easy - Posted - 02/16/2017:  17:20:28

Hello friends.  I'm building a banjo from the ground up, and think I'd like to go with a block rim.  First off, for those who've owned/played one or more, do they, in fact, seem superior to bent rims?  Pros/cons?  Next, which would you recommend?  I've heard/read good things about both Tony Pass and Helix, are there others of their caliber on the market?  Also, I've read that decreasing the wood to metal ratio can help me achieve the sound I'm going for (good and plunky with a strong attack and quick decay) <banjohangout.org/topic/325798>, so I'm attracted to Pass' thinskirt.

Finally, is there anyone who would recommend against a block rim, that I might achieve a better sound with a more traditional rim?  Thanks in advance,

David

ClayTech - Posted - 02/16/2017:  18:07:44

Here we go. Give me a minute to make some popcorn before the show starts.....

But seriously, it's all very subjective. For starters, what type of playing do you do- bluegrass, clawhammer, etc?

cbrianroll - Posted - 02/16/2017:  18:25:36

Ooh...someone say popcorn! Let the games begin! Too personal a question without knowing your intended outcome. I personally like Ken Levans finger jointed rims, to much work for me though. I had great success with traditional block rim..Walnut, with walnut neck, Renaissance head. Good luck! I need more butter.......

cbrianroll - Posted - 02/16/2017:  18:28:00

Oops, not sure how I missed your intended outcome, pass rims are nice!

DeanT - Posted - 02/16/2017:  19:00:10

I've owned both a Helix and a Pass ring. The Pass ring was absolutely beautiful, and perfectly made. It was a work of art, and flawless. The Helix rim however, totally kicked the Pass rim's ass, for tone and volume. Both banjos were woodies (no tone ring). The Helix rim is the only non tone-ringed banjo that I've had, that could keep up in an acoustic jam.

hweinberg - Posted - 02/16/2017:  21:30:08

I have an open-back Cedar Mountain model L-2 with a rosewood block construction and integrated tone rim.  It was made by Lo Gordon around 1998 and I am confident that his son, Tim Gardener who has taken over the workshop, makes the same rim with the same qualities.  Everyone who hears it comments on the very strong volume.  The tone of course is more of a personal taste, and I have tried several set-up options -- action, string gauges, bridge, head -- to settle  on the tone that I like. 

OldPappy - Posted - 02/17/2017:  04:55:51

My Cloverlick banjo has a Tony Pass rim from 2006, so was made by Tony Pass. It is a fine banjo, sounds great, but the rim is only one part of the whole.

I have used several block rims made by Zach Hoyt (BHO member), and they are fine rims too.

I have also used laminated Maple rims from Cooperman, and the last banjo I built I used a laminated Walnut rim from Balsam Banjo Works. Both of these produce exceptionally well made laminated rims.

I like the looks of a laminated rim better, and I don't like cutting a big square hole in a block rim for the dowel mortise, so use a laminated rim when building with a dowel, or when building with a thinner rim.

If coordinator rods are to be used in the construction I always use a laminated rim, because I have seen more than one block rim ruined by folks over tightening coordinator rods. A block rim is not designed to flex .

I build some banjos for a couple of people who prefer a thick (3/4") rim, with bolt on necks (take down design for air travel). I use block rims for those.

I was very impressed with the quality of the Balsam laminated rim, and will use more of those soon.

As to sound, what matters more than rim construction is the mass, thickness, type of wood, and the size of the air chamber.

There are plenty of folks who claim otherwise, but I don't think most people could tell the difference between the two types provided they were quality rims of the same dimensions, and wood variety.

Edited by - OldPappy on 02/17/2017 05:00:12

rudy - Posted - 02/17/2017:  05:57:59

quote:

---

Originally posted by easy

Hello friends.  I'm building a banjo from the ground up, and think I'd like to go with a block rim.  First off, for those who've owned/played one or more, do they, in fact, seem superior to bent rims?  Pros/cons?  Next, which would you recommend?  I've heard/read good things about both Tony Pass and Helix, are there others of their caliber on the market?  Also, I've read that decreasing the wood to metal ratio can help me achieve the sound I'm going for (good and plunky with a strong attack and quick decay) banjohangout.org="">, so I'm attracted to Pass' thinskirt.

