FlyinEagle - Posted - 11/29/2017:  06:11:14

To play devil’s advocate here, the tubaphone is supposed to be the loudest tone ring design, and brass/string/big bands were very loud, and a very percussive style is used in those settings.  A hard rim shot on a snare drum is about 125 decibels, and the banjo has a lot in common with a snare drum.  I think Bart’s readings of 90 to 95 decibels were recording while playing a passage.  I wonder what the reading would be with a hard fast strum like you might blast on a tubaphone?

Even so, I’m having a hard time with the 130 db.  Decibels are tricky to conceive because it is a logarithmic unit.  Decibels do not increase linearly like most units we deal with on a daily basic.  For instance, 130 decibels isn’t 1.85 times louder than 70 decibels, it is 32 times louder.

I just pulled this graph from a photography website, but the relationship it shows between a linear and logarithmic increase applies to our topic as well.

And here's a nice chart (which actually incorporates a logarithmic curve!) that puts some common sounds in perspective. 

130 decibels is REALLY loud!

Bart Veerman - Posted - 11/29/2017:  08:26:00

quote:

---

Originally posted by FlyinEagle

I think Bart’s readings of 90 to 95 decibels were recording while playing a passage

130 decibels is REALLY loud!

---

Yes, I recorded myself playing a tune, so an every day real life situation: regular playing, no loud smack strumming.

It seems some have only looked at the numbers without reading how I arrived at them, or the procedure I followed, on the page I linked to. Especially the Banjo-to-Ear numbers are what the volume levels of the sounds waves are as they reach your ear, not as they are leaving the banjo.

When measuring volume levels for this purpose it's important to make sure you use A weighting, not C weighting, on the meter else you'll get weirdly high numbers.

http://banjobridge.com/volumechart.htm

For the skeptics: those dBA level numbers are what they are as is the 85 dBA threshold for hearing safety. As a former tinnitus counselor I recommend you at least not dismiss these numbers but of course, feel free to interpret them any which other way you want...

budbennett - Posted - 11/29/2017:  08:34:31

That is really interesting Bart! Thank you for taking the time to wonder about this and for taking the time to investigate it.

Alex Z - Posted - 11/29/2017:  10:07:21

"130 decibels isn’t 1.85 times louder than 70 decibels, it is 32 times louder."

You're interpreting a difference of 10 decibels as 2 times as loud, and therefore a difference of 50 decibels would be 2**5 = 32 times as loud.

10 decibels is 10 times as loud, so 50 decibels is 10**5 = 100,000 times as "loud" -- referring to sound pressure level.

A decibel is 10 x the log (base 10) of the ratio of two quantities.  For example, if one quantity is 1000 and the other is 10, then the ratio 1000/10 = 100, and the log (base 10) of that is 2.0, and so the difference would be 10 x 2.0 = 20 decibels.

A decibel refers to sound pressure levels.  What we perceive as "loudness" is different.  10 decibels might be perceived as "twice as loud" to our ears, and this is often quoted, but the sound pressure level is 10 times as much.  And that's what does the damage.

Hope this helps.

Edited by - Alex Z on 11/29/2017 10:10:16

FlyinEagle - Posted - 11/29/2017:  10:49:00

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alex Z

"130 decibels isn’t 1.85 times louder than 70 decibels, it is 32 times louder."

You're interpreting a difference of 10 decibels as 2 times as loud, and therefore a difference of 50 decibels would be 2**5 = 32 times as loud.

10 decibels is 10 times as loud, so 50 decibels is 10**5 = 100,000 times as "loud" -- referring to sound pressure level.

A decibel is 10 x the log (base 10) of the ratio of two quantities.  For example, if one quantity is 1000 and the other is 10, then the ratio 1000/10 = 100, and the log (base 10) of that is 2.0, and so the difference would be 10 x 2.0 = 20 decibels.

