Parker135 - Posted - 12/12/2014:  15:56:18

Armed with just enough knowledge to be dangerous after reading several posts here about converting a Goodtime to nylon strings, I ordered my no-knot tailpiece and two sets of Aquila Red strings.  This is to be my camping banjo.  I also pulled the spike and installed a conventional pip.  All went well in installing the strings, using either a bowline-knotted loop or actually using the no-knot as designed.  I've been taking lessons in double D tuning (aDADE) lately and intended to tune the Goodtime that way.  it will probably come as no surprise to some on here that I have broken three strings already.  They seemed to be breaking at the bridge, so I opened up the bridge slots.  I also added a little pencil graphite.  That seemed to help (luckily the strings are long and gave me a couple of attempts) a little.  After another break, I started just laying the string over the bridge to get it close to pitch without pulling it through the slot. I almost got the lighter strings to pitch, and then they failed at the tailpiece.  Funny.....I just heard another one let go while typing this!.  So....do I need a different string set to go to the double D tuning?  Am I possibly rushing the time required for the strings to stretch?  Will the same set of strings allow me to tune between double D and standard G tuning?  I'm starting to appreciate the durability of steel strings, but I'd really like to get nylon strings to work on this banjo.  

banjukebox - Posted - 12/12/2014:  16:10:37

They are now selling Aquila sets with four standard white medium gauge classic nylguts (1,2,3, and 5) along with an unwound, red 4th string. Whites don't break too easily. Neither does the heavier gauge red 4th. That's what I would recommend.

Parker135 - Posted - 12/12/2014:  16:30:04

Interesting! The fourth string is the only one that didn't break. Can I expect the white strings to have enough tuning range to go back and forth between G and D tunings? Thanks for your reply.

maneckep - Posted - 12/12/2014:  16:39:06

The problem is probably the no-knot tailpiece. If you bought a cheap one they are known for breaking any kind of nylon strings. I bought a couple from Rickard Banjos and never had a problem tuning to A or D. The Rickard ones are very smooth where the strings tie. The cheap ones are very sharp. The Rickard ones run about $20 or so - only a few dollars more than the cheap ones. I highly recommend his no-knots.

rudy - Posted - 12/12/2014:  16:41:54

aDADE is too high a tuning to use on a stock scale length banjo running Aquila reds (or standards for that matter.)  Drop down to double C tuning and capo at the second fret for aDADE tuning.

String breakage at the bridge has nothing to do with the tailpiece.

Edited by - rudy on 12/12/2014 16:45:56

Parker135 - Posted - 12/12/2014:  16:44:39

Okay, I'll go ahead and try the Rickard no-knot as well. I read several posts about the cheapo no-knots typically available and took the time to try to de-burr mine. After fooling with the no-knot process a few times, I switch to knotted loops which avoid some of the sharp edges. If you've had good luck with the Rickard version, I'll give one a try as it's kind of fun to use them as designed.

Parker135 - Posted - 12/12/2014:  16:46:08

Hmmm, I was wondering about the range of tuning. It seemed like I probably could make double C okay.

maplevega - Posted - 12/12/2014:  17:24:19

I have Rickard no knot....they are the best. I also use Southbend mono fishing  line, 20,30,40,50 lbs. Rarely have any breakage and I have a very cheap endless supply of strings.

banjukebox - Posted - 12/12/2014:  19:11:13

Unless they are breaking at the tailpiece, changing it would not help. But remember, the string is stretched significantly, so sometimes it's hard to tell where the breakage point is located.
Yes, you should be able to tune from C to D and G to A without a capo (without breakage). It's much quicker with a capo, though.

