off with it.

The little town east of us was Bois d'Arc  (locally pronounced "bow-dark") The French name for Osage Orange- the Indians used the wood for their bows and canoes.

In Bois d'Arc the streets had no names and when the postman retired there was a difficulty as the new postman didn't know where everyone lived-  but I digress.