oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 03/07/2015:  10:18:15

Funny about clawhammer being a "fad". Especially considering that the Tenor banjo is definitely a recent fad (less than 40 years being as generous as possible) in Oirish pseudo-traditional music (a form actually invented by The Chieftains, wherein Traditional Irish tunes are played in Rock & Roll/Early Beatles rhythm - complete with back-beat) while 5 string banjo in many styles (including Clawhammer) is known to go back to the mid 19th Century in Old Time Music. 

Clarence "Tom" Ashley and Uncle Dave Macon both played multiple styles of banjo including Clawhammer. Both were entertainers in the Medicine Shows of the late 19th or early 20th Centuries - a time when the whistle and fiddle were the only regular instruments in Irish traditional, music that was played without any trace of back-beat. Banjo, Guitar, and Drum were the contribution of a few groups of the 1960s and later.

I will admit that Clawhammer Banjo does not work with current Irish Style playing - which is all based on the Chieftains rhythmically, and I've never tried it against the older un-back beat 4/4 style - which, not being a dancer, I don't find at all interesting

Edited by - oldwoodchuckb on 03/07/2015 10:29:33

mwc9725e - Posted - 03/07/2015:  10:23:34

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjopogo

A good post RD, but I wouldn't say that the Irish tradition places a greater emphasis on solo playing.

Based on living in the UK, and on my visits to Ireland, I'd say the Irish tradition places greatest emphasis on drinking whiskey.

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 03/07/2015:  10:55:51

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjopogo

A good post RD, but I wouldn't say that the Irish tradition places a greater emphasis on solo playing.

Thanks.  I wrote about a 750 word response that I lost when my internet momentarily went down!

The short of it is that I was speaking historically, and I would agree that the modern performance tradition is certainly ensemble oriented.

As far as the actual tradition, all of the stylistic elements have been and are maintained in the solo performance which  over the majority

of time was the rule.

Lew H - Posted - 03/07/2015:  11:22:47

I'm sorry to say that I've forgotten the author and source of an essay on folksong cultures that I read some decades ago.  Although it's not about banjo, it may have some bearing on the multiple means of traditional that we have going on here.  The essay, as I recall, basically contrasted indigenous singing in the USA and in Africa.  The people targeted by folklorists in the US typically want to sing old songs just the way they learned them. Change occurs where there are unfamiliar elements (place names, for example) that are replace with the familiar, when misunderstandings renders some words meaningless, when people just forget, etc.  By and large, change is unintentional.  A contrasting African tradition involves improvisation.  You make up a tune to glorify or poke fun at someone in your community.  This may be a one-shot deal--it's sung just on one occasion, but never again.  In other words creating anew is a central part of the tradition. Jazz culture may be similar to that.   Michael's mention of creating new versions of old fiddle tunes (or is that making up new ones that somehow sound old?) for fiddle contests may be a bit analogous to that African song culture. 

That essay was about lyrics, not tunes.  I think the logic can apply to tunes, but I don't knew if the Africans discussed made up new tunes, or just new lyrics--sort  of Woody Guthrie style.  Can we be traditionalists if we take an old recording of a tune and, say, adapt it to our own style or try to embellish it?  Would we then be moving the boundaries of tradition or desecrating it?  

banjopogo - Posted - 03/07/2015:  11:22:50

quote:

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Originally posted by JeroenJ

There's the pitfall of purifying something that was never pure in the first place. All our "traditional" heroes were and are creative and expressive musicians pushing the borders of what they are preserving. When critics, contest juries, musicologists or old men behind computer keyboards start suggesting how musicians should and should not play to be in or out of some subjective box, I'm off.

---

Here's a video of some Dutch Old Time musicians playing "Little Dutch Girl", an Old Time tune from the US:

youtube.com/watch?v=FuvHvvjtfgo

I'd say there's quite a bit of continuity there.  It wouldn't be hard at all for Old Time players from the US or any other country to play with them.

There may be SOME creativity going on, but it's definitely within parameters of a traditional tune played in unison with traditional rhythms.