A decibel refers to sound pressure levels.  What we perceive as "loudness" is different.  10 decibels might be perceived as "twice as loud" to our ears, and this is often quoted, but the sound pressure level is 10 times as much.  And that's what does the damage.

Hope this helps.

---

You’re right.  I should have clarified that I was using a comparison based on listener’s perception rather than mathematics.  

Alex Z - Posted - 11/29/2017:  12:02:08

Yep, and 32 is plenty big enough, as Jeff pointed out.

Imagine being 5 feet away from a Marshall amp or a trumpet.  Then imagine being 5 feet away from 32 Marshall amps or 32 trumpets.  

Now, what were we saying about picks vs nylon strings?  Say what?  How's that again?

hweinberg - Posted - 11/30/2017:  15:03:56

Nowadays I play mostly clawhammer, and while I have a pretty loud set-up, it doesn't compare to my bluegrass banjo. Fortunately, my ears are still OK in spite of standing in front of all those Marshall stacks in the 60s and 70s.

warpdrive - Posted - 11/30/2017:  18:05:33

I just came back from the V.A. audiologist today.
It's been 4 years since my last visit(that's when they gave me the hearing aids, both ears).
They are concerned, i've got about a 30-40% drop since 2013.
I had a hard time repeating key words that i heard in sentences back correctly(i told them how madding social environments have become because of that problem.)

The did fit me for new(what is going to be new) state of the art, digital hearing aids that have some sort of new tech, that can help with my tinnitus(they told me what i've already known, there is no cure.)
These new hearing aids will fit inside my ear, unlike the old ones that fit over my ear and just the wire part went inside the ear.

I should get the new ones in about a month, and they want me to see a EENT for follow up with the increase in hearing loss!

I just hope with the new hearing aids, that maybe i can use them with my banjo, and hopefully, the new digital sounds won't be like listening through a tin can like the old ones, and maybe they will filter out some of the background noise that the old ones had a lot of!
Warp!

FlyinEagle - Posted - 12/01/2017:  04:10:34

quote:

---

Originally posted by warpdrive

I just hope with the new hearing aids, that maybe i can use them with my banjo, and hopefully, the new digital sounds won't be like listening through a tin can like the old ones, and maybe they will filter out some of the background noise that the old ones had a lot of!

Warp!

---

Kevin,

I'm sorry to hear that your hearing has gotten so bad.  I really hope your new hearing aids help out.  I work with a guy who has a set, ones with the little tubes, he says the technology has come a long way in recent years, and he is happy wih them. 

Did you click through Bart's link earlier in the thread to read about his experience coping with tinnitus?  I was poking around in there the other night, worth a read if you haven't yet.

warpdrive - Posted - 12/01/2017:  05:01:31

Thanks for the thoughts Jeff.
I've known for a few years now, especially with the tinnitus that i was headed down some rough road with my hearing.

They had me fill out a question sheet yesterday about how my tinnitus effects me and my everyday life, and judging by the questions themselves, i can see that it doesn't effect everybody the same way, and then again, it effects a lot of people very much in the same way,

For me the social aspect and ability to deal with situations is the most frustrating for me.
I live by myself,(just me and my two dogs.) so i don't have to worry about anything other than my tv volume and interaction with my dogs, but going out into public now can be a pain.
With the ringing so loud, from the time that i wake till bed time(which i am usually up somewhere around 3-3:30 every am, having only slept 3-4 hrs). I really pick and choose what situations i want to tolerate and the one's that i stay away from, and it can be difficult getting people to understand what you go through.
To have to discern and filter out conversations from multiply people along with background noise just overloads my ability to cope, and then i get frustrated, and if i don't take myself out of the environment in a short time, the frustration turns to anger, and then i start losing copping and concentration in short, the ball unravels.

