FlyinEagle - Posted - 11/27/2017:  06:40:15

I read about this study published last week that was focused on classical musicians and the noise they are exposed to in orchestral settings.

sciencedaily.com/releases/2017...93033.htm Basically, the study found that efforts that orchestras have taken in recent years to protect the hearing of the players – such as glass screens between sections and risers placing instruments on different tiers – have little to no effect because the players own instrument is what is causing the most damage. This got me thinking about how loud my banjos are…if a violin is putting out 90 decibels, what is my banjo doing? As a banjo player, does hearing damage concern you? Do any of you practice with ear plugs like the study recommends? Or worse, do any of you think that playing banjo has caused damage to your ears?">sciencedaily.com/releases/2017...93033.htm

Basically, the study found that efforts that orchestras have taken in recent years to protect the hearing of the players – such as glass screens between sections and risers placing instruments on different tiers – have little to no effect because the players own instrument is what is causing the most damage.   

I already have tinnitus, so this article really got me thinking about how loud my banjos are…if a violin is putting out 90 decibels, exactly how many decibels is my banjo cranking out? 

As a banjo player, do you ever think about hearing damage?

Does it concern you enough to practice with ear plugs like the study recommends?

Or worse, do any of you think that playing the banjo has already caused damage to your ears?

budbennett - Posted - 11/27/2017:  06:52:02

I frequently and definitely think my banjo playing has damaged my ears. In the past year my tinnitus seems to be much worse and it is becoming a real concern of mine. I have lately been sure to position the banjo and my head so that my head is behind the banjo as much as possible to reduce the sound to my ears.

banjoez - Posted - 11/27/2017:  06:58:39

What did you say??

revellfa - Posted - 11/27/2017:  07:15:42

quote:

---

Originally posted by budbennett

I frequently and definitely think my banjo playing has damaged my ears. In the past year my tinnitus seems to be much worse and it is becoming a real concern of mine. I have lately been sure to position the banjo and my head so that my head is behind the banjo as much as possible to reduce the sound to my ears.

---

What Bud said.  I'm there too and I'm only 39 years old.

Lately I've moved to banjos that aren't as loud like my 1923 TB-3 conversion with Ball Bearing Tone ring.  These days I'm more of a tone guy than a volume guy.  

warpdrive - Posted - 11/27/2017:  07:33:27

jeff,
I'm right there with you, my tinnitus is driving me mad(seriously).
Besides being exposed to instruments and music at an early age, and taking up the banjo at 13, i did noisy factory work, went into the army and was a field artillery cannon crewman on 155mm m109a/2 self propelled howitzer's for 4 years.
while in the army i developed a love for shotguns and handguns, especially handguns.
More factory work after the army, more hand gunning, and while in business as a private contractor for Airborne Express(what you know as DHL) i would guide DC-9's and 727's bringing our freight in Wichita Ks early of the mornings, maybe the loudest noise even with hearing protection you'll ever encounter.
Hit the road for 9 or 10 years work festivals and venue's listing to Bluegrass through festival speakers and stage monitors, go back to factory work, and then CDL Class A truck driving, still hand gunning, and now, i'm seriously paying for it!

On a scale of 1-10, i wake daily with my ears ringing at a 7 or 8, and depending on how much ibuprofen i take that day for arthritis i can easily go to a 9 or 10 with the ringing, there is no relief, there is no cure.
I have 2 hearing aids, they suck! The only make background noise louder, and i have taken myself out of public environments where there is a lot of noise, coffee shops, bars, crowds of people.
I can only carry on conversion with one or two people at a time, and they must be in close and if they talk at the same time, i won't understand either one of them.

jam sessions are a real pain, and of course i can hear my banjo, but if the rest of the instruments can't really bear down on it, it all goes to hell quick!
The sad thing is i still enjoy my banjo, and i want to play more, but my ears just won't let me enjoy it much, i get a good day in every now and then, but not many!