The ability to play tunes together in jams or sessions is definitely a factor for continuity in Old Time or Irish Trad.

Ironically, the source for that tune, who I think qualifies as a "traditional hero" was Earl Collins:

youtube.com/watch?v=mXqJbAtkqpM

There is a DVD set that contains the whole film of Earl.  As Bess Lomax Hawes interviews him, it's clear that his goal in fiddling is pretty simple and singleminded:  To play like his daddy.

Is he a "creative expressive musician pushing the borders of what he is preserving"?  Not hardly!

Here is a recording of "Glory at the Meeting House" by Bev Baker:

juneberry78s.com/sounds/Bev%20...House.mp3

Here is the better known recording by Luther Strong:

juneberry78s.com/sounds/Luther...House.mp3

They must have been relatives or neighbors- Luther Strong is the stronger fiddler (and definitely an Old Time hero- one of mine in particular), but it's pretty clear to me that Bev Baker is playing the same version, and is even trying to match the phrasing.  At  first they sound different, but that's because the recorder was started during different parts.  And actually, I'm assuming- Luther Strong could just as well have learned the tune from Bev Baker, but played it better.

"Creative expressive musicians pushing the borders of what they are preserving"? I don't think so.

That's not to say that all traditional players were THAT imitative, but even in the ones that were more expressive, there is a LOT of continuity, like Tommy Jarrell.  Tommy Jarrell played some tunes that he learned from his father, and because they are different from the style of the rest of his repertoire, I suspect that they were played pretty close to the way his father played them.

"Creative expressive musicians pushing the borders of what they are preserving" I think would more likely to be found in Bluegrass!!!  And if the pushing the borders gets extreme, you get Newgrass!

When you play breaks, not unison, it allows for a LOT more creative expression, and therefore change can happen more quickly.

banjopogo - Posted - 03/07/2015:  11:41:21

Oh yeah.... re the question in the thread title, the improvement you hear in Luther Strong's version over Bev Baker's version is certainly not trespassing against the tradition.

banjopogo - Posted - 03/07/2015:  12:24:43

quote:

---

Originally posted by R.D. Lunceford

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjopogo

A good post RD, but I wouldn't say that the Irish tradition places a greater emphasis on solo playing.

---

Thanks.  I wrote about a 750 word response that I lost when my internet momentarily went down!

The short of it is that I was speaking historically, and I would agree that the modern performance tradition is certainly ensemble oriented.

As far as the actual tradition, all of the stylistic elements have been and are maintained in the solo performance which  over the majority

of time was the rule.

---

Doncha just HATE it when you lose stuff like that????

I think the ensemble thing goes back a ways, if not large ensembles, at least as duos.  I listened a lot to some tapes of some older Irish musicians playing pipes and fiddle together.  In Ireland I think musicians had opportunities to do both.... play in established communities of musicians, for dances, but also herdsmen playing pipes or flutes had a lot of time to hone their solo playing.  I don't know if the herdsmen played fiddles, though- they aren't as waterproof!  Part of the contrast between Irish and Scottish fiddling is due to the fact that the Irish pipes were tuned to a key fiddlers could easily play along with- and so the ornaments and flow of the fiddle mimics the pipes more.   In Scotland, the pipes were in a different key, and fiddlers didn't often play WITH them for dances.  I think the short-bow style of Scottish fiddling is a result of that separation.

Actually the tuning itself is strong evidence for ensemble playing- I think the pipes and flutes in Ireland have been tuned to D for a long time, which is a good fiddle key.

In the Kerry/Sliabh Luachra tradition you have fiddlers Denis Murphy and Julia Clifford, who were pretty old school.  Definitely a tradition of ensemble playing there.

In contrast, I think there was more isolation on the American frontier... fewer neighbors.  That isolation continued indefinitely in the mountains, and I think that's where a lot of the crooked tunes come from- no need to square things up for dancers or other musicians!  I think the drones and more rhythmic bowing style is evidence that in the early days, fiddlers couldn't count on any accompaniment, but had to provide their own- in effect, the fiddler had to become a one-man band!