There are many things that i will have to enlist to learn to cope with this, mind distraction is one of them and some of the things i am doing right, like i no longer will subject myself to loud environments, and i am going to make a more concerted effort to wear hearing protection in the future, when i need to.
But my days of putting myself in loud music environments like bars and festivals, i can't justify further damage to my health for love of music and the small amount of money it may bring!.
There is a possibility that i have developed Meniere's disease, i have several of the symptom indicators, the balance problems(vertigo) nausea, along with the ringing and concentration problems, so i have hope that learning more about how to cope with this and what will "work for me" will improve things greatly as time goes by.
The first step,(as with all problems)is identifying the problem, so the test indicated yesterday, and how i've been reacting to situations.
I figure i will do what most people do that develop a disabling problem, learn to make it work with me, and quit letting it work against me.
I do like a challenge.
Warp!

Bigbadbucksnort - Posted - 01/01/2018:  15:22:55

"I use musicians custom hearing plugs myself and really like what they do for me. "

Which ones do you use, Bart?

Edited by - Bigbadbucksnort on 01/01/2018 15:23:41

Bart Veerman - Posted - 01/03/2018:  08:41:07

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bigbadbucksnort

"I use musicians custom hearing plugs myself and really like what they do for me. "



Which ones do you use, Bart?

---

I got them from Costco, their pricing is really good. They made the molds and I ordered them with the 15 dB filters, they fit nice and are quite comfortable. 

Bigbadbucksnort - Posted - 01/03/2018:  10:41:49

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bart Veerman

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bigbadbucksnort

"I use musicians custom hearing plugs myself and really like what they do for me. "



Which ones do you use, Bart?

---

 

I got them from Costco, their pricing is really good. They made the molds and I ordered them with the 15 dB filters, they fit nice and are quite comfortable. 

---

Developed really loud tinnitus about a month ago after seven years of really mild and easily ignorable tinnitus. It's crazy loud now. Hoping earplugs will make it possible to keep playing banjo.



Are these the ones you're talking about? It's the only ear plugs I could find on their website.



costco.com/SportEAR-Ghost-Stry...eId=10301

Edited by - Bigbadbucksnort on 01/03/2018 10:43:23

chuckv97 - Posted - 01/03/2018:  11:42:26

I have some tinnitus, not real serious though. I practice a lot with cloth under the strings. I can still hear the note pitches and it helps me keep even separation of the notes due to the instant tone decay.

Rawhide Creek - Posted - 01/03/2018:  11:55:41

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alex Z

Yep, and 32 is plenty big enough, as Jeff pointed out.

Imagine being 5 feet away from a Marshall amp or a trumpet.  Then imagine being 5 feet away from 32 Marshall amps or 32 trumpets.  

Now, what were we saying about picks vs nylon strings?  Say what?  How's that again?

---

So you can likely imagine what it’s like to sit in the viola section of most symphony orchestras—right in front of the brass!

stanleytone - Posted - 01/04/2018:  03:12:41

If you are worried about your hearing, don't play an archtop! lol

Craig_B - Posted - 01/04/2018:  06:06:13

This makes me think of the Indianapolis Symphony Orchestra concerts I've attended over the years. They've used transparent sound-blocking screens between the strings and brass for a long time, but it wasn't until they played Jim McMillan's "The Confession of Isobel Gowdie" that I ever saw the individual musicians wearing hearing protection themselves. That was the loudest piece I've ever heard an orchestra play.

warpdrive - Posted - 01/04/2018:  06:28:56

my new V.A issue "digital" hearing aids will be in next wednesday, i am actually kinda excited about the prospect of "maybe"being able to keep them in and adjust them so i can play my banjo in them.

I'll offer this question up for the hangout to give me opinion's on, here goes!

"if you were me, would you take your banjo to the fitting, so maybe the tech that fits me, can get an idea of what i'm hearing when picking"? I just thought of this!
Warp!

jeffnles1 - Posted - 01/04/2018:  08:05:14

I just played my banjo into a Db reader. With the mic about 1 foot from the head, the average reading was about 90. (ranged from 81 to 91 during normal playing). When I was playing loud on Cripple Creek and I'll Fly Away, both songs registered peak of 96.5db. On Keep on the Sunny Side and Amazing Grace, the peak was 91db.