TO ALL YOU BANJO LOVERS AND MUSICIANS,"TAKE CARE OF YOUR EARS"
Warp!

banjoez - Posted - 11/27/2017:  07:40:10

If I have to wear ear plugs while playing my acoustic banjo then I might as well take up knitting. There are lots of other things that are way more dangerous to your hearing than a banjo. The reason anyone takes up an instrument is because they enjoy the sound. There are risks with anything.

Edited by - banjoez on 11/27/2017 07:42:11

Richard Hauser - Posted - 11/27/2017:  07:50:29

The banjo directs sound away from the player. And, the banjo does not produce extremely high frequency sound like a fiddle/violin. Low frequency sounds are not that low either. Your "weed whacker" and power tools will probably cause more hearing loss than a banjo. Listening to music played at high volume levels doesn't help either. Don't forget, in a symphony a person is surrounded by a large number of instruments, in a room designed to create sound volume. And some instruments produce potentially ear damaging sound frequencies.

Generally speaking, we are living in an environment that can cause hearing loss. Loud damaging sounds all around us. A person would think that with our high technological development, things would become quieter. But to my ear, things are getting louder. How do you like the volume on those TV commercials ?

FlyinEagle - Posted - 11/27/2017:  07:57:32

Yup. Tinnitus is really scary. I’m 37 and I can’t fall asleep without the TV on for some white noise because it makes it so I don’t notice the ringing.

It is odd that I have not thought about this before, because I am much more protective of my hearing because of the tinnitus. I don’t go to (many) rock concerts any more, I always use ear plugs with power tools, and I would never dream of firing a gun without protection like I did when I was young.

Yet, without hesitation I’ll strap on my banjo and let ‘er rip for an hour straight.

I just found a free sound meter app for my phone. Maybe I’ll take some measurements tonight both in front of and behind the resonator to get a rough idea of how loud my banjo is.

Richard Hauser - Posted - 11/27/2017:  07:59:58

I don't think a banjo is hazardous to hearing. It does not produce extremely high or low sound frequencies. And, it is designed to direct sound away from the player. I think things like power tools, listening to overly loud music, etc.. is more likely to damage hearing than playing a banjo. Our environment contains harmful noises, but we ignore them.

One other thing. Don't forget the aging process. Eventually, and for various environmental and physical reasons, most people have their audio and visual abilities diminish. I am beginning to think it may happen with taste as well. Something has to be happening to my taste buds or the quality of food.

Cornflake - Posted - 11/27/2017:  08:01:56

I have used hearing protectors for many years because of the possibility of hearing loss and because I find that the loud banjo irritates and distracts me. It doesn't help that I practice in a small room with my Stellings, but even in the outdoors I use plugs or earmuffs. Just recently I started using silicone putty plugs. Yes, it's an additional pain but well worth it IMO.

chas5131 - Posted - 11/27/2017:  08:14:57

Have hearing damage from multiple sources.
Bought a decibel meter from Amazon.
I now stuff the banjo and/or add a Gold Tone mute when playing alone.
When playing the fiddle I put a plug in my left ear. Many violinists and fiddlers lose their hearing in the ear closest to the violin.
Already have hearing trouble. Bad hearing is very alienating.

Texican65 - Posted - 11/27/2017:  09:29:09

I’m another young bozo with hearing loss and tinnitus at 35 years of age. 8 years in an engine room on submarines right out of high school, little to no hearing protection offered or even available. Now 10 years for the railroad...heavy hearing protection everyday...nonstop ringing day and night. The only break from the monotonous drone is my banjo playing.

olhoss18 - Posted - 11/27/2017:  09:35:02

I noticed up until this year when playing on stage I was getting ear fatigue. Switched to in ear monitors, not playing as hard because you can hear and not only that you don’t need to run the volume as loud as the guy beside with floor wedges for monitors. As for jamming I still go with the same approach play as hard as needed. With my day job as an auto technician I don’t do anything with loud noise for extended intervals without my ear buds. It helps tremendously!

banjo bill-e - Posted - 11/27/2017:  10:09:11

Banjo did not cause my tinnitus, for that I can blame electric guitar and listening to loud headphones. It is manageable now, and most days I can just ignore it. But a Recording King I briefly owned had the loudest brightest fifth string that I have ever heard, and playing that banjo left me with my worst symptoms buzzing away for hours. So I cannot say that a loud banjo would cause tinnitus but can say that it may be an irritating factor for those who suffer from it.

