Billybiltbanjo - Posted - 09/30/2014:  11:26:55

Nice find! The fellow that through it in the garbage must have regarded banjos in the same fashion as the person that made this sign

jims38134 - Posted - 09/30/2014:  12:01:18

My recommendation for metal cleaning/polishing:  make a paste of BonAmi with some water and scrub with a cloth using lots of elbow grease.  Metal parts on a Slingerland (pic on my home page) were extremely grungy and hooks were very rusty when I got her.  Has stayed looking great for the past 5 years or so.

acehardware.com/product/index...._14858908

Jim

davidwigal - Posted - 09/30/2014:  12:58:30

quote:

---

Originally posted by davidwigal

I don't know amigo- these hooks they look pretty brass to me; and the magnet, she does not stick 

---

This is the back of the Stewart pictured, and on the dowl-stick it is also stamped "2nd Grade"

I am thinking that maybe the year has something to do with it; but you know it is kind of weird because I have an 1880 Buckbee who's tension-hooks are most definitely steel- we're missing something here and I hope that someone has an answer.

Peace banjo Amigos 

Edited by - davidwigal on 09/30/2014 12:59:47

davidwigal - Posted - 09/30/2014:  17:03:33

My apologies Ms. Jun for misguiding your thread with my petty metallurgic rants.

So how is the restoration going? Have you had any success in taking off the flange yet?

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 09/30/2014:  17:12:42

David, I would think that perhaps what might have been happening is that sometimes a particular supplier of hooks fell behind and the banjo manufacturer(s) had to go to an alternate source for a while, who may have used a different material. But who really knows. For some strange reason, those guys from the 1800's never seem to want to talk about the details of their production methods.

Bill, I think we've all probably seen that "perfect pitch" sign. I've always found it a little funny, because my brother used to play the accordian, and I play the banjo. My family didn't appear to mind, but I'm sure the neighbors at times probably wanted to test their own pitch recognition.

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 09/30/2014:  17:20:19

David (again), I don't think there's any need for apologies. Knowing a little metallurgy will probably help a person in a restoration project. I know that I want to know what might be lurking under the plating on my banjos, and might not know of any ways of testing or what to use when polishing certain metals.

I, too, though, hope that we all aren't confusing the OP with our barely germaine comments, and wish her all the success in the world with her restoration project.

And Ms. 3machina, I also hope you keep us all posted. It's a learning process for all of us, too. You may come up with unexpected ways to cope with unexpcted issues, and we can all benefit from that.

Rick Turner - Posted - 09/30/2014:  17:25:42

Vintage instrument experts know exactly what the specs were on every model of every brand ever.

Until they find the anomaly. And the next one. And the next one.

davidwigal - Posted - 09/30/2014:  17:46:49

Right on George I was thinking that too about the manufactures using different suppliers, materials, and whatnot. I don't think that I am much alone in appreciating an old banjo's patina of a brass base-metal where most of the original nickel/ "German silver" plating has worn off- it just looks real antiquey and old-timey.

I have to admit that researching, investigating, and discussing the different makes, models, builders, and construction processes of these beautiful instruments is definitely one of the great joys in belonging to this awesome banjo community.

Play on awesome banjo folk, play on 

jun3machina - Posted - 10/01/2014:  09:12:28

davidwigal~ no apologies necessary!

I am working on this in small bits, as i have a lil one at home under the age of two and she'd like to tinker with all the small parts as much as I want to.
I managed to get the arm rest and hooks off yesterday, need to invest in the proper sized banjo wrench, as the only thing I could find that would work was a regular wrench. (The banjo wrench i have for my bacon is too large) It was stupid of me and took me ten times longer than a banjo wrench would have....but i was determined to get them off. and I did, so they're all nicely lined up in order to be cleaned off today.

i also spent several hours last nite reading up on chrome polish recommendations, ways to strip off the rust (vinegar works for everything!) and the various opinions of collectors of old banjos in regards to patinas/corrosion/etc. I probably will not try to get this spic and span, as I do love a good patina myself, so I am looking at just getting the dirt and dust off, shine it up just a lil bit...