Finally, is there anyone who would recommend against a block rim, that I might achieve a better sound with a more traditional rim?  Thanks in advance,

David

---

Hi David,

All good questions that show the direction that you'd like to take for achieving the desired sound.

First, OldPappy covered the answers well, so that covers a large portion of your considerations.  I'd add that you examine the construction of many open backs that meet the qualifications of the sound you're going towards.  There's a reason that many well-respected small shop makers use relatively thin-shelled laminate rims for open backs that are built to achieve the sound qualities that most frailers look for when looking for a modern era banjo.  Heavy wall block rims can't sound fine to a player that's looking for a given tonal quality, but it doesn't seem like that would be the direction you are looking for.

Another part of what contributes to your enjoyment of a banjo that you've invested time and money in making is the look of the instrument, and should consider the number of hours that you'll have it in front of you.  Some types of rims are physically more attractive than others, and it does contribute to the playing experience.

Whatever you decide to use do consider that if the rim shows unattractive glue joints it's not going to get any better with time.  If glue joints are plainly visible on the surface that means the mating ends of the wood segments aren't any better inside the rim.  You're investing a considerable amount of time and money with your build, so make sure it's something you'll be proud of, will please your visual sensibilities, and has the best chance of matching your tonal expectations.

Fathand - Posted - 02/17/2017:  06:32:37

Since you are building from the "ground up", the Helix and Pass rims are a moot point unless you are trying to reproduce what they do.

Study the construction of each and compare to the shop equipment you have available, or are willing to purchase, and your comfort level in all of the construction steps. There is a recent thread on BHO about Stelling Rim preferences and they are both popular.

Banjophobic - Posted - 02/17/2017:  07:43:11

Randall Wyatt makes as good a block rim as anyone, so add his name to your list of builders.

ken61 - Posted - 02/18/2017:  06:18:24

David

Let me offer some thoughts on this subject. I am not being negative here , just trying to be objective.

I teach a banjo building class where my students build banjos, both openback and resonator types. We make all the wooden parts except the fretboards and soon we will be doing those.

We have built nearly 70 banjos in this class and I have built about 13 for myself.

There is a huge number of parts on a banjo , all of which contribute to the overall sound.

There is a tremendous amount of anecdotal evidence regarding how the various parts affect the sound of a banjo, but VERY LITTLE true scientific data.

Looking at a pile of parts on the table, I do not believe it is possible for ANYONE to predict the sound quality which will come from those parts when incorporated into a playable banjo.

A rim can be purchased for anywhere from $50 to $250. Depending on the banjo design and the parts chosen for quality this can be a small percentage or a significant percentage of the total cost.

There are many quality rims available in the block format including Pass, Helix, LeVan, and many others.including mine whicih I rarely offer for sale. Among these the designs vary greatly and the wood species can vary greatly. About the only things constant about rims is they are round, often 11 inches in diameter, made of wood. Everything else is a variable added to the variable nature of every other part in a banjo.

Prediction is not possible---I know, some will still argue and it makes for good conversation , but little efficient prediction.

Choose a rim, build your banjo, enjoy the sound, or change the rim for another and try it again to see if you like it better or not. Sell the rims you do not like and the overall cost is not that great.

Remember, all the other parts and the setup of the instrument will be having an effect on the sound you hear including the weather .

Of all the banjos we built in my class and those built by me for myself, I never said, after proper setup, I hate this banjo.

All banjos do not sound alike, nor should they, nor should we expect them to .

Enjoy your build and your banjo.

ken61

MIle HIgh - Posted - 02/18/2017:  17:18:50

I own a Helix Jackrabbit. It's made of bamboo. My son has a Deering basic. The Jackrabbit is a hair over 5 lbs. with the resonator. It does not have a flange so the resonator is held on with magnets. The helix is not quite as loud as the Deering Basic. They are 2 different animals. I've been pleased with the sound and loudness of the Bamboo Helix. So, the power to weight ratio has been great. I think it may have something to do with the block design that Larry uses. One note. The block rim appears easy to repair also. The post office broke the rim of the banjo during return shipment from Larry. I had him upgrade the rim with spoons. Not only did they break the rim, they broke the tone ring also. Larry fixed it with no problem. Not exactly sure how he did the magic. I can only guess that if the rim was other than a block construction, it would have been beyond repair.

cbrianroll - Posted - 02/18/2017:  17:40:59

My block rim was walnut. My test rim I could stand on and throw around the woodshed and it wouldn't break. How did they manage that??!!