TUT 1 - Posted - 11/27/2017:  10:13:01

I too have hearing loss , I worked in loud chemical plants for 33 years. I have measured the decibel level of my banjos , and they read about 90 , which is a concern if continued for many hours . I have tried several things to help preserve hearing . 1. Play with earplugs half the time 2. shorten non earplug sessions to max of 30-45 minutes ( give the ears a rest ) 3. Play softer which cuts decibels about 15 4. muting the banjo which cuts decibel rating about 30 decibels . Its a shame we have to change the sound of these beautiful banjos to our ears , but this is what we have to do to preserve that beautiful sound for our hearing!

Brooklynbanjoboy - Posted - 11/27/2017:  11:06:39

Here's a new one for you - possibly: My tinnitus came about as the result of a cortisone shot I got for a back spasm, perhaps about 6 months ago. I did not make the connection, but when I went to have my hearing tested after the tinnitus came on - and to me, it's having an old fashioned radiator hissing in my brain 24 hours a day - the ear doctor did, pointing out the pretty rare onset of tinnitus as the result of cortisone treatment. So, to all you banjo players confessing to tinnitus, I'd say "I hear you" except that now, the chances of that are pretty diminished . . .

Texasbanjo - Posted - 11/27/2017:  11:16:20

I guess each person is different.  I've been playing banjo for over 25 years now and I have no hearing loss.  (Yes,  I've been tested)  I've played at festivals on stage, I've jammed in big and little jams and so far, no hearing loss.  

I wonder if any of you men work at jobs where there is noise:  carpenter, airline pilot, mechanic, factory worker, etc.  That might cause hearing loss more than playing the banjo. 

pickin_fool - Posted - 11/27/2017:  11:28:16

"Does it concern you enough to practice with ear plugs like the study recommends?"...


no..but others seem to benefit from ear plugs when i practise..hehe...
seriously..a banjo by iyself isnt likely to generate enough volume on its own to damage your ears..i think most importantly its the quality or tonal characteristics of the sound that does the damage..sounds like sustained screeching or a bang are likely to do damage at a lower decibel than music..
having said that if you happen to be playing in an amplified venue where you have the sound system itself and monitors blasting back at you,,,ear plugs wouldnt hurt...living room playing or informal jam sessions tho..dont sweat it..my hearing is damaged..from pounding 1/4" rivets into the aluminum side panels of rail cars..the ministry of labor did a decibel check one day...126 decibels at the gun...if you were silly enough not to use hearing protection the noise was literally painful...

bluenote23 - Posted - 11/27/2017:  11:42:40

As a young man I played keyboards in rock bands with my right ear facing the amp speakers.

Many, many years later I developed tinnitus in my right ear but not my left. I stopped playing loud music and listening to loud playback on headphones. I kind of stopped playing.

I took vitamins, b6, b12 and zinc (NOT multivitamens) religiously for three or four years and then the tinnitus stopped (I can't say for sure that it stopped 100% but the severity of the symptoms were reduced radically, I mean really radically).

If I play the banjo for very long (like 30 minutes) without a plug in my right ear, I'll start to feel a tingling in my ear so I always play with one ear plugged.

I don't think I could go to a rock concert anymore and feel comfortable. I tape over the f-holes in my violin. It's the very bright, high frequency sound that affect my ear.

It's a drag but if you've ever had tinnitus and then didn't have it anymore, I think you'd probably do just about anything to not have it back again.

Bart Veerman - Posted - 11/27/2017:  11:52:15

The average resonator banjo with a decent tone ring is capable of cranking out volume levels in the 92~98 dBA range. Here are some volume measurement numbers I took a while ago and pay particular attention to the B2E numbers:

banjobridge.com/volumechart.htm

Keep in mind that:

• it is mandatory for employers to make workers wear hearing protection when volume levels in the workplace exceed 85 dBA.