I did hear several folks discussing 'oiling' their hardware to prevent further corosion...would that be in reference to a chrome polish like simichrome?? im going to go out and pick some up today, as i need some oil for my nova anyways...

so so far I have reglued the chip in the headstock, cleaned fret board and neck as much as possible without a fret job (as I think it needs as the frets have indents from the strings), reglued the small piece of ebony trim that had come unglued and removed all hooks in preparation for a cleaning.

ordered a new head from elderly as well, and plan on taking the flange off and playing it openback :)

Rick Turner - Posted - 10/01/2014:  09:59:46

SimiChrome will do a great job on the nickel plated parts. Possible long term protection might be BoeShield (developed by Boeing for airplane metals) or Renaissance wax (developed for the British Museum for protection of antique metals stuff...like armor). I would not use any oil on hardware as it attracts dust and dirt. Also, do not hesitate to nearly completely disassemble the banjo to make cleaning and polishing easier. I'd stop at the little brackets that support the tone ring...don't pull them out of the rim. For any gluing operations, use hot hide glue or fish glue, both being appropriate for vintage restorations. Old Brown Glue has a good reputation for being an easy to use, pre-mixed hot hide glue, and you can heat it up in small batches in a microwave oven...carefully. See frets.com for info on HHG, and Google Mario Proulx for his system of using HHG.

BDCA - Posted - 10/01/2014:  10:19:01

I use Boeshield for lubricating aluminum and other non ferrous metals. It is an excellent lubricant. If you know and one who shoots and reloads their own ammunition, they may have a vibrator for cleaning fired brass. it works a treat for banjo parts like brackets and nuts. I use walnut shells and run it overnight. Absolutely safe for plating.

Cya!

Bob

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 10/01/2014:  11:08:50

Be careful with vinegar. It's acidic and somewhat corrosive. Try throwing some nails in a glass of vinegar and watch what happens to them. Vinegar will also weaken old glue joints; some piano techs even use it to remove certain small parts. Personally, I wouldn't get it anywhere near a banjo.

jun3machina - Posted - 10/01/2014:  11:13:36

Note taken on the vinegar :)

Tried to find the powder cleaner recommended earlier, but seems we out in here in Cali have no places that stock it. Any objections to good ole soapy water?

CEParagon124 - Posted - 10/01/2014:  12:24:57

Jun, get a 1/4" palm socket driver similar to this one and the appropriately sized deep well 1/4" sockets and you'll have a banjo wrench for any sized nut you'll ever come across.

dayton.com.tw/exec/product.php...&lg=E

Charlie Noyes

davidwigal - Posted - 10/01/2014:  12:32:46

Soapy water would probably be your best bet; and if that doesn't work so great you can always try some thing else.

Wow this is so exciting, thanks for taking photos; it's like all of us here on the Hang-Out are along for the restorational-journey too 

Wow that's a cool little ratchet, thanks Charles

Edited by - davidwigal on 10/01/2014 12:34:52

jun3machina - Posted - 10/01/2014:  20:57:50

That is one cool socket wrench!!

etparadox - Posted - 10/01/2014:  21:09:07

I do believe that the paramount nuts are 9/32" 

Rick Turner - Posted - 10/01/2014:  21:26:48

Yeah, we went through that when it came time to disassemble Eli's "C". But a 9/32" long socket on a palm driver is a good thing! Had to go to two auto parts stores to find one, though.

jun3machina - Posted - 10/01/2014:  22:36:36

thanks for the note on size. im going to see if my dad has one i can borrrow...

CEParagon124 - Posted - 10/02/2014:  07:47:30

The palm socket driver and sockets I have were included in a larger set from Home Depot.

I didn't see a single palm driver at HD or Lowes when I checked yesterday.

I know you do not have to buy a whole set of deep well 1/4" sockets to get the ones you need to accommodate the various sized banjo nuts.

These little drivers are also good for tightening/loosening the nuts on top of tuners. Not so much mechanical advantage involved that one might twist something in two or over-tighten a head.

I'm loving the ongoing tale of your most recent banjo find's restoration.

It's going to be a great piece.

Charlie

Edited by - CEParagon124 on 10/02/2014 07:49:02

jun3machina - Posted - 10/03/2014:  08:26:38

^i think i at have to order online...I ran into the same problem trying to find a palm socket wrench too.