MIle HIgh - Posted - 02/18/2017:  18:32:13

MIle HIgh - Posted - 02/18/2017:  18:33:48

Never could figure it out. The outer packing was not damaged. Larry was scratching his head also. I"m just glad it was fixable. No problems since the repair and the banjo is played almost daily and travels out of the house in the case once a week.

wizofos - Posted - 02/20/2017:  10:22:19

Just a thought about Helix vs Block Rims. 

The Helix rim is only 8 pieces of wood vs about 3-4 times that many pieces and the increased number of glue joints for a block rim. 

The Helix rims are one solid piece from bottom to top so no planing or sanding to get the glue joints for the layers flat and smooth.  Basically with a block rim you are building 3-4 rims then stacking them. 

This has nothing to do with the sound or tone of the rim but with  my perception of ease of building.  Less glue joints, less cutting, less work.

 

Helix - Posted - 02/21/2017:  05:33:23

All the rims have the same board feet and circumference, it's how you use the tone ring and the grain together. People can split hairs, but the math don't fib.

All of these kinds of rims, we hear at the jam and there is a TELL, a character and characteristic struggle to be heard, people work harder with various rigs. More carpal tunnel. Some banjos require silence from the crowd to be heard.

Go ahead, use a thin drum shell, it makes a fine banjo, but it's only one way to do it,

Now lay each type of rim out flat and show them side by side and extreme differences appear which have direct relation to how the banjo will perform. And we could demonstrate that side by side, given a few subjective variables.

1.Laminated rim or lammies are 3 strips stacked on each other, glue all over the inside lam. Straight grain
2. Finger jointed is still straight grain.
3. Brick rims use straight grain, Tony Pass and others say virtual 100% solid, quarter sawn, straight grain, inside shaped like a bell. Brick rims have glue on 4 of 6 sides of the inside tier.
4. Vertical stave rims are like a solid walkway with pavers. Vertical grain
5. The Helix type rim is angled at 45 degrees like a caterpillar tractor so the Virtual depth on a 3" rim is 4.24" Angled grain , more contact with the end grain and tone ring , the signal follows the grain
6. The McDow type rim is a solid ring, no joints, straight grain, one piece of wood, very well thought out,

Now choose yer poison and get in there, dive, dive.

Mahogany, Grapefruit, Cherry, Cherry, Hickory, Red Oak, Chestnut

 

Banjophobic - Posted - 02/21/2017:  07:32:06

The direction of the grain and relation to the tonering sitting upon it  being "better" is based upon anecdotal evidences. There are fantastic sounding banjos made from both block and traditional 3 ply rims. The main contributing factor to tone in a rim is well seasoned  wood, skillfully made and assembled and properly fitted to the tone ring.  Any well made rim will sound "different" from another, depending on the individual pieces of wood and how the rim is built and most importantly, what the other parts are in said banjo and how it is set up. 

Ken LeVan - Posted - 02/21/2017:  10:45:37

What Banjophobic says.

There is way way way too much energy spent trying to determine which method of construction or "brand"of rim is the be-all and end-all.  In truth, the rim is just one part of a banjo, and not the most important one.  We all wish there was a "silver bullet" and you could predict how a given rim will perform, but it's not so. If anyone says they can consistently make rims that perform the same way every time - that's just BS or hype - the voodoo nonsense is a lot of fun, but not serious. It diverts your attention from what's really important.

One Tony Pass rim is necessarily different than the next one on the pile because of the wood it's made from, BUT you can count on the fact that they are always well-made from good wood and all have well-made tight joints and a predictable stiffness - they won't break themselves apart because of poor joinery, shear stress failure across the glue joints caused by radial expansion, and you can't squeeze one of those rims into an oval.

Stiffness is an extremely important attribute of  banjo rims for several reasons. Then you have the physical dimensions: thickness, depth and weight - Then you need to be able to alter the blank to fit it to the other parts.

The rim has to be made to fit the individual banjo design, and the physical dimensions and species of wood are more important than the method of construction (providing the method of construction is a sound one).