• hearing damage is accumulative, it could take years for it to add up to hearing loss

So, unlike others have suggested: yes, banjos are definitely capable of causing hearing damage.

Hint: if your ears are buzzing, or ringing, during or after a workout on your banjo then definitely consider using hearing protection. I use musicians custom hearing plugs myself and really like what they do for me.

If tinnitus is an issue for you then do check out the articles I wrote on how to cope with it:

haruteq.com/tin-02.htm

budbennett - Posted - 11/27/2017:  12:00:47

quote:

---

Originally posted by Texasbanjo

I guess each person is different.  I've been playing banjo for over 25 years now and I have no hearing loss.  (Yes,  I've been tested)  I've played at festivals on stage, I've jammed in big and little jams and so far, no hearing loss.  

I wonder if any of you men work at jobs where there is noise:  carpenter, airline pilot, mechanic, factory worker, etc.  That might cause hearing loss more than playing the banjo. 

---

Me, I have worked in a library since 1987.  So, no.   I do use a chainsaw a few times a year to cut firewood and always use earplugs.  I do also use a lawnmower and roto-tiller etc but the tinnitus is a new thing.  My wife complains a lot about the volume of one of my 5 string banjos and 1 of my tenor banjos.  She said when I play those, she can hear it all through the house including in the back bedroom so I suspect that those two banjos are my problem.  One of them I have had only since June 2015 and since this issue is relatively new I am not discounting the possibility that that tenor banjo might be a good part of the cause.  Of course i could be very wrong- it has been known to happen.  

Dave1climber - Posted - 11/27/2017:  12:06:05

Bart Veerman
Thanks for the post and the link to your sound test of different bridges.
Dave

warpdrive - Posted - 11/27/2017:  12:28:05

I don't think my banjo by itself would have a lot to do with my deafness and ringing of the ears.
I'm quite sure the cannon and gun fire, and lifestyle choices along with a few good shots to the ears and infections have had the biggest part in my hearing demise!

Quite honestly, even though i'm still built like a bulldozer, i'm really feeling the weight of the banjo around my neck these days, and all down my back, couple that with my hearing problems, i may have to get one of you guys to sigh on as my living will guardian, and just before i start to have to go to a home, sneak up behind me with a large caliber pistol and send me a packing!
Of course i'm sort of kind of joking, I think? but so far, this getting on in years is really been sucking here lately, and i ain't that old yet, i can't imagine what it will be like in 20 years!
I'm seriously thinking about learning sigh language, but i don't know how that will help with my banjo, but i guess it would improve my singing!
Warp!

FlyinEagle - Posted - 11/27/2017:  12:39:08

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bart Veerman

The average resonator banjo with a decent tone ring is capable of cranking out volume levels in the 92~98 dBA range. Here are some volume measurement numbers I took a while ago and pay particular attention to the B2E numbers:

banjobridge.com/volumechart.htm

Keep in mind that:

• it is mandatory for employers to make workers wear hearing protection when volume levels in the workplace exceed 85 dBA.


• hearing damage is accumulative, it could take years for it to add up to hearing loss

So, unlike others have suggested: yes, banjos are definitely capable of causing hearing damage.

Hint: if your ears are buzzing, or ringing, during or after a workout on your banjo then definitely consider using hearing protection. I use musicians custom hearing plugs myself and really like what they do for me.

If tinnitus is an issue for you then do check out the articles I wrote on how to cope with it:

haruteq.com/tin-02.htm

 

 

---

Bart, thank you kindly for posting this data  

And your experiences with tinnitus, to top it all off.   