My banjo is a 1980 year ODE Style C.

The Old Timer - Posted - 01/04/2018:  08:10:20

I'm 64 and have some high frequency hearing loss. I also developed tinnitus in left ear about 10 years ago. Saw a specialist, took the herbal supplements for 6 months and they didn't work for me.

I have no idea where tinnitus comes from, but I know I hurt my hearing when I was a teenager learning to pick the banjo, with my ear pressed right up against the speaker of the Zenith stereo cabinet on high volume with all bass rolled out and max. treble, so I could hear the banjo notes of course! I was also an avid duck hunter in my teens and enjoyed the blast of the 12 gauge and the smell of gunpowder in the morning. Then I spent 42 years working in factories (paper mills) where OSHA had caught up and specified ear plugs and ear muffs, which I wore. But in my hearing tests they found I already had lost some high frequency before I even went in the mills.

I NEVER felt banjo playing was harmful, compared to the other much more serious exposure I endured. Speaker systems at concerts, both on stage and in the audience, they are worse. My tinnitus is especially sensitive to overdriven highs from a festival sound system when I'm in the audience. With NO ONE on stage or on mic, if the sound man has the highs wound up too much, my tinnitus will be set off like a grenade, even though this "noise" is ultrasonic. I've actually had to leave a festival audience due to this.

TV is worse than the banjo, depending on who's in charge of the volume. Someone blasting rhythm on a Martin in your face is worse than banjo.

Snowmobiles, chain saws, lawnmowers, leaf blowers, riding in the back row of an old Delta MD 88 jet, or a Dash or Embraer turboprop, all worse than a banjo.

I think for most of us, the banjo is the least of the threats to our hearing, compared to everything else in life. Plus, you don't "have to" pick hard...

Bart Veerman - Posted - 01/04/2018:  08:20:40

quote:

---

Originally posted by warpdrive

"if you were me, would you take your banjo to the fitting, so maybe the tech that fits me, can get an idea of what i'm hearing when picking"? I just thought of this!

 

---

Bring it and play it, insist on it, while they're adjusting them for that purpose - absolutely!!!

If they tell you there's no need for that then take it as a sign that you're not talking to the right people

warpdrive - Posted - 01/04/2018:  08:32:52

"Thanks Bart"
Warp!

Bart Veerman - Posted - 01/05/2018:  06:33:42

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bigbadbucksnort

Are these the ones you're talking about? It's the only ear plugs I could find on their website

---

Nope, the ones in that link are just ear plugs, albeit real funky ones - not the ones you should look at.

The ones I use are custom molded musician's ear plugs, you have to talk to the audiologist in the hearing aid department about those.

Bigbadbucksnort - Posted - 01/05/2018:  10:51:24

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bart Veerman

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bigbadbucksnort

Are these the ones you're talking about? It's the only ear plugs I could find on their website

---

 

Nope, the ones in that link are just ear plugs, albeit real funky ones - not the ones you should look at.

The ones I use are custom molded musician's ear plugs, you have to talk to the audiologist in the hearing aid department about those.

---

Thanks again, Bart. I'll check it out.

bluegrassbanjopicker - Posted - 01/05/2018:  14:34:29

quote:

---

Originally posted by csacwp

I had my nylon strung classic style banjos measured with a good decibel meter and they routinely break the 120 db mark. One (a 12” Tubaphone) can get up to 130 db when played hard.

---

What you are saying is that your banjos can get as loud as a military jet engine takeoff. Believe me, no banjo, nylon-strung or not, Tubaphone or not, is ever going to get this loud without the help of a big whopper speaker set! If your Tubaphone banjo actually gets up to 130, you are most seriously damaging your hearing! If what you call "130 decibels" is actually 130, you could not begin to play your banjo and bear the sound. You would completely overpower even the biggest bluegrass jam. I would not hesitate to add that you would be considered a most annoying nuisance to that jam.  I am saying right here and now it is not physically possible to produce a banjo that gives that level of noise, amplifiers not considered. You are two levels away from getting a ruptured eardrum, according to the chart below. I challenge you to tell or make anyone believe that your banjo can reach 130. It's not going to happen. You are confusing measurement levels and exaggerating.