The two predominant rim making methods, laminated and block construction, became the standards because they are predictably stiff, and in the case of traditional laminated ones, you can make a very thin rim without giving up structural integrity.  Block rims, the "new kid on the block" are popular because they are easy to make in a typical shop and the grain can be properly oriented,they are plenty stiff, and they are versatile. They work for Tony Pass because he can turn the bottom of the inside thinner to make a "thin skirt" without having to worry about lamination glue-lines. These rims always have the grain running horizontally around the rim because wood expands across the grain, not end-to end, which is why a rim made with the grain running horizontally is more stable than one with the grain running up-and down, and that's why most rims are made that way.

I make laminated rims, block rims, finger-jointed rims and and hybrid kinds with a combination of block or finger-jointed cores and laminations - ALL made with good wood and good tight glue joints and the grain running in a stable direction. No one kind is intrinsically better than the others.  I will say that again - no one kind is intrinsically better than the others.  There is basically no difference in the quality sound they will produce when made into a banjo.  The critical variables are the dimensions the wood, and the design of the pot.

In the past two months I have made 4 banjos - (1) An openback with a finger-jointed cherry rim with a walnut lamination, (2) a bluegrass one with a cherry block rim, (3) a frailing banjo with a finger-jointed cherry rim with a cherry lamination (for which I made an alternate laminated cherry-beech rim for comparison), and a longneck openback with a Vega-esque 7-ply laminated maple and beech rim with 2 alternating laminations.  The rims for each of these had different dimensions, were for different kinds of banjos, and the rim construction method was chosen because of the specific requirements of the banjo, not because of some slavish and stubborn adherence to a particular method I am invested in (I am not invested in any single method).  I am starting on another one right now, and haven't decided which way to go yet. 

Helix - Posted - 02/22/2017:  04:01:36

Easy, it's your thread, are you getting enough information? Boulding and Levan have responded with their AMAZING opinions, see how they have grown?

It's your project, from a building point of view, you are free to examine all these opinions and either build a certain type of rim or gather more information, the sound you are looking for can definitely be built in.

Nobody even mentioned knock note, and how to use it.

As far as traditions and anecdotes, those are just the changing tides, people want what works, don't be afraid to ask, don't forget to ask what their banjos weigh, that's another TELL.

Dan Drabek - Posted - 02/22/2017:  10:00:04

Chasing after the ultimate rim, or the ultimate tone ring, etc. I put into the same category as magnet therapy or shark cartilage pills. Or the belief that a $350 Lie-Nielsen bronze smoothing plane will build better furniture than a $25 19th century Stanley plane. Or that a pre-war Mastertone will make you a better banjo player than a well designed new instrument. We're always looking for the magic fix. 

It's not hard to pin down what makes a banjo sound the way we want it to sound. Look at the bluegrass banjo. Nearly all of them have heavy rims, heavy tone ring, plastic head, steep break angle and resonator. The traditional player wears a cowboy hat and a tie. The result is perfect for the idiom. Some banjos are better than others, but almost any bluegrass banjo will be better for playing bluegrass than will the best of the old-timey banjos. 

Alternately, the typical old time banjo has a lightweight rim, skin head, short tailpiece, no resonator, shallower break angle, light weight, simple or no tone ring, few brackets, and fret scoop. The old timey player wears no hat, or maybe a fedora, vest and rolled up sleeves. there are few bluegrass banjos that an old timey player would be happy with. 

Those are the things that have the most predictable effect on the sound coming out of the banjo. There are side growths of each ideom that play variations on the theme, but I see basically the two most popular formats, each with it's own list of instrument design preferences. There are, of course, subdivisions. For example, the church of Earl Scruggs has it's own liturgy, while the progressive bluegrassers are allowed a bit more special dispensation. 

I won't even get into the four string players, who seem to be less rigid in their preferences, or the "classic" group which has its own unique needs. Or for that matter, the historical folks who play gourd banjos, etc. The one thing the best of them have in common is the use of tried and true design principles coupled with good craftsmanship and proper woods. That does not mean that there’s no room for experimentation. That’s part of the fun of the instrument. But the most popular examples of all banjo styles still tend to be remarkably similar to designs that were developed long ago, and while sometimes equalled, are rarely improved upon. 

DD

rudy - Posted - 02/22/2017:  11:34:34

My thanks particularly to Ken and Dan for bringing clarity to senseless chaos.  Absolutely nothing wrong with tradition combined with good common sense, and it once again reassures us that skillful joinery and proper attention to well-made glue joints will go a long way toward creating rims that stay together for the long haul.