Talk about a relevant post!

banjered - Posted - 11/27/2017:  14:16:54

As a chiropractor I am finding more and more people getting tinnitus from excessive wi-fi (microwave)exposure (along with headaches, agitation/irritability, insomnia etc.). I bought a meter and go to people homes and measure how much wi-fi/microwave they are getting. 20 years ago microwave wasn't a daily occurence and now it is everywhere. Minimize your cell phone use (especially keep it out of sleeping areas), replace cordless phones with land lines. get rid of your wireless wi-fi and go corded, don't accept a "smart" or "R.F." meter from the electric or other utility companies, watch out for "security" systems, baby monitors that use wi-fi. More info at my website stopsmartmetersoregon.com banjered

Richard Hauser - Posted - 11/27/2017:  14:24:31

I am not sure if sound plugs designed specifically for musicians reduce volume. I do know they are designed to eliminate potentially damaging frequencies. Using mutes on instruments can eliminate, to a certain degree, unpleasant sounds you have made. So you think your playing is better than it really is. That is why lots of fiddlers use those little wire mutes. Not to reduce volume as much as to not make their mistakes less obvious.

When playing fiddle, I use a musicians earplug in the ear closest to the fiddle. When playing alone, fiddlers should use an earplug.

pickin_fool - Posted - 11/27/2017:  15:35:02

RE the survey on banjo volume...if the govt gets wind of this will banjos have to come with a warning from the surgeon general?...

also can musicians that have hearing damage be entitled to workers comp or collect a disability cheque?...the figures quoted may or may not be correct but assuming they are,,,i would think that the drop in volume due to the nature of a banjo note would drop exponentially..that 92 decibels at the source will not be anywhere near that by the time it hits your ear

RioStat - Posted - 11/27/2017:  18:57:06

I wonder if Earl, or Ralph, or JD, or Sonny, or Doug Dillard, or Don Stover, et al.. ever worried about stuff like this...?

And just because I'm not a total smart-a**, I wonder if any of them had hearing loss or suffered from tinnitus.....

Edited by - RioStat on 11/27/2017 18:57:36

mdthib - Posted - 11/27/2017:  19:31:21

I think that an acoustic banjo is not likely to be a primary culprit in hearing loss. Maybe the banjo in certain contexts could be a culprit: playing with others, playing in loud venues with amplifiers, or maybe playing loud (bluegrass/picks/resonator) in a very small room with hard walls.

Classical musicians include brass players, whose heads vibrate with the instrument, which is also quite loud. And classical players at high levels often practice in small practice rooms for years—which is likely a primary source of exposure.

Tron - Posted - 11/28/2017:  00:45:30

Take it for what it's worth but this cured my tinnitus. Very effective, but you won't have a pill prescribing mainstream doctor help you with this protocol. youtu.be/uE8lXfstJyc

budbennett - Posted - 11/28/2017:  06:50:38

I think part of this has to do with practice posture. As in, if a person is lying back on the couch or a chair and the banjo is kind of propped on the stomach pointing more or less UP, then that is a way different amount of sound hitting the person's ears than if the person is standing with the banjo hanging from a strap and pointing OUT.

I know I nagged my son into practicing with proper positions when he was playing mandolin and I to use proper position when I practice but I frequently notice I have slumped back on the couch or chair if I practice a long while. In those instances I notice my ears ring more than usual too.

Of course, as seems to happen frequently when I post something, I am sure that everyone is going to chime in and say that they use proper positioning when they practice or some such to negate what I am saying, and I am not going to argue the point- just pointing out an observation. Just think about that a little bit in terms of sound volume and ears for those of us with the delightful and never-ending ringing in our ears.

csacwp - Posted - 11/28/2017:  10:25:56

I had my nylon strung classic style banjos measured with a good decibel meter and they routinely break the 120 db mark. One (a 12” Tubaphone) can get up to 130 db when played hard.

pickin_fool - Posted - 11/28/2017:  11:42:16

I am gonna hafta call you on 130 decibels from nylon strings on an open back...obviously your equipment wasn't calibrated...
a train engines air horn produces 150 decibels...when I riveted street car side panels the decibel reading was 126..recorded by the ministry of labor

RB3WREATH - Posted - 11/28/2017:  12:18:54

quote:

---

Originally posted by warpdrive

jeff,

I'm right there with you, my tinnitus is driving me mad(seriously).