Yesterday I removed all the nuts/ jhooks...cleaned them with some bar keepers friend. I then took off the screws holding on the aluminum ring and flange, washed the grime off that...this one was different than my bacon because I had to take the neck off in order to get in and take the head off. The fretboard was hanging over the top of the head by almost a 1/4-1/2"....

After cleaning those parts and setting aside, I tackled the head...the ring underneath has tarnish which I couldn't really get off without taking the ring off of the wood pot, and I didn't feel comfortable doing that so I scrubbed with a damp towel, removed what I could, and cleaned inbetween all the shoes with a damp towel and many qtips...

jun3machina - Posted - 10/03/2014:  09:20:26

here's pictures from yesterday

jun3machina - Posted - 10/03/2014:  09:24:45

my two main questions here are how far the top metal ring should be before applying jhooks ....im wondering if it should be flush with the edge of the skin head...and also, when reattaching the neck, should the fret board be a flush fit with the top of the exterior most metal rim? im reading up and there's various info in regards to being flush or having a space...the tone ring should have a gap, even if miniscule?

jun3machina - Posted - 10/03/2014:  09:28:43

i highlighted the area i was am asking about here:

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 10/03/2014:  13:01:32

That obviously is the old head, which had been pulled down over the years to the point of being too low. You don't need or want that much clearance between the head and the fretboard. Just so long as the two don't touch, you'll be okay, and will have plenty of room to tighten the head later if need be.



As far as placing the hooks, put them on long before the ring (tension hoop) is flush with the head. Otherwise, you'll most likely end up pulling it down too far and it might bottom out in the clearance notch in the neck. I generally shoot for a final product that has the rim slightly above the head, maybe 1/16-1/8." other might suggest different measurements, because the result (provided the strings clear the tension hoop) is visual and visual tastes differ. You'll have to get a feel for the whole thing to obtain that final result. If the tension hoop seems to be pulling down too much or not enough, sometimes you can pull the tension hoop, re-wet the skin, and stretch things one way or the other. If you're way off you'll probably have to start over. I never trim the head until I'm sure of what the final result will be, just in case I do have to re-do everything.

Edited by - G Edward Porgie on 10/03/2014 13:07:56

jun3machina - Posted - 10/03/2014:  13:36:22

G Edward porgie- thank you! That was a wonderful description...I started second guessing myself a bit... But I think I did OK :)

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 10/03/2014:  20:34:07

Judging by you photos, you are doing just fine. Some people just tend to worry too much. I consider that a sign of a good craftsman, someone who really cares about doing the job right.

jun3machina - Posted - 10/04/2014:  08:19:58

much appreciation is to be had to everyone who has chimed in on this thread. this site is such a wealth of knowledge.

I got her strung up, the sound is incredibly different than any other banjo i have owned yet. I've had a busted vega tenor N, a low end 50's model, ss stewart american princess, and a bacon and played my lil brothers japanese model. This one...well, it's so true to the inlays on the neck, is all i can say. rings like a bell, it chimes, very loud, even with no resonator on it. you can feel the sound all the way into the neck... I removed the flange and will store it in the case...maybe try to find an appropriate resonator for it in the future.

kinda waiting for things to settle out on it, might tighten the head up just a bit more... I really think it's glad to have been rescued out of the trash...i was telling my mom, i really wonder how long it's been sitting somewhere discarded and unplayed. it's such a shame. It really saddens me to think this could have went to the dump, and never seen the light of day again. it's a part of history, a beautiful piece of art...quality...craftsmanship. so many dont appreciate those things these days. I feel very fortunate to have been able to stumble across it, and it's going to bring a lot of joy to me to play on...

thank you soo much for all the help in answering my questions, as trivial as some may have been. i really do appreciate it.

KLR - Posted - 10/04/2014:  12:43:29

Believe it or not, from what I gather from the jazz players on this forum Paramounts are actually a bit under-powered for their needs.  I've played a Style C plectrum and its output was positively withering.  But yeah, you have banjos and you have banjos; I have to have a few decibels to be happy anymore, plus "twang," which, to paraphrase something which has been said about various things (literary genres etc), is what I mean when I hear it.  It definitely involves a good tone ring, to start, and it ain't quiet!  