JimInAlabama - Posted - 12/12/2014:  20:32:21

I also switched from steel to Aquila Reds a couple months ago and had issues early on but I "think" I've got a process that works for me figured out.  I've learned that I have to let them stretch in really slow .... REALLY slow.  I initially tighten them very little, appx 5 or 6 steps below standard, and let 'em sit overnight.  Then I take 'em up to three steps flat and let 'em sit another day before I take them up to standard G or Double C.  That process stopped the random breakage but after doing that I was breaking strings at the bowline knot so I switched to a simple "figure eight on a bight" knot and that's working much better for me.  I've read that some people tune them up to A and Double D but I've had some very experienced players tell me the Reds won't hold up to that much tension, so I do what Rudy suggested, I play at home in Double C and G, then capo up 2 frets when I'm playing with others and need to get to D and A.  I really don't want to install spikes so I'm using a 5th string capo, which I don't like, but it works. 

I don't have much experience with the original Nylguts but the Reds are a different animal, I think that some things that work with the originals probably will not work with the Reds.   So far my experience with the Reds has been a major PITA but I really like the feel and sound, so I'm not giving up on them yet.  I'm now about a month in with the current set and they're doing ok.  Bring them up to pitch slowly!

BTW, I'm using an inexpensive import no-knot and have not had a single break at the tailpiece, but I use a loop over the post.  I haven't found anyone who's had good luck with using the Reds going through the no-knot slot.  I think the edge of the slot in the post is gonna cut the strings.

Edited by - JimInAlabama on 12/12/2014 20:40:47

davidppp - Posted - 12/12/2014:  22:49:36

As someone who's been very happy with Reds, I second the notion that scale length versus pitch is the issue.

Camping banjo?  What about fishing line?   A small investment will buy you a lifetime supply.

Edited by - davidppp on 12/12/2014 22:52:40

Dubl-M - Posted - 12/13/2014:  04:44:57

I have had good luck with nylons on my Goodtime. I use the original tailpiece and loop around the prong and finish on top with loop and wrap like you would use on a classical guitar. I have used LaBella and Aquila Classic with red #4. I did not change any slots at nut or bridge, but I am using a Grover compensated bridge, not the stock bridge. I also pried the 5th string spike a little for clearance. I have not had good luck with the red string on #4, it breaks shortly after installation so I look forward to trying the gradual tuneup process mentioned above. Hmm, that requires planning and patience. Oh well. As suggested elsewhere, I tune to double C or open G and capo from there. I tend to leave a banjo with nylon strings in one specific tuning and not jump around like I would with steel strings. I can't point to any data but I feel the nylon strings develop a "set" and respond to the relative stability of one tuning.

Edited by - Dubl-M on 12/13/2014 04:47:11

rudy - Posted - 12/13/2014:  05:17:25

It's probably worth watching Mimmo's official "How to install reds" video.  Although is shows only the reentrant 4th string on ukulele, there's no reason why it wouldn't apply to all red installations.

Pay particular attention towards the end of the video where he pre-stretches the string at several spots along it's entire length.  He referred to this stretching process as being necessary to prevent premature breakage in another topic here on the forum.

Edited by - rudy on 12/13/2014 05:19:49

RV6 - Posted - 12/13/2014:  05:40:30

I tried the "Reds" when I first started with polymer strings.  I took several days to bring them up to tune and still had breakage problems (mid-span.  Not at the T.P., bridge or nut)

Based on Oldwoodchuckb and other's reviews of Chris Sands strings, I switched over to Sands mediums and have used them on four banjos.  I think I had just one string break and that was at the tuner post.  There were some sharp edges so I de-burred the tuner holes and have been getting along fine since. 

When installing the Sand's strings, I pull them tight (except the wound 4th) on the post and lock the strings in and then pull up, mid-span, tighten, pull up, etc.  I let them set awhile tuned a couple of steps low for a few hours and then continue with the pull & tighten routine and tune them to double "C" or open "G".  I do this over a one day period.  The strings will slacken  slightly for a few days and then reach stability

I capo up to double "D" and "A".  Don't want to push my luck.