I find it impossible to believe that your banjo is louder than a thunderclap.

Here is a table of decibel levels and their effects on the ear, from Purdue University.

Noise Sources and Their Effects

Edited by - bluegrassbanjopicker on 01/05/2018 14:39:02

Bigbadbucksnort - Posted - 01/05/2018:  19:17:03

quote:

---

Originally posted by bluegrassbanjopicker

Here is a table of decibel levels and their effects on the ear, from Purdue University.

 

Boeing 737 or DC-9 aircraft at one nautical mile (6080 ft) before landing (97 dB); power mower (96 dB); motorcycle at 25 ft (90 dB).  Newspaper press (97 dB).	90	4 times as loud as 70 dB.  Likely damage 8 hr exp
Garbage disposal, dishwasher, average factory, freight train (at 15 meters).  Car wash at 20 ft (89 dB); propeller plane flyover at 1000 ft (88 dB); diesel truck 40 mph at 50 ft (84 dB); diesel train at 45 mph at 100 ft (83 dB).  Food blender (88 dB); milling machine (85 dB); garbage disposal (80 dB).	80	2 times as loud as 70 dB.  Possible damage in 8 h exposure.
Passenger car at 65 mph at 25 ft (77 dB); freeway at 50 ft from pavement edge 10 a.m. (76 dB).  Living room music (76 dB); radio or TV-audio, vacuum cleaner (70 dB).	70	Arbitrary base of comparison.  Upper 70s are annoyingly loud to some people.

 

 

---

That's a very handy chart. Thanks for sharing.



Question: when they say (for example) that 90 decibels will give "Likely damage in 8 hour exposure," what precisely do they mean by that? Do they mean continual exposure? Or total exposure within a limited time frame? Total exposure makes more sense, obviously. But what if someone has listened to 90 decibels at a bluegrass jam at a festival, which can go on for hours and hours?



Most bluegrass jams I've been in or near were at least 80 decibels while the music's going, and those jams lasted for hours. Seems to me that the breaks in between songs must be responsible for why all of us are not deaf after a handful of jam sessions.

Edited by - Bigbadbucksnort on 01/05/2018 19:17:32

FlyinEagle - Posted - 01/05/2018:  21:26:07

I'm really cracking up. The mental image of a banjo at a BG jam that is as loud as a jet engine is too much. I'm trying not to wake my wife up.



I think Bart Veerman subtly and politely explained the readings in one of his earlier posts



"When measuring volume levels for this purpose it's important to make sure you use A weighting, not C weighting, on the meter else you'll get weirdly high numbers."

Edited by - FlyinEagle on 01/05/2018 21:27:42

warpdrive - Posted - 01/06/2018:  03:23:30

Guys, (with exception to Bart, i consider him the only expert on hearing on this thread)
There are "many sources of studies" on these decibel readings, and for me, based on my experience with loud environments i've worked in, "I myself, must question the Perdue Chart listed in this Thread"!
Here's Why!

In the last year, since my tinnitus has got so bad, and my severe hearing loss, i have looked up"googled" various different decibel levels for the jobs i've done!

The army had a chart listing for all there different equipment, and my beloved Field Artillery Cannon's came in second behind Aircraft at around 175 decibel's.
From 1991-1995, while i was private contracting for ABX, i would routinely work the flight line at mid continent Airport in Wichita, and flag in DC-9 and 10's and 727, and let me tell you, those jet engines when you have the nose of them taxi up to within 5 feet of your nose, even with headset's on, the noise will make you dizzy, and its way louder than cannon fire and longer sustained.
I remember working with some country bands, and by law, in some of the bars, we were required to take a decibel reading and while the band was at it's loudest we rarely exceeded 100, decibel's(the cops kept a tight rein on us).

