I've had a lot of students show up with ones just like that, and thereby learned a whole lot about how to get those cheapo Chinese banjeroids playing easily and sounding OK.
Once you get them set up, they make perfectly good starter instruments... and once you've graduated to something better it's still nice to have a banjo around that is light weight and you don't mind taking somewhere it might get knocked around some.
Yep. Extra paddle, strings to hold up a dragging muffler, bar fight, "your honor I can bring in 10 neighbors who will say I was home playing my banjo at the time of the murder," planter pot, zombie basher - everybody needs that extra banjo...banjered
Sure, it's good to have some pride in one's banjo, no matter how crappy it might be, but Collins should at least be telling people that loose necks can be fixed (particularly one like he shows-you just tighten that nut inside) and that sagging bridges can be replaced, and even though those are cheap hooks, they can still be used to tighten the head head a bit. To me, there is just no sense in telling a person to be proud of an instrument which can actually be set-up properly with very little effort and almost no exttra money. He should tell people to check the Banjo Hangout for some set-up tips for improving that "worst banjo" to at least the "second worst."
Seek out the YouTube videos of Hangout member Hunter Robertson, a wonderful player. Most of them feature an old Harmony Reso-tone, a classic cheap starter banjo. Hunter’s makeover and setup yielded a fine old-time instrument. His talent makes the most of it.
My first attempt to learn banjo 6 years or so ago was on a cheap bottlecap banjo. I was attempting to learn scruggs[I didn't know any better] based on a 'first lessons banjo' book.
I think I progressed ok through the book getting to the stage after about three months to a basic cripple creek(the last tune in the very thin book), but in the end I gave up on the banjo and sold it as it just sounded so shrill and tinny.(even without picks).
Had I had even a basic 'step up ' banjo I might now be a 6 year picker instead of a 6 month.
So, much as I enjoy Tom Collins videos, and whilst a half decent player could have coaxed a decent tune out of my crappy banjo, and whilst a good instructor could have altered its tone and playability a bit.
A crappy banjo can easily become a cupboard/attic banjo.
My early learning experience was greatly helped by having a banjo (a cheap Fender like in the video) that I was able to leave in my trunk and play during my lunch break.
I love Tom’s videos, and this one really cracked me up.
A few weeks back I put some effort into setting up the fender bottlecap I learned on to use as a campfire banjo this summer. It is playable now, but it is still a crappy banjo.
I think the most important thing about a low end entry level banjo is to use it only to figure out if you like playing the banjo. Move on as soon as you can. If you hang on to one of these things for too long, it could end up hampering your progress instead of advancing it. Maybe even make you walk away from the banjo altogether like @AndyW’s account.
There are so many decent instruments around the +/- $500 mark, so there is no need to go hungry just to upgrade a banjo.
This vid is an enjoyable reminder of one of Poor Richard's most instructive apothegms: It's a poor workman who blames his tools.
My own musical journey started at age 14 with a gawdawful, torture-your-fingers guitar. Many of us started with beater instruments; these usually served to separate the merely interested learners from the compulsive. For those who struggled against and overcame the barriers inherent in the cheapos, acquiring their first "good" instrument often revealed rewards of greatly added value. Thanks for posting.
>A crappy banjo can easily become a cupboard/attic banjo.<
Exactly.
I've many times, face-to-face, seen crappy banjos made to sound fabulous in experienced players hands. The real practical question is whether the experienced player would have gained that experience to perform his or her party trick if all they ever had access to was a poorly-made and poorly maintained banjo from the outset? My guess is that the cupboard/attic effect would have kicked-in and derailed that progression to skill and experience.
How often on BHO do we discuss people stereotyping and doing down banjo players? The counter to that is not party-trickery it is being as smart and respectful of our craft and instrument (and it's builders) as musicians who play other instruments.
That's not at all a vote for name/brand snobbery or silly-money banjos. Beyond a certain, fairly modest, cost point there is no gain in playability anyway. It's a vote for the simple, positive benefits of pride, playability and quality.
edit: there is of course good reason for helping someone to get the best out of the basic banjo they currently own. And for doing-up basic banjos (and sometimes donating them) for beginners who wouldn't otherwise be able to afford one. That is to be applauded and supported, but it is quite different from any idea that a crappy banjo is going to help a budding musician stick with it through the - by definition - more difficult and often frustrating early learning phase. Hours on the clock - structured playing time - is what really counts. So an intelligent approach that keeps a banjo out of the cupboard/attic and in the beginner's hands is the first requirement for what will be effective. Of course there are plenty of other requirements too, but they don't even begin to have a chance of bearing fruit if the banjo is in the closet.
sagging bridges can be replaced, and even though those are cheap hooks, they can still be used to tighten the head head a bit
The heads can be tightened a bit for sure BUT, when doing so the bridge gets pushed upwards by the head making the action pretty much unplayable. Keep in mind that most of those OEM bridges are only a 1/2" tall to start with so going with a lower bridge to lower the higher action back down is not that attractive an option...