The relative squareness of most Irish tunes also indicates that they were played for dances.  The most common dance was a reel, which is a line dance.  If you could get enough people for a line dance, you could probably easily get 2, 3, or 4 musicians from the same community.

Reels started out being popular in the US on the more populated east coast (Virginia Reel, New England contradancing) but I think the square dance replaced it as settlers moved west, because the minimum was four couples, and you didn't need a large long room.  But you could easily add more squares if space and attendance permitted.

At least one of the Irish fiddle fiddling styles in the northwest  (Sligo? Donegal? Both?) features occasional drones and unisons- not as much as in US Old Time, but getting there.   That may be an indication that those fiddlers were more isolated and did more solo fiddling, both at home, and for dances.

banjopogo - Posted - 03/07/2015:  12:45:57

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lew H

I'm sorry to say that I've forgotten the author and source of an essay on folksong cultures that I read some decades ago.  Although it's not about banjo, it may have some bearing on the multiple means of traditional that we have going on here.  The essay, as I recall, basically contrasted indigenous singing in the USA and in Africa.  The people targeted by folklorists in the US typically want to sing old songs just the way they learned them. Change occurs where there are unfamiliar elements (place names, for example) that are replace with the familiar, when misunderstandings renders some words meaningless, when people just forget, etc.  By and large, change is unintentional.  A contrasting African tradition involves improvisation.  You make up a tune to glorify or poke fun at someone in your community.  This may be a one-shot deal--it's sung just on one occasion, but never again.  In other words creating anew is a central part of the tradition. Jazz culture may be similar to that.   Michael's mention of creating new versions of old fiddle tunes (or is that making up new ones that somehow sound old?) for fiddle contests may be a bit analogous to that African song culture. 

That essay was about lyrics, not tunes.  I think the logic can apply to tunes, but I don't knew if the Africans discussed made up new tunes, or just new lyrics--sort  of Woody Guthrie style.  Can we be traditionalists if we take an old recording of a tune and, say, adapt it to our own style or try to embellish it?  Would we then be moving the boundaries of tradition or desecrating it?  

 

 

---

I may have read the same essay.  In fact, I took a class by Bess Lomax Hawes on American Folk Music, and if she wasn't the author of the essay you are thinking of, she was making much the same points in the class.

Drumming is of huge importance in African cultures.   I started playing drums a year and a half ago, and oftentimes the rhythms suggest melodies to me.  When I improvise on electric guitar, I start with a rhythm in my head.   And I think I've read that fairly often,  rock songs (rock is derived from blues) were written from the rhythm up- the band would get together to rehearse or record, the drummer would be warming up, and the rhythms would suggest a melody and even words to the other musicians.

In contrast, rhythm instruments are somewhat optional in more European or European derived music.  The melody is first and central, then the rhythm is added.  Bodhran players among Irish Trad musicians, and spoons or bones players among Old Time musicians don't get a whole lot of respect!!!

I wasn't thinking so much of the TUNES in contest fiddling.... the tune choices at least for hoedowns are often the most traditional part.  The backup guitar is reminisicient of jazz, and extra chromatic notes are added to the tunes to reflect the backup chords.  Drones aren't used much, and the bowing isn't as overtly rhythmic.   The result is quite different than Old Time, even if they are playing the same tune!

Edited by - banjopogo on 03/07/2015 12:50:43

Tish - Posted - 03/08/2015:  19:42:21

I agree with all the points of view listed so far. I think that playing any "traditional old time tune" should be played as you perceive it to be and enjoy the hell out of playing it. But.... If for instance you want to share that tune with a "newbie" like myself, it would help to reference how it was played by an "old time player". "Shelvin Rock" played by Ernie Carpenter is different than Burl Hammons version but both are revered as "Old Time". So I think to protect the tradition of the sound we should at least know and remember how it used to be played and sound before we make it "our own"....