Some of these lower number readings, i think are fairly close, but i think on the exstreamly loud equipment, these studies are missing the correct reading, by a lot on the high end,

there is no way, not on any planet in the known universe, that a banjo can be compared to a Jet engine in terms of decibel loudness, and anybody that just uses a chart to verify these things, should have there head examined!
Warp!

Rawhide Creek - Posted - 01/06/2018:  12:26:35

Unless I missed something along the way, the emphasis of the discussion has been on sound pressure level(s) but not the consequences of exposure, i. e., temporary threshold shift (TTS) versus permanent threshold shift (PTS). 

rudy - Posted - 01/06/2018:  18:57:02

These topics always tend to bring out folks who think they have the answer for hearing problems, but the truth is there's a whole range of complexity that sufferers have to deal with.

I learned from my audiologist that many suffer from not only common tinnitus, but hyperacusis.  I have both, so it's a daily imposition to say the least.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperacusis

Many who have never experienced the constant form of tinnitus don't realize the sheer panic that ensues when you realize you may experience this for the rest of your life; EVERY waking minute.  Tinnitus often comes and goes in it's early stages, and becomes more severe and persistent with age.  Don't be overly concerned it's from some environmental exposure; there's lots of evidence it's genetic in pre-disposition.  You can take all the precautions in the world and still end up with it.

For those afflicted by tinnitus may I suggest a masking program?  I sometimes do this, simply throwing on a set of over the ear headphones and selecting a masking program.  It's no cure, but it's free, easy, and often has a lasting effect for me.

audionotch.com/tinnitus-masker

Hyperacusis is a whole other issue, but worth researching to determine if your auditory problems go beyond simple tinnitus.

Bart's information is spot on and very good for those interested.

Bigbadbucksnort - Posted - 01/06/2018:  20:49:56

quote:

---

Many who have never experienced the constant form of tinnitus don't realize the sheer panic that ensues when you realize you may experience this for the rest of your life; EVERY waking minute.  Tinnitus often comes and goes in it's early stages, and becomes more severe and persistent with age...

For those afflicted by tinnitus may I suggest a masking program?  I sometimes do this, simply throwing on a set of over the ear headphones and selecting a masking program.  It's no cure, but it's free, easy, and often has a lasting effect for me.

audionotch.com/tinnitus-masker

Bart's information is spot on and very good for those interested.

 

---

Thanks for the link to the maskers. I have been collecting these since getting afflicted and these have definitely helped me fall asleep at night. Will try some of these new ones out.



I have panic attacks anyway due to PTSD, so the addition of tinnitus to my cocktail of problems was particularly hard to deal with. It's one thing to have to deal with panic attacks anyway, but to have a constant temptation to do so right in your ear...



However, I did find some reports that suggest that spontaneous recovery from tinnitus, or a more comfortable habituation to it regardless of age, is the rule and not the exception. Hope this helps.



tinnitustalk.com/threads/spont...es.21441/



Tobias

FlyinEagle - Posted - 01/06/2018:  21:06:28

Here's another temporary "treatment".  It's really just another masking technique.  It is kind of effective for me, but it is very brief (a minute or 2) and it probably couldn't won't work at all of your tinnitus is very severe.

Bigbadbucksnort - Posted - 01/07/2018:  00:29:07

quote:

---

Originally posted by FlyinEagle

Here's another temporary "treatment".  It's really just another masking technique.  It is kind of effective for me, but it is very brief (a minute or 2) and it probably couldn't won't work at all of your tinnitus is very severe.

---

This is temporary for me as well, but I've seen other videos of this same technique that suggested if you did this anywhere from 20-60 times, three or four times a day, the silence lasts longer. Some people get immediate results. Others get better results from increased repetition stretched out over time.



I'm wary of combining solutions, in the hopes of better isolating what does and doesn't help me, but this one is definitely on my list after trying some of the supplements out there.