First and foremost, an instrument of any type has to follow the rules of maintaining mechanical integrity.  Only then can we move toward the possibility of refining sound characteristics.

cbrianroll - Posted - 02/22/2017:  12:50:12

My bottle cap cheapo banjo was really plunckity.....new head and little modifying and it sounded like a banjo lol

Banjophobic - Posted - 02/22/2017:  14:33:17

quote:

---

Originally posted by Helix

 

Nobody even mentioned knock note, and how to use it.



As far as traditions and anecdotes, those are just the changing tides, people want what works, don't be afraid to ask, don't forget to ask what their banjos weigh, that's another TELL.

---

Ok, I'll mention a knock note, tell me how a knock note on a rim is going to predict how it will sound on every banjo. My banjo weighs 11 pounds and sounds amazing. I've had banjos in the shop that weighed 6 lbs that sounded great, and a Great Lakes top tension that weighed probably 15 lbs that sounds great, so what's the point of that?

Dan Drabek - Posted - 02/22/2017:  14:58:27

Knock notes are relevant in guitar tops. And most of the great luthiers use it for determining the stiffness and resonance of a particular piece of tone wood. The rim of a banjo has no relationship to the soundboard of the guitar. If anything, it is counterpart to the sides of the guitar--which are nearly insignificant in the ultimate sound of the guitar--and IMHO, equally insignificant in the sound quality of the banjo. 

On a banjo, the head is the counterpart of the soundboard on a guitar, and is highly relevant in it's contribution to the banjo's tone. Knock notes on the head signal significant differences in tone quality. Tighten the head on a banjo to a higher pitch, and the response of the head becomes quite different than a head which is loose. Change out the wood species or grain direction, or glue surface on a rim and you experience only minor differences. The depth of the rim is of more importance in my experience, than the construction details. 

I do not mean to belittle rim builders, as the rim has it's own importance as as stable support for the head. And it plays a serious role in the solidity and stability of the pot. Once again, construction quality separates a good one from a bad one. But not necessarily an expensive one from an affordable one. 

DD

rudy - Posted - 02/22/2017:  18:09:42

quote:

---

Originally posted by Helix

Easy, it's your thread, are you getting enough information? Boulding and Levan have responded with their AMAZING opinions, see how they have grown?



It's your project, from a building point of view, you are free to examine all these opinions and either build a certain type of rim or gather more information, the sound you are looking for can definitely be built in.



Nobody even mentioned knock note, and how to use it.



As far as traditions and anecdotes, those are just the changing tides, people want what works, don't be afraid to ask, don't forget to ask what their banjos weigh, that's another TELL.

---

Might be an obvious reason for that.

ClayTech - Posted - 02/22/2017:  21:32:39

Let's not forget setup. The strings, tailpiece, bridge, head, and head tension can all dramatically change the sound of your banjo. Your choice of tone ring will also make a huge difference, whether it be a simple brass ring or a Dobson or White Laydie, or Tubaphone, or no tone ring at all. The diameter and thickness of the rim will also have an effect. I'd say the construction method used in building your rim will have less of an effect than all the other variables.

Aradobanjo - Posted - 02/23/2017:  03:55:23

Hello,

A Thirst seems to be present to discount what others are offering as opinions. This thirst leads to some interesting comments. The popcorn is getting really salty.  

"The rim of a banjo has no relationship to the soundboard of the guitar."

This quote is an example.  A rim defines the sound chamber. Without the rim, a banjo does not exist. Tone chamber is critical to a banjo sound. Dave Politzer showed this in his analysis of banjos rim types. All test cases of Dave's test were all laminated.

The soundboard defines the sound chamber of the guitar. Else, a guitar does not exist but an open box. Now, tone woods have been selected to make a guitar sound like some famous person's guitar. But, they cannot replicate this owner's guitar. 

The same is true with banjos. Some famous person recorded your favorite song. Now, the quest is on to find an instrument to fanaticize being that famous person. He/She used brand X. Brand X uses this wood, metal, and configuration. 

Look at this from another angle. What do I want this banjo to be? A personal enjoyment instrument? An instructional Instrument? Or an instrument to blast every unappreciative banjo hater or rude jam instruments? Or a money making tool?