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 03/08/2015:  21:20:05

quote:

---

Originally posted by RG

R.D., you nailed it Devil Dog..not much else to add...one of the best posts I've read on this site...that post should be made into a permanent post on this forum topic...

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Thanks very much RG!

banjopogo - Posted - 03/08/2015:  23:43:45

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tish

I agree with all the points of view listed so far. I think that playing any "traditional old time tune" should be played as you perceive it to be and enjoy the hell out of playing it. But.... If for instance you want to share that tune with a "newbie" like myself, it would help to reference how it was played by an "old time player". "Shelvin Rock" played by Ernie Carpenter is different than Burl Hammons version but both are revered as "Old Time". So I think to protect the tradition of the sound we should at least know and remember how it used to be played and sound before we make it "our own"....

---

I think that's a good point.  At one point, I decided to try a high-tech tune list, instead of just a word-processed tune list.  So I did a database version with  a field for "Source".  At first I wrote where I myself learned it, but then I started using "The Fiddler's Companion" to find out what region it was from.  I found to my slight surprise that I seem to have learned a lot of tunes from Virginia!  That probably has to do with the fact that the Galax Fiddler's Convention was kind of a jumping off point for folklorists and tune collectors when I was learning to play banjo and fiddle.

My version of Shelvin' Rock is from Henry Reed, so it's a Virginia version.

Anyway, the Fiddlers Companion lists source fiddlers and recordings, so if there's a tune where you don't know the source, you can find one.

Here's the results for "Shelvin' Rock":

ceolas.org/cgi-bin/ht2/ht2-fc2...n%27+Rock

chip arnold - Posted - 03/09/2015:  05:16:34

In the FWIW department, for tunes from the source as well as standard notation to the fiddle version, you can't beat the Milliner - Koken collection. If it's not in this book, you probably haven't heard it! This is an incredible resource.



mudthumper.com/fiddletunesbook.html

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 03/09/2015:  20:13:34

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjopogo

I think the ensemble thing goes back a ways, if not large ensembles, at least as duos.  I listened a lot to some tapes of some older Irish musicians playing pipes and fiddle together.  In Ireland I think musicians had opportunities to do both....   Part of the contrast between Irish and Scottish fiddling is due to the fact that the Irish pipes were tuned to a key fiddlers could easily play along with- and so the ornaments and flow of the fiddle mimics the pipes more.   In Scotland, the pipes were in a different key, and fiddlers didn't often play WITH them for dances.  I think the short-bow style of Scottish fiddling is a result of that separation.

Actually the tuning itself is strong evidence for ensemble playing- I think the pipes and flutes in Ireland have been tuned to D for a long time, which is a good fiddle key.

In contrast, I think there was more isolation on the American frontier... fewer neighbors.  That isolation continued indefinitely in the mountains, and I think that's where a lot of the crooked tunes come from- no need to square things up for dancers or other musicians!  I think the drones and more rhythmic bowing style is evidence that in the early days, fiddlers couldn't count on any accompaniment, but had to provide their own- in effect, the fiddler had to become a one-man band!

At least one of the Irish fiddle fiddling styles in the northwest  (Sligo? Donegal? Both?) features occasional drones and unisons- not as much as in US Old Time, but getting there.   That may be an indication that those fiddlers were more isolated and did more solo fiddling, both at home, and for dances.

---

I agree that there was no doubt a good amount of duo playing, but I guess I don't see that as "ensemble" playing.  Perhaps a difference in our personal definitions.  Musicologists will usually tell you that the last quarter of the 18th C. is when Irish music  assumed its present form.  If we go a little bit into the 19th C., we find that instruments like the Uilleann Pipes had died out, being preserved by a comparatively small number of musicians from whose playing the instrument was revived towards the end of the century.  Instruments like the accordion and concertina were not present in a big way also until the end of the century, and the mandolin and tenor banjo even later.  The guitar and bouzouki only really date as far back as the 1970's.  The bodhran was a regional curiosity until the '60's or '70's.  There was of course a flute and whistle tradition, but the flute was really a semi-regional entity, the strongest traditions existing in Sligo and Leitrim.  Throught the 1800's the fiddle was the only truly pan-Irish instrument.  The folk-revival was really responsible for reviving different diverse elements that existed marginally prior to that.