I bought a set of those deep well sockets from Harbor Freight for something like $10.  I attach a 1/4" extension and grip that with a needle nose vice grips.  Works great.  Most of the sockets I don't need of course so I keep the 3 I'm always using in a drawer along with spare bridges etc.

TenorFiend - Posted - 10/04/2014:  18:59:27

I'm glad you've breathed new life into your "B". I've also gathered that many don't consider Paramount tenors loud enough for jazz work. Couldn't prove it by me; I have a Leader model that's an absolute cannon. Please post some pics of your rescue now that she's cleaned up, playable, and ready for her closeup, Mr. DeMille.

Tom

davidwigal - Posted - 10/04/2014:  19:14:24

Good for you Ms. 3Machina! And thank you for sharing your experiences with us; this has been a really great thread.

I too am eager to see some nice photos of you finished product, and maybe a sound-clip would really be cool.

Catch you on the "B" side, (sorry about that but I just couldn't help myself) 

jun3machina - Posted - 10/04/2014:  20:10:47

I will try to get some up tomorrow and I'll look into how to post a sound clip for sure. Seeing how well the tuners stay in tune today.

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 10/05/2014:  06:20:07

Your tuners I would guess are okay even if the banjo is out of tune later today. Remember, the head is new and probably still stretching, and so, I assume, are the strings. Even after fully breaking in, tension on a skin head can also change due to humidity variations, and that will also affect the tuning.

Rick Turner - Posted - 10/05/2014:  11:55:26

We've had some success reviving old "patent" friction tuners with new "home-made" leather washers for both banjos and ukes. The alternative is the small bushing (7 mm) ABM planetary tuners that Bob Smakula sells. You'll have to open up the holes in the peghead a little bit, but not by so much that it couldn't be returned to original fairly easily. If the banjo is to be a real player, that might be the way to go.

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 10/05/2014:  14:47:02

If you do find slippage, try first tightening the screws. If the tuners bind, try the washers suggested by Rick. Or do both.

One thing I've found in a couple of instances is that a tuner has been bumped and the shaft bent. This will cause binding in the hole in the peghead. I've successfully straightened them, but it's tricky and requires patients galore to get them right. A severe bend will require replacement. If that's the case, particularly if it's more than one tuner, then it's probably time to replace all four, and geared tuners would be a decided improvement. It's not a big no-no on a Paramount. Paramounts after about 1922 had Page tuners which, due to the pot metal used, tended to fall apart and needed to be replaced, anyway. At least when replacing old friction tuners, you don't have the unsightly holes left behind when those old Pages were replaced.

One other option, if you can find them, are the later Page "E" model tuners, which Paramount used on their final products. They are a geared tuner, don't fall apart, and have shafts about 1/4 inch, which should fit the peghead without modification. I think Mr. Smakula's tuners would be far less expensive and certainly easier to locate, though. You'd just have to use a reamer on the holes (drills can chip things badly). Either tuner might offend purists, but you want a playable instrument, not something to please those who'd probably reject a Silver Bell Ne Plus Ultra if it didn't have the original strings.

But unless there's a major problem right away, I'd wait until the head is broken in (probably in about two weeks) before I'd make any tuner decisions.

davidwigal - Posted - 10/05/2014:  19:36:50

Wow George, out of curiosity I Googled "B&D Silver Bell Ne Plus Ultra"; what a super-beautiful, but kind of gaudy, instrument. I think that even Liberace would be underdressed when playing one of those. 

TenorFiend - Posted - 10/05/2014:  20:42:04

Lange actually employed two versions of the Page "figure eight" tuners. The earlier version (through about 1925) had a machined brass housing with two mounting tabs on one side of the tuner. Interestingly, these were far superior to the later version with the cast pot metal housing and mounting tabs on either side. As Mr. Porgie said, the latter are famous for disintegrating. Replacement housings are available, however. The nice thing about the Pages is that there are no washers and nuts on the peghead face.