Then looking at the banjo from this angle, find a build that meets a defined need. Else, we chase the opinions like the wind. Today, the flavor is _______. Just remember, a banjo is a personal instrument. What I may like, no one else may like. 

Edited by - Aradobanjo on 02/23/2017 03:57:20

Helix - Posted - 02/23/2017:  04:42:43

good camp, nice fire, plenty of fuel.

Then there's the bird's beak rim.

And............Pickett's rim from the Foxfire book.

We ain't pickin' fights today, pickin' banjos.

 

Banjophobic - Posted - 02/23/2017:  06:41:33

The OP asked for opinions about the best rim. The options will range from "this one" to "that one" to "there is no best...only what YOU think you will  like in your banjo".  This is what a forum is for and how it operates. The "thirst" that's here is the one where each member participating gives their viewpoints and opinions. 

We know threads drift and often lead to other interesting discussions. Opinions in the drifts will vary too. Looks to me as if the forum is fulfilling its purpose. 🙂

bohemian - Posted - 02/23/2017:  08:01:06

I did not see WILDWOOD mentioned.  They have been making block rims for over 3 decades, maybe 4.

Excellent banjos, made in Bend Oregon, formerly Arcata, Ca.

Dan Drabek - Posted - 02/23/2017:  08:20:37

You can make a banjo with a concrete rim and it would still be a good sounding banjo. ( albeit a heavy one )

But you cannot make a good sounding banjo with a concrete head.

DD

Ken LeVan - Posted - 02/23/2017:  08:30:05

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dan Drabek

 

You can make a banjo with a concrete rim and it would still be a good sounding banjo. ( albeit a heavy one )

But you cannot make a good sounding banjo with a concrete head.

DD

---

Well said,

The stretched head is where the banjo sound comes from and what distinguishes it from guitars, mandolins, violins, lutes, balalaikas,etc, which have wooden tops. The rim and all the metal hardware,tone ring, etc. is the means by which the head gets stretched and transfers it's sound from the strings through the bridge into the air where we can hear it.

rudy - Posted - 02/23/2017:  09:43:35

quote:

---

Originally posted by bohemian

 

I did not see WILDWOOD mentioned.  They have been making block rims for over 3 decades, maybe 4.

Excellent banjos, made in Bend Oregon, formerly Arcata, Ca.

---

The OP is "building a banjo from the ground up".  Do you have a source for Wildwood rims?  I've never seen anything that would indicate they were sold for someone else's use.

ken61 - Posted - 02/24/2017:  06:12:24

John Boulding, your thoughts just above on what forum activity should  be and do is spot on. 

Hoping this view becomes the essence of BHO forums.

ken61

Ken LeVan - Posted - 02/24/2017:  06:15:34

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken61

 

John Boulding, your thoughts just above on what forum activity should  be and do is spot on. 

 

Hoping this view becomes the essence of BHO forums.

 

ken61

---

I second that motion

Ken

Banjophobic - Posted - 02/24/2017:  06:35:36

Well, I am  just trying to be real here, so thanks for recognizing that guys,haha, forums work best when everyone can agree to disagree or to agree without someone trying to shut it down. 

Helix - Posted - 02/25/2017:  05:50:31

Real is good.

easy - Posted - 02/25/2017:  07:03:56

Thanks for the tip on treating the co-rod adjustments gingerly Andy.  I've got a couple sets of Michael Martin's rods coming in the mail which I'm pretty psyched about - banjohangout.org/archive/268525 - (one for my new project, the other being yet another upgrade on my GoldTone openback), so I'll take care not to get overzealous with the co-rod tension adjustments. 

Helix, definitely getting some good info, thanks for asking.  I've decided to go with one of Ken Levan's block rims in a thinskirt-type configuration - the thinskirt being an effort to increase the metal-to-wood ratio in order to achieve more the sound I'm going for, as per advice that I recieved here - banjohangout.org/topic/325798/#4137184 -, along with a brass bracket-band, heavy brass tension hoop, and super-pretty brass Bacon & Day f-hole flange (super-pretty assuming I don't mess up the nickel-stripping process, which I'll likely post a thread detailing).  The resonator I'll probably be getting in burl-walnut from Cox Banjos.