I just spotted a banjo for sale on Kijiji, my first banjo in the 70ies, was the openback version of this same Raven banjo pictured here. Well, minus the huge crack in the heel that mine had. The action was grossly high, it was real hard to play but wow, I had a blast of a time with it
That looks exactly like the first banjo I ever had. Was an Asian import I bought new for $125 and trying to get that thing to play and sound good was my first step toward building banjos. I didn't keep that one very long, moved up to a bottom of the line Gold Tone.
Now I build pretty good banjos, so haven't bought one in a long time.
Tom Collins really shows that it is the "archer not the bow" to quote something R.D. has said once or twice.
To me the message is that you can do pretty well with a cheap banjo. If you don't have the $$$ for a more expensive instrument, have no fear, you can still get some pretty good sounds out of a "junker".
I agree that you should have whatever instrument you own set up to its maximum playability, and I don't think Tom was saying you shouldn't. He was just showing the extreme.
The other message is that CH can sound OK on a cheap instrument and that's one of the nice things about it. BG is a different story.
If it wasn't for crappy but infinitely tweakable cheapo banjos, I might not have got into instrument repair and construction, which is now one of my main interests.
It's lovely to have a really nice quality instrument, but if it ends up being something you feel you have to treat with kid gloves because it's so valuable, then that can be just another barrier to really getting to know your instrument inside out in the way that will really let you get the best out of it.
sagging bridges can be replaced, and even though those are cheap hooks, they can still be used to tighten the head head a bit
The heads can be tightened a bit for sure BUT, when doing so the bridge gets pushed upwards by the head making the action pretty much unplayable. Keep in mind that most of those OEM bridges are only a 1/2" tall to start with so going with a lower bridge to lower the higher action back down is not that attractive an option...
I just spotted a banjo for sale on Kijiji, my first banjo in the 70ies, was the openback version of this same Raven banjo pictured here. Well, minus the huge crack in the heel that mine had. The action was grossly high, it was real hard to play but wow, I had a blast of a time with it
My point, in case I didn't make it amply clear, is that I fault the video for not telling students that although a banjo might be bad (and many are) he should also be encouraging students to improve those crummy instruments when they can. Being "proud" is sometimes a mere invitation to keep on suffering when a person might not have to.
I have worked on some really lousy instruments. It's amazing what a few simple and inexpensive tweaks can do, and it's a pleasure when a beginner says how much better his banjo plays than it did when he first got it..
My first banjo was an Iida bottlecap that I "bought" for 50 bucks from a friend for gas money to get to Arizona. Gas back then was under a dollar a gallon. It was my mess around with the set up banjo for years. Couple years back my wife made me lend it to a friend who needed it for a brief stage prop. As I handed him the banjo I got a vision of the banjo falling off the stand and snapping the neck, and so it was. That was the end of my drop kick through the goal posts of life banjo but I did learn a few things about what to do, and not do, with a banjo regarding set up and tone. Every backyard banjo gorilla craftsman should have such a banjo.... banjered
To me the message is that you can do pretty well with a cheap banjo.
If you don't have the $$$ for a more expensive instrument, have no fear,
you can still get some pretty good sounds out of a "junker".
I agree that you should have whatever instrument you own set up to its maximum
playability, and I don't think Tom was saying you shouldn't. He was just showing the extreme.
The other message is that CH can sound OK on a cheap instrument and that's one of the nice
things about it. BG is a different story.
The fact I was learning Scruggs picking as opposed to clawhammer on my crappy banjo might have had something to do with giving up. I did most of my playing without picks though in order to limit the tinnyness, so I'm not so sure. I tuned one of my guitars to open g for a while after, and played away at cripple creek on that(amongst other stuff) and enjoyed playing it. It was definitely the sound of that cheap banjo that made me quit it.
Crappy low end guitars are exactly the same. Just a small step up makes a world of difference.
My first banjo was an Iida bottlecap that I "bought" for 50 bucks from a friend for gas money to get to Arizona. Gas back then was under a dollar a gallon. It was my mess around with the set up banjo for years. Couple years back my wife made me lend it to a friend who needed it for a brief stage prop. As I handed him the banjo I got a vision of the banjo falling off the stand and snapping the neck, and so it was. That was the end of my drop kick through the goal posts of life banjo but I did learn a few things about what to do, and not do, with a banjo regarding set up and tone. Every backyard banjo gorilla craftsman should have such a banjo.... banjered
This time round I have bought a 'beater banjo' 1920's job to play around with. So far it's been completely dissassembled and has a new skin head. It's saved my curiousity making me mess around with my 'proper' banjo too much.