Tom

jun3machina - Posted - 10/05/2014:  21:00:45

these are the page "E"'s? you have to scroll down just a bit
billcampbanjos.com/PROD15.htm

TenorFiend - Posted - 10/05/2014:  21:28:56

Yes. He also has the high quality early Page tuners (pricey!) further down the page. He also has the replacement cast housings for later Page "figure eights", and Tom Camp is good to do business with.

John Field - Posted - 10/06/2014:  00:30:55

I agree with all the Page tuner details described. My Paramount style A tenor had the remains of the pot metal figure 8 Pages when I bought the banjo (as a basket case/ box of parts) about 20 years back. I managed to source two replacement brass housings from the late Russ Presting in California. That gave me two working tuners without drilling the peghead holes. I then found two Page "E" style tuners. These fitted exactly, and the single screw on the E lug aligned with one of the original figure 8 screw holes....and the peghead didn't need drilling. I thus had a working Paramount (after heel repairs etc. etc) with Page E's and Page figure 8's installed. The banjo remains in this configuration today and works 100%.

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 10/06/2014:  08:50:36

A few more comments. First, I used the wrong form of "patience" in my earlier comment. Patients, of course, are those poor souls who need loads of the other kind while waiting hours to see the doctor.

Second, although the upper housing for the Page pot metal jobs are available, the bottom part isn't, as far as I know. I've seen photos of these bottom parts that were also disintegrating.

Third, I agree with David on his assessment of the Ne Plus Ultra as being "kind of gaudy." It's one banjo that makes me kind of glad I don't have the purchase price for. If I did have that kind of money, I'd rather spend it on a slew of flamboyant women than on one flamboyant banjo.

Four, Jun3, please let us all know what you decide on your tuners. I hope you wait to make a true assessment of your old ones. I've never found any real problems with friction tuners, myself, once they are properly set up, and being able to keep the oldies will also keep your banjo as it was built and save you a big piece of change. You will undoubtedly need a big piece of change if you ever find the proper resonator for sale somewhere.

Rick Turner - Posted - 10/06/2014:  12:23:51

OK, Paramount fans.   I've had a rosewood Paramount pot with non-engraved metal parts and the absolute wrong (though beautiful) resonator for decades.  It doesn't seem to line up with either Leader nor F descriptions.   What model might it be?  I got this sometime in the early 1960s at the Folklore Center in New York from Marc Silber and never got around to doing anything with it.   Obviously I should make a rosewood + laminates neck for it, and it might as well be a five string, and I could just take off the flange until I find or make a proper resonator for it...which could be another 50 years!  But I could certainly make a neck.

Rick Turner - Posted - 10/06/2014:  12:24:17

OH, gold plated metal parts, no engraving...

davidwigal - Posted - 10/06/2014:  12:39:06

Maybe you should really do it up with rhinestones and such like the Ne Plus Ultra 

Rick Turner - Posted - 10/06/2014:  16:17:56

Well, Greg Rich is an old friend, and I have been slicing glitter and Christmas tree binding for him!
I think the pot is from a "Leader", but want to confirm with those who know better than I do.

CEParagon124 - Posted - 10/06/2014:  17:18:50

This is just a shot-in-the-dark.

This resonator is up for auction on Ebay along with a large group of other parts, necks, etc.

There is zero description of the items.

Does this look anything like the resonator Jun3 needs to complete her Paramount project?

Charlie Noyes

Edited by - CEParagon124 on 10/06/2014 17:20:17

jun3machina - Posted - 10/06/2014:  17:24:35

Ooh dang...that's purty

CEParagon124 - Posted - 10/06/2014:  17:45:18

Here is a link to the auction.

The sellers have provided a phone number so one can call and receive a detailed, item in-hand description.

I have no idea if they would be willing to sell the item outside of Ebay.

The other items are quite disparate in quality and utility.

ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-Vintage-Ba...9f4bd1a75

The chances of this being consistent with your Paramount are very, very remote.

It was just a thought.

Charlie Noyes

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 10/06/2014:  18:22:51

The pictured resonator is definitely not for a Paramount "B." It appears to be too deep, for one thing, and it's mahogany, which Jun#machina's banjo is not. I'd also be willing to bet that the decoration, though pretty, is most likely a decal. Lots of less expensive banjo brands used decals instead of actual marquetry.

I don't know what else that particular ebay seller has. That particular listing crashed my internet service.