Besides being exposed to instruments and music at an early age, and taking up the banjo at 13, i did noisy factory work, went into the army and was a field artillery cannon crewman on 155mm m109a/2 self propelled howitzer's for 4 years.

while in the army i developed a love for shotguns and handguns, especially handguns.

More factory work after the army, more hand gunning, and while in business as a private contractor for Airborne Express(what you know as DHL) i would guide DC-9's and 727's bringing our freight in Wichita Ks early of the mornings, maybe the loudest noise even with hearing protection you'll ever encounter.

Hit the road for 9 or 10 years work festivals and venue's listing to Bluegrass through festival speakers and stage monitors, go back to factory work, and then CDL Class A truck driving, still hand gunning, and now, i'm seriously paying for it!



On a scale of 1-10, i wake daily with my ears ringing at a 7 or 8, and depending on how much ibuprofen i take that day for arthritis i can easily go to a 9 or 10 with the ringing, there is no relief, there is no cure.

I have 2 hearing aids, they suck! The only make background noise louder, and i have taken myself out of public environments where there is a lot of noise, coffee shops, bars, crowds of people.

I can only carry on conversion with one or two people at a time, and they must be in close and if they talk at the same time, i won't understand either one of them.



jam sessions are a real pain, and of course i can hear my banjo, but if the rest of the instruments can't really bear down on it, it all goes to hell quick!

The sad thing is i still enjoy my banjo, and i want to play more, but my ears just won't let me enjoy it much, i get a good day in every now and then, but not many!



TO ALL YOU BANJO LOVERS AND MUSICIANS,"TAKE CARE OF YOUR EARS"

Warp!

---

I don't think playing a banjo will have any effect on anyones hearing I think that in Warps case Factory work and artillery did the damage. Loud rock music I feel is the worst thing besides a dull wood planer planing a 20" wide piece of maple.

Joe

Tradewinds Ted - Posted - 11/28/2017:  12:46:43

Decibel level readings can be tricky, because it matters where the reading is taken. Generally, the level will drop off by about -6dB if you double the distance from the source. But that means that reverse it true; if you measure very close to the source the readings will go up.



Of course the relationship between dB level and distance isn't perfect because the source of the sound isn't coming from a concentrated single point, but from throughout the instrument, probably mostly in the strings, head, tone ring (if applicable) but throughout the whole instrument. The sound of a banjo is also somewhat directional, so the initial intensity will be different at the same distance in some directions; mostly louder above the head, at least close to the instrument.



As a rough estimate though - the distance from the source to the ear might be about 20 inches (around 0.5 meter) for the person playing. Theoretically, if you try to measure it at 1.25 inches (3.1 cm) away the reading would be up to +24 dB higher than the player really experiences. So imagine that a banjo manages to produce what OSHA considers a harmful sound level of 85 dB at the player's ear, then it might measure as high as 109 dB at 1.25 inches away from the source, which is about where your picking hand might be. Practically, this won't be the case though, the reading at that position would be somewhat lower because of the extended shape of the sound source.



I tend to agree that 130 dB seems unlikely to be a practical result for a banjo, or it would be too painful to ever play without serious hearing protection. Even if the 130 dB measurement had been found very close to the strings, such an instrument would still likely register well above 100 dB at the ear.



The relationship works better for longer distances, because the size and shape of the instrument starts to become a smaller part of the result. So if a banjo manages to produce 85 at the players ear, it might measure only 80 dB for the person few feet away, or 70 dB across the room. But then nothing is simple, because sound reflection off the walls/ceiling/floor can increase the levels again, because those sound waves were not lost into the distance.

Edit:  None of that really answers whether banjo playing can hurt your hearing!   I think the answer is yes, but for most casual players the real answer is not much compared to everything else in life, and for professional players the real damage likely comes from working around amplified instruments.  As mentioned by others above, the damage is cumulative, and can be gradual; if any sound is causing your ears to ring even temporarily, there has been some damage.