To me, Jim E.'s "Poor Richard" statement, says it all! About most any endeavor! I'm gonna hang that on a wall in my little "picking space" and in my shop. thank you
My go-to response; never more true: "Instruments don't make music; people make music."
Sure. People make music. I agree.
But crappy stuff can and does get in the way of making music. A recent personal example is my purchase of a 1920's banjo with the original friction tuners. Great banjo; except the friction tuners - even for an experienced banjo nut like me - they were a PIA and made a quality banjo totally impractical to play. No taking apart, tweeking or tightening helped. So I put a set of Gotohs on and fixed the playability issue. Would the casual give-it-a try-see how-I get-on banjo beginner be bothered to do that? Some would; by far the majority wouldn't and an otherwise nice banjo would end up in the closet and there goes another curious potential musician and picker to wander off to other instruments or worse...be disillusioned into not trying any at all simply because the banjo reinforced a false sense of 'can't'.
Enable. And support. Then those people can make their music.
ps - I admire Tom's pickin' and the banjo teaching work he does to support learning. This is not a dig at him at all. It's a heartfelt wider point in regard to complacency or dismissiveness about unecessarily crappy instruments that impede progress and enjoyment for those new to the banjo.
One of the worst banjo players I've ever heard (who I shall not name here) is the wife of a top notch well known builder, and of course, plays one of his high-end instruments. Kind of amusing.
One of the worst banjo players I've ever heard (who I shall not name here) is the wife of a top notch well known builder, and of course, plays one of his high-end instruments. Kind of amusing.
I'm pretty sure that Tom would advise setting up any banjo to it's maximum playability potential, but that wasn't the point I think he was trying to make.
Sure he could have shown how to tighten the neck and head, and maybe put on a different bridge and tailpiece, change out strings, and maybe even recommend a brand of banjo polish, but it wasn't a "How to set up your crummy banjo video". He was demonstrating that even the worst banjo can be used to produce music. His playing on a poorly set up instrument added a touch of humor and drove his point home.
You don't need an expensive designer banjo to play this music, even cheaper instruments are sufficient. Of course it's nice to have a well-made, beautiful instrument that might even sound better than a $100 beater, but if you're a beginner, or don't have the funds it shouldn't stop you. I played a Harmony bakelite special my first five years.
For any folks out there that need help setting up a poor banjo, head on over to the "Banjo Building, Set-up, and Repair" forum, there's plenty of help over there.
It wouldn't be a bad idea to listen to his "Best Banjo I Ever Played", too.
It would be a good idea... thanks rudy.
What Tom says about inspiration is invaluable. Rudy is right- these videos should be viewed together. Tom really put's the whole issue in perspective.
The other thing that occurs to me is that certain styles and personal styles require different instruments. For example, a melodic CHer will have different requirements for his instrument than a raucous knock-down player might. Where someone might find that a cheap banjo fills the bill long-term, another player may need a banjo with an expensive tone-ring and a fast neck, which may necessarily require a bigger investment.
Another good point that Tom makes is how the capabilities of an instrument can mold one's style and repertoire vis-a-vis his harmonics revelation in the second video.
A good banjo is a banjo that plays and sounds good. I have a Deering that I don't like and a $100 Saga kit that is my favorite. The Saga has been with me since the early 1970s. RDL and DG are right. The banjo can be brought to more than reasonable playing shape. The banjo is the cheapest and easiest to make stringed instrument, period. Some are real pretty. Some are very old. I've never felt deprived because haven't spent thousands on a banjo. This is all too silly!
I saw that worst banjo video a while back and my first thought was that maybe Tom would have to re-rank that fender to second worst if he tried mine.
My first guitar was a mail order Montgomery Ward or Sears guitar shaped thing with heavy gauge strings about 1/2 inch above a club of a neck when I was about 12. My grandparents bought it for me for Christmas, along with a book that had a chord chart and a few songs. I gave up after a few weeks when my fingers just wouldn't seem to make the chords and I really wasn't sure how to tune it, so into the closet it went. When I was in college my room mate played guitar so I brought it back after a weekend home. He looked it over, laughed at it a little, then we went to the music store. I got some extra-light strings, and he strung it up and lowered the action. He had me playing a little rhythm with him in a few days.
I hadn't seen that Best Banjo video rudy shared before, but it was great. I think for me, I get a more satisfaction playing a banjo I built myself than a better expensive instrument. Maybe I'm just used to mine. I really got a kick out of that Smithsonian video where the guy has Tommy Jarrell play a Stradivarius.