The bracket-band/flange combo is a three-pronged attack, intended to: 1) serve the primary intended function of attaching the resonator, 2) increase the metal/wood ratio, 3) provide extra stability/structural integrety in thee face of the thinskirt design.  This is in addition to aestetic concerns.

Thanks to all for a productive and civil thread,

David

5strings3picks1banjo - Posted - 04/10/2017:  14:19:05

Wow guys, how did I miss this one. I must have been on holidays. Congratulations on deciding to build and for making your choices.

My response is late but I will speak anyway. I had a Stelling with a Pass rim and it sure was pretty if you like that look. I make this style rim and what I find is you can make 20 Identical rims with the same wood that can have different results due to grain and where the tree grew, what part of the tree your plank came from etc., To me the rim is like a banjo bridge meaning 10 Snuffy Smiths will not all sound alike.

I believe you can custom your banjos voice by rim wood selection and shape/design/machining. If you like highs only you can use dense hard wood, if you like mids use walnut or warm openback cherry, etc. Helix rims and Block rims allow the common man to create their own flavor or customise . Yes knock note can allow you to make an educated guess on what a banjo rim might do. I tap a maple rim with a high tap note, and a cherry rim with low tap note. I know maple is going to be more on the brighter side. Does Huber not have a tuned ring? Surely we all respect what he is doing.

I like what Helix is doing and it's fresh with really good results. Take a look at Nechville banjos, are they traditional no, does it mean they are no good, no they are amazing. Thank God for new ideas such as Nechville and Helix and the many BHO members that come up with new amazing ideas in design and bridge designs, different materials like graphite etc. I dont like graphite but if you live on the ocean, humid weather or ship why not have graphite as it/s stable and won/t change. I like what Tony pass is doing because that is what I do. Sorry I never consider ply rims because I am not set up for them. I do how ever know someone that makes them and showed me how to do it but I prefer the non bending method. 

Somebody said block rims may be weak or be careful with rods? Yes of course you don't want to flex a rim at all on a bluegrass with the main issue is tonering fit. I tested one of my rims, yes I had to know how strong they are and dropped it on the concrete , nothing so I dropped it higher, I had to throw that rim so hard serveral times just to get a crack and even then it did not fly into 24 pieces, it stayed as one piece and I had to force open the crack to break a block off. I could had reglue that if I wanted to and It would have worked. Ply separation is a lot more tricky as a ply can creep oval and stagged layers and cause tonerings to lock on and become dead.

Enjoy your build and please post results/

Helix - Posted - 04/11/2017:  05:00:53

Not many people GOT the Martin Rod the first time by, it adjusts internally, not from the end. And of course it starts looking like a century.

Martin rod

5strings3picks1banjo - Posted - 04/11/2017:  05:15:29

Once again, where have I been. Havent seen that one Helix. Tell me more.

monstertone - Posted - 04/11/2017:  11:35:10

Define "from the ground up" please. If that means merely purchasing a pre made pot of either laminated of block construction, it matters little. Someone else made it. Choose your poison & go for it.

If, on the other hand, you intend to fabricate the pot by either block or laminated method, everything these guys have said has merit.  There are pros & cons with each method of construction. In either method there is the total amount of glue involved in all the joints, and there are those who contend that less is better. Block pot construction has already been covered at length so I'll leave it at that. But, since no one has yet mentioned it, I'll stir the pot (no pun intended) a bit more by adding the following. By steaming & bending the laminations, you are inducing stresses into the wood. The engineering term for this is a pre stressed pot. (for whatever that's worth) 

Add to that, whatever variations in design you come up with, coupled with overall function & appearance,  and you own it! You have something unique that came from your own hands. 

Edited by - monstertone on 04/11/2017 11:41:43

Ken LeVan - Posted - 04/11/2017:  12:03:57

quote:

---

Originally posted by monstertone

 

Define "from the ground up" please. If that means merely purchasing a pre made pot of either laminated of block construction, it matters little. Someone else made it. Choose your poison & go for it.

If, on the other hand, you intend to fabricate the pot by either block or laminated method, everything these guys have said has merit.  There are pros & cons with each method of construction. In either method there is the total amount of glue involved in all the joints, and there are those who contend that less is better. Block pot construction has already been covered at length so I'll leave it at that. But, since no one has yet mentioned it, I'll stir the pot (no pun intended) a bit more by adding the following. By steaming & bending the laminations, you are inducing stresses into the wood. The engineering term for this is a pre stressed pot. (for whatever that's worth) 

Add to that, whatever variations in design you come up with, coupled with overall function & appearance,  and you own it! You have something unique that came from your own hands. 