Edited by - Tradewinds Ted on 11/28/2017 12:52:16

csacwp - Posted - 11/28/2017:  13:12:44

quote:

---

Originally posted by pickin_fool

I am gonna hafta call you on 130 decibels from nylon strings on an open back...obviously your equipment wasn't calibrated... a train engines air horn produces 150 decibels...when I riveted street car side panels the decibel reading was 126..recorded by the ministry of labor

---

Maybe you haven’t played a banjo with a correct period setup.  My classic style banjos with nylon strings are louder played with bare fingers than a mastertone is played with picks... far louder.  These things were designed (when set up with period string gauges and a period bridge) to fill large concert halls and play over full-size brass bands, without amplification. They are incredibly loud- painfully so.  I have to mute mine when playing at home or my ears ring strongly after a 30 minute practice session.  

As for my measurements, my device was properly calibrated and located about four feet away from the banjo on a table.  

Edited by - csacwp on 11/28/2017 13:15:26

warpdrive - Posted - 11/28/2017:  13:39:48

Well, i can just see it now!

There will be a movement by bluegrass banjo players, to acquire classical banjos with gut strings because we all want the loudest banjo possible (now don't lie, i know what ya'll are thinking)!

A gut string banjo that is louder than a master tone played with picks!

John that is like a 12 year old little leaguer throwing a 90 mile per hr fast ball at the 60ft6inch mark,!

I think at least a few of us would have heard of that!

Just saying.

Warp!

Edited by - warpdrive on 11/28/2017 13:40:57

csacwp - Posted - 11/28/2017:  13:43:55

Kevin, I’m serious, and this is coming from a guy who has owned his fair share of prewar Gibsons (including a prewar style 75 flathead).  I wouldn’t count on a Mastertone, as loud as they are, if I had to play over an orchestra or brass band without amplification, but my Tubaphones and Van Eps’s can do it any day of the week.

By the way, the style is CLASSIC banjo, not “classical”.  There is really nothing classical about it or the music...

Edited by - csacwp on 11/28/2017 13:47:44

warpdrive - Posted - 11/28/2017:  13:56:20

John,
I'm sure you know what your talking about, and not knowing that much about classical and gut strung banjos(i've only played one myself, and it was bass banjo Tom Nechville had set up at SPBGMA one year).
Not knowing you, I'm not going to just come right out and call you a lier,
But i would think i'd have a better chance of crapping a sailboat, before i heard a gut strung banjo that was louder than a regular loud 5 string, but as they say,
I guess anything is possible.
Gerd your loins son, i think your getting ready to be quite popular on this thread.
Or in other words, Prepare to defend yourself.
No offense intended!
Warp!

pickin_fool - Posted - 11/28/2017:  14:21:13

The heavy metal band Manowar is one claimant of the title of "loudest band in the world", citing a measurement of 129.5 dB ...A Boeing 747 at 100 m distance can have a sound pressure level of L = 130 dBSPL. 94 in Hanover...train air horn 152..your banjo 132...
"hello guiness?..we got another live one for ya"

csacwp - Posted - 11/28/2017:  14:24:38

If you’re ever in Baltimore, stop by for a visit and try some of my gut/nylon strung banjos in person. There is nothing wrong with a wire strung Mastertone... they are plenty loud and sound great. They just aren’t as loud as some of the earlier designs intended for gut. Gibson 5-strings were the first 5-strings built with wire strings in mind, thanks to Lloyd Loar’s influence. This is one of the reasons they didn’t sell well at all compared to Vega, Bacon, and Clifford Essex 5-strings in the ‘20s. Interestingly, I have tried original Gibson ball bearings, 40 hole archtops, and a prewar flathead with nylon strings and period bridges, and they didn’t perform well at all... they aren’t great with wire strings either, unless picks are used.  Of course for bluegrass it’s a different and more desirable sound than nylon provides, but you’d be surprised how similar the two string types can sound when the nylon is really thin, resting on a period bridge, and played with picks.  