Parker135 - Posted - 12/13/2014:  05:43:50

This is really helpful. I'm not too impressed with the cheapo no-knot, so I'll probably try the Rickard one. I see a really nice American made one out there for $50, but this is a Goodtime afterall. It also sounds like I could be experimenting with the original tailpiece at least for now. I think I'll put it back on and try the second set of Reds I have here. I'd rather not mess with a capo, but it certainly makes sense. I don't play with others (yet), so double C would work just as well. I tried Perfection loops, and found that a pain. The bowline was easier, but I believe some of the breaks occurred there, so I'm going to try the "figure eight on a bight" knot. That looks pretty easy. And fishing line. With two such suggestions here, I'll probably try that also. I'm not needing concert grade, just something to have fun with that's probably a little softer sounding than steel strings while hanging out in and around our camper. This is a great forum. Thanks, Guys.

rudy - Posted - 12/13/2014:  06:05:04

Fishing line (IMHO) sounds like you're playing under water.  You may think it's fine, though.

BHO member "Nuts" has a pictorial for tying a simple overhand knot that he uses successfully for Nylgut strings.  Here's one of the photos from his BHO home page:

Parker135 - Posted - 12/13/2014:  06:20:19

I like that....... Sounds terrible, but you may like it.

I just tried the figure eight on a bight, and it was WAY easier than anything else I've tried. I thought the simple overhand loop would probably slip, but maybe not. I jumped right into making this more complicated than it probably needs to be.

Fathand - Posted - 12/13/2014:  06:38:32

quote:

---

Originally posted by rudy

aDADE is too high a tuning to use on a stock scale length banjo running Aquila reds (or standards for that matter.)  Drop down to double C tuning and capo at the second fret for aDADE tuning.

String breakage at the bridge has nothing to do with the tailpiece.

---

I agree with this, It is usually called double C tuning for that reason and is capoed to play with fiddle players. Also if breaking at the bridge, the tailpiece is not the problem.

maneckep - Posted - 12/13/2014:  07:55:51

Parker did mention in his original message "I almost got the lighter strings to pitch, and then they failed at the tailpiece" - so I do believe replacing a cheap no-knot would benefit him.

Parker135 - Posted - 12/13/2014:  08:46:14

Correct, I broke some at the tail piece, and then when I got that sorted out fairly well, they seemed to also break as I was pulling them through the bridge slots (based on the remains). The only place I haven't broken them is at the tuner end, knock wood.

Shawn Hoover - Posted - 12/13/2014:  09:06:29

Good tips and experimentation here, thanks. The results are interesting with some seeing less breakage by tuning up slowly and for others that didn't help.

I just did a Nylgut reds conversion, myself. 25.7" scale, Fielding tailpiece. I broke at least one tuning up to open F and a couple more at G and double C, all at the knot, a mix of bowline and overhand loop. That was all pretty much right away and what's on there now is stabilizing. I gave up on the high G and used a Sands, though.

It seems reasonable to expect that one could put on a brand new string, tune it up to pitch, and play some measure of stability. I hadn't seen Mimmo's video, though, and will try that if I happen upon another set of reds. He would know!

Parker135 - Posted - 12/13/2014:  09:29:34

I just put the Deering tailpiece back on, strung it up using all "figure eight on a bight" knots which seem to distribute the stress on the strings a little better. I installed this second (and last for now) set of Reds with a little tension and no bridge, then put the bridge under the strings and have it resting well below my double C goal. The Deering tailpiece was way easier to deal with than the cheap no-knot. I'll see how this goes and then add a Rickard no-knot to my wish list for Christmas. I went ahead and filed the slot in the new pip so the 5th rests on the fret in anticipation of capo-ing it at some point.

ClayTech - Posted - 12/13/2014:  10:41:35

I have tried tuning my nylgut strung banjo up to double D, and it's just way too tight for the strings. Even if they don't snap, they just don't sound good that high. Tune to double C and capo up. I've got a cheap no-knot, and it's never been the cause of nylguts breaking. Getting caught up in the bridge or nut are the only things that have ever caused problems. Once I got the slots opened up enough, I can tune new nylgut strings right up to pitch very quickly without problems.