The fiddling in especially SW Donegal was informed by a local, now defunct Highland Pipe tradition, and the fiddlers there (Doherty family for example) took much of their repertoire, and their system of bowing and ornamentation from that instrument.  Much of their playing was single-string as they were emulating the chanter and not the drones.

I think that rather than droning and unisons being the result of having to be a "one-man band", those stylistic elements developed in areas that had only a fiddle tradition because the fiddler had no other instrumental reference point than the fiddle itself.  Playing on two strings at once is the most natural thing in the world unless one is trying to emulate an instrument that can only play single notes, and therefore adopts a single string style as a result.  Finger ornamentation like cuts and rolls is actually necessary on wind instruments, but is dispensible on the fiddle.  Thus players in places like fiddlecentric Tyrone played with very little ornamentation. 

Once we get to the U.S., we have to ask ourselves why the fiddle made it over, but the assorted pipes, flutes, and whistles did not.  Perhaps it has to do with the fiddle being pre-eminent during that time being the reason.  Additionally, prior to the 1840's the bulk of Irish immigrants were "Scotch-Irish" from the north of Ireland, and coincidentally, musicologists also date the formulation of old-time American fiddling to the same period the Irish style was achieving its present form, so it couldn't have influenced American fiddling much if at all.  What we may be hearing in the Appalachians is an archaic northern Irish / Lowland Scottish style, or possibly even a very old English style of fiddling.  There were places in 18th C. Lowland Scotland that were known to have danced reels to the fiddle exclusively.  Sounds curiously like Appalachia with the fiddle being the exclusive dance instrument (originally) and a lack of triple metre tunes.

chip arnold - Posted - 03/10/2015:  06:08:31

Thanks R.D. for that. I've never really dug into the history of our music much further back than the old people I actually knew. Your post taught me more than I've learned in 40+ years!

maryzcox - Posted - 03/10/2015:  16:38:04

LOL :) Lets take a look at "All through the Night"  --a very ancient Welsh tune. It mostly is heard these days as possibly an ancient Welsh hymm sung in some churches.  I heard an episcapalian friend (I'm not) singing it one day and thought it would sound pretty on the banjo--worked out a simple version, liked it and recorded it on A  Secret Life of Banjo. I played it for my mom one day after that and to my surprise she began singing along with the words. 

When I asked her where she learned that song--she said she learned it in  the public elementary school in California in the 1930s and she remembered it.  

Which kind of sparked my interest as to how this old Welsh tune would end up in the California school system.  Did you know that starving Welsh miners marched as protesters in the streets of California & you'll never guess what there marching song was ?? All through the night.  

Now--this tune is not particularly considered to be in the old time repretoire (spel?)--but--if it had been handed down in the mountains of NC, Va, WVA, Tenn--no matter how crooked or out of tune--it would be treasured by old time enthusiasts--but because it came down in tact through hymnals to Florida and through Welsh miners protesting in California--its not a true old time tune--although it is ancient and quite beautiful and fits the voice of a banjo quite well.  

maryzcox.com

maryzcox - Posted - 03/10/2015:  16:43:36

LOL :) Lets take a look at "All through the Night"  --a very ancient Welsh tune. It mostly is heard these days as possibly an ancient Welsh hymn sung in some churches.  I heard an Episcapalian (spel?) friend (I'm not) singing it one day and thought it would sound pretty on the banjo--worked out a simple version, liked it and recorded it on A  Secret Life of Banjo. I played it for my mom one day after that and to my surprise she began singing along with the words. 

When I asked her where she learned that song--she said she learned it in  the public elementary school in California in the 1940s and she remembered it.  

Which kind of sparked my interest as to how this old Welsh tune would end up in the California school system.  Did you know that starving Welsh miners marched as protesters in the streets of California & you'll never guess what there marching song was ?? All through the night.  