Edited by - csacwp on 11/28/2017 14:33:48

csacwp - Posted - 11/28/2017:  14:25:45

quote:

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Originally posted by pickin_fool

The heavy metal band Manowar is one claimant of the title of "loudest band in the world", citing a measurement of 129.5 dB ...A Boeing 747 at 100 m distance can have a sound pressure level of L = 130 dBSPL. 94 in Hanover...train air horn 152..your banjo 132... "hello guiness?..we got another live one for ya"

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They had sustained sounds of 129.5 dB... lots of things can reach that volume very briefly and quickly fall off, banjos included.

pickin_fool - Posted - 11/28/2017:  15:11:15

I have an idea...if you own a regular type 5 string..i.e. with steel strings, resonator..mylar head etc...record a simple ditty such as cripple creek for the forum...then switch to your nylon string banjo..play the same song with the same force..same style of playing etc.. and post a side by side audio clip and let the members decide which sounds louder

Dave1climber - Posted - 11/28/2017:  15:13:55

I have the butter, salt, and popcorn ready!! 

csacwp - Posted - 11/28/2017:  15:24:09

quote:

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Originally posted by pickin_fool

I have an idea...if you own a regular type 5 string..i.e. with steel strings, resonator..mylar head etc...record a simple ditty such as cripple creek for the forum...then switch to your nylon string banjo..play the same song with the same force..same style of playing etc.. and post a side by side audio clip and let the members decide which sounds louder

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With proper classic style technique, setup, and no picks, the nylon banjo would win assuming it is an early 20th century design like a Clifford Essex Professional, Tubaphone, Silver Bell, or Van Eps.  This is compared to a Mastertone played with picks.  I’d make the comparison, but I no longer own any Gibson banjos, and all of my banjos are set up for nylon.

Edited by - csacwp on 11/28/2017 15:29:41

warpdrive - Posted - 11/28/2017:  15:45:17

These, brass bands you speak of.........
The one's where a tuba phone or Cliff Essex, or some other louder than a 5 string banjo with gut strings,
If all them horn blowers(and i played Trombone in Junior high school)if they were sickly, and had asthma, or TB, or COPD, and couldn't get much lung into it,
I might, just might, with a few drinks, get on board with that line of thought.

But i likes me some jazz, and a good horn section, and i aint never heard a banjo anywhere, even in my dreams, and especially one with gut strings, that could play as loud as a bugle can toot, or any another brass instrument.
You gots some proving to do.
Warp!

rcc56 - Posted - 11/28/2017:  16:27:39

If you're concerned, play softer.

In 1980, a pedal steel player who used to go out to the truck between sets fried my ears so that certain frequencies hurt. I learned to gig with ear plugs.

A wonderful thing eventually happened-- about 1995 my hearing returned to normal and I was no longer sensitive to those frequencies.

But I still keep earplugs in my gig bag. When the sound pressure level gets high, I use them.

csacwp - Posted - 11/28/2017:  18:34:43

quote:

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Originally posted by warpdrive

These, brass bands you speak of.........

The one's where a tuba phone or Cliff Essex, or some other louder than a 5 string banjo with gut strings,

If all them horn blowers(and i played Trombone in Junior high school)if they were sickly, and had asthma, or TB, or COPD, and couldn't get much lung into it,

I might, just might, with a few drinks, get on board with that line of thought.



But i likes me some jazz, and a good horn section, and i aint never heard a banjo anywhere, even in my dreams, and especially one with gut strings, that could play as loud as a bugle can toot, or any another brass instrument.

You gots some proving to do.

Warp!

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Well, I spent 15 years playing in a dance band, a full jazz orchestra.  We played big band standards. I was a sax player.  I also spent a few years playing in a philharmonic orchestra, and I sat right in front of the trumpets.  Man are they loud!  My banjos can keep up with them though.  Starting in the 1850s, 5-string banjoists often played with brass bands and had no trouble being heard over them.  In the 1890s-1920s, hundreds of recordings of 5-string players were made, and they often featured real-time accompaniments by marching bands and orchestras.  The guys making these recordings also performed live with the same types of ensembles backing them, and they had no issues being heard.  Luckily the recordings survive, so we can hear them today.  

warpdrive - Posted - 11/28/2017:  19:32:20

wow,
i can't wait!
Warp!