---

I hear you Monstertone. I think "from scratch" in terms of rims means starting with rough lumber and going from there - I usually start with logs. "From the ground up" can mean specifying various components from various sources, according to a design idea and building the banjo, not necessarily every part.  Not many people, for instance. make the metal parts.

I make three different kinds of rims "from scratch", and don't notice much difference in performance as long as they are properly made with the grain going in the right direction.

The idea of steam bent rims being pre-stressed is interesting; when the slats are steamed, they go through a change for sure and the structure of the wood is altered.  Once the bent slats are glued together, and the wood dries, it relaxes into its new form and is no longer under stress. As far as the glue is concerned, it may be beneficial in some multi-laminated rims because it adds to the stiffness if it's rigid glue

My favorite rim construction is actually a finger-jointed type with an inner lamination. I once made 6 rim blanks from the same maple board so the wood was identical. 2 steam bent laminated, 2 block construction and 2 finger-jointed, Dick Guggenheim and I were going to do a rim test. with archtops and flatheads.  The problem was that the rim blanks when roughed to size all weighed the same, tapped at the same note, and even sounded the same when you rubbed your hands against them,  so had we gone into an elaborate comparison, nobody would have been able to tell the difference.

When David Politzer was in my studio with equipment, I showed them to him, thinking it might be worth some scientific testing, and his assessment was the same - there would be no discernible difference and it would be a waste of time.

The things that really make a difference in rims are stiffness, density, weight, grain direction/orientation and the dimensions of the rim- height and thickness, so you make the rim to match the needs of the individual banjo, not the other way around.

Edited by - Ken LeVan on 04/11/2017 12:13:39

Helix - Posted - 04/11/2017:  17:15:46

Let us let the OP have his thread, he is using Martin's rods on Levan's rim, except Levan has a new thread we've seen before, he made some rods, but posted only after seeing the Martin rod which nobody had ever thought of. Martin also developed the best leg rest.

So check it out, but then we should start another thread just to talk about it, that way "here's what I made" becomes stale and off topic, it's not drift, it's lift. Always talking about what "they" made can block any discussion, gets a topic locked, and we've seen it a lot by the same crowd making the same kind of banjos as if, you know as if. It's called gaslighting, accusing others of the crime of intent.

Play banjo.

5strings3picks1banjo - Posted - 04/11/2017:  19:05:47

Valid point Helix, I myself can be guilty of this at times. Sorry to David OP if I stray off topic.

And David I hope you chose the best rim for the job. What is the main style music you want to play? I am very interested if you get what your expecting. I'm excited for you because the waiting to hear it is an exciting period of the unknown.

easy - Posted - 04/11/2017:  19:21:21

Yes JD (Monstertone), I like Ken's distinction: when I say "from the ground up," I mean sourcing various parts, some of them custom, and assembling the banjo from these parts.  The extent of the actual building/modification I will be doing will likely be cutting and filing a piece of Tusq for the nut (if you're not familiar with this new product then check it out; it's a cheap upgrade that noticeably improved the tone of my banjo [and guitars as well]), stripping the nickel plating from my brass B&D flange, and finishing/aging the brass components ... along with the assembly and actual tweaking of the components.  Perhaps someday I'll learn the requisite woodworking skills to do some actual building, but for now I'll have to let others do the heavy lifting.

easy - Posted - 04/11/2017:  19:43:09

And as to Leon's question, this will primarily be a Scruggs/three-finger-style banjo, but, since I seem to like a more bluegrassy tone in my old-time/clawhammer/frailing than the "standard", you'll likely find me playing a good deal of that on it as well.  I'm not sure if I mentioned it here or in another thread, but I'm using brass knurled-head thumbscrews that will screw into threaded brass inserts in the rim and resonator, so I'll be able to remove the flange just as easily as removing the resonator, making this a rather convertible resonator/open-back banjo.

Brass thumbscrew/threaded insert

 

monstertone - Posted - 04/12/2017:  10:42:36

I yield to Helix' suggestion. Decisions have been made. The time has come for the grasshopper to fly on his own. I look forward to seeing & maybe someday hearing the results.