Now--this tune is not particularly considered to be in the old time repretoire (spel?)--but--if it had been handed down in the mountains of NC, Va, WVA, Tenn--no matter how crooked or out of tune--it would be treasured by old time enthusiasts--but because it came down in tact through hymnals to Florida and through Welsh miners protesting in California--its not  considered a true old time tune--although it is ancient and quite beautiful and fits the voice of a banjo quite well.  

maryzcox.com

Lew H - Posted - 03/10/2015:  19:04:51

Mary, that's the most sensible thing that people have said here.  There's actually a lot traditions, and sometime they intersect and cross paths.  Thank you!

banjoak - Posted - 03/10/2015:  22:20:53

Sometimes it was just simple folks - just playing what they like, what they think sounds good; and what they know how to play. Not really thinking about preserving anything. As mostly non-commercial music they were not overly concerned with needing innovation and novelty*, or overly conscious need in making their own sound.

When they heard other ideas; some of it got rejected simply because they just didn't like it, or at least didn't see it fitting with the music they played; but if they heard something they liked and could see fitting in, then they adopted and or adapted it into what they played. If they heard a good song or tune they wanted to play. As well many didn't play tunes that they didn't really like just to keep the idea of tradition.

There often seems to be pretty good evidence of cross culture influence and more popular aspects that work themselves in. Players like Henry Reed, played rags, polkas, schottisches, clogs, foxtrots, two-steps, even waltzes - fairly modern influences for late nineteenth century. *there is often a bit of influence of popular fashion, especially if playing for others to dance.

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 03/11/2015:  13:40:47

I've been told (by US born people of Welsh descent) that All Through The Night is as close to a Welsh national Anthem as the English will put up with. I have to admit that that and Men of Harlech are the only Welsh songs I ever remember hearing - and it has been so long sine I've heard the latter that I no longer have any idea what it sounds like.

Edited by - oldwoodchuckb on 03/11/2015 13:41:40

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 03/11/2015:  13:47:41

quote:

---

Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb

I've been told (by US born people of Welsh descent) that All Through The Night is as close to a Welsh national Anthem as the English will put up with. I have to admit that that and Men of Harlech are the only Welsh songs I ever remember hearing - and it has been so long sine I've heard the latter that I no longer have any idea what it sounds like.

---

  I just looked it up on youtube.

youtube.com/watch?v=DRtnWVvDX6k

And here is one from the movie Zulu - one of the best "war" films ever made

youtube.com/watch?v=0NuTaQsMNaE

And as it turns out Men of Harlech IS the Welsh National Anthem.

Edited by - oldwoodchuckb on 03/11/2015 13:57:24

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 03/11/2015:  15:04:52

quote:

---

Originally posted by chip arnold

Thanks R.D. for that. I've never really dug into the history of our music much further back than the old people I actually knew. Your post taught me more than I've learned in 40+ years!

---

Thanks Chip, I have to admit though that it is just conjecture.  I haven't been able to find parts for my time-machine for a long time now!!!

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 03/12/2015:  10:13:01

RD,

You'll find everything you need at Marvellus Maximus's Used Time Machine Emporium. 55907 Appian Way, Plentium, Rome - 235 BC.

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 03/12/2015:  20:15:29

Thanks Tony.
Could I trouble you for a lift?

cluck - Posted - 03/19/2015:  23:13:02

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brooklynbanjoboy

Good morning BHO citizens:

My question is about how a traditional musician -- a musician playing traditional music -- gets better at the craft, improves. 

More specifically, does improvement (musically) end up trespassing against traditional music?  