I think the barely entry level instruments have their place in the world. My dad told me a story the other day about my great uncle who was a fiddle player. He said he built his first fiddle out of a gourd (sure would like to see that). He wanted an upgrade so he set out to earn a "seed fiddle". Apparently there was a company that sold garden seeds, and anyone could be a salesman and earn rewards such as a fiddle. So young Uncle Homer peddled the seeds all over the countryside and earned his fiddle. Walked to the post office every day waiting for it to come in. When it finally did it had come completely apart and was just a box of pieces. I only remember him as an hard-of-hearing old man with a hand tremor who would only get out his fiddle out if pressed and would only play a song or 2 once through, but in his day he was known as the finest fiddler around.
I'm guilty of buying $2-$3 kid sized guitars out of the toy section at Goodwill and parting them out to build my junk-folk instruments. The little Disney themed First Act plastic guitars have steel geared tuning machines that with a little tweaking are better than the cheapos I can get for $8 off Amazon. Sometimes I worry that maybe the next kid who walked into Goodwill would have picked up that guitar, and because it wasn't there anymore... the world missed out on the next Jimmy Hendrix.
I just spotted a banjo for sale on Kijiji, my first banjo in the 70ies, was the openback version of this same Raven banjo pictured here. Well, minus the huge crack in the heel that mine had. The action was grossly high, it was real hard to play but wow, I had a blast of a time with it
Same banjo as my first - ab open back, non-bottlecap called a "Lero", it cost me $75. This guy's charging $250!
As long as it can be set up with good action and string spacing, you can use it well. Tonight I played my Silvertone I got from an antique dealer for $50. The dealer sold it to some guy who returned it because he couldn't make it playable. It's playable now.
There's a book called "My First Guitar", wherein famous, expert pickers tell what they started on. Almost all of them began on really crappy instruments. A dedicated player will overcome (and eventually replace) a bad instrument. As someone said of a pilot, "Give him a shingle and an outboard motor and he'll do slow rolls for you."
There's a book called "My First Guitar", wherein famous, expert pickers tell what they started on. Almost all of them began on really crappy instruments. A dedicated player will overcome (and eventually replace) a bad instrument.
Yeah, and in my case I didn't know the difference. I developed a feel for my "crummy" banjo. So much so that when I got a good instrument I initially had some difficulty. It played so easy that I overdid everything.
Kind of like going from a car with no power steering or brakes to one with. I'd over-steer and throw myself through the windshield (no seat belts in those days) if I even thought about touching the brakes.
One of the worst banjo players I've ever heard (who I shall not name here) is the wife of a top notch well known builder, and of course, plays one of his high-end instruments. Kind of amusing.
My wife does the best she can, but plays fiddle a lot better than banjo.
I've been playing for just under a year. I bought a bottlecap banjo and played that until February this year.
I found a banjo shop in Camden, bought a crappy cheapo rim which someone had made a cocobolo tone ring for. Bit of hardware, renaissance head, etc.
I took off the pot assembly of the bottle cap, cut the heel of the neck which had zero angle on it and stuck it on the new pot... I absolutely love the sound I get out of it now!
Because it's made of random crap parts I'm not precious about it so I sling it on my back and throw it about everywhere. I like it so much that I've decided it's my 'standard' banjo and changed the spec of one I'm having made to be partial fretted and six-string.
Don't think I'll be buying another full fret normal scale banjo anytime soon!
Thanks so much to RD for posting this! It's really a very interesting discussion. I love hearing about all of these awful instruments people have had to work with. Some of these stories are just hysterical.
As to the setup issue: on this particular instrument, I'm really skeptical as to how far setup tweaks could take you. The real issue is that the head can't hold any tension on account of the underbuilt hardware. A different bridge would just sag all the deeper. The screw is frozen in the neck, so there's no tightening it without risking shearing it off.
This banjo really is stuck in a permanent state of decrapitude. Which makes it special.
I see so many of these instruments walk through my door. All of them have a low-rent charm to them that reminds me of one of the reasons I picked up banjo in the first place: DIY, bootstrap pullin', banjo slappin', devil-may-care music making.
Just to be clear: I don't recommend these instruments to students! They make learning harder. But some folks don't have the means to purchase something new, so I made this video to encourage them in particular. Almost any banjo is useable to some degree. If it's not, some duct tape can make it so!
I actually shot the "Best Banjo Ever" video first, and while editing I realized that making a video about this very expensive banjo felt incredibly privileged and .... well .... douchey. So I examined my deepest feelings about the state of banjo-dom, and I realized how vital a role these crappy banjos play. They are more important than the boutique instruments, and deserved a video all their own.