---

I would say yes, absolutely if you are not talking about technical mastery by "improvement".  Improvement is fusing new/external concepts to the "tradition".  Tradition itself is an illusion because it is always comprised of a fusion.  In the case of Old Time, sounds from Africa fused with sounds from Europe somehow somewhere and became the beautiful thing we hear today.

woody213 - Posted - 03/19/2015:  23:40:18

Look at covers that transcend genres. Metallica's Whiskey in the Jar and Five Finger Death Punch House of the Rising Sun. They sound phenomenal but are really far from the 'traditional' versions. Innovation is what brings new types of music around. Without innovation there'd be no Rock and Roll, or if what I know of banjo history is correct, banjo music. It was derived by innovation when people had to change what they were doing because of what they had available to them

ceemonster - Posted - 03/22/2015:  19:26:36

[[I'm thinking maybe Celtic Trad's primary language isn't English? I really can't follow what he's trying to say. ]] i believe he's trying to say that, historically and traditionally, 5-string banjo has not been an accepted instrument in the canon and parameters of irish traditional music, which is true....and mr. lunceford has provided much insight as to WHY that is. i'd differ just to the extent of noting, it's not so much that traditional irish music is "solo" music, it is that it is largely a MELODIC tradition, whether played solo or in a ceili band. it is a linear melody-music tradition, which as mr. lunceford points out, is more the purview of the tenor/plectrum banjo than the five string, which loans itself more readily to arpeggiated partial melodies complemented by filler drones.



however, one can adapt/arrange 5-string to play melodically. and if one does so with taste and facility, the 5-string is fine for irish music, even though historically, it is not the "done thing." Celtic Trad's comments are right in line with a tradition in irish music of purists weighing in to inveigh that this or that instrument is not really traditional. the great irish box player Tony MacMahon has nearly caused riots with views of this sort, including famously opining that the accordion is not a real traditional irish instrument. which is true in a historic sense, though accordions have been played in irish music for probly the better part of a century, and accordion playing which sticks to the irish melody-music style, and does not bombard the listener with tasteless chordal noise that is out of whack with the melodic character of the idiom, has come to be accepted in irish music. 

it is the obliviousness of some players of historically nontraditional instruments, to the need to be sensitive to the parameters of the style, that attracts the ire, nay, hatred, of many a traditionalist, including regarding banjos.  Piano accordion has been a huge hate-magnet in irish music...but recent years have seen a shift in this due to the advent of a new generation of exquisite and exciting players who are playing PA with great taste and sensitivity to the traditional style...



 if you scroll down on tony furtado's site page linked here, there are clips available of tracks from his new EP, including a set of irish reels on 5-string, starting with the tune "black-haired lass." sounds pretty lovely....wonder if that is his prucha, very nice deep tone...



tonyfurtado.com/

for comparison, here is a link to a set by the beautiful traditional irish banjo player (4-string) angelina carberry, whew, that record is a favorite of mine....full of haunting modal tunes.  there are numerous other clips of her playing there as well....

youtube.com/watch?v=SGAlIeexfSs

Edited by - ceemonster on 03/22/2015 19:38:45

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 03/23/2015:  16:57:35

quote:

---

Originally posted by ceemonster

...it's not so much that traditional irish music is "solo" music, it is that it is largely a MELODIC tradition...

---

Allow me to offer an Allen Feldman quote (from the Northern Fiddler) as authoritative:

"...the orientation in Irish Music has always been on the soloist; ensemble playing was not a strong practice in Ireland.  Thus the emphasis in the music is on the master musician who can engrave his own distinct identity on the repertoire through superior technique and inventiveness." 

I think one especially telling confirmation of this is that even in ensemble playing, the lead instruments virtually always play in unison.  This does not point to a developed tradition of ensemble performance where one would expect harmonies, counterpoint, and the taking of "breaks".  Now a little of this has definitely crept into the music, but it is a very late development and is the product of outside influences.  If one surveys the recorded body of Traditional Irish music, the amount of recordings featuring a solo instrument or a solo instrument and one backing instrument far, far exceeds any other genre.

Edited by - R.D. Lunceford on 03/23/2015 17:00:22

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 03/23/2015:  22:34:57

youtube.com/watch?v=HJWUpmxfxRs

Wait for it... at the 1:35 mark.

100% complete.  Back-up would ruin it.

JanetB - Posted - 03/24/2015:  06:02:17

Thanks for your clarity of explanation, RD. You're like the Irish soloist who doesn't need any other instrument to clearly express the melody and essence of the tune.